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I lost the only friend I had, and pretty much ruined her hopes and dreams in the process. She says it's not healthy for her to talk to me anymore. I believe her, too... seeing how I've only really serve to make her angry even when I intend not to.

I'm not going to go into details... It's a messy situation all around. But I'm having a really hard time living with myself right now. I'm having to resort to taking minor herbal sedatives to keep myself from bawling all the time.

I don't have the money to go out and do anything or buy anything beyond basic necessities. I got in a car accident because I was so distraught I wasn't paying enough attention. All I can do is sit in my apartment and pass the evenings between work by trying to find something vaguely entertaining to pass the time.

It helps to just type everything out, and I have no idea why. I don't even have a question to ask, here. I just feel like a complete piece of shit. Things weren't supposed to be this way... I was supposed to be helping fix things. I wasn't supposed to be ruining everything in her life. I don't know what the hell I did wrong...

This is a damn good place to vent Solil, I do it every so often myself. Any chance you might talk about the situation that caused this?

Vent all you like, it's good for you. To second what Shego said, if you want to talk about what happened, it can help to not only sort through it by talking about it, but can also add perspective from other people's point of view.

I propose you post an anonymous thread on the situation and we'll do our best to advise you and pretend you're someone else.

Venting is good.

Eh, I might as well just post as is.

The thing is.. I know where things went wrong. I know exactly where things went wrong. I just don't know whether it was preventable... And I don't know whether there's any way to fix it.

The friend in question is a trauma survivor. A stepfather of hers verbally, physically, and sexually abused her for half a decade starting when she was five. Her mom swears she didn't know but given the circumstances and the severity of the abuse there's no way that was feasibly possible.

The woman was involved in a toxic, emotionally-abusive relationship that had her desperately seeking out some sort of emotional comfort -- which she eventually found in me. She also wants to be a doctor, and was well on her way to succeeding at that. She's an extremely intelligent woman.

The woman wouldn't leave the man on her own... and though I tried to prod her to do so, I also tried to keep my distance romantically since I knew that relationships that start that way tend to end catastrophically. I have to admit that I was extremely interested, but I didn't want her to make the foolish choice to leave him for somebody else, so I did my best to make it seem like I had no romantic interest whatsoever (according to what she eventually said later, I succeeded, and she was absolutely certain at the time that I wasn't interested).

It eventually became clear that she didn't believe that she was worth anything, and thought she was lucky to have someone like her emotionally-abusive boyfriend, who had become her fiance at the time. She also kind of idealized me, as though I were some kind of perfect guy out of reach.

Eventually she confronted me head on with the fact that she had strong feelings for me -- and I didn't know what to say. My initial reaction was to say that we probably shouldn't talk if that's the case, since she was clearly committed to her fiance.

The aftermath made it clear to me that she was devastated. And I realized that she viewed this as another of a string of abandonment in her life, starting all the way back to her biological father who left her mom because she refused to raise her children in a house filled with drugs everywhere -- this dad now lives *somewhere* in Texas but never has any sort of permanent address so he can avoid paying the thousands and thousands of dollars in child support he owes.

Seeing this, I decided the best course of action was to take the opposite approach, admit my feelings for her, and try to make things work out.

Initially, she was happier emotionally, but she was struggling in school because of her own personal struggles with the ethical iffiness of the situation.

Eventually she decided to leave him for me. This required a move on her part, which was a big step for her.

She was emotionally distraught and distant during the move, which in turn caused me to be emotionally removed from the situation, which in turn make her worried that I was abandoning her emotionally. I started making little mistakes while moving, which she (in her distraught state), felt the need to point out and criticize in a harsh way that made me ill at ease and more prone to making bigger mistakes, which she also felt needed to be pointed out, and... well, you get the idea.

I hoped that this would come to an end when the move was over, but she kept pointing out mistakes even afterwards. Eventually we got into an argument about it, and I don't even everything that was said, but... I eventually snapped in a self-abusive way, and she freaked out.

We kept talking for a while, but at least once a day she would find something new to tell me I was doing wrong, and would would say how she felt like she was tricked into leaving her man for something that she thought was better than it was. The constant criticism would always tear away at me... and I wasn't able to emotionally be as close to her as I had been. She started feeling abandoned as a result (and I should add that as a result of her leaving the fiance, her parents and sister stopped talking to her), and she would frequently let me know this. But whenever I mentioned how the criticism was making it difficult to be close to her, she would get angry that I was "blaming her" for the situation.

It didn't help that I recently got promoted to a managerial position that was stressing me out and occasionally required me to stay late to work while we looked for a replacement for my old position.

Eventually she made it clear that we were no longer in a relationship, and she had me cancel our plans to go out to eat on valentines day so that she could study.

Like an idiot, I completely left her alone on valentines day so that she could get more done -- she said later that she "had faith" that I would make it a day worth remembering for her. Instead she was alone with no one even talking to her.

She doesn't even talk to me anymore. She says it's not healthy for her to talk to me -- she's been seeing a therapist for a while now, and so I believe her. Her grades are down the toilet, everyone else in her life has abandoned her, she's in a really bad financial situation, and I'm at fault.

I'm also hopped up on three glasses of Valerian Root Tea and some Passion Flower -- both herbs with anti-anxiety properties -- just to keep myself from bawling my eyes out all night. I don't know what there is to do to help her... I don't think I'm capable of doing anything but hurt her anymore. My very presence that upsets her with the knowledge that I am the cause of most of her problems in life.

If you'll excuse me, I need to get myself a fourth cup of tea.

It's late and I don't have the time to post a lengthy retort but I will say a few quick things.

- The blame game needs to stop. NOW! "She blames me... X" "I blame her for X". This is never productive.

- Calmness always prevails. If you allow yourself to fully be engrossed by drama then you're doing it wrong. Take a step back, take notes and come back when you're calm and collected. If the other person cannot be calm and collected. Take a break, talk about the issue with them later, when they are calm. Screaming at eachother, arguing or whatever... while playing the blame game never ever helps... crying about it won't change a thing about it neither. BE COOL.

- Communication is important. "She was distant because she felt I was distant." "She wanted to be alone for Valentine's day, so I left her alone and now she is upset about it". What the fuck, seriously? I'm not judging YOU or HER but damn... I face palmed a few times. You guys need to talk, calmly and see how things work out.

I find it very intriguing and off-putting that she no longer speaks to her family. Are they truly aware on how she feels about things and how she felt with her fiancee? What kind of parent stops talking to their child over the sake of them finding someone else? Also, I feel you may have been white knighted by her. Be mindful of that.

Anyways, I'll reply in proper form sometime tomorrow. In the meantime, when was the last time you slept? Go sleep. Fuck tea.

You can't blame yourself for all the emotional issues that she's going through. Sure, you were trying to do what was best for her, but she was in no place at all to jump from one serious relationship to another. It sounds like she to do a lot of self-reflection and healing, otherwise she's going to keep these mistakes. I'm not referring to you as a mistake, I just mean how she's reacting to all these situations.

Basically, she expected you to do a lot more than you were capable of doing. She likely had far too high expectations, in fact, that could never be met.

It's cliche as all hell to say in these parts of the forums, but she needs therapy. Big time.

For you, I really don't know what to say. As I said, she expected you to be something you just couldn't possibly fulfill. You can't blame yourself for all of it. She's got a lot - and I mean a truckload - of issues that it doesn't sound like she's ever worked out. You're not the cause of most of her problems. You got her out of an abusive relationship. In the long run, that is likely the best thing to happen for her out of this whole mess.

It's...a really sticky situation, honestly. But don't beat yourself up. It sounds like there's a lot more going on with her that to put all the blame on yourself is just unrealistic.
Added at: 00:07
I should also add: I wouldn't try communicating with her at all right now. Truth be told, distance from each other might do both of you a lot more good than the harm of attempting to talk. Everything's just too volatile right now. Trust me, that's speaking from experience - albeit not nearly as molten-lava heated as this, but still.

Jay said:

It's late and I don't have the time to post a lengthy retort but I will say a few quick things.

- The blame game needs to stop. NOW! "She blames me... X" "I blame her for X". This is never productive.

- Calmness always prevails. If you allow yourself to fully be engrossed by drama then you're doing it wrong. Take a step back, take notes and come back when you're calm and collected. If the other person cannot be calm and collected. Take a break, talk about the issue with them later, when they are calm. Screaming at eachother, arguing or whatever... while playing the blame game never ever helps... crying about it won't change a thing about it neither. BE COOL.

- Communication is important. "She was distant because she felt I was distant." "She wanted to be alone for Valentine's day, so I left her alone and now she is upset about it". What the fuck, seriously? I'm not judging YOU or HER but damn... I face palmed a few times. You guys need to talk, calmly and see how things work out.

I find it very intriguing and off-putting that she no longer speaks to her family. Are they truly aware on how she feels about things and how she felt with her fiancee? What kind of parent stops talking to their child over the sake of them finding someone else? Also, I feel you may have been white knighted by her. Be mindful of that.

Anyways, I'll reply in proper form sometime tomorrow. In the meantime, when was the last time you slept? Go sleep. Fuck tea.

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It's a little too late for any more talking now, for the time being... but yeah, you're right that I should sleep. Luckily that tea doesn't have any caffeine.

Man, this is a shitty situation, but I'm with Jay and TNG, this is not your fault. You are not solely to blame for her being where she is emotionally, academically, and financially. There was failure to communicate on both of your parts, with Valentine's Day being a big indicator of that. First she told you that she needed to cancel plans so she'd have more time to study, so you let her study, then she was upset that you didn't spend any time with her, and now you feel guilty because she was all alone on Valentine's Day. Now she won't talk to you at all, because she says it's not healthy for her to talk to you, and you're going along with it because she's in therapy so you trust that her therapist is in agreement with her that talking to you isn't healthy. Obviously her therapist can't divulge to you whether he or she is in agreement (doctor patient confidentiality), but again (and I'm not judging either of you) you're passively reacting to something she said, and it's eating you up inside - to the point that you wrecked your car and are downing anti-anxiety herbals like they're going out of style. If there's not already mint in that valerian root tea, add some in. It helps with the calming aspect and it helps cover up the shitty taste of the valerian root.

There are two ways to look at pretty much every situation in life. One way is to figure out who's to blame for a situation, and then blame them. It doesn't really accomplish much aside from putting blame on someone and then washing your hands of it (and making people feel shitty). The other way to look at something is:

1. Figure out what went wrong.
2. Figure out how to correct the immediate effects of what went wrong.
3. Figure out how to prevent what went wrong from going wrong again.
4. Figure out whose responsibility it was to ensure that what went wrong didn't go wrong.
5. Re-educate the person whose responsibility it was so they don't make the same mistake in the future.

This way you can actually accomplish something, usually several things. Now, relationships aren't computer problems or engineering exercises. You can't "fix" them like you fix a car or fix a recursive loop. But, you can objectively (as objectively as possible) figure out what went wrong (in this case, I'd say the big thing is that you both failed to communicate with each other clearly). How can you fix what went wrong? You can strive to communicate more clearly in the future. How can prevent this from happening again? When either of you starts to feel like you might be having problems communicating, you stop what you're doing, you get the other person in the same place or on the phone, and you express your concern that communication is failing. Whose responsibility was it to prevent this from happening? Both of you were responsible, because you're both adults and you were both involved in the relationship.

If you want to continue this relationship, or at least continue to be friends with her, it's up to you to communicate with her. I would honestly consider writing her a letter that explains how you feel in as calm a manner as possible. Mail her the letter. This way she can decide whether or not she wants to read the letter, she can read it at her own pace, she can take the letter with her to her therapist, the two of them can discuss it. You may never hear back from her. She might call you or email you or whatever a few months from now, or a few hours after getting the letter. This may be what it takes to strengthen your friendship and/or relationship with this woman, and it may be what you need to make future relationships with other women better.

But you cannot continue to blame the both of you (or either of you) for what happened. Blaming will not help. You are not the root of all of her problems. You did not abuse her as a child. There was no way for you to prevent the abuse, and the responsibility for healing the damage that the abuse caused was not all on you. Believe me when I say that this is meant in as supportive and understanding manner possible - you cannot white knight all of her cares away, because this is what happens when you try. Invariably, some portion of your support fails, everything starts to crumble, and you both wind up being emotional wrecks for a good long while. I hung my armor up several years ago, but not until after I went through what you're going through many, many times over. And even though I've hung up my armor, I still catch myself sometimes mid-re-armoring and have to remind myself that this way leads to disaster.

As far as your current state... if you can take a couple days off work, or even if you can just make it to the weekend, I'd strongly suggest making two days be all about you. Day one, stop drinking the tea. Listen to incredibly sad music. Watch chick flicks. Cry until you've cried yourself dry. Bawl your eyes out. Make horrible crying noises. Eat a pint of chocolate ice cream. Day two, wake up early. Enjoy a cup of your caffeine of choice. Have a nice breakfast. Go outside and enjoy nature if that's possible. If not, just devote the day to caring about you and doing things that you enjoy. Day three, you'll feel a little better.

Soliloquy said:

Eventually she made it clear that we were no longer in a relationship, and she had me cancel our plans to go out to eat on valentines day so that she could study.

Like an idiot, I completely left her alone on valentines day so that she could get more done -- she said later that she "had faith" that I would make it a day worth remembering for her. Instead she was alone with no one even talking to her.

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I take issue with this part. SHE said you two were no longer an item. SHE told you to cancel plans. YOU obeyed her wishes and left her alone. Then she had the audacity to say that she expected some grand gesture?! No. Fuck everything about that.

Let's just say you had done something.

You two would go out, have a wonderful evening, forget your troubles for a day and then that would be used somehow as ammo against you and you'd still be in the exact same place you are now. You are not at fault for any aspect in that situation.

I'll spoil the rest of my advice because it's unsolicited and if you don't want to read it that's your choice.

Yeah, I agree with Phil. If it wasn't this, it would have been something else. You describe a pattern on her part of constantly tearing you down; that's probably no coincidence. Given that she was abused and has self-esteem problems, it wouldn't be surprising if she has developed self-destructive tendencies. She pushed at you until you snapped; congratulations, now it's all your fault.

It sucks all around, and I feel for you, but you can't take a broken person out of a fucked up relationship and expect them to all of a sudden act normally.

I need some help figuring out what to do. I'll answer any questions to clarify things. I just need to know how to make things right.

Here's a string of text messages we had. She says she explained everything to me...

Wow.

Could you... expand on that?

Wow, ok, she is goddamn hostile. She's projecting EVERYTHING on you. She's blaming you for everything, either so she doesn't have to accept any responsibility herself, or some fucked up manipulation strategy because she knows you'll grovel... Or something, I don't even know.

My serious advice is to gtfo. Eject from this plane crash.

Pardon my language, but holy fucking Christ, this girl needs help. She takes so many things that you say and spins them in such a negative way that it's like she's having a completely different conversation. There's so many cognitive distortions in her statements that I'm surprised they don't make her head explode. She constantly berates and blames you for everything. No wonder you've got it in your head that it's your fault.

She's got a LOT of baggage that she's holding onto and it's making her extremely volatile in every possible way.
Added at: 11:57
Also, I can't imagine this person is seeing a therapist. If she is, she can't be taking much of the advice to heart.

To be honest man, I think by this point you just need to let her go. I understand you care for her, but she seems very angry. She blames you, you somewhat blame her, you blame yourself, and the more you blame yourself the more she thinks you are just trying to make yourself be the "victim", making her even more angry about it. The relationship has seemed to reach a level of toxicity that I don't know if it can be salvaged. I hate to say it, but it's how I see the situation.

Sadly, relationships are not always something you can fix. Sometimes the act of trying to fix it only makes the damage grow, and to me, it seems like this is a situation that is going to get worst before it gets better.

I wish I could give better advice.

Look, I know she needs help. She's getting help, even. But if there's one thing I know about her, it's that she's genuine. She genuinely sees me as being selfish and not caring, and I need to figure out how to get around that. I appreciate your advice on getting out, but that's not really what's important to me. What's important to me is that I'm able to help her in some way...

Here's the thing... her entire life, everyone she knows has backstabbed her and put themselves in front of her, including her own mom, who allowed the blatant abuse to continue for five years and who refuses to even sign her FAFSA so that she can get a federally-approved student loan... she's had to take out a private loan instead. this is a mom who, after the abuse was over and she was finally recovering, forced her to leave the friend, boyfriend, and the family she was closest to (her grandma and grandpa) to move to another state for her new boyfriend's hairbrained business idea that failed within months. She had a best friend in this new town who she was supposed to live with after leaving her fiance, and her best friend flaked out on her and forced her to leave so that the friend could live with her boyfriend of one month -- a boyfriend the friend broke up with a week later. She has a sister who came into town while the breakup was going on, but the sister only saw her once during the month that she was here because the sister kept going out with three different guys who she was trying to decide between.

So I can completely understand why she's on the lookout for a betrayal. I understand why she assumes people will put themselves before her. She wasn't like this before everything started happening with the breakup.

I need to find a way to let her know that I'm not like that. That I'm not out to betray her like everyone else. I don't care if I get back together with her, even -- I just want to be able to help. And I need to figure out the best way to do that. There's hints in there, somewhere, that can lead me to what I need to do and say... I just don't know what.

I still say the best thing for you both is to gtfo. She's creating a fantasy world around herself where she doesn't have to accept any responsibility, where everything is someone else's fault, and you're falling into it. Her hostility feeds your self doubt, and you in turn give her a target to continue her delusions. It's a toxic, poisonous relationship.

GTFO.

You're not going to like hearing this... but I highly doubt you can help her. She is twisting everything you say so badly that it is extremely unlikely that anything you are able to do or say to her will change her mind in the slightest. Nick seems right on with his statement about cognitive distortions. You simply can't reason with people like that.

I'm not saying this to be a dick either... I sympathize with your situation (I had two exes with some similar traits and I wanted to help them through their problems) but you can't save everybody no matter how badly you may want to.

Regardless... I wish you the best in this delicate matter. Just don't lose sight of who you are and don't sacrifice yourself for a lost cause either.

What's important to me is that I'm able to help her in some way...

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Help her by being there when she needs to you, otherwise back off and don't try to fix anything on your own. Do not attempt to put some of her own burden on your shoulders, because not only will you make yourself stress out, but you will make her further stressed because she thinks you are trying to take her own hardships and, like she implied, make it about you. Even though that is not your intention, it will be what she sees, and changing that won't happen outside of psychically implanting your intentions in her mind.

The best thing you can do is just let it go. Don't let HER go, but let IT go. Let go of the relationship, let go off the fact she has hardships and issues, move on and let her calm in her own life at her own pace. If she needs support, she will call you, and when she does, don't be down, don't blame yourself for the past, don't even mention the past. Keep focused on the future and what it means for her.

Best case in this, you will recover her as a friend. Worst case, you will have to cut off all contact with her and wait out the pain. Do NOT let her string you on with this if she keeps bringing it up.

If there is one thing I know in life, and know how hard it is, it would be dwelling on past mistakes so much that they hurt your future. Don't let that happen, that is what is important.

It's a catch-22. The more she voices blame and negative perceptions, the more she will believe them. She is in a mindset where she can twist anything you say against you. It is probably not intentional, but she is trying to sort out her own frustration, anger, and other mixed feelings. Voicing them helps her sort these things out, I'm afraid to say. This puts you in a position where you are least able to help her right now, as you are the fixation of the feelings she is sorting out. Trying to help will help her, but it won't help you, and it probably won't reconnect you in any way. It will only help her in that she'll cut you out completely and then begin to feel better. About the only ting you can do right now is say, "Call me if you need me. Until then, try not to be too angry about an honest mistake."

She could kill a man and hand you the bloody knife, then blame you for his death and you'd take it.

She's fucked up and sinking fast. You can either let go and swim away or drown with her.

Honestly? There's nothing you can magically say that's going to make her see you any differently. It's as simple as that.

You say "How can I help you?" and she says "It's all about you isn't it?"then never tells you how you can help?

That's it. If she's not willing to accept your help there's nothing you can do beyond that. It's alot easier than you're making it out to be.

You're offering her help and she says you don't understand and she seems unwilling to explain outside of "You don't understand."

Holy fucking shit, you're dating Norris.

She needs someone to blame for her failures. You're it.

That's all it is, and all it ever was.

She's an *adult*. She's "fixing" things her own way. One of those ways is treating you as the latest thing that wrecked her life.

But, ultimately, she made the choices she did, and she acted the way she did, and she is fully responsible for herself.

She's an *adult*.

Treat her like one and take her words at face value. If she says one thing, don't assume she means something different. Don't assume she needs something different than what she's saying.

You can see from her string of past relationships that it's her, not you.

There's nothing you can do, and even if there were, she's asked you, told you, and tried to beat it into your head that she doesn't want you to do anything.

Take her for an adult. Move on. Accept that it wasn't your fault, and you are in no way responsible for her actions.

She's not a child. She can take care of herself.

And leave it at that. Don't contact her. Don't pine for her. Don't blame yourself.

When she needs something from you, you can be quite certain she'll guilt it out of you when she needs it. (and I hope you learn your lesson and refuse)

Also, you need to realize that either she turned you into a person that acts the way you're acting, or you were already that way to start with. This is not normal behavior. You need to consider your own health and relationships and change - and, as much fun as we make of it here, it may require professional help. She may or may not be seeing a therapist, and perhaps you may feel you don't need one, but it's quite obvious that you will benefit from one, if only to help put this particular disaster into perspective.

We can only offer limited suggestions based on limited information, but a good therapist will be able to offer specific help for the specific problems you are facing right now.

There's a 4 letter word that sprung to my mind when reading that, and it wasn't love.

You need to not be involved with her.

Frankie Williamson said:

There's a 4 letter word that sprung to my mind when reading that, and it wasn't love.

You need to not be involved with her.

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Was it like?
Added at: 10:53
In all seriousness Sol, how did you meet this friend? What prompted her move?

If I was to guess, it was an internet relationship that you've been sold a bill of goods for and you don't actually really know each other outside of a very structured framework that doesn't lend itself well to truth-telling. But that's a HUUUUGE leap and I'm more than happy to have egg on my face if I'm wrong.

ScytheRexx said:

Help her by being there when she needs to you, otherwise back off and don't try to fix anything on your own. Do not attempt to put some of her own burden on your shoulders, because not only will you make yourself stress out, but you will make her further stressed because she thinks you are trying to take her own hardships and, like she implied, make it about you. Even though that is not your intention, it will be what she sees, and changing that won't happen outside of psychically implanting your intentions in her mind.

The best thing you can do is just let it go. Don't let HER go, but let IT go. Let go of the relationship, let go off the fact she has hardships and issues, move on and let her calm in her own life at her own pace. If she needs support, she will call you, and when she does, don't be down, don't blame yourself for the past, don't even mention the past. Keep focused on the future and what it means for her.

Best case in this, you will recover her as a friend. Worst case, you will have to cut off all contact with her and wait out the pain. Do NOT let her string you on with this if she keeps bringing it up.

If there is one thing I know in life, and know how hard it is, it would be dwelling on past mistakes so much that they hurt your future. Don't let that happen, that is what is important.

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That sounds like good advice. She does tend to bring up what happened a lot, though. Do you have any advice on how to deal with that?

MindDetective said:

It's a catch-22. The more she voices blame and negative perceptions, the more she will believe them. She is in a mindset where she can twist anything you say against you. It is probably not intentional, but she is trying to sort out her own frustration, anger, and other mixed feelings. Voicing them helps her sort these things out, I'm afraid to say. This puts you in a position where you are least able to help her right now, as you are the fixation of the feelings she is sorting out. Trying to help will help her, but it won't help you, and it probably won't reconnect you in any way. It will only help her in that she'll cut you out completely and then begin to feel better. About the only ting you can do right now is say, "Call me if you need me. Until then, try not to be too angry about an honest mistake."

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That seems like sound advice as well... she definitely is frustrated, angry, etc. and I suppose it was a little presumptuous of me to assume I could fix those feelings for her. I don't want to seem like I'm ignoring her when she texts me, but if responding with assurances and explanations makes things worse, then I don't want to do that.

Adammon said:

Was it like?
Added at: 10:53
In all seriousness Sol, how did you meet this friend? What prompted her move?

If I was to guess, it was an internet relationship that you've been sold a bill of goods for and you don't actually really know each other outside of a very structured framework that doesn't lend itself well to truth-telling. But that's a HUUUUGE leap and I'm more than happy to have egg on my face if I'm wrong.

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Try an eight-year friendship beginning in high school and staying in contact throughout and after college, in which she was the first person to actually show any interest in who I am beneath the exterior and got me to open up and do more than sit aside awkwardly all day and never say a word to anyone. She's also the person who inspired me enough to get the job I am in and pushed me to go forward and get the promotion. The move was within the same city, but away from her Ex-Fiance.

Where are the eggs?

Soliloquy said:

Try an eight-year friendship beginning in high school and staying in contact throughout and after college, in which she was the first person to actually show any interest in who I am on the exterior and got me to open up and do more than sit aside awkwardly all day and never say a word to anyone. She's also the person who inspired me enough to get the job I am in and pushed me to go forward and get the promotion. The move was within the same city, but away from her Ex-Fiance.

Where are the eggs?

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Fuuuck, that's a lot of egg I deserve! Sorry, in today's dating environment, it just seemed so typical of a long distance relationship.
I don't know what to say dude, for someone who you've known and who has known you for such a long time, it seems like you're talking past each other.

stienman said:

You can see from her string of past relationships that it's her, not you.

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You mean her single relationship that she had been in for seven years and only considered leaving because of me? That string of past relationships?

Sorry, it's just... that was really presumptuous of you.

Soliloquy said:

You mean her single relationship that she had been in for seven years and only considered leaving because of me? That string of past relationships?

Sorry, it's just... that was really presumptuous of you.

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I think he 'relationships' in the more broad term of 'person-to-person' not 'penis-to-vagina'.

Adammon said:

Fuuuck, that's a lot of egg I deserve! Sorry, in today's dating environment, it just seemed so typical of a long distance relationship.
I don't know what to say dude, for someone who you've known and who has known you for such a long time, it seems like you're talking past each other.

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Question: does that mean it seems like I'm not understanding what she's saying as well? Because I really would like to know what I'm missing...

And we used to communicate so well... it's only since she moved away from the fiance that this started happening...

It's not your job to fix anything. She doesn't need to trust you. You said she's getting help, and that's awesome because now she has someone else to help her fix her problems. You're 100% off the hook. Walk away. Let her know that if she ever wants to talk or anything she knows how to contact you, then walk away. Don't call her. Don't initiate anything and more importantly don't get involved unless it's not going to be a blame game.

Soliloquy said:

Question: does that mean it seems like I'm not understanding what she's saying as well? Because I really would like to know what I'm missing...

And we used to communicate so well... it's only since she moved away from the fiance that this started happening...

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Based on the information you've given in this thread, I'd say you're eager to please and understand, have made some mistakes in the past that you're trying to move forward from and that she's just focussing on the negative because she's suffering a kind of buyer's remorse that is exaggerating everything well beyond it's intention.

That said, it's all one-sided so it's hard to grok exactly what's happening in the situation. The text message conversation seems to underscore that she's a little unstable and that she's 'given up a lot' to be with you and she's angry that you haven't given up anything; making it an 'easy situation' for you. My wife made a similar decision when she moved to Canada to live with me. If things aren't always roses and candy, it's hard to say to one's self "I made the right decision" but the reality is relationships aren't all roses and candy, and there's going to be ups and downs. If her life was, as you say, full of downs previously, she may have set unrealistic expectations for her relationship with you and that reality is now a big haddock-slap in the face.

Maybe approach your questions around her problem differently. Instead of "How can I help you?" try "How can we solve this together?"

She doesn't want to solve it "together" she wants him to fix it, but not tell him what or how to do it.

In her words "A REAL MAN WOULD FIGURE IT OUT FOR HIMSELF AND FIX IT WITHOUT ME TELLING HIM".

Basically she wants him to wave a magic wand and give her an entire career, or on a lesser note, put her through school and then help her find a job.

Soliloquy said:

You mean her single relationship that she had been in for seven years and only considered leaving because of me? That string of past relationships?

Sorry, it's just... that was really presumptuous of you.

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I don't think it's presumptuous at all:

"A stepfather of hers … abused her…"

"Her mom swears she didn't know…"

"she … thought she was lucky to have someone like her emotionally-abusive boyfriend…"

Please keep in mind that I'm not saying those relationships were her fault. I'm saying that they defined how she interacts with people she's close to.

Please re-read what you wrote here: http://halforums.com/xenforo/threads/im-having-a-goddamn-panic-attack-here.27245/#post-913966

Then think about it.

She is free.

For the first time in her life she's free of her past abusive relationships. She's not tied financially to another person. She doesn't have to listen to anyone else. She is finally taking steps on her own not only to get out of an engagement that was endangering her, but to break off the path that, from my perspective, she didn't want in the first place. She just couldn't see any other way out. Perhaps she did want that path, but not if it meant cowtowing to her benefactors and fiance.

Now, I could be way off base here, but from what you've written, exactly what you feared would happen happened - you tried to get her to break off without becoming romantic. She demanded that you step up to the plate and provide security enough for her to make this change, and you did. Then, as predicted it all blew up catastrophically.

She's not fixed - but the change that was made in her life was ultimately good. Not only that, but it happened just as you had predicted - it blew up.

The only way you could have prevented the blow up is by rejecting her. And she would now be stuck in a marriage that isn't good for her, and the only person who cheered for her freedom would, like all the others, have turned his back on her and said "no".

So suck it up. You did what you did to change her situation, and it's better now than it was before. End of story.

What happens next is up to her. She's a big girl now, and while she's still going to have significant problems, the fact that she took a step bodes well for her.

You played your part. Now exit stage left and get some help because it's obviously tearing you apart.

If you keep pestering her, she will stay away. If you leave her alone, there's a chance - perhaps small, but a chance nonetheless - that she will recognize that it wasn't your fault, that her life is better off, and that she misses having you as a friend. Don't harbor hopes of becoming romantically involved again, but it looks like you do want friendship again. If so, give her time and space. Months and years. Send her birthday cards (and don't add apologies, or questions - or anything that requires a response! Just "Thinking of you, hope you are well").

She is better off now than she was prior to your recent relationship with her. That's all.

That sounds like good advice. She does tend to bring up what happened a lot, though. Do you have any advice on how to deal with that?

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I really don't. The thing about people is they are complex creatures, and they can take our intentions so many different directions. You know her the best, so you will know what might flick the switches one direction or the other, so you have to figure out the best way to approach it and make sure she stops bringing it up.

stienman said:

I don't think it's presumptuous at all:

"A stepfather of hers … abused her…"

"Her mom swears she didn't know…"

"she … thought she was lucky to have someone like her emotionally-abusive boyfriend…"

Please keep in mind that I'm not saying those relationships were her fault. I'm saying that they defined how she interacts with people she's close to.

Please re-read what you wrote here: http://halforums.com/xenforo/threads/im-having-a-goddamn-panic-attack-here.27245/#post-913966

Then think about it.

She is free.

For the first time in her life she's free of her past abusive relationships. She's not tied financially to another person. She doesn't have to listen to anyone else. She is finally taking steps on her own not only to get out of an engagement that was endangering her, but to break off the path that, from my perspective, she didn't want in the first place. She just couldn't see any other way out. Perhaps she did want that path, but not if it meant cowtowing to her benefactors and fiance.

Now, I could be way off base here, but from what you've written, exactly what you feared would happen happened - you tried to get her to break off without becoming romantic. She demanded that you step up to the plate and provide security enough for her to make this change, and you did. Then, as predicted it all blew up catastrophically.

She's not fixed - but the change that was made in her life was ultimately good. Not only that, but it happened just as you had predicted - it blew up.

The only way you could have prevented the blow up is by rejecting her. And she would now be stuck in a marriage that isn't good for her, and the only person who cheered for her freedom would, like all the others, have turned his back on her and said "no".

So suck it up. You did what you did to change her situation, and it's better now than it was before. End of story.

What happens next is up to her. She's a big girl now, and while she's still going to have significant problems, the fact that she took a step bodes well for her.

You played your part. Now exit stage left and get some help because it's obviously tearing you apart.

If you keep pestering her, she will stay away. If you leave her alone, there's a chance - perhaps small, but a chance nonetheless - that she will recognize that it wasn't your fault, that her life is better off, and that she misses having you as a friend. Don't harbor hopes of becoming romantically involved again, but it looks like you do want friendship again. If so, give her time and space. Months and years. Send her birthday cards (and don't add apologies, or questions - or anything that requires a response! Just "Thinking of you, hope you are well").

She is better off now than she was prior to your recent relationship with her. That's all.

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Ah... I thought what you meant was along the lines of "she's screwed up her past relationships in the same way," but that way makes a lot more sense. The entire context of all of the relationships in her life have been horrible, and it's through that context that she's seeing my actions.

The thing is... she's contacted me on her own a few times, but they always seem to end up the same way, assuming they don't start out that way to begin with. What I know about her from my eight years of knowing her is that she's trying to reach out and find some comfort and reassurance... but when I try to give her that, it gets interpreted as me trying to make it about me.

And, well... I do use phrases like "I know I did such and such" or "I was trying to this and that..." and "I want to help with so and so" but now that I think about it, that's not how I used to talk to her to comfort her when she was upset.

What I used to do was tell her all the great things I knew about her, and all the things she was capable of and how great she is at so many things... which she is. I stopped that during the move... and I responded to all the things she said defensively -- about "me," I suppose. When that's not what she needed. That's not the me she knew and fell in love with.

Perhaps how I need to respond when she texts me is in the affirmative about *her* rather than in the defensive about *me* or the hopeful about *us*.

It falls in line with a lot of the things she said, actually. She said she needed support and I didn't give it to her... and she tends to act like I don't know any of the good stuff about her.

But I don't want to push her away... and I don't want to say something when my input isn't welcome. But when she does text me... I might try that out.

I think you've got something there. Ignore anything she says about you, and focus on encouraging her and building her up.

Also, consider that she doesn't always tell you about a problem because she wants you to fix it - she just wants to talk about it.

More, "I know things are rough, but you'll pull through - you're strong and capable" and "Aw, that must really be disappointing..." and less "I'm sorry...", "What can I do?", and "Maybe if you...."

Either way, dude, you have to stop blaming yourself regardless of what she says. This is not fun, but it shouldn't make you dissolve into a puddle more than a few times after the initial event.

Also, and this might be out on a limb, consider sharing your problems and happenings with her when she contacts you. Make sure they aren't in any way related to your relationship or the aftermath - irrelevant work problems, etc. While she's looking for support, she is also looking to feel valued and probably a little bit as the friend she used to be to you. Share those things that won't set her off. Rarely, of course - make sure she doesn't feel like you're dumping on her when she wanted to talk - don't want to be clingy or needy - just shooting the breeze.

Some people like to talk with friends to take their minds off other things, so while she may just come at you with problems, share jokes, or videos, or whatever you used to share to make her laugh.

That's cause you were an outlet... now you're the source.

Jay said:

That's cause you were an outlet... now you're the source.

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That does make it more difficult to respond in the same way, but I should be able to figure out a way to make it work.

Be prepared for disappointment.

MindDetective said:

Be prepared for disappointment.

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Eh, maybe. Worth a try, though.

Also, we're here to be your support system for anything you need.

Except sexy times.

But I like sexy times

Soliloquy said:

But I like sexy times

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Adammon said:

Except sexy times.

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Aw, really? Damn, I need to cancel my plane ticket to see Jay, then.

ThatNickGuy said:

Aw, really? Damn, I need to cancel my plane ticket to see Jay, then.

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He may have just been talking about me specifically. I do have that musky "stuck in the rain 24/7" smell.

Moral of the story folks. Don't date crazy bitches.



Let her go man. It's hard. But it's for the best.

Yeah, that reminds me of something Joe Rogan said. He said something to effect of I used to love crazy bitches until my friend was murder suicided by one (referring to Phil Hartman).

The only piece of advice I can remember my father ever giving me regarding dating:
Never sleep with a woman crazier than you.

Well, call me a fool for not taking the direct advice to leave her alone... but I kept going through the texts (which I've now removed) and became transfixed with two sentences among the 1,038 word rant...

In the fourth text she said:

You have no idea what I've been going through these last few weeks, let alone two months.

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In the seventh text she said:

And EVEN NOW you refuse to see what I'm going through and you haven't asked.

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I knew that there was something regarding what she was upset about because of how she said:

In the third-to-last text she said:

You didn't even read it or LISTEN again I'm sure.

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And the thing is... I hadn't asked how she was doing, really. I figured she was telling me everything in all of her texts the past few months. And I didn't want to make things worse by continuing to not ask, so I sent the following message to her:

I said:

How are you doing, [NAME]? You were right that I never asked what you're going through... and I should have from the beginning. What are you going through?

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She wasn't happy, of course... and I didn't expect her to be. I downed a nice mixture of Kava Kava extract, Valerian, peppermint, Passionflower, Chamomile, more passionflower, theanine, and lavender so I could be calm enough to deal with the result.

But she actually made a decent list of what she was mad at me for besides not asking how she's doing... though I'm going to have a difficult time figuring out how to do all of them.

1. Grow up and don't act like a child.
2. Dress better.
3. Stop being so selfish.
4. Stop being lazy.
5. Stop being a slob.
6. Pay attention! How many car accidents do you intend to cause because you're not being responsible?
7. Stop blaming others for your shit and be a man and take responsibility!

So, now I've actually got something tangible to go off of. Here's what I've got to say about the different things, and well, I'd like your opinions.

1. Grow up and don't act like a child.
I'm guessing this is in reference to the fact that I cried a lot when I was helping with the move -- she was really critical the whole time and I had a difficult time handling it (and in the meantime I wasn't fixing the things she was critical of). This was particularly egregious because what she said she needed more than anything was someone who she could depend on for emotional support. Does anyone have any advice on how I can work on being less of a pansy during these times?

2. Dress better.
One of the (many) things that bothered her about her fiance was the fact that he never wore anything but crappy clothes. While helping with the move, I wore crappy clothes (for obvious reasons) and didn't really stop for a while afterward. The trouble is, besides my work clothes, I don't have much that's actually a decent, non-t-shirt-and-jeans outfit to wear on every-day occasions. And I blew a bunch of money on what was essentially three moves at the same time, so I don't have much in terms of expendable cash and probably won't for a while. Does anyone have any fashion advice for the budget-conscious?

3. Stop being so selfish.
This one is kind of a rough one, as those of you who saw her rather skewed view of selfishness in the previous texts. But there are some specifics that I can guess at -- Along with some overlap with the other things she's mentioning, I would argue with her about things that she said I was doing wrong, I would text her at times that weren't good for her, I would withdraw or refrain from talking to her when she was angry, and I would often go to sleep when she felt like we should talk. It's frustrating, though -- I have to get to work at 6:00 am every day, so it's difficult to stay up late and still be competent enough to get anything done in my new position. The Valentine's Day thing probably plays into this as well.

4. Stop being so lazy.
My best guess about this is that I didn't fix the things she was asking me to immediately, though maybe the sleeping thing played into this as well. Maybe there's more that goes into this than that, but it's all I can think of.

5. Stop being a slob.
I moved into a new apartment at the same time she moved out of her place, and I never took the time to clean up my apartment soon after the move. I also am extremely absent-minded and tend to leave stuff laying around after using it without putting it away or throwing it away. She did tell me many times during the past two months to "clean up as you go," but I never really picked up that good habit.

6. Pay attention! How many car accidents do you intend to cause because you're not being responsible?
Well, so far I've had one traffic accident and gotten two tickets in the past two months... I haven't exactly been in a good frame of mind, but I really do need to be more responsible. This all started during the move. I hadn't been this way before, so I can understand why it freaked her out.

7. Stop blaming others for your shit and be a man and take responsibility!
I... don't know what to say about this one... though if anyone's got any suggestions I'd love to hear them.

So, that's what I've got to work with now... which is a lot more than I had previously. And regardless of what you think of her or my decision to stick around, you can't deny that a lot of this is good advice. I could just use some help getting this done as well as possible.

And for those of you telling me to just leave her... well, I promised her I wouldn't when this all began, and I intend to keep that promise. Any other advice you can give me would be appreciated, though.

Man, I have to throw in my two cents here. I know it kills you that you can't seem to help this woman, especially since you have deep feelings for her. You're a "White Knight," and you may feel like YOU'VE failed because she's still like she is. But as much as you want to help, as much as you love her, and no matter how hard you DO try: she may be beyond or just unwilling to accept your help. And as much as it may kill you to have to do it, you may need to break yourself emotionally from her to save your OWN sanity in the long run.

I was in your position just two years ago. My high school sweetheart, the only girl at that point who I had EVER truly loved, had just gotten divorced. Things ended badly when we first dated back in school, but it had been over a decade and I honestly thought she had changed for the better. She had been sexually and emotionally abused as a child, all of the guys after me abused her or her kids, and I thought I could be one of the good things in her life. When I went to visit her, things seemed great at first. But that changed very quickly, and soon she was berating me for things that I either had NO control over or I was honestly trying my hardest to please her about but to no avail. It got to the point where I was physically shaking with stress and worry about what I was going to do. I eventually came to the realization that if she REALLY loved me in return, she would be willing to be more understanding and not treat me the way she had been. And when she wasn't even willing to accommodate me on these simple issues, I knew there was nothing else I could do. Yes, it hurt for the longest time afterwards. But even more issues came up during that time that I didn't know about when I was pursuing her: things she had lied about and secrets she had kept from me that really broke my trust in her. It's been two years now, I'm still in contact with her, and we're still on good terms friend-wise. But we've both found better people for us, and I can honestly say that I'm happier than I've ever been in a long time right now.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I know you feel like you HAVE to save her, but if she is really treating you the way it seems she has been, you need to take a step back and decide if this really is the best thing for YOU. At some point you're going to HAVE to be selfish and do what's best for YOU. And as much as it may pain you to do it, it may be the only way to save yourself from even MORE pain later. She's going to have find her own way at this point, because right now she's just using you as a scapegoat to pass off her own failings onto you. And losing you may be one of the things to finally make her realize what she's been doing and take changing herself more seriously. You may not end up being with her in the end, and you may feel empty for a while. But you may find in the long run that things have a way of working themselves out for the better. But you'll NEVER know if you stay in this bad situation.

Soliloquy said:

1. Dress better.
2. Stop being so selfish.
3. Stop being lazy.
4. Stop being a slob.
5. Pay attention! How many car accidents do you intend to cause because you're not being responsible?
6. Stop blaming others for your shit and be a man and take responsibility!

Click to expand...

This is a decent list of her issues? Not only is she not bothering to give you specifics, the majority of them are somewhere between petty and juvenile, and the list as a whole reads as an effort to drag you down as far as she can manage. Seriously, the whole thing amounts to calling you a lazy, childish slob.

Basically, I haven't seen a single sign that she's interested in discussing anything rationally, being fair to you, or doing anything else besides wallowing in her self-pity and blaming you for causing it. It doesn't even matter if it's your fault at this point - these exchanges are only going to make both of you continue to feel horrible, and you'd both benefit from breaking contact for at least a few days to get yourselves back into some sort of balance.

My suggestion here is simple: send her a text saying you need time to think things through, and that you'll talk to her in a week (two weeks, a month, etc.), and then do it. No contact, take care of yourself, sort your shit out so you're not just acting as a willing scapegoat for everything she thinks is wrong in her life. Try not to think about it at all for a few days, at the very least. Calm down, relax, try to find a hobby or an outlet that makes you happy, and focus on it for a while. That's it. When you come back to talking to her after your break, you'll probably have a pretty different perspective on things, and by outlining ahead of time how long you're going to go without talking to her, you shouldn't have to feel any guilt about abandoning her.

I'm sorry, Sol...but this lady is crazy.

My Dad dated a woman like this. We lived with her. She made our lives a living hell and she got crazier and crazier. She was in therapy but she never took any of the advice the therapist gave her/painted everyone in a negative light.

I'm sorry. She is a lost cause. I know it tears you up. My Dad went through the same thing, knowing she was no good for him (or us) but he still tore himself up over it to the tune of giving her absurd amounts of money which she took and still screamed at him for being an 'idiot'.

Please, tell her you need to cut contact and then DO IT.

Telling him that this is a bad situation he needs to leave is like telling Norris he needs to seek professional help. It's not going to happen.

Eventually, days/months/years down the line he may understand.

You're a fool.

Soliloquy said:

Well, call me a fool

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I know. God, I know.

However I feel for him. I'm reading this thread and I'm getting a pain in my heart because I know he feels like he can;t leave, that he believes that he is the one at fault in all this.

Oh GOD it hurts me.

I went through something kind of like this with the old fiancee that doesn't remember who I am any more *ahem* and I can say looking back I have no idea what the fuck I was doing or why I was there. Love isn't as much blind as it is stupid as fuck.

Just remember, most of us are making these suggestions to you because we care. We don't like seeing one of our own getting hurt. Take them as you will.

See that's the thing. He wants us to tell him that there's something he can do to fix it and fix her. He doesn't want to hear "it's pretty much unsalvagable" because he doesn't believe it contrary to the facts.

He's going to continue to try, regardless of advice, till he's satisfied with the result, one way or another.

Shegokigo said:

See that's the thing. He wants us to tell him that there's something he can do to fix it and fix her. He doesn't want to hear "it's pretty much unsalvagable" because he doesn't believe it contrary to the facts.

He's going to continue to try, regardless of advice, till he's satisfied with the result, one way or another.

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And you're going to continue calling him an idiot for doing it, despite knowing that he's going to. What's the difference?

Then that will be his decision. That doesn't mean we still shouldn't TRY to give him advice. And at least WE can say we gave him our viewpoints before he makes it.

All we can do is hope for the best at this point.

Vrii said:

And you're going to continue calling him an idiot for doing it, despite knowing that he's going to. What's the difference?

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You put words in my mouth sir. I'd never call him an idiot when I've been in self-destructive, obviously "should get out" relationships as well.

Shegokigo said:

You put words in my mouth sir. I'd never call him an idiot when I've been in self-destructive, obviously "should get out" relationships as well.

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My apologies, then. I was reading intent there when I guess there wasn't any.

Much like alot of us here, I understand him. Wanting so bad to just be able to "flip a switch" or "speak a word" that fixes everything (at least to the point where we're no longer hated and can begin to fix things) but the other party is already so far gone in their mind there's nothing we'd be able to to do anyway. Even if we suddenly did find a way to fix it, it wouldn't be what the other party wanted.

It's a sad situation with no real happiness, none right away anyway.

Am I really that bad...? I'm just trying to keep a promise I made to a hurting and scared woman.

She knew that things would be bad during major changes in her life. It's one of the many things she learned during therapy about people in her position. She even warned me about it before this happened... and I told her that she didn't need to worry, and that things would work out.

She believed me.

Now that it turns out I was wrong, and her faith in me was misplaced... shouldn't I at least try to do something?

Yep, I've been there too, and I know that I would have been a lot happier with how things turned out if I'd taken a month or two without talking to her before trying to discuss the issues she had. It's way too easy in the moment to just take what the other person is saying as true and offer to change, without actually filtering through it to actually figure out how you feel about it.

Wouldn't have actually changed anything for me, but I'd feel a hell of a lot better about the conversation if I'd been more prepared to stand up for myself instead of passively accepting blame for things that were far from my fault.

She doesn't want you to save her. She wants someone to feel miserable with her. And you're obliging.

I repeat. When you ask someone "How do I help you?" and they don't want you to?

That's when you walk away.

If you say "How do I help you?" and she says "You can start by....." then you can help.

You're not that bad, it's something nearly EVERYONE sadly encounters in their life if they're not very very lucky.

Soliloquy said:

Now that it turns out I was wrong, and her faith in me was misplaced

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No. This is wrong, and you need to stop accepting it so easily. Some of the issues you've had may very well be because of things you've done, but they're because of things she's done and choices she's made too. She's trying to pass all of the blame for her decisions off onto you, and you're not only letting her do it, but you're believing it yourself.

The reality is, there was no way that you two were going to live happily ever after with no issues. It's not possible. And when her response to those problems is to say "well hell, this is all your fault, you promised me things would always be good", that's not healthy. It's not healthy for her, and it's not healthy for you to have someone constantly beating you down like that. And until she's willing to take the step, accept her share of responsibility for what's happened, and stop using your attempts at communication as openings to abuse you further...no, you shouldn't be trying to do anything.

Soliloquy said:

... shouldn't I at least try to do something?

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Kobayashi Maru, dude.

Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what it looks like from here.

Sol, most of us have been in situations like this. I watched a very close friend of mine go through this with his mother. Slightly different situation, but she was mentally damaged (mentally ill, in this case) and he was unable to pull himself out of the world she created around them. From the inside, it can be difficult, or even impossible, to recognize how damaging or fucked up the situation is. This can make it impossible to make rational decisions.

But I know you are a rational dude. You can't see the evidence from within, but you have a whole group of people who care about you, who all see the truth that we've all had to learn the hard way. Accept that the evidence we present overrides what you are able to see from within, and get out. I know you love her, but you are one of the problems in her life. It's **not** your fault, you're just trying to give her what she wants, but she is in a self-destructive spiral. By giving into her, you are enabling her to hurt herself even more, and hurt you as well. This is the very definition of a toxic relationship.

The right move here is to walk away. It's not the easy move, it feels like a failure, but if you truly want to help her, you need to make that hard decision. What's more, you need to be willing to have her hate you if it means she has the chance of getting better.

You're not Norris. None of us think you are, otherwise we wouldn't be trying still. You're just stuck in a terrible situation, where the right choice is hard to see, and difficult to do.

Soliloquy said:

Am I really that bad...? I'm just trying to keep a promise I made to a hurting and scared woman.

Click to expand...

And that's the thing, man. You're NOT a bad person. But you ARE in a bad situation. And I'm sorry to say this, but this may be a promise that you just won't be able to keep no matter how much you try. It's painful to hear that, I know. I'm one of those people who hate not being able to keep my promises too. But this whole dilemma is probably not going to allow you to see it through like you had hoped. But again, that does NOT make you a bad person if you can't! Like others have said, SHE has to be willing to BE helped and take some of the responsibility to change HERSELF. Neither she NOR you can expect that YOU can do it all for her. And from the sound of her responses, that's exactly what it sounds like both of you are doing. If you continue down this path, all that will happen is that you'll feel emotionally and physically beat down, and you'll both just end up resenting each other without her having gotten better at all.

You are NOT a bad person.

Edit:
What Raven said too.

...She never used to be able to sleep well, before. She got maybe a few hours per night at best, interrupted by night terrors as she remembered the things that her stepfather used to do to her. And her dreams always felt real to her -- to dream was to relive her horrible past. To dream was, literally, the exact same thing to her as having all of those things done to her again. And the things that she shared with me were unspeakable -- the sick bastard was obsessed with horror movies, and loved to live them out with his favorite little victim.

She always had slept with the bedroom door locked, paranoid that somehow that bastard would make it out of prison and come for her.

And yet all the while, she wanted to help people. When a friend was in trouble, she'd drop everything to help, even at her own expense. No one else in her useless family would take the time to take care of her ailing grandma who is starting to show signs of dementia, but she, who lived out of state, would drive down to her grandma at least every month and use money out of her own pocket to buy the woman necessities that her social security check wouldn't cover. She only made $1,000 a month and her parents wouldn't pay for anything for her, so this was a huge deal.

And when I came into the picture, things changed for the better. When I was by her as she fell asleep, she was able to sleep through the entire night without a nightmare. She felt safe. She felt confident that no one would harm her. Her dreams became positive things. Her life became one of hope instead of one with an unshakable sense of an approaching doom.

She stopped sleeping with the door locked, even when I wasn't there. She started improving. She would smile so brightly as I looked into her eyes.

She started believing that maybe life isn't the endless string of meaningless horror that she assumed it to be. She began to see herself as worth something instead of woman who was as useless and horrible and deformed as her stepfather would tell her she was on a nightly basis.

But now... now the nightmares are back. Now she can no longer sleep through the night. Now she's doubting that she's worth anything again.

Yet she still helps people. She recently sorted out problems that my best friend's fiance was having with her in-laws before the wedding. She still drives down to her Grandma's to help her when she can, though her job prevents her from doing so as often as she'd like.

I'll be damned if I'm going to let that woman rot.

I might not be able to do anything now, but if I can improve myself in a way that will make me more capable of helping her through life, I will. She won't want to talk to me for a while, but when she does again I'm not going to have the same problems I did to begin with.

You can give me advice on how to make these improvements if you want. I've listed them and what I think they mean. I don't care if it's unfair for me. The woman who has been through so much is still willing to put others first... I cannot live in a world where that woman would be abandoned.

Yet that seems to be the world that exists -- so I choose to make it otherwise.
Added at: 05:32

Ravenpoe said:

Sol, most of us have been in situations like this. I watched a very close friend of mine go through this with his mother. Slightly different situation, but she was mentally damaged (mentally ill, in this case) and he was unable to pull himself out of the world she created around them. From the inside, it can be difficult, or even impossible, to recognize how damaging or fucked up the situation is. This can make it impossible to make rational decisions.

But I know you are a rational dude. You can't see the evidence from within, but you have a whole group of people who care about you, who all see the truth that we've all had to learn the hard way. Accept that the evidence we present overrides what you are able to see from within, and get out. I know you love her, but you are one of the problems in her life. It's **not** your fault, you're just trying to give her what she wants, but she is in a self-destructive spiral. By giving into her, you are enabling her to hurt herself even more, and hurt you as well. This is the very definition of a toxic relationship.

The right move here is to walk away. It's not the easy move, it feels like a failure, but if you truly want to help her, you need to make that hard decision. What's more, you need to be willing to have her hate you if it means she has the chance of getting better.

You're not Norris. None of us think you are, otherwise we wouldn't be trying still. You're just stuck in a terrible situation, where the right choice is hard to see, and difficult to do.

Click to expand...

...I don't want to hurt her, though. Do you really think I'm worse for her by trying to be there?

Fair enough. Good luck, Godspeed, and we'll be here to listen just in case you need to vent later.

Am I being irrational about this? I am having a bit of a hard time keeping my head on straight.
Added at: 05:56
I am seeing a therapist on Monday. I'll take along the text messages and see what comes of that.

Soliloquy said:

I am seeing a therapist on Monday. I'll take along the text messages and see what comes of that.

Click to expand...

That's a really, really good first step. I'd suggest not deciding anything until you see how that goes.

As to being irrational? Obviously there are a bunch of us who think you are, but it's your life and you have to make the choices that make sense to you. You may end up looking back at this as a bad decision, but it's a position where you have to try to make the choice that you figure you're going to regret the least. None of us can tell you what that is; we can only tell you how it looks from the outside, and filtered through our own experiences.

I do have to say that I really appreciate all of you being there and talking me through this. And honestly, you guys are probably right. It probably is a lost cause. There probably isn't much that I can do.

Just knowing that actually helps, though. I feel a lot more sane than I did when I posted this thread. It helps to get outside perspective, even if I am still going forward with what probably is a horrible idea. Things don't sting as much when I at least know I have people that are there people to at least talk to and keep me from going completely over the edge.

So, thanks, everyone. It may not seem like it from your perspective, but you really have helped a lot.

Soliloquy said:

Am I really that bad...? I'm just trying to keep a promise I made to a hurting and scared woman.

She knew that things would be bad during major changes in her life. It's one of the many things she learned during therapy about people in her position. She even warned me about it before this happened... and I told her that she didn't need to worry, and that things would work out.

She believed me.

Now that it turns out I was wrong, and her faith in me was misplaced... shouldn't I at least try to do something?

Click to expand...

Dude, she's pissed at you because you don't - dress better.

That's pretty petty and ridiculous.

Sol, you had pretty much one way of keeping her--be the asshole you were trying to get her away from.

So you should only be regretting all this if you would've happily fit that mold.

Just caught up. Best of luck, Sol. I have nothing really new to say. *hug* Bless you for caring, but make sure you're saving enough for yourself.

Pretty much in lockstep with CG.

You have helped get her to a point in her life where she can stand tall enough to demand what she feels she needs.

Whether or not it's ACTUALLY something she needs is another story, but - as has been said already - she's a big girl now.

You can stand by on the side, let her bike off without training wheels, let her pick herself up when she falls. Just be ready to listen and help, if she comes to you with something specific.

Until then, get yourself to a good place. One cannot help others if they are not able to help themselves, first.

I've noticed that all these stories involve a dude trying desperately be the knight in shining armor for a dragon.

Mathias said:

I've noticed that all these stories involve a dude trying desperately be the knight in shining armor for a dragon.

Click to expand...

I am totally writing that fairy tale for later this year. Thanks.

Quotemander Prime said:

I am totally writing that fairy tale for later this year. Thanks.

Click to expand...

I think it's been done...kinda...

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0116136/

Mathias said:

I think it's been done...kinda...

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0116136/

Click to expand...

Mine will star Kevin Costner instead.

...crap, that's the same damn thing!

So... the therapist agreed that it was dumb of me to not do something for Valentine's day, which is how all this got so bad to begin with. The therapist did say that she was tearing down on me and driving me crazy and tried to convince me it's not my fault or responsibility but... I don't know, the fact that I screwed up so bad to begin with kind of makes that hard to swallow.

And, well... things got even worse this weekend. She's apparently really sick (stress really does a number on her messed-up post-trauma immune system) and had to miss school today. She called me yesterday, and asked if I could talk. I said I could for a bit -- She said she needed me to take care of something involving a mix-up with the power bill that she transferred to her name. I said I’ll see if I can fix it online, and if not I can come over and fix it there. I THINK she said “you can’t come over today” (She might have said “can” but she sounded really angry so I assume the other) so I said “no no no not today, whenever works for you.” She then asked if I was busy today, I told her we had family coming into town that day -- a day earlier than they had originally planned -- so I was helping my parents clean before they arrived. This frustrated her -- it occurred to me later that she might have wanted to talk about something, but I didn't think of it at the time.

Today, right before therapy, she told me she was really sick and hadn't been able to eat anything today. I had a planned dinner with the family that had driven into town and some other of family that was already over at the house and waiting for me to arrive, but I offered to get her some Udon (a food that she's always able to eat for some reason) after the dinner was over -- around 8:00 tonight. She told me she didn't want to see me, especially if I was too busy for her again. I offered to leave dinner early, but she still didn't want to see me.

Now, I want an honest opinion -- outside of the context of the previous conversations (as in, if you just considered us boyfriend and girlfriend without the drama involved) would that have been the wrong thing to do on my part? Her past fiance had a habit of always putting his parents and family first at her expense, so she's always been worried that I would do the same -- did I just drop the ball there? If I'm ever in a future relationship, should I handle that differently?

She has to realize that this family thing was something you had ALREADY planned. Now, how often do you see these particular relatives? Compared how often you have chances to see her? Yes, you should definitely be aware of and understanding of what's important to her. But at the same time, SHE needs to be aware of the same for you if she really cares. Help her with her problem as soon as you can, but within reason.

Again, I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding, but it sure does sound like she's trying to guilt trip you into doing a lot of things for her. You need to be aware of this and not let yourself be bullied by her. She knows what you're willing to do for her, and you need to make sure she's not taking advantage of that to the point where you are completely emotionally and physically torn down.

Pretty much sounds like she's acting like a Dramapire in this latest scenario. She DID know that your family was coming in, correct? Kinda dickish and definitely excessively selfish to expect you to drop everything and fly to her side, when there is nothing you can actually do for her, other than simply be there for her.

You could always do a ding-dong ditch with a bowl of Udon on her front step (that would be what old-school White-Knight-Charon would have done), but it sounds to me like she's working too hard to play with your emotions to manipulate her actions, and I really wouldn't bother.

You are not her puppet - you are her equal in any relationship y'all have/had. You are not at her beck and call - if you help her, it is because you WANT to, not because SHE wants you to. Any relationship like that has a name: parasitism.

Maybe that came off a bit harsh, but it's evident that her treatment of you is not doing you any good. Time to cut the shrouds and take your chances.

She didn't know that I had plans tonight -- we haven't really talked to each other that much about what's going on in our lives lately. She did know from yesterday that family was coming into town yesterday, but not that there was a big dinner planned for tonight.

I offered to leave the food at the door, but she wasn't interested. She didn't really ask for anything in the first place, though. But I have a feeling that my explanation and offer came across as an excuse not to see her while trying to make it seem like I wanted to...

Dude, leave her alone! Move on. She's toxic as hell.


And yeah, you guys clearly have major communication issues. I've seen this all before with a good friend of mine. He would talk to his girlfriend, and then break down and analyze everything she told him until it had lost all sense and meaning.

If you have to decode what she's telling you, call her back and ask her what the hell she's talking about. All this guess work just leads to misunderstandings and being pissed off. But really, she sounds like she's got major issues (like my friend's ex-girlfriend). It's scary how similar this is to his experiences.

I know it's hard. You love her. But for your own good, you've got to dump her; ignore all the blaming bullshit she's going to spout at you. She's going to make you out to be Satan. That's what these types do. And it's ok. You'll both be happier in the end. Yes, there are other fish in the sea - ones that don't drive you insane with guilt.

Soliloquy said:

She didn't know that I had plans tonight -- we haven't really talked to each other that much about what's going on in our lives lately. She did know from yesterday that family was coming into town yesterday, but not that there was a big dinner planned for tonight.

I offered to leave the food at the door, but she wasn't interested. She didn't really ask for anything in the first place, though. But I have a feeling that my explanation and offer came across as an excuse not to see her while trying to make it seem like I wanted to...

Click to expand...

Go enjoy yourself with your family. Stop trying to analyze what you told her and how she took it. This is what I mean about communication problems. You told her something, and you're not sure if it got across. That's a communication problem. And she's being a whining sack of shit by not explaining what her problem is. I absolutely hate that bullshit that some women do. The ol "you better be able to read my mind and I won't tell you what's really wrong" type of horseshit. Women that make you guess about their feelings, in my opinion, are stuck in some sort of quasi- fantasy land between a trashy, grocery store romance novel and a cheesy love story movie.

I'll tell you straight up why I married my wife. She's frank and blunt with me about her feelings. There's no bullshit between us. No mind reading. No guess work. She let's me know what's on her mind, and I do the same. That's why I've been married for seven years with no major hitches thus far. Do I piss her off? Yes. Does she piss me off. Yes. But we always know why, and from that point you can make amends.

It's said that communication is key in a relationship, and I don't think many people understand what that means.
Added at: 06:50

mr_thehun said:

Have to agree here. Anyone that forces you to make a choice between your family and them or who forces you to make a choice between them and anything that you love, is going too far.

I understand that she has been hurt in the past. It doesn't mean that you should join her in her pain.

Click to expand...

He explained that she didn't really know about his plans. But that's partially his fault. What he should have done is been like, "Yo, my folks are in town and we're going to dinner. I don't know if you've eaten anything, but you're welcome to join us. We're going to Chockis." At that point she'd know what's up and there wouldn't be any guesswork on her end. There would be no reason to think that he's blowing her off with excuses.

This is what I mean about proper communication. See what both of them are doing is only partially listening to what the other is saying, and then filling in gaps with made-up guesswork bullshit. But overall, I think the issues rest more with her than it does with Sol. I mean I understand why she's got issues. But Sol's got to stop trying to be her knight in shining armor.

If you guys really do love each other, you should go to therapy together. You should learn how to properly communicate with each other. But to me it seems like she's very selfish and self-serving. Love is about sacrifice and understanding on both ends. From what I've read, Sol's the only one doing that (no leaving her fiance to be with you is not a major sacrifice). I suggest just letting her go.

I am having trouble comprehending how this got to page 3. This is exactly why there are programs to help battered (emotionally and physically) women get away from the situation they are in. You absolutely need a non romantic interest for it to be even remotely successful. Even then the chance of failure is incredibly high.

Stay away. Stay away. Stay away. You are not what she needs in her life and she is not what you need. She is projecting on to you, manipulating you and overall just completely screwing with any sense or normalcy you may ever have. Her ability to manipulate you and have you take the blame for something you can't control (how she feels) is astounding, but even more incredible is your ability to sit there and take it.

I don't have time to finish this, but whatever you do stay away from this woman, cease all contact immediately and avoid her at all costs. You're gonna feel like shit for a long time, but eventually it goes away and you start to live for you again and that's what this life is about. If you're not happy, what's the point?

Docseverin said:

I am having trouble comprehending how this got to page 3. This is exactly why there are programs to help battered (emotionally and physically) women get away from the situation they are in. You absolutely need a non romantic interest for it to be even remotely successful. Even then the chance of failure is incredibly high.

Stay away. Stay away. Stay away. You are not what she needs in her life and she is not what you need. She is projecting on to you, manipulating you and overall just completely screwing with any sense or normalcy you may ever have. Her ability to manipulate you and have you take the blame for something you can't control (how she feels) is astounding, but even more incredible is your ability to sit there and take it.

I don't have time to finish this, but whatever you do stay away from this woman, cease all contact immediately and avoid her at all costs. You're gonna feel like shit for a long time, but eventually it goes away and you start to live for you again and that's what this life is about. If you're not happy, what's the point?

Click to expand...

You know you're right. My rant about communication is generally for people with less... issues.

Just walk away bro. Walk away.

That friend I was talking about earlier with the crazy girlfriend. He stayed with her for two years. He admitted to me they were the lowest point of his life. He dumped her and found someone a couple years later. He's now happily married, and doing fine. His ex is a facebook friend of mine (I don't really talk to her, but reading her stupid posts is better than cable TV); she's still miserable, still self absorbed.

This girl is not going to get better with your help. She has to want to move on with herself. You can't save her. Let her go.

Tinwhistler said:

what is it you like about this girl again?

Click to expand...

(.) (.)

Honestly? This only all started happening when she moved and got scared. She was nothing like this before -- there had been occasional signs of things being wrong, but I was always able to calm her down and diffuse situations through communication and compassion, and she had always been good at and clear about communicating herself.

And, well... when she moved, she was very clear and angry about a number of things that were wrong all at once... and it kind of overwhelmed me to the point where I freaked out, leading us to where we are now.

She's always been kind-hearted and loving toward everyone -- the move, and the fear that came as a result changed her demeanor towards everything in her life.

She's fun, really smart, a joy to talk to, and outright gorgeous.

Also:






You don't run across a girl like that more than once in a lifetime.

You're right, attractive geek girls are definitely a minority these days....

Have you been to any kind of 'Con in the past 5yrs?

Also the question wasn't "What did you see in this girl" it was "What do you see her" as in for the person she is now. Also save the "I can fix her back to the way she was" because noone can be "fixed" they can only be a slightly "better" version of whoever they are.

The thing is, it all changed so suddenly that that's still what I see in her. I know that person's still there. I just feel like I can't reach her...

And, well... when she moved, she was very clear and angry about a number of things that were wrong all at once... and it kind of overwhelmed me to the point where I freaked out, leading us to where we are now.

Click to expand...

Dude, you have got to get this out of your head, you are not responsible for her behavior. She is an adult. She is responsible for her behavior.

Like fuck you don't.

I'm sorry. This is just bringing back so many bad memories of my Dad. I just read about the whole 'guilt trip over family' thing and Dads ex used to do that all the time. It got worst when they moved in together. "Oh, that brother you see every six months? No. Don't see him because I just happen to need your help that night he's in town."

"OH! You're sister is calling? I'll answer it to make sure she really is your sister...and then I'll call her a bitch and whore anyways because you don't need any other women in you life."

"Oh? Those two daughters you have? THOSE WILL BE WOMEN SOME DAY. They are whores and all you need is me, right? I'll start looking into boarding schools."

Also, she was a teacher. A TEACHER. She was praised by parents for being fair and 'compassionate' to her students. She used to delight in beating me, my sister and her own daughter. I mean she would scream and laugh like she was a fucking maniac. She would blame every problem her or Dad was having on us to the point I believed everything she said because she was getting awards and shit for being 'a nice person'.

I now look at all people who are 'nice' with extra suspicion and I hate that. I believe that most people are liars. Do not let this woman do that to you.

I am getting way to emotionally involved in this thread. Fuck.

Soliloquy said:

You don't run across a girl like that more than once in a lifetime.

Click to expand...

Yeah you do, they're just less crazy.

You can eat it, but you really have to like cake.

It just seems like such a damn shame. She was getting healthier ideas about herself and actually feeling worth something for once in her life, then it all fell to pieces.

You all are probably right, though...

Just came across this. Don't let this be you.

Man... It's almost as painful to not talk to her as it is to talk to her. Errgh... why does human emotion have to suck so much?

Soliloquy said:

Man... It's almost as painful to not talk to her as it is to talk to her. Errgh... why does human emotion have to suck so much?

Click to expand...

Stay strong, brother.

Man there are so many issues with this relationship, a little amateur psychology here (it's cool I took an intro to psychology course). The co-dependence in this relationship is smothering and I am not even physically near it. You are being used, she is an emotional succubus man, it's horrible to think of her like that I know but from what you have described it's hard not to see it. She was in an "abusive" relationship and you were there for her, shit why wouldn't things be better with you. Now that she know's your a nice guy it's her turn to be the abuser, and why not she was controlled for so long she should be able to have a little control right? FUCKING WRONG, she should be seeking help to cope with whatever it is you pulled her out of. Relationships of a romantic nature should be the last thing on her mind. That's just her.

You have idealized this woman to the point that you have lost sight of the red flags, she uses her emotions and distance to control your actions. You've become conditioned, you seem to have no sense of self worth and you basically rely on her to know whether you are doing something right....isn't that cute, BUT IT'S WRONG! You need to get a grip and know that this woman does not define you, you define who you are. You are by all rights an intelligent human being, and you deserve to be in healthy, non co-dependent relationships. The women are out there and you can meet them, will it be hard? Yes. Will you have to suffer some heartbreak to find the right one? Yes. But as long as you know that you are a good person and that you can contribute in a constructive manner to relationships then you don't have to put up with this kind of manipulative, destructive, emasculating, and all around toxic environment.

Stay strong, avoid her, and find somebody with whom you enjoy spending time but where the time spent together doesn't define your life.

Man it's threads like this that make me pretty content with being a sociopath.

Emotions are weird.

I've been in a state of panic for the past few days, worried about her health and yet not wanting to contact her. Then today she texted me because I needed to take care of some paperwork before she went to work involving when I helped her sign up for electricity for her new apartment.

So now, having had a conversation with her in which 1) I found out she's at least well enough to go to work, and 2) was not utterly eviscerated by her, I feel a lot better.

The conversation was nothing but "this needs to be taken care of" and "All right, it's done! here's the info you need," and I'm still not going to contact her any more than necessary. And yet now I feel about 100% less distraught.

I think we should outlaw emotions, like in Equilibrium. And then we should all learn Gun Kata.

You rule dude, you rule.

Well done, man. You're helping her with the technical stuff - which alieviates some of your guilt - while keeping her emotionally at arms length. Kudos.

Good, good. Go and reward yourself with an ice cream sandwich or some scotch.

Cajungal said:

Good, good. Go and reward yourself with an ice cream sandwich AND some scotch.

Click to expand...

Fixed it...

I assumed she meant butterscotch. Mmm...

Why does she have to go out of her way to make sure I know just how awful everything is for her and emphasize that everything's clearly my fault and that I've made her life so horrible?

She contacted me yesterday asking if I even missed her at all. I admitted that I did, and since I wanted to be supportive I told her that she's an amazing person.

She told me I was a liar and that if I felt that way this wouldn't have happened. Then she spent the next two hours detailing how horrible her life is and how I'm a "common con artist" and how she never should have trusted me.

The worst part is I understand why she feels that way -- I've done quite a bit of reading on people who have been through the kind of trauma she has, and on emotional needs in relationships -- but the only way I can go about making her feel better requires her to at least believe what I'm telling her. She made it clear that she doesn't believe a word I said.

Why does she even bother talking to me, if she's not going to even listen? Is this the only way she can feel better about herself? Having that conversation last night has made it difficult for me to get any work done today.

And the worst thing is -- I DO miss her. I had the best years of my life so far with her. She inspired me to make something of myself.

And now she's in pain... and I can't fix it.

Agggflbrrrrrg quit talking to her.

I make the angry squid noise because I have been there. This is not a condemnation of you: I know why you are doing what you are doing. But holy fuck just stop talking to her. You will be amazed at how much better your life can be. I know it sounds like bullshit but if the best years of your life were with someone who is clearly emotionally manipulative, then your life is going to be so much better when you meet people who aren't.

...two hours detailing how horrible her life is and how I'm a "common con artist" and how she never should have trusted me...

Click to expand...

Dude, if someone is tearing you a new one on the phone... hang up. Be more proud of yourself and don't take that shit. Definitely don't take it for two hours.

It's getting hard to sympathize at this point.

Want to know why she calls you?

To bury you and your self-esteem further into the ground.

That's all she calls for now. She's not even looking for help anymore (as I pointed out earlier, the only help she wants is a fat chunk of money to solve all her problems, she doesn't care who gives it to her) she just wants to constantly tear you down. Why? Because you let her.

Invite her to the TF2 server. I'll make her do less damage and make you do more. Then you play until she rage quits.

Dave said:

Invite her to the TF2 server. I'll make her do less damage and make you do more. Then you play until she rage quits.

Click to expand...

I think she's better at TF2 than me . You'd probably have to make her do, like, half damage.

I could make you invulnerable & noclip. GRAAA!

Azurephoenix said:

He just needs some solid backup... you have my axe! Er... rocket launcher...

Click to expand...

You don't play Pyro, huh?

Everyone's good with Soldier.

Including Scout's Mom

That's the spy Charon....

Urge to sympathize..fading...

Shegokigo said:

That's the spy Charon....

Click to expand...

I figure if she'd give it up for the Spy, then the Soldier wouldn't be too far behind to exploit the opening.

.. Or perhaps I'm just thinking about this FAR too hard...

Shegokigo said:

Everyone's good with Soldier.

Click to expand...

Damn it! Let me have my delusions!

I think I just lost my oldest childhood friend over this. She's good friends with his wife and she's pretty much responsible for saving their marriage and they've been talking and... Fuck. Fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck.

FUUUUUUUUUCK.

Yep. Didn't answer his phone when I called, even though I know he's not busy. Fuck.

Jumping the gun a bit no?

Also a guy who'd stop talking to you forever over a woman doesn't exactly strike me as a "good friend". Especially if the woman is an ex of your and nothing to do with him directly.

Shegokigo said:

Jumping the gun a bit no?

Also a guy who'd stop talking to you forever over a woman doesn't exactly strike me as a "good friend". Especially if the woman is an ex of your and nothing to do with him directly.

Click to expand...

I tried talking to him last weekend but he didn't return my call. I found out today that he and his wife are paying to have my ex fly out to see them (they live in another state).

He's the first friend I ever had, all the way back from First Grade. We see each other every time we're in the same city, always get each other gifts for Christmas and birthdays, etc. He, my ex and his wife became good friends after I introduced all of them to each other.

I'm running low on friends.

That's pretty low brow, this is why I have no friends. Seriously. I push all attempts at people getting to know me IRL because it's never a positive thing. The Cons far outweigh the Pros. Much like being in a monogamous relationship.

I'm not saying that's what you should do. I'm just saying that's what works for me so I can't exactly relate to your issue.

If your "friend" is willing to cut you off without even giving you a chance to tell your side, you're better off without him. That said, ending a relationship usually ends up with some friends choosing sides, and given how hard your ex seems to work at manipulating people and spinning events to make herself look good...this probably shouldn't be a surprise.

Look at it this way, maybe you'll get lucky, and your friends will keep her.

When a couple splits, their friends have to make a decision as to whom they will continue to see. It's HIGHLY unusual that a couple that splits both stay friends with their other "couple" friends. And in this case the guy is choosing his wife over you. He's choosing the easy way out, but I totally understand why he did it.

There's nothing you can do. Quit calling him as well. I know he's been your friend since 1st grade but you won't win against a wife. Fighting this will do nothing but hurt and frustrate you.

Deep breaths and go play a game for a while.

I don't do anything BUT play games anymore, though. I don't have any friends in town, and I'm too broke to do anything but sit around my apartment all day.

Soliloquy said:

I don't do anything BUT play games anymore, though. I don't have any friends in town, and I'm too broke to do anything but sit around my apartment all day.

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Free things to do to get out & meet people:

• Go walk around the park. Works really, really well if you also have a dog.
• Go to a book store. Usually you can lounge and read as well as browse.
• Go to your local comic book/gaming store. Look for a game. Contact them. I've met some amazing people that way.
• Go to your work/school's exercise area & work out. If your work or school has a workout area.

If disappearing into games isn't your thing right now because you're doing it too much, than you need to get out. Yes, at first you'll feel like a forever alone, but once you figure out how that it's okay to be alone even in public you'll be surprised at how much confidence you'll have.

Get a pet. It helps. Really.

Shegokigo said:

Get a pet. It helps. Really.

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Is that what you call that poor girl in your basement?

"Poor" is a relative term....

Oh shit did I just channel Romney?

Shegokigo said:

Get a pet. It helps. Really.

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Yeah but that is actually pretty expensive (if you do it right).

I am reminded of one Halforumer who was having problems with his friend inviting another friend over to a party which was exclusively for his friend. Name escapes me but I'm having flashbacks.

Soliloquy said:

I'm running low on friends.

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That sucks, dude. Sorry to hear it.

I'd advise you to leave them alone and wait for them to contact you - if ever. Continuing to try to call them for any reason, let alone to "explain your side of the story" is simply going to end even worse than it is right now.

Whether they will want to remain friends with you - time will tell. However it's quite obvious that they are choosing to support her.

You'll need to cultivate new friendships. It's hard, but it's worth it.

So... things just got turned on their head.

I won't go into detail out of respect for her privacy, but... let's just say that seeing her losing hair and the fact that she coughs up blood after any physical exertion puts a different perspective on her sudden change in behavior.

...you've seen her?

LittleSin said:

...you've seen her?

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She came over crying, and yeah... her hair was thinner and I saw her cough up blood.

Huh.

Did she tell you the cause and, be very honest, did it sound rational? Like, was there any part of you that said "This sounds weird to me."

Let's just say that my internet research after finding out showed that there's an increased risk of it happening to someone the earlier in life that they start having sex.

She was five.

Dude, stop calling my cell. You're annoying my wife. ZOMG


Honestly though, sorry to hear how things go but that's how it is when you go out with someone within your circle of friends, people will choose and more than likely since your breasts aren't as big as hers, you're going to lose.

I guess I need to stop excercising

My best friend, "Joe", dated my wife's best friend, "Lizzy", for a little over a year and they broke up. I know Lizzy pretty well too, and consider her a good friend. When she and Joe broke up, my wife and Lizzy were kinda pissed that I would still go hang out with Joe. I told them both to grow up, and that I'm not going to stop hanging out with my one of my best friends since 8th grade. Lizzy was mad, but she got over it (especially when she got married a couple years down the road). I'm still friends with both parties.

Your friend is a douche if he stops being your friend over a woman. Especially if said woman isn't even on his nookie list, so it just means he's completely spineless when it comes to standing up to his own wife.

Soliloquy said:

So... things just got turned on their head.

I won't go into detail out of respect for her privacy, but... let's just say that seeing her losing hair and the fact that she coughs up blood after any physical exertion puts a different perspective on her sudden change in behavior.

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Damn dude, you know how to pick the crazies...

Adammon said:

I am reminded of one Halforumer who was having problems with his friend inviting another friend over to a party which was exclusively for his friend. Name escapes me but I'm having flashbacks.

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Oh God, that was a nightmare. Was it Ironbrig?

Did we ever get a wrap-up for how that party went?

Mathias said:

Oh God, that was a nightmare. Was it Ironbrig?

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It was Norris. Yes, he had two famous threads.