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Dear mods: I dithered back and forth about whether this belongs in general or religion & politics and ultimately figured we could have a rational discussion in general. Feel free to move if it you feel differently or it goes off track.

Interesting point raised in the rant thread. I figured it would be better if taken from the rant thread and discussed separately.

Kiff said:

I don't think suicide is a selfish act.

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My first response is that selfishness is in the eye of the beholder. Two different people may view one person's actions so differently that one declares the action selfish, and the other does not. So it may be a moot point.

First point of discussion - is there an absolute, rational way to measure selfishness, or is selfishness relative and/or subjective?

My own views on the selfishness of suicide is, that in general the little experience I've had with others committing suicide suggests that when they are ending their life they are only truly thinking (and therefore acting for and in behalf of) themselves. They may not see it that way - I know some who indicate that "the world will be better off without me" but the reality suggests that they are in such a great degree of pain that they see suicide only as a method to end their own suffering, not as a method to improve the world, or positively affect anyone else's life.

That's not to say that all suicide is selfish - but most seem to be driven from an intense inward turning on themselves and their own feelings due to their own perception of how the world does or will view them.

Further, I'm not sure that those who are mentally ill can be characterized as selfish any more than a child that does not understand what "self" is, and it can readily be argued that by the time one commits to taking their own life, they may be characterized as mentally ill.

So... it's not cut and dried, but I still tend towards selfish.

I would object to characterizing kids as not selfish every one of the little devils I've ever met over 2 months old knows exactly what self is and that their self should have everything they see. Not that their is anything wrong with that it's perfectly natural.

But you pretty much sum up my point. The person committing suicide isn't thinking about making anybody else's life better.

I don't think it's selfish per se, but is instead an incredible act of desperation. People who attempt or succeed in suicide view their world and situation as being unable to overcome. In some cases, it's debts or poor health that cause the individual to attempt the taking of his/her life. In those cases it may be because they don't want to put their families through something and it could actually be an incredibly unselfish act. At least in their eyes.

In the end, though, it doesn't matter the reasons a person would do this thing as it will hurt people no matter what. I feel very sorry for all people involved in these situations, especially those cases where clues were given and written off for various reasons.

because they don't want to put their families through something and it could actually be an incredibly unselfish act. At least in their eyes.

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By killing themselves they do not avoid putting their families through anything though. Having gone through depression and suicidal idealizations at one point in my life, I was selfish in my actions it was not that I wanted to keep my family from being put through stuff, but that I didn't want to deal with the consequences of my actions. That would make it selfish in my mind.

Docseverin said:

because they don't want to put their families through something and it could actually be an incredibly unselfish act. At least in their eyes.

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By killing themselves they do not avoid putting their families through anything though. Having gone through depression and suicidal idealizations at one point in my life, I was selfish in my actions it was not that I wanted to keep my family from being put through stuff, but that I didn't want to deal with the consequences of my actions. That would make it selfish in my mind.

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Similar to this. As I said in the rant thread, my thing was that i was in a situation that I wasn't getting out of. The cops had been called before, child protective services had been called but no one could help me.

Feeling that helpless, feeling like I was part of some kind of torturous experiment where what would please her one day would send her into a blind rage the next day...just never knowing what was gonig to happen from one minute to the next...I just couldn't deal with it anymore.

She even fed my depression, offering to load the gun for me and such...making it seem acceptable in a small way. Something that was desired of me.

It was really hard to explain unless you've been there. I guess the best way I can explain it is exhaustion. I just wanted to sleep and sleep and sleep and never come back.

As I said - in their eyes.

I hold people to different standards between when they are children and when they are adults, and so this question isn't going to have only one answer in my eyes.

I believe that selfish is a matter of perspective.

Now.... suicide is a complex subject. What is the meaning of suicide? I believe that suicide means to kill oneself. Now, the method of suicide differs and some may view certain act, not suicidal. (matter of interpretation)

Now is suicide a selfish act? under certain circumstance, it can be (again perspective) and some circumstances it is not.
If a person is in great pain and knowing to cause great pain to the family, some may see that suicide is to relieve that pain from the family and oneself. This may not be selfish act especially if the act can relieve family's pain financially and emotionally. i.e. if a person who had live a full life but is dying. This person is causing family debt to rise in the thousands and beyond which will cause the family to be in debt for a long time. The slow death is causing pain in the family, but if a person is willing to let go, then no more debts are incurred and the family will feel the lost, but a person would sacrifice oneself (one may view as suicide) for the greater good.

That is another thing. A person may willing to sacrifice oneself (which in most cases I consider suicide if you go by the actual definition) for a cause. Some cause are worthy (saving people) some are not (cause you have no other choices) again, it is matter of personal interpretation.

So I guess the final answer would be, it depends on the situation where this suicide occurs.
(that is my view on the matter)

I think it's a sliding scale between selfishness and selflessness, depending on their net effect on the people around them--but that's more about the consequences of the act. The act itself... I don't think anything of it, except that it's another human's death, that in itself is regrettable enough to me.

I spent a lot of time on this when I was younger, partially it's what turned me into solipsism. In the end I guess it's a matter of personal perspective, so eh.

I don't think it's selfish, though I can understand why other people think it is.

I once heard someone say, "Suicide is selfish because while the people who commit suicide don't need to suffer any more, they are causing suffering for their loved ones." I immediately thought, "So, are the loved ones okay with the idea of keeping the person alive and suffering? Isn't that also selfish?"

I would argue that it is a self-involved act. Selfishness, to me, implies that the person is hoping to gain something but that doesn't really jive with the level of despair that a suicidal person must feel. However, depression does involve a level of obsessiveness that revolves around negative thoughts, usually about themselves or their plight. The time they spend thinking about themselves is not selfish, but I would say it isn't far off from self-obsessed.

I had a chat with my wife and she said something interesting. She said that "selfish suicide" is a matter of perspective.

The person committing suicide is not going to think it is selfish, I think everyone can agree on that. I do think that it is fair to say that the majority of survivors (people related to successful suicides) will find it a selfish act, and if history has taught us nothing it is that the living write history not the dead. It is selfish.

---------- Post added at 06:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:27 AM ----------

I would argue that it is a self-involved act. Selfishness, to me, implies that the person is hoping to gain something but that doesn't really jive with the level of despair that a suicidal person must feel.

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It could be argued that the person committing suicide hopes to gain relief from their problems and oppressive depression.

I have also seen the argument that the family wanting the suicidal person to stay alive in misery is selfish, this I find wrong on so many levels. Suicide is a permanent solution to very temporary problems, so asking some one to stay a live until they can get the help they need to over come their issues is not selfish, when it could in fact lead to a long and fulfilled life that the suicidal person might not have had, had the family been "unselfish" and let the person complete.

I am a suicide counselor for the Army as well as a Medic, I have dealt with soldiers on the brink and the remains of completed suicides, I can not see it as anything more than a stupid selfish/self-involved act.

Suicide is the ultimate cop-out. I don't know if it can be properly termed "selfish," but it's definitely deciding your own concerns trump those of others. Of course, there are exceptions to every rule. The soldier who throws himself on an enemy grenade, saving his squadmates, surely was the very definition of selfless.

Gas, I consider self-sacrifice as a total different thing than suicide.

I actually list "it would hurt my family" to a reason not to live, thought my self-destructive inner voice often says "that is because they are stupid enough to think that your life is worth something".

Also, I hate the "Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem" so fucking much and in so fucking levels, it really insults and forgets the miriad of problems, permanent problems that can lead to depression and suicide.

I go back and forth. I'm sure some people are sick of hearing my personal experience with this. On one hand, I think that some people do go into it thoughtlessly. However, I'm hesitant to pass judgment on people who commit suicide even though I understand it's natural to feel angry towards those who try it or succeed.

By the time my godmother succeeded (she tried several times), she was barely herself. Going outside wasn't an option unless she was desperate for something, she talked about everything like it was hopeless or pointless. She'd try and hide this with a false smile or happy inflection, but it was obvious to all of us. She was literally broken. I feel she was broken in the same way that a person with cancer can be broken. Sometimes there is really nothing left, and you lose the fight with the disease. You're taken by it. You can tell me I'm hiding from the truth, but I've seen that it's possible. Of course I want people to work through their problems. Of course I want their pain to be taken away in a way that doesn't scar their loved ones. However, sometimes this is too much to ask. In my godmother's case, it was too much. There was so much for her to stay for. She admitted this in her suicide note. It wasn't enough. It's not about whether or not they care. If we're talking about someone with a long, difficult mental illness that warps and torments them they way that it did my aunt, then I can't say the word "selfish." I hate that it happened, and sometimes I'm still angry with her, but I still can't do it. That said, I don't think all options were exhausted before she did it. Other medications or types of therapy could have been tried. We could have been more vigilant. I'd never encourage a depressed person to "release" him or herself. I think that most people can get through something like that with help and should try everything for themselves and their loved ones.

All that said, I absolutely believe there are people out there who behave rashly and do something, thoughtlessly, that can never be taken back. Of course that upsets me, and it strikes me as more selfish. But when I hear about a suicide, I rarely know the background of the person. So I can't really make a judgment, because I have no idea what's been going on inside of them.

Bottom line, I guess it is, because people are choosing to leave people behind. But as I stated above, sometimes the people who leave are barely the person you love anymore. It doesn't make it better or less painful, but it helped to make me more understanding.