Search forums

Forums

Export thread

Is the spread of spelling errors good for modern literary accessability?

Nov 18, 2009#1

TotalFusionOne

I mean, just think. With more people accepting spelling errors without commenting we're opening the doors for whole new generations of writers who otherwise would have been held back by poor spelling or grammar. In other words: The internet is singlehandedly responsible for opening the creative writing world up to millions of people who otherwise would have been left out for their perceived un-intelligence.

My next debate will either be: "When did Colour become Color?" or "Is fanfiction/slashfiction 'art?'"

Nov 18, 2009#2

Chazwozel

TotalFusionOne said:
I mean, just think. With more people accepting spelling errors without commenting we're opening the doors for whole new generations of writers who otherwise would have been held back by poor spelling or grammar. In other words: The internet is singlehandedly responsible for opening the creative writing world up to millions of people who otherwise would have been left out for their perceived un-intelligence.

My next debate will either be: "When did Colour become Color?" or "Is fanfiction/slashfiction 'art?'"

ITT: The internet has opened the door for a lot of shitty writing.

Nov 18, 2009#3

TotalFusionOne

Chazwozel said:
ITT: The internet has opened the door for a lot of shitty writing.

No, that was THAT thread. Which is also ITT, but why would you be posting it here?

Nov 18, 2009#4

Dave

I detest what the internet and especially cell phone texting has done to what people perceive is allowed in communication. For example, my 20+ niece put this yesterday on her Facebook page:

At WrK..GoT ScHoOl In ThE Am..ThEn To ThE ObGyN FoR SoMe TeStS...ThEn BaK To WrK In ThE Pm

My response:

Hopefully school teaches you rules of capitalization and punctuation. Dork.

And they look at this as something totally acceptable and correct, but is really just laziness.

Nov 18, 2009#5

Seraphyn

I get text talk, when you're actually texting. On forums and such however, you have both the time and space to just type out your thoughts in a normal comprehensible manner, why not put in that little bit of effort in order to not come across as a total moron?

Nov 18, 2009#6

Baerdog

I agree with everything Chaz, Dave, and Seraphyn have said in this thread.

Nov 18, 2009#7

TotalFusionOne

Fail parody thread is fail.

Nov 18, 2009#8

Shannow

So what, are you telling me how I have to type!? What, are you going to stand over my pc and watch my fingers on the keyboard!!!?? Shit man, you may as well ask to check my bags when I leave a store!!!

Nov 18, 2009#9

TotalFusionOne

Shannow said:
So what, are you telling me how I have to type!? What, are you going to stand over my pc and watch my fingers on the keyboard!!!?? Shit man, you may as well ask to check my bags when I leave a store!!!

Oh I check your bags.

I check them good and hard.

Nov 18, 2009#10

Dave

TotalFusionOne said:
Fail parody thread is fail.

Maybe. But then again maybe you've just hit on something that most of us feel strongly about.

Nov 18, 2009#11

TotalFusionOne

Dave;301517][quote=TotalFusionOne said:
Fail parody thread is fail.

Maybe. But then again maybe you've just hit on something that most of us feel strongly about.[/QUOTE]

Call me Mr. Cohen.

I actually do find it interesting how strongly people feel about correct grammar and punctuation, myself included. I hate it when my friends post things in teenybopper language. For instance, I once de-friended someone from facebook (the harshest punishment I could find) for the crime of posting something along the lines of: "OoOoOoOoMG I IZ TIERD fuckhaving to work a couble wit out my boi!!!!!!!!! o wel. 420 bitchez!!!!!"

Needless to say she got a tersely worded email after the de-friending.

But even though I feel so anti-text speak, I don't know WHY. I try to practice tolerance and understand in all facets of life, why does blatant "ignorism" of arbitrary rules bother me so much? I can't deny that they ARE arbitrary rules that have no real function except for being the rules that most educated people learned, thus making it easier to understand comprehensive ideas. But if the point of the message is getting across to the audience I don't know why I have such a problem with it.

Nov 18, 2009#12

@Li3n

Meh, in a couple of hundred years all the text in this forum will be written wrong by the rules that they'll have... it's how language works...

TotalFusionOne said:
My next debate will either be: "When did Colour become Color?"

When some self-righteous american decided y'all could do without complicated stuff like words with too many vowels.

Nov 18, 2009#13

Baerdog

God bless America!

:usa:

Nov 18, 2009#14

Chazwozel

Dave said:
I detest what the internet and especially cell phone texting has done to what people perceive is allowed in communication. For example, my 20+ niece put this yesterday on her Facebook page:

At WrK..GoT ScHoOl In ThE Am..ThEn To ThE ObGyN FoR SoMe TeStS...ThEn BaK To WrK In ThE Pm

Click to expand...

My response:

Hopefully school teaches you rules of capitalization and punctuation. Dork.

Click to expand...

And they look at this as something totally acceptable and correct, but is really just laziness.

I it harder to abbreviate words than it is to just fucking type them out, but good gravy capitalizing between every letter??!?!?

---------- Post added at 10:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:21 AM ----------

Seraphyn said:
I get text talk, when you're actually texting. On forums and such however, you have both the time and space to just type out your thoughts in a normal comprehensible manner, why not put in that little bit of effort in order to not come across as a total moron?

I can understand the whole "txting" thing too. You only get so many characters.

Nov 18, 2009#15

Covar

I can understand the whole "txting" thing too. You only get so many characters.

If you can't fit all of your message into a text without having to resort to abbreviations and items like 'u' and 'ur' then pick up the damn phone and call the person.

Nov 18, 2009#16

Dave

Oh and for the record I did notice that you intentionally misspelled "accessibility" but chose not to say anything.

Nov 18, 2009#17

klew

I blame this guy

Nov 18, 2009#18

Dave

African American actor Wesley Snipes?

Nov 18, 2009#19

Chazwozel

Covar said:
I can understand the whole "txting" thing too. You only get so many characters.

Click to expand...

If you can't fit all of your message into a text without having to resort to abbreviations and items like 'u' and 'ur' then pick up the damn phone and call the person.

Well if you're like me, you don't like having conversations on the 8:30 train when it's deathly quiet.

---------- Post added at 11:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:12 AM ----------

Dave said:
African American actor Wesley Snipes?

Haha Dave, look up New Jersey Nick on youtube and you'll get all his crazy ads.

ZUUUUNNNEEEEEEE

Nov 18, 2009#20

Dave

Chazwozel;301581][quote=Dave said:
African American actor Wesley Snipes?

Haha Dave, look up New Jersey Nick on youtube and you'll get all his crazy ads.

ZUUUUNNNEEEEEEE[/QUOTE]

I'm SO glad you got that! Otherwise I just looked like a racist bastard.

Nov 18, 2009#21

ElJuski

Of course he got that. He posted that video.

As for the language thing...well, of course language changes, but the most important thing is that people can still effectively and efficiently communicate. So, context, context, context.

However, all that bullshit internet talk and lax social-writing really fucks these kids hard when they're supposed to write papers, memos, and professional e-mails. My prof laments a student who wrote her an e-mail with a lowercase 'u'.

Bcuz, u kno, at soem point ppl gunna lok atchu liek n adlt j00 dumass fukn kidz

Nov 18, 2009#22

Chazwozel

ElJuski said:
Of course he got that. He posted that video.

As for the language thing...well, of course language changes, but the most important thing is that people can still effectively and efficiently communicate. So, context, context, context.

However, all that bullshit internet talk and lax social-writing really fucks these kids hard when they're supposed to write papers, memos, and professional e-mails. My prof laments a student who wrote her an e-mail with a lowercase 'u'.

Bcuz, u kno, at soem point ppl gunna lok atchu liek n adlt j00 dumass fukn kidz

Well that's the long and short of it folks. Your fucking iPhone consumerist society may say it's okay to use text speak, but the professional world says otherwise.

Writing is a lot like verbal communication. I speak a certain way at work, and another way around my kids and yet another way around certain friends. Context ftw bitches!

Nov 18, 2009#23

North_Ranger

Oh, I think it's perfectly fine that people are more relaxed about tolerating spelling errors and omitting punctuation.

It makes target practice so much easier.

Nov 18, 2009#24

HowDroll

Until the end of the Great Vowel Shift in the 1700s, spelling was almost completely irrelevant to the English language. People merely spelled things how they sounded.

From Chaucer:
Whan that Auerth wt his shoures soote,
The droghte of Marcħ, hath perced to the roote;
And bathed euery veyne in swich lycour,
Of which vertu engendred is the flour;

It's funny how, in the age of online, readily-accessible dictionaries and spelling bees, we're slowly seeing a decline in the other direction. Trust me, in another 100 years, we'll be back to Chaucer.

Nov 18, 2009#25

@Li3n

HowDroll said:
People merely spelled things how they sounded.

Phonetic spelling is awesome and i for one am very glad that when my country went back to using latin characters (from church slavonic) for spelling the guys on the side of phonetic spelling won.

Nov 18, 2009#26

CynicismKills

My mom's cell phone has a mini-keyboard thing, she basically types on a computer for a living, but she still sends texts spelled like "can u cal me when u get a chance." It baffles me, because she's better with grammar and spelling than most people I know.

Nov 18, 2009#27

Armadillo

Am I the only person on Earth who writes his texts with proper spelling, punctuation, grammar, and syntax? If it's worth typing, it's worth typing correctly, you lazy punks.

Nov 18, 2009#28

IronBrig4

One of my friends teaches eighth grade. His kids write essays in the same manner with which they text. It's retarded, and writing like a retard shouldn't be tolerated outside of your cell phone's text box. And if there are less Internet writers as a result, then I applaud it; most of the fan fiction out there is positively fulsome. We should use education to eradicate most of this vile populism, not encourage it.

I'm not positive, but I have reason to believe the general decline in high culture has something to do with people writing like LOLcats. Since it started becoming acceptable to write like a complete moron, more and more brainless shows have ruined the History Channel, the Learning Channel, and A&E. When was the last time they showed anything educational?

Nov 18, 2009#29

ElJuski

Armadillo said:
Am I the only person on Earth who writes his texts with proper spelling, punctuation, grammar, and syntax? If it's worth typing, it's worth typing correctly, you lazy punks.

I don't know if you know the things I deem worth typing.

Nov 18, 2009#30

Rob King

I text like I'm writing in English too, Armadillo. But there are certain people I accept text-talk from, my mother chief among them. If I had to wait for her to write a complete sentence, I would never hear from her.

As for the argument that in a century we'll be typing an English that looks much more similar to text-talk, I disagree. The bastion of the English language is academia, and this shit simply will not fly there. There will be changes, but all of this 1337speak and/or text-talk will not be assimilated. I would bet my life on it.

Nov 18, 2009#31

rabbitgod

HowDroll said:
Until the end of the Great Vowel Shift in the 1700s, spelling was almost completely irrelevant to the English language. People merely spelled things how they sounded.

From Chaucer:
Whan that Auerth wt his shoures soote,
The droghte of Marcħ, hath perced to the roote;
And bathed euery veyne in swich lycour,
Of which vertu engendred is the flour;

It's funny how, in the age of online, readily-accessible dictionaries and spelling bees, we're slowly seeing a decline in the other direction. Trust me, in another 100 years, we'll be back to Chaucer.

+1 to this.

Holy crap, I've been reading a lot of letters from New England colonists back to their families and good lord the spelling and grammar is terrible.

Nov 18, 2009#32

Bowielee

IronBrig4 said:
One of my friends teaches eighth grade. His kids write essays in the same manner with which they text. It's retarded, and writing like a retard shouldn't be tolerated outside of your cell phone's text box. And if there are less Internet writers as a result, then I applaud it; most of the fan fiction out there is positively fulsome. We should use education to eradicate most of this vile populism, not encourage it.

I'm not positive, but I have reason to believe the general decline in high culture has something to do with people writing like LOLcats. Since it started becoming acceptable to write like a complete moron, more and more brainless shows have ruined the History Channel, the Learning Channel, and A&E. When was the last time they showed anything educational?

What brainless shows are you talking about? Out of the channels listed, the only one I watch with any regularity is The History Channel and I don't see anything on there that's brainless.

Nov 18, 2009#33

nufan

So I can go all grammar queen up in these boards? Sweet.

Texting is a form of communication slowly building it's own accepted 'rules'. Now those so-called-rules are sliding into every other form of the written word. I love the "It's the way things are" and "It's how everyone is doing it man", "Don't be a narc, you narc" excuses. Please stop using other peoples idiocy to blame you're own laziness.

I don't care how you text or spell but if you expect me to understand it we both have to use the same rules.

Nov 18, 2009#34

Rose

nufan said:
Please stop using other peoples idiocy to blame you're own laziness.

You can be the grammar queen if you fix this sentence

Nov 18, 2009#35

Allen, who is Quiet

If I leave the sentence as is but just complain about it, can I be the grammar princess?

Nov 18, 2009#36

Rose

Allen said:
If I leave the sentence as is but just complain about it, can I be the grammar princess?

Yes, but you have to bring your own tiara. The board is on a budget until the new fiscal year.

Nov 18, 2009#37

Allen, who is Quiet

I hate that sentence so much. It's like, learn the difference between the contraction and the second-person possessive. It just makes me want to :explode:

Yay, I'm a princess.

Nov 18, 2009#38

figmentPez

Bad spelling didn't hold back Shakespeare.

The man added 1,700 words to the English language, but couldn't even spell his own name consistently.

Nov 18, 2009#39

IronBrig4

Bowielee said:
What brainless shows are you talking about? Out of the channels listed, the only one I watch with any regularity is The History Channel and I don't see anything on there that's brainless.

Nov 18, 2009#40

Soliloquy

I think that wanting people to spell things correctly is similar to wanting people to dress nice on certain occasions. The rules of spelling and the rules of fashion are similarly arbitrary, but the fact that you took the time to obey them show people that you actually care, and therefore might be worth paying attention to.

Nov 18, 2009#41

nufan

Keep your pants on Allen, I know the difference. I mistyped it once and you're frothing.

Yay I can do it!

And to correct you... nah I won't do it

Allen said:
I hate that sentence so much. It's like, learn the difference between the contraction and the second-person possessive. It just makes me want to :explode:

Yay, I'm a princess.

Nov 18, 2009#42

Allen, who is Quiet

yes, never correct the princess. If you do, :raspberry:

Actual thoughts on grammar, spelling, and text speak:

As long as people can understand what it is you're saying, I don't think it matters that much. Sure, there are situations that call for more formal language, so it's best to be formal. In casual conversation, language shouldn't really be a hindrance to getting your point across. No need for all your t's to be crossed and your i's to be dotted.

Only text speak in the proper channels for it, and if you deviate too hard from grammar and spelling, then your language can really get in the way of meaning. So use it when texting, and don't abbreviate everything.

Nov 18, 2009#43

Reboneer

Seraphyn said:
I get text talk, when you're actually texting.

I don't. Pretty much every phone these days has predictive text, so talking like a retard is no faster, and often actually slower. The only advantage might be for trying to cram really long messages into however many characters... but by that stage, you may as well just call the person, it'll be quicker.

Nov 18, 2009#44

Chazwozel

HowDroll said:
Until the end of the Great Vowel Shift in the 1700s, spelling was almost completely irrelevant to the English language. People merely spelled things how they sounded.

From Chaucer:
Whan that Auerth wt his shoures soote,
The droghte of Marcħ, hath perced to the roote;
And bathed euery veyne in swich lycour,
Of which vertu engendred is the flour;

It's funny how, in the age of online, readily-accessible dictionaries and spelling bees, we're slowly seeing a decline in the other direction. Trust me, in another 100 years, we'll be back to Chaucer.

Oh God! Nightmares from my Chaucer class in undergrad! A POX ON YOU WOMAN. A POX I SAY!

Actually... I really enjoyed that class...

Nov 18, 2009#45

ElJuski

IronBrig4;301977][quote=Bowielee said:
What brainless shows are you talking about? Out of the channels listed, the only one I watch with any regularity is The History Channel and I don't see anything on there that's brainless.

Those inane shows about ICE ROAD TRUCKERS and LUMBERJACKS. The History Channel used to show a lot more intelligent stuff like Civil War Journal, The Real West, and In Search of History. Even their endless World War Two programming had some redeeming qualities to it. The Learning Channel only shows stuff like A Baby Story and A Wedding Story now. As for A&E, that network sold its soul to populism. They used to produce Horatio Hornblower and movies like The Lost Battalion. Now it's just reality shows and biographies of celebrities who aren't even dead yet.

This is an age where the dirty masses are dictating what's cool and what's not. You know we've hit a cultural low point when millions flock to Michael Bay films but don't even know who Michael Curtiz was. I am disposed towards giving them a right good thrashing with my swagger stick. Elitism isn't always a bad thing. Perhaps we need more elitism to put these troglodytes in their place. In short, fuck the uncultured philistines who cannot be bothered to use decent English because they wouldn't know high culture if it painted itself purple and danced naked on top of a harpsichord, singing "High culture is here again!"[/QUOTE]

Holy shit you just came off like a pompous fuckhead. You know, there's interesting merit to shows like ICEROAD TRUCKERS even though it may be catering to something more "low brow". Stop pretending like you're better than everybody because you have some knowledge and academic eagerness shoved up your ass.

It is quite possible to enjoy the less intellectual bits of life and still be an intelligent human being. It's responses like yours that make me want to dig my trench in the pop culture, pointless knowledge side of the lines just because I never want to sound like that, ever.

---------- Post added at 03:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:21 AM ----------

HA! fixed the triple post. Although I totally deleted my sassy Wife of Bath comment

Nov 19, 2009#46

IronBrig4

ElJuski said:
Holy shit you just came off like a pompous fuckhead. You know, there's interesting merit to shows like ICEROAD TRUCKERS even though it may be catering to something more "low brow". Stop pretending like you're better than everybody because you have some knowledge and academic eagerness shoved up your ass.

It is quite possible to enjoy the less intellectual bits of life and still be an intelligent human being. It's responses like yours that make me want to dig my trench in the pop culture, pointless knowledge side of the lines just because I never want to sound like that, ever.

I simply must stop being so horrified.

When every new show becomes Iceroad Truckers or Swamp Loggers we have a problem. Every facet of our culture is now geared towards lowbrow stuff. I'll admit that I can occasionally enjoy some less cerebral stuff. I love Avenue Q but can also enjoy Gilbert & Sullivan. The problem now is ignorance and stupidity are not only accepted, but encouraged. And I cannot abide willful ignorance.

Do not assume that I think I'm better than everybody simply because I have earned a master's degree, because I don't. I know plenty of cultured people who haven't had the good fortune to come across similar opportunities. Knowledge and high culture should be spread, and that's one of the reasons I want to become a professor. If even one person decides to go to a showing of HMS Pinafore instead of watch Transformers 2 because of me, then I will have succeeded.

"There is no wealth like knowledge. No poverty like ignorance." ~ Ali bin Abu-Talib

Nov 19, 2009#47

Troll

Sorry Juski, IronBrig's got a point. Those channels ARE dumbing down the content, and it's depressing as hell. Too many people out there are stupid, and pop culture reflects that.

Nov 19, 2009#48

ElJuski

Oh I can quote bullshit too.

"Life happens too fast for you ever to think about it. If you could just persuade people of this, but they insist on amassing information." -Kurt Vonnegut

"I don't think it would have all got me quite so down if just once in a while--just once in a while--there was at least some polite little perfunctory implication that knowledge should lead to wisdom, and that if it doesn't, it's just a disgusting waste of time!" ~JD Salinger

And IronBrig only has a subjective point. Sure, there's plenty in the world that's really dumb and insipid, but there's only so much "high-brow" you can go before it becomes just as pointless as the "low brow" stuff.

The point I am trying to make is that I'm not kidding myself when I dig into something "cerebral". Sure, we need to cultivate more knowledge and wisdom, but you don't want to end up your own highbrow asshole, either. Sure, fuck Transformers 2. But you know what? Fuck HMS Pinafore. The only thing that boring ass shit did was have me understand a Simpsons quote further.

---------- Post added at 07:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:16 AM ----------

"Just because you can write, and write, and do a little math, doesn't mean you deserve to control the universe". One of the best things Vonnegut talked about was human arrogance and distancing themselves from the core things that make us human. I consider getting so elitist you wind up your own asshole just another egregious error people make.

---------- Post added at 07:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:17 AM ----------

A Troll said:
Sorry Juski, IronBrig's got a point. Those channels ARE dumbing down the content, and it's depressing as hell. Too many people out there are stupid, and pop culture reflects that.

I also forgot to check my "DUMBING-DOWN-O-METER"; I think it may be broken. What are the numbers on yours reading?

Nov 19, 2009#49

Troll

ElJuski said:
[/COLOR]

A Troll said:

Sorry Juski, IronBrig's got a point. Those channels ARE dumbing down the content, and it's depressing as hell. Too many people out there are stupid, and pop culture reflects that.

Click to expand...

I also forgot to check my "DUMBING-DOWN-O-METER"; I think it may be broken. What are the numbers on yours reading?

Mine isn't working at the moment. I'm getting too much interference from my "ASSHOLE-O-METER," which is going wild right now.

Nov 19, 2009#50

North_Ranger

Everybody put their meters away. Slowly...

Nov 19, 2009#51

IronBrig4

"A wise man in the company of those who are ignorant has been compared by the sages to a beautiful girl in the company of blind men." ~ Saadi

"Is it not pleasant to learn with a constant perseverance and application?" ~ Confucius

Of course I understand there is need for some mindless entertainment now and then. After all, it relaxes the mind. The problem is the preponderance of new entertainment is the most puerile, lowbrow crap. Take a serious look at the decline in our educational TV programs. The only network that even barely maintains intelligent programming is Discovery. People used to be able to quote Shakespeare, and now most don't even which country he was from.

And if somebody expresses even a slight interest in learning, then I am the most accommodating, patient instructor. While a true elitist asshole cloisters himself like a hermit in the ivory tower, I love getting new roommates.

And my "Dumbing-Down-O-Meter" broke long ago, probably around the time "Wife Swap" premiered on TV. I just use it as a paperweight now.

Nov 19, 2009#52

Chazwozel

IronBrig4 said:
"A wise man in the company of those who are ignorant has been compared by the sages to a beautiful girl in the company of blind men." ~ Saadi

"Is it not pleasant to learn with a constant perseverance and application?" ~ Confucius

Of course I understand there is need for some mindless entertainment now and then. After all, it relaxes the mind. The problem is the preponderance of new entertainment is the most puerile, lowbrow crap. Take a serious look at the decline in our educational TV programs. The only network that even barely maintains intelligent programming is Discovery. People used to be able to quote Shakespeare, and now most don't even which country he was from.

And if somebody expresses even a slight interest in learning, then I am the most accommodating, patient instructor. While a true elitist asshole cloisters himself like a hermit in the ivory tower, I love getting new roommates.

And my "Dumbing-Down-O-Meter" broke long ago, probably around the time "Wife Swap" premiered on TV. I just use it as a paperweight now.

I used to enjoy watching surgeries on TLC, now the only thing you can catch is Jon and Kate plus Eight.

Discovery is still alright, but there's only so much crab fishing that a person can take.

No only is there a dumbing down in America, there's a push towards willful ignorance and staunch anti-intellectualism. It's kinda scary when you see such a huge push for creationism to be taught in the science classroom.

Nov 19, 2009#53

Ross

brb... Bing Bang Theory and Numb3rs (as just two recent examples).

Yes, there's lots of low-brow shows popping up, but there's still new intellectual stuff coming in. TV used to have to cater to everyone, but as we see our culture develop, more niche shows are starting to show up. We're seeing more low-brow shows because that's what the general (read: non-geek) people want to see.

And admit it, you all like some of the low-brow shows, too

Nov 19, 2009#54

Dusty668

I wanna see a crab driving a truck.

Nov 19, 2009#55

redapples

teh inturnets and txtng hz killd wrIting warez Ur evidense?

http://www.davidcrystal.com/

Nov 19, 2009#56

Chazwozel

redapples said:
teh inturnets and txtng hz killd wrIting warez Ur evidense?

http://www.davidcrystal.com/

For every David Crystal there are 100,000 http://www.ratemypoo.com

Nov 19, 2009#57

ElJuski

A Troll;302208][quote=ElJuski said:
[/COLOR]

A Troll said:

Sorry Juski, IronBrig's got a point. Those channels ARE dumbing down the content, and it's depressing as hell. Too many people out there are stupid, and pop culture reflects that.

Click to expand...

I also forgot to check my "DUMBING-DOWN-O-METER"; I think it may be broken. What are the numbers on yours reading?

Mine isn't working at the moment. I'm getting too much interference from my "ASSHOLE-O-METER," which is going wild right now.[/QUOTE]

Hey no shit mine's going haywire too! FUNNY HOW THAT WORKS.

Yeah, there's a lot of dumb people in this world, but there's also the assumption that those concepts you're willing to instruct people upon so dutifully are things that are actually of importance. And as for the dumbing down of America, I haven't seen any real wonderful examples. So, uh, there's some more Ice Road Trucking shows going on. And apparently Wife Swap is still going. What did you expect?

Your little ivory tower is one of thousands; despite your actively wanting people to learn your singular wonderful way of living, how many people are taking that offer? Not surprising, and I'm not considering the people who are acting willfully ignorant.

Nov 19, 2009#58

redapples

Chazwozel;302249][quote=redapples said:
teh inturnets and txtng hz killd wrIting warez Ur evidense?

http://www.davidcrystal.com/

For every David Crystal there are 100,000 http://www.ratemypoo.com[/QUOTE]

Your point? They both look like real science from here.

Nov 19, 2009#59

Soliloquy

Ross said:
brb... Bing Bang Theory and Numb3rs (as just two recent examples).

Yes, there's lots of low-brow shows popping up, but there's still new intellectual stuff coming in. TV used to have to cater to everyone, but as we see our culture develop, more niche shows are starting to show up. We're seeing more low-brow shows because that's what the general (read: non-geek) people want to see.

And admit it, you all like some of the low-brow shows, too

Does anyone else here hate Numb3rs? It's just your standard, predictable cop show, only some guy shows up to spout math-ese every once in a while.

I mean, I guess it's better than most TV, intellectually, but I was hoping it'd be so much more than that when it first came out.

Nov 19, 2009#60

Covar

People used to be able to quote Shakespeare, and now most don't even which country he was from.

Talk about lowbrow entertainment catering to the masses.

Nov 19, 2009#61

Soliloquy

Covar said:
People used to be able to quote Shakespeare, and now most don't even which country he was from.

Click to expand...

Talk about lowbrow entertainment catering to the masses.

Nov 19, 2009#62

ElJuski

Well, and the funny thing is, is that people are spouting off "intelligent shows" as the ones being specifically math and science based. Numb3rs has numb3rs! That's for smart people! Whereas nobody dares mention something like Mad Men, which is pure art. But, alas, it's not The Faerie Queene or neuro-science.

Nov 19, 2009#63

Bowielee

Soliloquy;302519][quote=Covar said:
People used to be able to quote Shakespeare, and now most don't even which country he was from.

Click to expand...

Talk about lowbrow entertainment catering to the masses.

Nov 19, 2009#64

IronBrig4

Bowielee said:
Actually at the time they were performed, his plays WERE considered lowbrow humor.

True, but unlike modern TV, his plays also required the audience to have an attention span greater than ten minutes.

Nov 19, 2009#65

ElJuski

IronBrig4;302579][quote=Bowielee said:
Actually at the time they were performed, his plays WERE considered lowbrow humor.

True, but unlike modern TV, his plays also required the audience to have an attention span greater than ten minutes.[/QUOTE]

Here's a simple list of television shows from this decade that are fantastic and require an attention span greater than ten minutes...

http://www.avclub.com/articles/the-best-tv-series-of-the-00s,35256/

Nov 19, 2009#66

The Lovely Boehner

Well, Juice's AV Club list kind of cut off my entire post at the knees, BUT

The Wire and Mad Men and The Sopranos (probably the best show at mixing 'lowbrow' and 'high art') and Arrested Development sure are more complex and interesting than I Love Lucy and Dick Van Dyke ever aspired to be.

Nov 19, 2009#67

IronBrig4

ElJuski said:
Here's a simple list of television shows from this decade that are fantastic and require an attention span greater than ten minutes...

http://www.avclub.com/articles/the-best-tv-series-of-the-00s,35256/

Quite. But notice how one-third of them are HBO programs and are thus more exclusive. Anyways, these shows are the exception rather than the rule. When I'm channel surfing I feel like I should watch my step to avoid getting popular culture on my shoes.

And I'm not saying 1950s programs such as I Love Lucy are better. There's a reason contemporary critics dubbed TV "The Idiot Box." But there certainly was a wealth of educational programming that mysteriously began to vanish about ten years ago. First The Learning Channel, then A&E, now the History Channel have all fallen to the demands of the lowbrow crowd.

Nov 19, 2009#68

@Li3n

Bowielee;302541][quote=Soliloquy;302519][quote=Covar said:
People used to be able to quote Shakespeare, and now most don't even which country he was from.

Click to expand...

Talk about lowbrow entertainment catering to the masses.

Nov 19, 2009#69

ElJuski

oh dear lord please don't get pop culture on your shoes

Nov 19, 2009#70

Bowielee

@Li3n;302666][quote=Bowielee;302541][quote=Soliloquy;302519][quote=Covar said:
People used to be able to quote Shakespeare, and now most don't even which country he was from.

Click to expand...

Talk about lowbrow entertainment catering to the masses.

Yeah, that's the funny thing, isn't it? Shakespeare's works are filled to the brim with sex jokes and pop culture references, and yet he still manages to make his plays touch on some of the fundamental issues of human existence.

What today needs, I think, is a modern version of Shakespeare. Someone who isn't afraid to mix highbrow ideas with crowd-pleasing lowbrow humor.[/quote]

Actually at the time they were performed, his plays WERE considered lowbrow humour.[/quote]

No, they where considered too accessible, which made all the nobles queasy.. and as i recall some people objected to him mixing tragedy with comedy and other stuff like that. But he was never considered the "fart jokes guy".[/QUOTE]

"An old black ram is tupping your white ewe." is pretty lowbrow when you take out the fancy language, as is most of his stuff.

"Some black dude is screwing your daughter." would be the most direct interpretation.

He played fast and loose with sex and sexuality. Just because he used flowery language doesn't change the content.

BTW, I freakin' LOVE Othello.

My main point, however, was that his stuff was the pop culture of the time.

Nov 19, 2009#71

@Li3n

Bowielee said:
"An old black ram is tupping your white ewe." is pretty lowbrow when you take out the fancy language, as is most of his stuff.

"Some black dude is screwing your daughter." would be the most direct interpretation.

He played fast and loose with sex and sexuality. Just because he used flowery language doesn't change the content.

So now sexual innuendo can't be high brow?! I think you're confusing it with puritanism.

Nov 19, 2009#72

IronBrig4

ElJuski said:
oh dear lord please don't get pop culture on your shoes

Yeah I know, right? It takes forever to scrub off and only seems to spread.

Nov 19, 2009#73

ElJuski

It's just sad that you can't seem to take pleasure in barely anything. There might be a lot of dumb people and dumb things in the world, but there's still plenty of fun to be had. BUT, I guess that's an opinion neither of us will change.

Have fun with your inflated elitist ego *tips hat*

Nov 19, 2009#74

@Li3n

Are you implying he's not having fun complaining about how trite and pedestrian everything is getting?

Nov 19, 2009#75

IronBrig4

ElJuski said:
It's just sad that you can't seem to take pleasure in barely anything. There might be a lot of dumb people and dumb things in the world, but there's still plenty of fun to be had. BUT, I guess that's an opinion neither of us will change.

Have fun with your inflated elitist ego *tips hat*

Since when did a disdain for popular culture imply an inability to have fun? I have tons of fun in many different venues. But entertainment shouldn't have to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

*puts on powdered wig and dinner jacket and strides down the street whilst using a swagger stick to scatter the filthy guttersnipes before him*

Nov 19, 2009#76

Bowielee

IronBrig4;302801][quote=ElJuski said:
It's just sad that you can't seem to take pleasure in barely anything. There might be a lot of dumb people and dumb things in the world, but there's still plenty of fun to be had. BUT, I guess that's an opinion neither of us will change.

Have fun with your inflated elitist ego *tips hat*

Since when did a disdain for popular culture imply an inability to have fun? I have tons of fun in many different venues. But entertainment shouldn't have to appeal to the lowest common denominator.[/QUOTE]

It shouldn't have to always appeal to the highest either. There's a place for lowbrow and highbrow.

I enjoy The Importance of Being Earnest, but I also enjoy American Pie.

Extremism in anything shows a lack of growth and adaptation.

Nov 19, 2009#77

IronBrig4

Well yeah, but nearly everything in modern American culture is being geared towards the lowest. There also seems to be a strong anti-intellectual movement in the US, of which creationism is merely a subset.

Nov 19, 2009#78

ElJuski

You have absolutely NO measure of this except for your extreme bias...

Nov 20, 2009#79

redapples

View from across the pond:

We get the HBO content for free.
P.U.B.L.I.C L.I.B.R.A.R.I.E.S
Oprah Winfrey (we [STRIKE]have [/STRIKE] had our own version - Richard & Judy- which recommended Cloud Atlas!)
Read any comics lately (Y, The Unwritten of the top of my head)
Steven Soderbergh

So not every thing in America is aimed towards the lowest.

When I look at TV over here we have X-Factor (like American Idol) Britain's Got Talent, candid camera type shows and the like. But there is also lots on every night that is thought provoking. I refuse to believe that this is not true in America also, my holidays there would suggest I'm right.

Last night at between 9 and 10 we had on free to air TV (with the caveat that an annual licence is required at £142)
A charity Rock Concert
A nature program about snakes
I'm a Celebrity give me cash (ITV is the worst channel we have)
A documentary about an immigrant having his delusions shattered when he becomes a traffic Warden (meter maid)
In the Line of Fire
Collateral Damage
Embarrassing Illnesses (sounds cheaper than it is - actually a serious public health program)
Scrubs x2
Babel
The world strictest parents (yeah it is a trashy as it sounds - troubled teen sent to Africa/Utah/South Africa...)
A History of Christianity - Very good series.
Kids do the funniest Things
A Touch of Frost - TV Detective Show
Grand Slam Darts
Road Wars
QI - comedy Quiz with Stephen Fry
Dieing to Sleep - a moving [STRIKE]documentary [/STRIKE] freak show about fatal insomnia
Knight Rider (new version)
Grime Fighters
Street Crime UK!
Friends x2
Himalaya With Michael Palin

This is not an unusual evening. Sure there is a lot to catch the attention of the lowest common denominator but there's also a lot of choice.

Nov 20, 2009#80

Chazwozel

IronBrig4 said:
Well yeah, but nearly everything in modern American culture is being geared towards the lowest. There also seems to be a strong anti-intellectual movement in the US, of which creationism is merely a subset.

Nov 20, 2009#81

Bowielee

Chazwozel;303020][quote=IronBrig4 said:
Well yeah, but nearly everything in modern American culture is being geared towards the lowest. There also seems to be a strong anti-intellectual movement in the US, of which creationism is merely a subset.

[/QUOTE]

I love the irony of that movie. A movie that claims that dick and fart jokes will be the downfall of society using dick and fart jokes for the majority of the humor.

Nov 20, 2009#82

nufan

Hey juski... if someone thinks your hate of transformers makes you a high brow movie snob with an inflated ego how does that make you feel?

Nov 20, 2009#83

IronBrig4

Idiocracy is exactly what I was thinking. Mike Judge is practically a prophet. I would also suggest reading "Who Killed Homer?" It's about how high culture has been eroded in the US.

Nov 20, 2009#84

Necronic

Ow my balls!

Ratemypoo is a fascinating expose on the burgeoning absurdist subcultures springing up throughout the world.

Plus one of my boys has an 8.5 on there. Never been more proud.

I think there is nothing wrong with enjoying simple things along with enjoying more complicated things. I can work for hours on an excel macro for a complicated control chart and really enjoy it, and then on my drive home I can rock out to some top 40, then study some linear programming, and then take a break and check out ratemypoo.

If someone devotes all of their energy to the simple things, then yeah, that may be a problem. But the same goes in the other direction as well. We need our intricate as well as our abstract.

On that note, I will go read Dr McNinja

Edit: Specifically to the grammar issue. I have mixed feelings on it. On the one hand, people should strive to communicate in a clear and concise manner, on the other hand people like me and Chaz could be massive douchebags and make fun of people who use the terms "Energy" or "Dimensions" for anything other than their intended purpose.

Would you like it if scientists started constantly pointing out how you all are choosing to become massive r-word.org? I mean, at least we have the justification that the ignorance of the general populace is actually seriously dangerous to society.

Nov 20, 2009#85

Soliloquy

IronBrig4 said:
Idiocracy is exactly what I was thinking. Mike Judge is practically a prophet. I would also suggest reading "Who Killed Homer?" It's about how high culture has been eroded in the US.

Nov 20, 2009#86

Necronic

The whole elitism thing really is a myopic view. I have met rednecks missing teeth with profound views on the world, and sat with PhDs from Berkley and heard some of the most idiotic things come out of their mouths.

Assuming someone is a fool is the fastest way to become one yourself.

Nov 20, 2009#87

IronBrig4

Necronic said:
The whole elitism thing really is a myopic view. I have met rednecks missing teeth with profound views on the world, and sat with PhDs from Berkley and heard some of the most idiotic things come out of their mouths.

Assuming someone is a fool is the fastest way to become one yourself.

Maybe so, but I've never met an intelligent "woo girl." And I never said that possession of a degree can make anybody smarter. My point is that appreciation of high culture has gone down the drain, and that cannot be denied. When Edward Murrow ended his famous "See It Now" episode about McCarthy, he finished it with a quote from Shakespeare's Julius Caesar. And people back then knew exactly what he was talking about.

Nov 20, 2009#88

Necronic

What are you even basing that on? Was there a study about that quote and people's ability to understand it, or are you just guessing? Cause that seems like you're just guessing.

And maybe, maybe, MAYBE you are just guessing that all woo girls are idiots. I've met some that are pretty damned intellegent, and others that are pretty wise. Just because they fit some self proclaimed stereotype of stupidity doesn't mean they are.

Nov 23, 2009#89

redapples

Here's a quote for you. It is a good thing to follow the First Law of Holes: if you are in one, stop digging.

The above obviously does not apply to those in the Adult Entertainment Industry.

Nov 23, 2009#90

@Li3n

Necronic said:
What are you even basing that on? Was there a study about that quote and people's ability to understand it, or are you just guessing? Cause that seems like you're just guessing.

Perception wise it probably seems like less people know Shakespeare because more and more people are actually getting an education, so there's more people one expects to know it...

But let's be honest, when was the last time anyone ran a campaign based on (among other things) the fact that the other guy was too educated?!

Nov 25, 2009#91

Adammon

@Li3n said:
But let's be honest, when was the last time anyone ran a campaign based on (among other things) the fact that the other guy was too educated?!

Harper v Ignatieff - 2009 Canadian Politics

Nov 25, 2009#92

figmentPez

What the Duck #848

Forums