Export thread

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/disney_world_srich_kid_outrage_zTBA0xrvZRkIVc1zItXGDP

Apparently, wealthy Manhattan families are now using a tour service for Disney World. Not bad by itself. Nothing to make the blood boil.

The tour service provides a handicapped individual to pose as a family member allowing the already privileged folks (though morally bankrupt) to skip to the head of the line at the attractions. The cost of this service, which is only available through referral, runs over $1,000 a day.

Let that one sink in. These people, in order to avoid standing in line with everyone else, pay tremendous sums of money to fake a handicapped relative and scoot to the front. It just boggles the mind how terrible people really are. As someone with a handicapped brother, it literally boils my blood to read about this. I just...I just don't even know what to say, other than I really hope this is some sort of hoax, but it probably isn't...

I was pretty pissed at this, too. When my sister was in remission from her cancer, she made a trip to WDW with my parents and one of my other sisters. She couldn't have enjoyed that trip nearly as much without special treatment, and it makes me sick to think that perfectly healthy people are taking advantage of the policy.

Zappit said:

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/disney_world_srich_kid_outrage_zTBA0xrvZRkIVc1zItXGDP

Apparently, wealthy Manhattan families are now using a tour service for Disney World. Not bad by itself. Nothing to make the blood boil.

The tour service provides a handicapped individual to pose as a family member allowing the already privileged folks (though morally bankrupt) to skip to the head of the line at the attractions. The cost of this service, which is only available through referral, runs over $1,000 a day.

Let that one sink in. These people, in order to avoid standing in line with everyone else, pay tremendous sums of money to fake a handicapped relative and scoot to the front. It just boggles the mind how terrible people really are. As someone with a handicapped brother, it literally boils my blood to read about this. I just...I just don't even know what to say, other than I really hope this is some sort of hoax, but it probably isn't...

Click to expand...

Well, look at the flip side. A disabled person gets to go to Disneyland for free and get paid for it.

This is horrendous, but the only thing I can think of is whether someone'll cut off their own leg just so they can get paid to go to Disneyland.

Ravenpoe said:

Well, look at the flip side. A disabled person gets to go to Disneyland for free and get paid for it.

Click to expand...

Unless Disney cracks down on the offenders and makes everyone jumps through hoops to get special access.

Really, there are other ways to do it. You wanna get in that way, hand a guy ten bucks and a baseball bat. You'll be adequately crippled in five minutes.

This is fucking hilarious.

also eat the rich by the way

Charlie Don't Surf said:

This is fucking hilarious.

also eat the rich by the way

Click to expand...

I'd have expected nothing less.

Charlie Don't Surf said:

This is fucking hilarious.

also eat the rich by the way

Click to expand...

Death penalty and guns = the devil
Rich people exploiting a handicapped person = meh?
I'm confused

Does more to reduce unemployment than Obama.

blotsfan said:

Does more to reduce unemployment than Obama.

Click to expand...

Sorry, you're obviously looking for the Yahoo! message boards.

I read something that disgusted me a little more.

GasBandit said:

I read something that disgusted me a little more.

Click to expand...

Damnit Charlie! Wait.... Wrong person

Since Disney already allows a "fast pass" that costs about $300 per hour, then the issue boils down not to whether they are wealthy or not (since Disney obviously has plans for them) but whether it's ok for a handicapped person to act as a tour guide, knowing that their clients will have preferred access due to their disability.

If I took my family and a handicapped friend of mine we'd get preferred treatment. Does this also make your blood boil?

So then is the only problem that the rich aren't using the fast pass system, but using a cheaper method which happens to involve a disabled tour guide?

stienman said:

If I took my family and a handicapped friend of mine we'd get preferred treatment. Does this also make your blood boil?

Click to expand...

That depends. Did you take your friend for the sole purpose of preferred treatment (which my phone auto corrected into perverted) if so then yes that's lazy and exploitative if that wasn't your sole/main purpose then have a blast and what not

CrimsonSoul said:

That depends. Did you take your friend for the sole purpose of preferred treatment (which my phone auto corrected into perverted) if so then yes that's lazy and exploitative if that wasn't your sole/main purpose then have a blast and what not

Click to expand...

So it's important to understand the reason in order to pass judgement? The act in and of itself is not wrong, but the state of mind of the person committing the act determines whether it's ok or wrong? In which case, the handicapped person who is renting out their services is as much at fault (and therefore "disgusting") as the family paying for their services, if not more disgusting.

stienman said:

So it's important to understand the reason in order to pass judgement? The act in and of itself is not wrong, but the state of mind of the person committing the act determines whether it's ok or wrong? In which case, the handicapped person who is renting out their services is as much at fault (and therefore "disgusting") as the family paying for their services, if not more disgusting.

Click to expand...

If the whole point of the" service" that is being offered is so that you can skip in line then yes, if they are running a legitimate business and are simply being exploited by the rich then no they aren't just as bad.

stienman - You have to be playing devil's advocate. There's no way you can't understand the wrongness behind this.

Of course it's sleezy and wrong, but I'm having a hard time putting the wrongness into words, so yes, I'm playing devils advocate in order to force others to identify exactly why it's wrong. Hopefully in not too many words.

The best I've been able to come up with is:

It's wrong that people of privilege are using a rule that's meant to aid those at a severe disadvantage for personal gain. They already have so much that it's exceptionally selfish to get more by using people who have a disability for their personal gain.

But I can poke a number of holes through that statement, and further it's not so simple that explaining it to a child is easy.

stienman - I think you're focusing on the wrong part. It doesn't matter that they're people of privledge. ANYONE using a disabled person for their own personal gain is disgusting. It's like when someone has a sick relative they collect money for but give them little to none of it, spending most of it on themselves.

CrimsonSoul said:

Death penalty and guns = the devil
Rich people exploiting a handicapped person = meh?
I'm confused

Click to expand...

It's not "meh", I can only laugh at how absurdly mustache-twirling evil this is. "Eat the rich" also isn't meh.

Although I will say that yes, if we're ranking "offenses", people getting fucking killed and their lives ending is higher on my care power rankings than rich people exploiting the handicapped.

Gilgamesh said:

stienman - I think you're focusing on the wrong part. It doesn't matter that they're people of privledge. ANYONE using a disabled person for their own personal gain is disgusting. It's like when someone has a sick relative they collect money for but give them little to none of it, spending most of it on themselves.

Click to expand...

But you're describing a situation where the disabled person has no control over the abuse.

In this case, the disabled person has recognized that they have a unique trait which they may or may not use for their personal gain. They are choosing to rent their services.

So then - who does this hurt? Isn't this more akin to prostitution than to skimming disability checks? Who are we to say what services a disabled person can offer to others?

What if the "disabled" person is faking it, and they aren't actually disabled? Who is being abused? The theme park, sure. Patrons who have to wait in line 3 minutes longer than if they hadn't used the disabled access, sure. But that isn't so "bad" as abusing a disabled person directly - is it still as disgusting?

GasBandit said:

I read something that disgusted me a little more.

Click to expand...

I'm sorry, I just can't help this...

If your blood literally boiled, you'd be dead.

I really tried to hold it in.

I'd say that the disabled people are shitty too.

Bowielee said:

I'm sorry, I just can't help this...

If your blood literally boiled, you'd be dead.

I really tried to hold it in.

Click to expand...

Only if it was still in your body...

Bowielee said:

I'm sorry, I just can't help this...

If your blood literally boiled, you'd be dead.

I really tried to hold it in.

Click to expand...

or you were in the film "The Thing"

Also, as much as it pains me to say it, the "misuse" of literally for emphasis is almost as old as "literally".

fade said:

Also, as much as it pains me to say it, the "misuse" of literally for emphasis is almost as old as "literally".

Click to expand...

I love this quote from that article.

"To get on a soapbox a moment, I find the overuse of hyperbole to be one of the most annoying stylistic shortcomings of contemporary writing, especially in Internet communication. This is a personal peeve about writing, so I don’t expect everyone to fall in line behind me on it, but it explains my personal dislike of non-literal literally."

fade said:

Also, as much as it pains me to say it, the "misuse" of literally for emphasis is almost as old as "literally".

Click to expand...

That is literally the best post on non-literal use of literally that I've ever read.

whenever I say LITERALLY, I'm saying it in the voice of Rob Lowe's Parks & Rec character that I'm blanking on his name right now

Charlie Don't Surf said:

whenever I say LITERALLY, I'm saying it in the voice of Rob Lowe's Parks & Rec character that I'm blanking on his name right now

Click to expand...

Chris Trager. I don't know how you could forget, he's always giving his full name! But also, I do the same thing.

I personally don't think handicapped people should get special treatment. They are people like us and should have to wait in line like everyone else.

Now I'm not the sharpest knife in the crayon box sometimes, but...isn't this essentially fraud? Could someone not sue them for fraudulence?

Chad Sexington said:

Chris Trager. I don't know how you could forget, he's always giving his full name! But also, I do the same thing.

Click to expand...

His character is the only reason I know the full names of the rest of the cast.

I think it's only fraud if they are faking being handicapped. This is more just a kind of... "dick move."

Dave said:

I personally don't think handicapped people should get special treatment. They are people like us and should have to wait in line like everyone else.

Click to expand...

It depends on the disability. There are some disabilities which would preclude waiting in lines for any length of time, which essentially means they cannot enjoy the park like a regular person if they are not given special access to shorter lines.

The American disabilities act requires operators to provide reasonable access to those who may not be able to follow the normal process.

The reality is that if this is actually a problem, all Disney has to do is start using facial recognition on the disabled and keep records so they can't enter the park under different names with different families. Thus a disabled tour guide would only be able to ply their trade maybe once a year under false pretenses.

But this could also simply be a made up story. There's absolutely no confirmation that it has or does happen, just the word of one person who won't even allow their name to be published. It's sensationalistic.

Unfortunately it also means that if it isn't happening that now the idea is widely spread it may start happening, or may happen in greater numbers if it is actually happening.

ThatNickGuy said:

Now I'm not the sharpest knife in the crayon box sometimes, but...isn't this essentially fraud? Could someone not sue them for fraudulence?

Click to expand...

It depends entirely on how the parks accessibility rules are written, how well they comply with local and national disability regulations, how the contract between the tour guide, tour operator, and family is written, and how they present themselves.

If no one lies, and the tour operator is simply "a good friend" and Disney lets them have full access based on that alone, I don't see how there could be a problem.

If they have to create a fake identity for the tour guide in order to have the same last name as the family, or address, in order to defraud disney then there is a possible case.

I think the real problem with this is that if it is true, and if it does become a big problem for Disney, then they will likely change the rules and make it harder for truly disabled and their family to take advantage of the program.

Further, even if it isn't true, the disabled are going to face a lot more discrimination in parks from other guests who may have read the story or heard the myth and assume everyone in a motorized chair is actually fine and is only faking to get special access.

It's not like there isn't precedent.
Legislation gets through all the time, "...for the children."
The rich folks are just the pork-barrel riders on the disabled's coattails.
For you security-minded folks, this is essentially like having the disabled guy badge in and then having the rest slide through before the door finishes closing/resets.

--Patrick

PatrThom said:

It's not like there isn't precedent.
Legislation gets through all the time, "...for the children."
The rich folks are just the pork-barrel riders on the disabled's coattails.
For you security-minded folks, this is essentially like having the disabled guy badge in and then having the rest slide through before the door finishes closing/resets.

--Patrick

Click to expand...

Except in this point it's a business that is saying, "Pay us and we'll give you a disabled guy with a badge."

Dave said:

Except in this point it's a business that is saying, "Pay us and we'll give you a disabled guy with a badge."

Click to expand...

Right, but that business is not Disney. The World has a loooong history of entrepreneurs seeing a need, and then filling it with a business model. Aereo and their thousands of tiny antennae, Gold farmers, or even people you pay to 'take cuts' for you*. It's not illegal, just taking advantage of their God-given right to exploit loopholes, that's all.

--Patrick
*At the time I created the link, their website bandwidth had been exceeded, which may indicated the level of demand for such a service.

Honestly, I think this is worse because its not just taking advantage of a loophole, its taking advantage of a loophole that only exists because they want to be nice and inclusive. If this is true and I'm Disney, I just have a sitting waiting area for disabled people to sit if they can't stand for an hour, where they can wait until their spot comes up.

blotsfan said:

Honestly, I think this is worse because its not just taking advantage of a loophole, its taking advantage of a loophole that only exists because they want to be nice and inclusive. If this is true and I'm Disney, I just have a sitting waiting area for disabled people to sit if they can't stand for an hour, where they can wait until their spot comes up.

Click to expand...

I have absolutely no problem with this for someone who's only physically disabled - a wheelchair, being blind or deaf or similar doesn't impact waiting all that much (the guy in the wheelchair even gets to sit! ....ok, I'll take my bad humour elsewhere...). Mentally handicapped (Williams, Down,...) or brain damage victims aren't necessarily capable of the same. Do you want a 3-year-old in a 25-year-old body (or worse) throw a fit or go into hysterics - let alone seizure?

Yeah I guess in that case you just have to let them, though I bet that most people with those diseases can be calmed properly anyways.

stienman said:

So it's important to understand the reason in order to pass judgement? The act in and of itself is not wrong, but the state of mind of the person committing the act determines whether it's ok or wrong? In which case, the handicapped person who is renting out their services is as much at fault (and therefore "disgusting") as the family paying for their services, if not more disgusting.

Click to expand...

Yes, motive matters. This was something that was explained to me when I was serving jury duty. If you walk out of a store with something because you forgot to set it down, and can demonstrate you really were just absentminded, or the velcro stuck to your sweater without your noticing, then that's not theft. Theft requries intent to steal.

Not that I'm arguing that this is legally fraud, but it doesn't have to be a legal offense for Disney to change their policies because of abuse of their goodwill.

Yeah thats a dick move. Not the biggest dick move out there, but a dick move none the less.

Disney Fastpass is free with price of admission, where did this thing with handicapped people are cheaper come in?

Dei said:

Disney Fastpass is free with price of admission, where did this thing with handicapped people are cheaper come in?

Click to expand...

It's a completely different company that essentially rents disabled people to bypass lines.

Dei said:

Disney Fastpass is free with price of admission, where did this thing with handicapped people are cheaper come in?

Click to expand...

You can only get a Fastpass for one ride at a time. You have to get the pass for a certain time and then return later to use it. Some rides don't have Fastpass. There are a limited number of Fastpass tickets for any given ride. What's free with admission is not comparable.

It's the VIP guided tours that Disney offers that are what's more expensive. At $315 - $380 per hour, and a minimum of six hours, that's at least $1,890. Versus, what the article quotes, $1,040 for 8 hours with the handicapped tour guide.

Oh hey, it seems this is starting to get some mainstream attention.

Today Show busts Disneyland Disabled cheaters.

--Patrick

Disney amended their disabled access policy. Now those who have a disability that prevents them from waiting in line can now wait somewhere else and return at a specific time that is equal to the current line wait.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/23/travel/disney-disability-policy-changes/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Seems fair.

Nice, I'm sure all the real disabled folk appreciate the favour those leeches did them.

So could a disabled person go to a bunch of rides all at once and get "in line" for them, then ride them in sequence?

Say a guy goes to four rides, and receives wait times of 15, 30, 45, and 60 minutes. He waits 15 minutes, goes to the first one, then goes to the second one at 30 minutes, etc. In that time, he could ride 4 rides, while some other guy waiting in line at the last ride will have stood there for an hour before he got to ride something.

bhamv3 said:

So could a disabled person go to a bunch of rides all at once and get "in line" for them, then ride them in sequence?

Say a guy goes to four rides, and receives wait times of 15, 30, 45, and 60 minutes. He waits 15 minutes, goes to the first one, then goes to the second one at 30 minutes, etc. In that time, he could ride 4 rides, while some other guy waiting in line at the last ride will have stood there for an hour before he got to ride something.

Click to expand...

Disney World already has this option, for everyone. It's called the qwik pass.

Ravenpoe said:

Disney World already has this option, for everyone. It's called the qwik pass.

Click to expand...

Dammit, and here I thought I'd found a way to game the system.

And you can only get one ticket for one ride at a time. If you want to ride something else any previous scheduled ride times are cancelled.

Don't know if they'll also do this for disabled access though.

blotsfan said:

Seems fair.

Click to expand...

In some ways, yes, but considering that some of the disabilities that make it difficult to stand in line would also make it taxing to be out and about for long periods of time, it will end up cutting down on the amount of rides they get to enjoy. While that may seem fair to someone able-bodied who doesn't want to stand around waiting all day, the difference is that for some disabled people they'll leave the park early and be forced to rest, possibly doing nothing else while recovering, while a healthy person leaves and enjoys a movie, goes golfing, dances at a club, whatever.

I can't say I fault Disney for cracking down and trying to make this as fair as possible, but I'm still sad for people who end up seeing significantly less of the Disney parks because of this.

Dave said:

I personally don't think handicapped people should get special treatment. They are people like us and should have to wait in line like everyone else.

Click to expand...

Seriously? I used to work with a disabled MR girl with palsy, she literally could not stand in line that long without collapsing, hell she could barely make it up stairs. This is true for a lot of people.

They are people like us, people with different abilities and needs. A decent society should respect those differences and accomodate them.

Yeah, but I don't think being able to skip was fair. I think letting them sit during their wait is a fair compromise.

figmentPez said:

In some ways, yes, but considering that some of the disabilities that make it difficult to stand in line would also make it taxing to be out and about for long periods of time, it will end up cutting down on the amount of rides they get to enjoy.

Click to expand...

I thought about that as well, but came to the conclusion that those with such a physical condition probably wouldn't be able to manage many rides in a day even if they could get on them immediately anyway.

The collection of disabled people who really can handle several physically demanding rides but can't handle going out for more than a few hours at a time is probably very, very small.

Further, I suspect that Disney can be petitioned for those very rare cases to give greater accommodation.

blotsfan said:

Yeah, but I don't think being able to skip was fair. I think letting them sit during their wait is a fair compromise.

Click to expand...

I dunno. It really depends. For some disabled people it is a real challenge to simply walk from ride A to ride B, so unless you want to hobble the other visitors they are already waitin longer. I think it's really no issue to allow them to skip ahead.

This issue is really tricky though because of the need to have people come with them. Maybe if you limit the guests that can skip with them to one or two you would eliminate most of this cheating.

Sure some people will cheat, but it's not really any different than handicap parking cheaters. If anythig it's far less severe since this is purely entertainment.[DOUBLEPOST=1380044808,1380044717][/DOUBLEPOST]

stienman said:

I thought about that as well, but came to the conclusion that those with such a physical condition probably wouldn't be able to manage many rides in a day even if they could get on them immediately anyway.

The collection of disabled people who really can handle several physically demanding rides but can't handle going out for more than a few hours at a time is probably very, very small.

Further, I suspect that Disney can be petitioned for those very rare cases to give greater accommodation.

Click to expand...

Polio and CP is not that rare.

There are also people with autism and sensory disorders who can maybe handle a ride, but can't handle the way lines crowd people in tiny rooms/hallways like some of them do.

Sure, but they would have problems just walking from the entrance of the park to the ride, even if they could get on right away. Besides, they don't have to wait in line, they can go elsewhere to wait.

The people this new policy hurts are those who can't spend 8 hours at the park for whatever reason. The old policy would have allowed them to ride several rides in an hour or two. The new policy will only let them ride once or twice in that same two hour block.

Knowing that, some disabled are unlikely to try to go, where under the old policy they might have been willing to spent $$$ for those two hours because they could get a lot out of it. Now $$$ for a ride or two is probably not worth it for them.

stienman said:

The collection of disabled people who really can handle several physically demanding rides but can't handle going out for more than a few hours at a time is probably very, very small.

Click to expand...

Most rides at Disney aren't physically demanding. Space Mountain and the Mad Teacups are, but stuff like Peter Pan's Flight, Small World, the Haunted Mansion just involve sitting down and watching scenery, they're even air conditioned.

Sure, but they would have problems just walking from the entrance of the park to the ride, even if they could get on right away. Besides, they don't have to wait in line, they can go elsewhere to wait.

Click to expand...

I think my older sister, who went the WDW in between cancer treatements, is a good example of what I'm talking about. From the time she got out of bed and into her motorized wheelchair, the clock was ticking. Every minute she spent in a chair or car was more taxing on her than lying in bed. She could walk short distances, and sit on rides fine, but it was exhausting for her to do so. She was fully capable of enjoying rides, and her motorized wheelchair meant that distance wasn't an issue, but she could barely manage even half-days at the parks because sitting up wore her out. The fact that she could skip lines meant that she got to see far more than she would have otherwise, even though she had to go back to her hotel to rest, and sleep most of the afternoon and night, in order to recover.

Dei said:

There are also people with autism and sensory disorders who can maybe handle a ride, but can't handle the way lines crowd people in tiny rooms/hallways like some of them do.

Click to expand...

This is very true. My best friend and his wife took their autistic son to Disney World, and they would not have been able to do so without special accomodation. Their son simply cannot handle a situation like waiting in a line.

I'd be interested to see if the amount of disabled passes requested after this came out increased, and by how much. From the article it almost sounds like it finally got to be too much, otherwise they would have left it as is. And I wonder if it was really ever that big of a deal that it needed to be plastered all over the news so everyone knew how to abuse it.