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Kurt shits on the comics industry after iPad release?
#1
Rubicon
Rubicon
So I happened to check the pvp site, cause its funny to see how far he's fallen sometimes. And I see a large "review" of the iPad typed up on his site, I was with him until the great tastemaker himself decided to lump all comic companies (not newspapers or webcomics but comic books) into one large collective luddite asshole gallery as he calls it and proceeds to flame away..
Honestly is there anything left for the tastemaker to rag on? He already hates newspapers, he hates honest feedback (see forum exodus), now he's going after the very medium that inspired him to become a cartoonist and comic maker? Wow.. how the mighty have truly fallen.
Poor Kurty-wurty wants comics and he wants them now now now on his iPad instead of buying floppies or trades like any regular comic fan. If you read his entire rant, you see he lumps "fans" as collectors who don't read comics..Kurt said:That Marvel app should allow me to subscribe to my favorite CURRENT title and deliver it to me the day it hits shelves. How about charging me a premium to get it before it hits physical shelves? How about TRYING ANYTHING you luddite assholes! Hey guess what comic book industry? The iPad is not going to be a game changer. No technology is. YOU are the game changer. You have to DO something with the techology that is presented to you. Think. Be innovative. Try something bold. Don’t give me Captain Amaerica from 2004. Even a noble failure would be better than playing it safe at this point. Don’t you think?
So as a "fan" I'm automatically the collector who never reads comic books.. My extensive knowledge of the DCU just happens to be from second hand discussion? lol Kurt, you clever minx!Kurt said:Retailers want it to fail because they want to keep selling physical floppy comics. Diamond wants it to fail because they want to keep being a monopoly for physical floppy comics. Fans want it to fail because for them, comics is about collecting, bagging and boarding, not reading.
Honestly is there anything left for the tastemaker to rag on? He already hates newspapers, he hates honest feedback (see forum exodus), now he's going after the very medium that inspired him to become a cartoonist and comic maker? Wow.. how the mighty have truly fallen.
#2
Andromache
Andromache
Kurt? who the fuck is that?
#3
Chazwozel
Also, I bolded the part I thought to be hilarious. Mav. Ph.D. (in Batman).
Chazwozel
Uh, he's 100% correct.So I happened to check the pvp site, cause its funny to see how far he's fallen sometimes. And I see a large "review" of the iPad typed up on his site, I was with him until the great tastemaker himself decided to lump all comic companies (not newspapers or webcomics but comic books) into one large collective luddite asshole gallery as he calls it and proceeds to flame away..
Poor Kurty-wurty wants comics and he wants them now now now on his iPad instead of buying floppies or trades like any regular comic fan. If you read his entire rant, you see he lumps "fans" as collectors who don't read comics..Kurt said:That Marvel app should allow me to subscribe to my favorite CURRENT title and deliver it to me the day it hits shelves. How about charging me a premium to get it before it hits physical shelves? How about TRYING ANYTHING you luddite assholes! Hey guess what comic book industry? The iPad is not going to be a game changer. No technology is. YOU are the game changer. You have to DO something with the techology that is presented to you. Think. Be innovative. Try something bold. Don’t give me Captain Amaerica from 2004. Even a noble failure would be better than playing it safe at this point. Don’t you think?
So as a "fan" I'm automatically the collector who never reads comic books.. My extensive knowledge of the DCU just happens to be from second hand discussion? lol Kurt, you clever minx!Kurt said:Retailers want it to fail because they want to keep selling physical floppy comics. Diamond wants it to fail because they want to keep being a monopoly for physical floppy comics. Fans want it to fail because for them, comics is about collecting, bagging and boarding, not reading.
Honestly is there anything left for the tastemaker to rag on? He already hates newspapers, he hates honest feedback (see forum exodus), now he's going after the very medium that inspired him to become a cartoonist and comic maker? Wow.. how the mighty have truly fallen.
Also, I bolded the part I thought to be hilarious. Mav. Ph.D. (in Batman).
#4
Null
Null
Does he mean Steve Kuntz? I don't even read that comic anymore, so it's a non-issue to me.
However, tomorrow or day after we'll get a big post about how that wasn't what he was really saying, and this outburst will be erased...
However, tomorrow or day after we'll get a big post about how that wasn't what he was really saying, and this outburst will be erased...
#5
Chazwozel
haha, you weren't around for that meme. A bit ago Kurtz had some issues with the promoters of a Con. They sent him an invitation and called him Kurt.
Chazwozel
Kurt? who the fuck is that?
haha, you weren't around for that meme. A bit ago Kurtz had some issues with the promoters of a Con. They sent him an invitation and called him Kurt.
#6
Andromache
Andromache
ooohh, ok. thanks.
#7
Chazwozel
Chazwozel
Here's Kurts full segment on iPad comics:
Here's were we actually get into stupid land. Netbooks are still better than the iPad, just because your meaty ham-hocks can't navigate around a smaller netbook keyboard doesn't render them obsolete.
He's right. The comic industry is retarded if they don't get on the wagon with this.And that’s why it’ll be so dissapointing when the comic book industry does absolutely NOTHING revolutionary with this device. God damn it. I don’t know why I’m so cynical about this, but everything I read from my industry about devices like the iPad make me want to start punching people in the crotch. Everything I read online points to an entire industry either adamatly denying that the iPad will change things for comics or actively praying it doesn’t. Then there’s the truly astounding group of idiots just sitting there waiting to see if it does anything.
Retailers want it to fail because they want to keep selling physical floppy comics. Diamond wants it to fail because they want to keep being a monopoly for physical floppy comics. Fans want it to fail because for them, comics is about collecting, bagging and boarding, not reading. Creators want it to fail because they’re artists, and they don’t understand new business models or how to make money, nor do they want to worry about it.
What about the big four publishers? I don’t know. I suspect they fear selling digital copies of comics will cut into their existing business. That’s why the Marvel app is pushing Avengers comics from 1998 on me. Guess what I don’t give a shit about? The Avengers from 1998. What’s happening to the Avengers now? And how would it be bad for business to offer me those comics for $1.99 a piece?
That Marvel app should allow me to subscribe to my favorite CURRENT title and deliver it to me the day it hits shelves. How about charging me a premium to get it before it hits physical shelves? How about TRYING ANYTHING you luddite assholes! Hey guess what comic book industry? The iPad is not going to be a game changer. No technology is. YOU are the game changer. You have to DO something with the techology that is presented to you. Think. Be innovative. Try something bold. Don’t give me Captain Amaerica from 2004. Even a noble failure would be better than playing it safe at this point. Don’t you think?
A Netbook Replacement:
I don’t think the iPad could ever replace a laptop, but it sure as hell is better than any netbook I’ve ever sat down with. I’m not really that impressed by netbooks. The keyboards are impossibly small to deal with, I’m not excited about Windows or Linux and the resolution on them usually sucks. So I might as well surf and email on my phone.
The iPad, however is great at surfing the net and reading email and tweeting and chatting on Instant Messenger. I didn’t think an oversized iPod Touch would be but honestly, it’s a really elegant device for that kind of casual computing.
Safari doesn’t feel like a mobile browser at all. Surfing by touch is very intuative and immersive. I actually like it quite a bit. I woke up this morning, sat up in bed and checked my email, twitter and surfed the net for about 20 minutes. I even posted comments on a couple sites and I never felt limited in my experience.
Is the iPad a laptop replacement? No. But a netbook replacement sure. Absolutely. In fact, I think that unless I know I have to make comics on the road, I would leave my laptop at home and just carry the iPad with me on trips. If I’m just surfing and emailing, I don’t need anything else.
Here's were we actually get into stupid land. Netbooks are still better than the iPad, just because your meaty ham-hocks can't navigate around a smaller netbook keyboard doesn't render them obsolete.
#8
ElJuski
ElJuski
ITT: Butthurt nerd whines about other butthurt nerd
#9
Rubicon
Honestly, I'm a fan and a collector. I read and collect. And even if I could get a current issue for like, iTunes pricing of 99 cents an issue, I'd still want the regular floppy. I want to be able to hold the art in my hands, I want to be able to go to a comic book store and talk with other fans, hang out and talk to the staff about new releases, maybe spectate some guys playing Warhammer 40k or Magic the Gathering, etc The industry is so small now, going digital will destroy what is left..
And his rant on netbook is so biased...
A netbook is equally as powerful or more powerful than an iPad in terms of specs. It has a keyboard, which aren't small, even my sausage fingers can type on one. You don't have to worry about twisting and pinching and doing all kinds of charades type gestures to navigate a webpage. It can play games, regular PC games. you can run a variety of OSes, etc etc etc
oh yea, and a Netbook can handle Flash, so you can view youtube, newsgrounds, popcap or any website that uses flash, has flash content, flash games, etc
Rubicon
Yes and no. I agree the comics industry needs to move forward in ways to promote itself and get readers, putting 100% digital copies of current comics is a BAD idea.. Regular comics are already pirated enough online with scans and torrents of full issues / runs. If they make official online versions for sale, A) it'll drive fans away from the actual reading of regular comics and B) it opens pirating of them even more, which helps A a lot more.Uh, he's 100% correct.
Honestly, I'm a fan and a collector. I read and collect. And even if I could get a current issue for like, iTunes pricing of 99 cents an issue, I'd still want the regular floppy. I want to be able to hold the art in my hands, I want to be able to go to a comic book store and talk with other fans, hang out and talk to the staff about new releases, maybe spectate some guys playing Warhammer 40k or Magic the Gathering, etc The industry is so small now, going digital will destroy what is left..
And his rant on netbook is so biased...
A netbook is equally as powerful or more powerful than an iPad in terms of specs. It has a keyboard, which aren't small, even my sausage fingers can type on one. You don't have to worry about twisting and pinching and doing all kinds of charades type gestures to navigate a webpage. It can play games, regular PC games. you can run a variety of OSes, etc etc etc
oh yea, and a Netbook can handle Flash, so you can view youtube, newsgrounds, popcap or any website that uses flash, has flash content, flash games, etc
#10
MindDetective
Honestly, I'm a fan and a collector. I read and collect. And even if I could get a current issue for like, iTunes pricing of 99 cents an issue, I'd still want the regular floppy. I want to be able to hold the art in my hands, I want to be able to go to a comic book store and talk with other fans, hang out and talk to the staff about new releases, maybe spectate some guys playing Warhammer 40k or Magic the Gathering, etc The industry is so small now, going digital will destroy what is left..[/QUOTE]
So you'd rather sit by the bedside, holding the hand of paper comics as it dies a slow death do anything to keep it alive longer? Kurtz is right in saying that doing nothing is a poor solution to the threats to the industry. That seems to be what you are in favor of, which is pretty short-sighted.
MindDetective
Yes and no. I agree the comics industry needs to move forward in ways to promote itself and get readers, putting 100% digital copies of current comics is a BAD idea.. Regular comics are already pirated enough online with scans and torrents of full issues / runs. If they make official online versions for sale, A) it'll drive fans away from the actual reading of regular comics and B) it opens pirating of them even more, which helps A a lot more.Uh, he's 100% correct.
Honestly, I'm a fan and a collector. I read and collect. And even if I could get a current issue for like, iTunes pricing of 99 cents an issue, I'd still want the regular floppy. I want to be able to hold the art in my hands, I want to be able to go to a comic book store and talk with other fans, hang out and talk to the staff about new releases, maybe spectate some guys playing Warhammer 40k or Magic the Gathering, etc The industry is so small now, going digital will destroy what is left..[/QUOTE]
So you'd rather sit by the bedside, holding the hand of paper comics as it dies a slow death do anything to keep it alive longer? Kurtz is right in saying that doing nothing is a poor solution to the threats to the industry. That seems to be what you are in favor of, which is pretty short-sighted.
#11
Chazwozel
Honestly, I'm a fan and a collector. I read and collect. And even if I could get a current issue for like, iTunes pricing of 99 cents an issue, I'd still want the regular floppy. I want to be able to hold the art in my hands, I want to be able to go to a comic book store and talk with other fans, hang out and talk to the staff about new releases, maybe spectate some guys playing Warhammer 40k or Magic the Gathering, etc The industry is so small now, going digital will destroy what is left..[/QUOTE]
What? Read what you wrote and ask yourself, havve novels and books vanished since the advent of digital readers like Kindle? The answer is no. As for talking to the staff... my cousin is part-owner of a comic book shop and assholes like you drive him and his partners nuts!
Chazwozel
Yes and no. I agree the comics industry needs to move forward in ways to promote itself and get readers, putting 100% digital copies of current comics is a BAD idea.. Regular comics are already pirated enough online with scans and torrents of full issues / runs. If they make official online versions for sale, A) it'll drive fans away from the actual reading of regular comics and B) it opens pirating of them even more, which helps A a lot more.Uh, he's 100% correct.
Honestly, I'm a fan and a collector. I read and collect. And even if I could get a current issue for like, iTunes pricing of 99 cents an issue, I'd still want the regular floppy. I want to be able to hold the art in my hands, I want to be able to go to a comic book store and talk with other fans, hang out and talk to the staff about new releases, maybe spectate some guys playing Warhammer 40k or Magic the Gathering, etc The industry is so small now, going digital will destroy what is left..[/QUOTE]
What? Read what you wrote and ask yourself, havve novels and books vanished since the advent of digital readers like Kindle? The answer is no. As for talking to the staff... my cousin is part-owner of a comic book shop and assholes like you drive him and his partners nuts!
#12
Rubicon
And you can tell your cousin if thats the way he wants to think of his customers, he's lucky to have any at all. If my local comic shop owner had that opinion, I'd find another place to purchase my books.
Rubicon
Yes, obviously e-readers haven't destroyed the book format. But that doesn't mean given time they can't replace books, as more and more devices are made to render information in an easy way. I just don't think it's a good idea.What? Read what you wrote and ask yourself, havve novels and books vanished since the advent of digital readers like Kindle? The answer is no. As for talking to the staff... my cousin is part-owner of a comic book shop and assholes like you drive him and his partners nuts!
And you can tell your cousin if thats the way he wants to think of his customers, he's lucky to have any at all. If my local comic shop owner had that opinion, I'd find another place to purchase my books.
#13
Null
Null
It seems like being able to read comics on the iPad would be a good thing, and paying for current ones to be delivered on release day seems like a viable option. I can't help but thinking that taking advantage of new technology would be a bonus, giving eager readers another option and possibly even attracting new customers. Cause some comic stores are like the stereotypical Comic Store Guy / Snide Music Clerk experience - slack assholes who judge everything you buy, combined with an unappealing physical space. Bypassing that? Awesome.
#14
Chazwozel
And you can tell your cousin if thats the way he wants to think of his customers, he's lucky to have any at all. If my local comic shop owner had that opinion, I'd find another place to purchase my books.[/QUOTE]
Who cares if books and comics get all digitized?
He loves comics and pop culture. He hates drooling, mouthbreathing basement dwellers that come in everyday, stink up the place, never buy anything, and bug him while he's trying to help customers. These people consider themselves 'customers' as well. There's a limit to how much a clerk will tolerate 'hanging out' with the customers before they get in the way and annoying ( but you wouldn't know anything about work, now would ya?) ;-)
Chazwozel
Yes, obviously e-readers haven't destroyed the book format. But that doesn't mean given time they can't replace books, as more and more devices are made to render information in an easy way. I just don't think it's a good idea.What? Read what you wrote and ask yourself, havve novels and books vanished since the advent of digital readers like Kindle? The answer is no. As for talking to the staff... my cousin is part-owner of a comic book shop and assholes like you drive him and his partners nuts!
And you can tell your cousin if thats the way he wants to think of his customers, he's lucky to have any at all. If my local comic shop owner had that opinion, I'd find another place to purchase my books.[/QUOTE]
Who cares if books and comics get all digitized?
He loves comics and pop culture. He hates drooling, mouthbreathing basement dwellers that come in everyday, stink up the place, never buy anything, and bug him while he's trying to help customers. These people consider themselves 'customers' as well. There's a limit to how much a clerk will tolerate 'hanging out' with the customers before they get in the way and annoying ( but you wouldn't know anything about work, now would ya?) ;-)
#15
Null
Null
Actually, it occurs to me that the problem the big players have with this sort of application is that, if it works, it opens the door for the small comic artists, the way the internet did for online comics - you no longer needed the big syndicates to make your product available, you retain creater ownership and control your intellectual property.
#16
figmentPez
I love sequential art. I like especially like superheroes. I read a lot of webcomics (and buy physical editions of Megatokyo and Applegeeks), and occasionally buy a trade of print comics. However, I don't read print comic regularly, and I never have. Here's why:
1. Way too expensive. I've never had the money to spend regularly on comics. I generally get a lot entertainment for my dollar out of video games.
2. I have no idea where the nearest comic shop is, and it wouldn't be easy for me to get there, even if I did. I have chronic health problems (see money issues above) so I can't drive myself, and going out at all is taxing. I love digital downloads for games. Yes, I know I can order comics online, but I think it's a pain to find comics on Amazon if you don't already know what you're looking for.
3. I have no idea how to subscribe to a comic, or if that's even possible. Plus, I have no idea how something like that would work with cross-overs. If I want to watch a TV show, I just tune in every week. If I buy a season of games from Telltale, I get the whole story. They make it easy. Anyone, even someone whose never played games before, can figure out how to get an entire season of Sam & Max.
4. Trades mystify me, as an outsider. Maybe this is my fault, but it seems hard to find out what's available, where it fits in continuity, and many times I end up buying a story that feels incomplete because there are so many side stories not included in the trade (DC One Million springs to mind as an awful example. Loved what I read, felt cheated because huge chunks were obviously left out). Of course, I almost entirely gave up on reading trades a couple years ago because of these issues, so maybe it's better now. I don't know.
I'd love to get into comics. Well, back into them, and more than I have in the past, but I don't want to have to work at it. Maybe that's lazy, but I've got far more important things to spend my efforts on, and a lot still goes undone.
figmentPez
I tend to agree. I think he's using a fair bit of hyperbole, but he's making some very good points. It is unfair to paint all fans as caring only about collecting, but I really can't sympathize with "fans" who don't want digital versions of current comics.Uh, he's 100% correct.
I love sequential art. I like especially like superheroes. I read a lot of webcomics (and buy physical editions of Megatokyo and Applegeeks), and occasionally buy a trade of print comics. However, I don't read print comic regularly, and I never have. Here's why:
1. Way too expensive. I've never had the money to spend regularly on comics. I generally get a lot entertainment for my dollar out of video games.
2. I have no idea where the nearest comic shop is, and it wouldn't be easy for me to get there, even if I did. I have chronic health problems (see money issues above) so I can't drive myself, and going out at all is taxing. I love digital downloads for games. Yes, I know I can order comics online, but I think it's a pain to find comics on Amazon if you don't already know what you're looking for.
3. I have no idea how to subscribe to a comic, or if that's even possible. Plus, I have no idea how something like that would work with cross-overs. If I want to watch a TV show, I just tune in every week. If I buy a season of games from Telltale, I get the whole story. They make it easy. Anyone, even someone whose never played games before, can figure out how to get an entire season of Sam & Max.
4. Trades mystify me, as an outsider. Maybe this is my fault, but it seems hard to find out what's available, where it fits in continuity, and many times I end up buying a story that feels incomplete because there are so many side stories not included in the trade (DC One Million springs to mind as an awful example. Loved what I read, felt cheated because huge chunks were obviously left out). Of course, I almost entirely gave up on reading trades a couple years ago because of these issues, so maybe it's better now. I don't know.
I'd love to get into comics. Well, back into them, and more than I have in the past, but I don't want to have to work at it. Maybe that's lazy, but I've got far more important things to spend my efforts on, and a lot still goes undone.
#17
Rubicon
Rubicon
We will just agree to disagree, I'm not going to be drawn into a bickering contest after you destroyed my last thread. Back to games and media subforums for me.He loves comics and pop culture. He hates drooling, mouthbreathing basement dwellers that come in everyday, stink up the place, never buy anything, and bug him while he's trying to help customers. These people consider themselves 'customers' as well. There's a limit to how much a clerk will tolerate 'hanging out' with the customers before they get in the way and annoying ( but you wouldn't know anything about work, now would ya?) ;-)
#18
Chazwozel
Haha, you destroyed your own thread, unionboy.
Chazwozel
We will just agree to disagree, I'm not going to be drawn into a bickering contest after you destroyed my last thread. Back to games and media subforums for me.[/QUOTE]He loves comics and pop culture. He hates drooling, mouthbreathing basement dwellers that come in everyday, stink up the place, never buy anything, and bug him while he's trying to help customers. These people consider themselves 'customers' as well. There's a limit to how much a clerk will tolerate 'hanging out' with the customers before they get in the way and annoying ( but you wouldn't know anything about work, now would ya?) ;-)
Haha, you destroyed your own thread, unionboy.
#19
Necronic
Necronic
He probably does have that opinion, he just doesn't share it because he wants your business.
And I agree with kurtz, its simply stupid for any serious comics seller to not get into this. Especially when you consider how many people already pirate comics on the interenet. Clearly computers are a perfectly acceptable place to read comics.
Moreover the whole netbook to iPad comparison is made of fail. The iPad is a thing in and of itself. Its not a netbook, its not a tablet PC, and its mostly not an iPhone. I guess the reason people can't figure this out is that its impossible for them to see a new product and not see it as another iteration of an old idea. The iPad isn't like this.
If you do want to make a comparison compare it to tablet PCs. Tablet PCs have never been even remotely succesful. Possibly this is because people would slap a normal OS on it, which doesn't make sense. Maybe the iPad is the appropriate replacement to the failed tablet PC. Honestly what I would like to see is something like the iPad but its designed to wire into your home network and treat your PC as a server. Basically a portable IO device.
k, guess I'm completely off topic now.
And I agree with kurtz, its simply stupid for any serious comics seller to not get into this. Especially when you consider how many people already pirate comics on the interenet. Clearly computers are a perfectly acceptable place to read comics.
Moreover the whole netbook to iPad comparison is made of fail. The iPad is a thing in and of itself. Its not a netbook, its not a tablet PC, and its mostly not an iPhone. I guess the reason people can't figure this out is that its impossible for them to see a new product and not see it as another iteration of an old idea. The iPad isn't like this.
If you do want to make a comparison compare it to tablet PCs. Tablet PCs have never been even remotely succesful. Possibly this is because people would slap a normal OS on it, which doesn't make sense. Maybe the iPad is the appropriate replacement to the failed tablet PC. Honestly what I would like to see is something like the iPad but its designed to wire into your home network and treat your PC as a server. Basically a portable IO device.
k, guess I'm completely off topic now.
#20
Dave
And you can tell your cousin if thats the way he wants to think of his customers, he's lucky to have any at all. If my local comic shop owner had that opinion, I'd find another place to purchase my books.[/QUOTE]
Who cares if books and comics get all digitized?
He loves comics and pop culture. He hates drooling, mouthbreathing basement dwellers that come in everyday, stink up the place, never buy anything, and bug him while he's trying to help customers. These people consider themselves 'customers' as well. There's a limit to how much a clerk will tolerate 'hanging out' with the customers before they get in the way and annoying ( but you wouldn't know anything about work, now would ya?) ;-)[/QUOTE]
A good friend of mine works at a comic shop and there's a group of guys who play D&D there every Thursday night. They won't buy anything and have even brought in their own soda/candy/etc even though it's sold there. To top it off, a couple weeks ago they needed a reference book so they just went to the shelf and got it, used it and then put it back! He told them that they could no longer play there if they weren't paying customers so one of them got pissy and bought a soda for $1 and sat back down.
I know how much they have to make per day average to break even and they are not doing it.
Dave
Yes, obviously e-readers haven't destroyed the book format. But that doesn't mean given time they can't replace books, as more and more devices are made to render information in an easy way. I just don't think it's a good idea.What? Read what you wrote and ask yourself, havve novels and books vanished since the advent of digital readers like Kindle? The answer is no. As for talking to the staff... my cousin is part-owner of a comic book shop and assholes like you drive him and his partners nuts!
And you can tell your cousin if thats the way he wants to think of his customers, he's lucky to have any at all. If my local comic shop owner had that opinion, I'd find another place to purchase my books.[/QUOTE]
Who cares if books and comics get all digitized?
He loves comics and pop culture. He hates drooling, mouthbreathing basement dwellers that come in everyday, stink up the place, never buy anything, and bug him while he's trying to help customers. These people consider themselves 'customers' as well. There's a limit to how much a clerk will tolerate 'hanging out' with the customers before they get in the way and annoying ( but you wouldn't know anything about work, now would ya?) ;-)[/QUOTE]
A good friend of mine works at a comic shop and there's a group of guys who play D&D there every Thursday night. They won't buy anything and have even brought in their own soda/candy/etc even though it's sold there. To top it off, a couple weeks ago they needed a reference book so they just went to the shelf and got it, used it and then put it back! He told them that they could no longer play there if they weren't paying customers so one of them got pissy and bought a soda for $1 and sat back down.
I know how much they have to make per day average to break even and they are not doing it.
#21
Gusto
Gusto
The problem is there are two kinds of comic fans here:
The type that wants his comic culture to remain as it ever was - shops with knowledgeable clerks, dark basements, shelves and shelves of back issues, and a high gain-of entry.
And the type that keeps a wider variety of current issues, clean and approachable, family-friendly places that are maybe less nerdy but attract a wider scope of readers.
I suspect that Mav prefers the former whereas Kurtz prefers the latter and feels that it's the only way comic shops will be able to stay in business. Kurtz has made no secret of his opinions about the print market vs. digital distribution, as well as his thoughts on comic shops in general.
The type that wants his comic culture to remain as it ever was - shops with knowledgeable clerks, dark basements, shelves and shelves of back issues, and a high gain-of entry.
And the type that keeps a wider variety of current issues, clean and approachable, family-friendly places that are maybe less nerdy but attract a wider scope of readers.
I suspect that Mav prefers the former whereas Kurtz prefers the latter and feels that it's the only way comic shops will be able to stay in business. Kurtz has made no secret of his opinions about the print market vs. digital distribution, as well as his thoughts on comic shops in general.
#22
Null
Null
The facts destroyed your thread, Mav. You were postulating an insanely bad course of action and everyone was telling you so.
#23
Chazwozel
Chazwozel
I think the iPad has potential. With advances in the technology, I can see it a pioneer in things like restaurant menus, hospital and hotel room media centers etc...He probably does have that opinion, he just doesn't share it because he wants your business.
And I agree with kurtz, its simply stupid for any serious comics seller to not get into this. Especially when you consider how many people already pirate comics on the interenet. Clearly computers are a perfectly acceptable place to read comics.
Moreover the whole netbook to iPad comparison is made of fail. The iPad is a thing in and of itself. Its not a netbook, its not a tablet PC, and its mostly not an iPhone. I guess the reason people can't figure this out is that its impossible for them to see a new product and not see it as another iteration of an old idea. The iPad isn't like this.
If you do want to make a comparison compare it to tablet PCs. Tablet PCs have never been even remotely succesful. Possibly this is because people would slap a normal OS on it, which doesn't make sense. Maybe the iPad is the appropriate replacement to the failed tablet PC. Honestly what I would like to see is something like the iPad but its designed to wire into your home network and treat your PC as a server. Basically a portable IO device.
k, guess I'm completely off topic now.
#24
Null
And you can tell your cousin if thats the way he wants to think of his customers, he's lucky to have any at all. If my local comic shop owner had that opinion, I'd find another place to purchase my books.[/QUOTE]
Who cares if books and comics get all digitized?
He loves comics and pop culture. He hates drooling, mouthbreathing basement dwellers that come in everyday, stink up the place, never buy anything, and bug him while he's trying to help customers. These people consider themselves 'customers' as well. There's a limit to how much a clerk will tolerate 'hanging out' with the customers before they get in the way and annoying ( but you wouldn't know anything about work, now would ya?) ;-)[/QUOTE]
A good friend of mine works at a comic shop and there's a group of guys who play D&D there every Thursday night. They won't buy anything and have even brought in their own soda/candy/etc even though it's sold there. To top it off, a couple weeks ago they needed a reference book so they just went to the shelf and got it, used it and then put it back! He told them that they could no longer play there if they weren't paying customers so one of them got pissy and bought a soda for $1 and sat back down.
I know how much they have to make per day average to break even and they are not doing it.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, running a FLGCS (Friendly Local Gaming or Comics Store) is a rough business. I think the Sandbagger's Game Club that the owners of 4WFG game with pays to have their club hosted at the store - storage fee for their accumulated library, and a reasonable per-hour rate for use of the back gaming room. And of course it's not at all unreasonable for the owners of a FLGCS to disallow outside food and drink. That could even be offered as a membership sort of thing - "Hey, subscribe to be a member of our gaming club and get a 5% discount on x products, and 1 free hour of gametime for your group per month. Or upgrade to our silver membership, get a 10% discount, etc..."
Null
Yes, obviously e-readers haven't destroyed the book format. But that doesn't mean given time they can't replace books, as more and more devices are made to render information in an easy way. I just don't think it's a good idea.What? Read what you wrote and ask yourself, havve novels and books vanished since the advent of digital readers like Kindle? The answer is no. As for talking to the staff... my cousin is part-owner of a comic book shop and assholes like you drive him and his partners nuts!
And you can tell your cousin if thats the way he wants to think of his customers, he's lucky to have any at all. If my local comic shop owner had that opinion, I'd find another place to purchase my books.[/QUOTE]
Who cares if books and comics get all digitized?
He loves comics and pop culture. He hates drooling, mouthbreathing basement dwellers that come in everyday, stink up the place, never buy anything, and bug him while he's trying to help customers. These people consider themselves 'customers' as well. There's a limit to how much a clerk will tolerate 'hanging out' with the customers before they get in the way and annoying ( but you wouldn't know anything about work, now would ya?) ;-)[/QUOTE]
A good friend of mine works at a comic shop and there's a group of guys who play D&D there every Thursday night. They won't buy anything and have even brought in their own soda/candy/etc even though it's sold there. To top it off, a couple weeks ago they needed a reference book so they just went to the shelf and got it, used it and then put it back! He told them that they could no longer play there if they weren't paying customers so one of them got pissy and bought a soda for $1 and sat back down.
I know how much they have to make per day average to break even and they are not doing it.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, running a FLGCS (Friendly Local Gaming or Comics Store) is a rough business. I think the Sandbagger's Game Club that the owners of 4WFG game with pays to have their club hosted at the store - storage fee for their accumulated library, and a reasonable per-hour rate for use of the back gaming room. And of course it's not at all unreasonable for the owners of a FLGCS to disallow outside food and drink. That could even be offered as a membership sort of thing - "Hey, subscribe to be a member of our gaming club and get a 5% discount on x products, and 1 free hour of gametime for your group per month. Or upgrade to our silver membership, get a 10% discount, etc..."
#25
Chazwozel
And you can tell your cousin if thats the way he wants to think of his customers, he's lucky to have any at all. If my local comic shop owner had that opinion, I'd find another place to purchase my books.[/QUOTE]
Who cares if books and comics get all digitized?
He loves comics and pop culture. He hates drooling, mouthbreathing basement dwellers that come in everyday, stink up the place, never buy anything, and bug him while he's trying to help customers. These people consider themselves 'customers' as well. There's a limit to how much a clerk will tolerate 'hanging out' with the customers before they get in the way and annoying ( but you wouldn't know anything about work, now would ya?) ;-)[/QUOTE]
A good friend of mine works at a comic shop and there's a group of guys who play D&D there every Thursday night. They won't buy anything and have even brought in their own soda/candy/etc even though it's sold there. To top it off, a couple weeks ago they needed a reference book so they just went to the shelf and got it, used it and then put it back! He told them that they could no longer play there if they weren't paying customers so one of them got pissy and bought a soda for $1 and sat back down.
I know how much they have to make per day average to break even and they are not doing it.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, running a FLGCS (Friendly Local Gaming or Comics Store) is a rough business. I think the Sandbagger's Game Club that the owners of 4WFG game with pays to have their club hosted at the store - storage fee for their accumulated library, and a reasonable per-hour rate for use of the back gaming room. And of course it's not at all unreasonable for the owners of a FLGCS to disallow outside food and drink. That could even be offered as a membership sort of thing - "Hey, subscribe to be a member of our gaming club and get a 5% discount on x products, and 1 free hour of gametime for your group per month. Or upgrade to our silver membership, get a 10% discount, etc..."[/QUOTE]
My cousin's place actually stays afloat moreso because it's half a comic store and half hobby shop. The hobby shop side brings in WAAAAAY more revenue but a lot of the same customer base. A lot of folks into miniatures mingle with the guys that do modeling and visa vera. When I worked there as a kid, I was really into RC cars and had all the wacky engineering kids to talk to.
Chazwozel
Yes, obviously e-readers haven't destroyed the book format. But that doesn't mean given time they can't replace books, as more and more devices are made to render information in an easy way. I just don't think it's a good idea.What? Read what you wrote and ask yourself, havve novels and books vanished since the advent of digital readers like Kindle? The answer is no. As for talking to the staff... my cousin is part-owner of a comic book shop and assholes like you drive him and his partners nuts!
And you can tell your cousin if thats the way he wants to think of his customers, he's lucky to have any at all. If my local comic shop owner had that opinion, I'd find another place to purchase my books.[/QUOTE]
Who cares if books and comics get all digitized?
He loves comics and pop culture. He hates drooling, mouthbreathing basement dwellers that come in everyday, stink up the place, never buy anything, and bug him while he's trying to help customers. These people consider themselves 'customers' as well. There's a limit to how much a clerk will tolerate 'hanging out' with the customers before they get in the way and annoying ( but you wouldn't know anything about work, now would ya?) ;-)[/QUOTE]
A good friend of mine works at a comic shop and there's a group of guys who play D&D there every Thursday night. They won't buy anything and have even brought in their own soda/candy/etc even though it's sold there. To top it off, a couple weeks ago they needed a reference book so they just went to the shelf and got it, used it and then put it back! He told them that they could no longer play there if they weren't paying customers so one of them got pissy and bought a soda for $1 and sat back down.
I know how much they have to make per day average to break even and they are not doing it.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, running a FLGCS (Friendly Local Gaming or Comics Store) is a rough business. I think the Sandbagger's Game Club that the owners of 4WFG game with pays to have their club hosted at the store - storage fee for their accumulated library, and a reasonable per-hour rate for use of the back gaming room. And of course it's not at all unreasonable for the owners of a FLGCS to disallow outside food and drink. That could even be offered as a membership sort of thing - "Hey, subscribe to be a member of our gaming club and get a 5% discount on x products, and 1 free hour of gametime for your group per month. Or upgrade to our silver membership, get a 10% discount, etc..."[/QUOTE]
My cousin's place actually stays afloat moreso because it's half a comic store and half hobby shop. The hobby shop side brings in WAAAAAY more revenue but a lot of the same customer base. A lot of folks into miniatures mingle with the guys that do modeling and visa vera. When I worked there as a kid, I was really into RC cars and had all the wacky engineering kids to talk to.
#26
Null
Null
I bet it does. See, Mav, the thing is, Hobbiests SPEND MONEY.
#27
Chazwozel
Heck yeah, and out of the hobby side, most of the income comes from the model train enthusiasts. Those guys will drop 200-500 bucks easy on a locomotive engine.
Chazwozel
I bet it does. See, Mav, the thing is, Hobbiests SPEND MONEY.
Heck yeah, and out of the hobby side, most of the income comes from the model train enthusiasts. Those guys will drop 200-500 bucks easy on a locomotive engine.
#28
SpecialKO
SpecialKO
Yeah, not to jump on the Mav-pounding dogpile here, but I agree with Scott pretty much entirely (at least up until the netbook thing). With digital distribution as the obvious future and clear path for cost-saving, combined with the print industry and comic industry current troubles, Marvel/DC/etc should be jumping into this with both hands and all 4 feet swinging. There is no better time to experiment with better models, re-capture old customers, and grab new customers, and they're really not putting in any effort right now.
I'm not sold on the iPad yet, but purely as a question of overall functionality. I think the 2nd/3rd-gen versions are going to be really sweet, and that's probably when I might be inclined to get one.
I'm not sold on the iPad yet, but purely as a question of overall functionality. I think the 2nd/3rd-gen versions are going to be really sweet, and that's probably when I might be inclined to get one.
#29
Chazwozel
Chazwozel
I don't really try to dump on Mav, he just seems to do it to himself. From his rants about employers requiring MLK day off to unionizing a telemarketing center and now this thread, where discussions about revamping and modernizing the comic industry - to him - are a horrible idea because he doesn't like change. Frankly, I don't know how someone can get so worked up over such a non-issue.Yeah, not to jump on the Mav-pounding dogpile here, but I agree with Scott pretty much entirely (at least up until the netbook thing). With digital distribution as the obvious future and clear path for cost-saving, combined with the print industry and comic industry current troubles, Marvel/DC/etc should be jumping into this with both hands and all 4 feet swinging. There is no better time to experiment with better models, re-capture old customers, and grab new customers, and they're really not putting in any effort right now.
I'm not sold on the iPad yet, but purely as a question of overall functionality. I think the 2nd/3rd-gen versions are going to be really sweet, and that's probably when I might be inclined to get one.
#30
Andromache
Andromache
i think kurtz's point stands regardless of the net book vs ipad issue. creators should look at every business opportunity, and netbooks or ipads just arent getting enough creator attention
regarding the ipad, the only thing i can say is try it before you dismiss it. not feasible for everyone not near any apple retailer, but it is a damn nifty device. its utility is higher than its luxury factor for me, right now. i think as a platform it gives developers many opportunities and maybe kurtz's screed will sway some creators minds about the changing industry regardless of whether the ipad or the netbook is the platform.
regarding the ipad, the only thing i can say is try it before you dismiss it. not feasible for everyone not near any apple retailer, but it is a damn nifty device. its utility is higher than its luxury factor for me, right now. i think as a platform it gives developers many opportunities and maybe kurtz's screed will sway some creators minds about the changing industry regardless of whether the ipad or the netbook is the platform.
#31
wana10
wana10
I don't like the ipad comic model for the same reason I don't like the itunes music model. However, I understand I'm in the minority with this feeling. So long as comics continue to have hard copies printed I don't care what happens in the digital market but when the last floppy or tpb rolls off the line that will be the last dollar I will spend on comics.
Edit* As for the back room gaming issue. I play miniature games at the local hobby shop every week. I realize that without that place finding games would be a lot more difficult and so every week I buy something. Those dnd players in the above post are assholes.
Edit* As for the back room gaming issue. I play miniature games at the local hobby shop every week. I realize that without that place finding games would be a lot more difficult and so every week I buy something. Those dnd players in the above post are assholes.
#32
Andromache
Andromache
without regard to the rising cost of paper and ink? or is the whole dwindling resources thing a nonissue for you?i don't like the ipad comic model for the same reason i don't like the itunes music model. however, i understand i'm in the minority with this feeling. so long as comics continue to have hard copies printed i don't care what happens in the digital market but when the last floppy or tpb rolls off the line that will be the last dollar i will spend on comics.
#33
SpecialKO
Crone, if you don't mind my asking, what kind of direct utility do you draw from the iPad? I already have a laptop, desktop, and iPhone, so for me it seems more like an expensive toy at the moment.
SpecialKO
I would be more than willing to pay 10-15 for a digital version of a tpb that I could carry around. And as Crone mentions, the rising cost and long-term resources issues are, well, issues.So long as comics continue to have hard copies printed I don't care what happens in the digital market but when the last floppy or tpb rolls off the line that will be the last dollar I will spend on comics.
Crone, if you don't mind my asking, what kind of direct utility do you draw from the iPad? I already have a laptop, desktop, and iPhone, so for me it seems more like an expensive toy at the moment.
#34
wana10
wana10
Because a pad carved from a solid block of aluminum is so environmentally friendly...
But seriously, I've heard, and I'll fully admit I've not done the research to verify this claim, that reading a page on the internet is just as damaging as reading a page printed on a modern press.
Edit* Here's the thing, last year the Louvre at 8.5 million visitors. Why? Ten seconds on google and I can probably have a 1024*768 pic of any work of art there. Now I'm not going to be as crazy as to claim equality between all the works of art there and all the comics released tomorrow but there must be a reason people take the time to see the real thing. For me, it's more tangible to hold a book, to flip the pages, that's why i keep buying comics.
But seriously, I've heard, and I'll fully admit I've not done the research to verify this claim, that reading a page on the internet is just as damaging as reading a page printed on a modern press.
Edit* Here's the thing, last year the Louvre at 8.5 million visitors. Why? Ten seconds on google and I can probably have a 1024*768 pic of any work of art there. Now I'm not going to be as crazy as to claim equality between all the works of art there and all the comics released tomorrow but there must be a reason people take the time to see the real thing. For me, it's more tangible to hold a book, to flip the pages, that's why i keep buying comics.
#35
Chazwozel
Aluminum is the third most abundant element on Earth. It makes up like 10% of the weight of all the solids on Earth.
Chazwozel
Because a pad carved from a solid block of aluminum is so environmentally friendly...
But seriously, I've heard, and I'll fully admit I've not done the research to verify this claim, that reading a page on the internet is just as damaging as reading a page printed on a modern press.
Aluminum is the third most abundant element on Earth. It makes up like 10% of the weight of all the solids on Earth.
#36
LittleSin
LittleSin
I like the idea of digital distribution. I agree with Scott.
Though I would like to mention that the comic store that I frequent is bright, spacious and has a very friendly staff. I have witnessed loitering nerds that read issues and put them back...but Bob, the ownver, it pretty good about kicking those guys to the curb. There is one chick that take it a bit far though. I picked up a book once, read the back and put it down...she then started to talking loudly to Bob about how he should kick me out because I was reading the books.
Bob looked at me, then at her and said "She's one of my best customers and she buys most everythingshe touches. Keep your voice down."
I love Bob, even though he's a tad...odd.
Though I would like to mention that the comic store that I frequent is bright, spacious and has a very friendly staff. I have witnessed loitering nerds that read issues and put them back...but Bob, the ownver, it pretty good about kicking those guys to the curb. There is one chick that take it a bit far though. I picked up a book once, read the back and put it down...she then started to talking loudly to Bob about how he should kick me out because I was reading the books.
Bob looked at me, then at her and said "She's one of my best customers and she buys most everythingshe touches. Keep your voice down."
I love Bob, even though he's a tad...odd.
#37
Andromache
Andromache
damn you. just got shark bit with science.
tk: i love my iphone. i dont have a netbook, and my laptop is now the kids bang bang toy (modem removed.) killer app for me is having s little device that has all my iphone apps on it with more screen space and process muscle. plus jesus the sketch app from autodesk is like a mini psd. but dont try to divine your usefulness from mine. as a handy platform device waiting for where ever developers will take the ipad, i love it but that doesn't mean anyone else will. i certainly cant say its more awesome than everything out there but i certainly do find myself using it and liking it the more i use it.
tk: i love my iphone. i dont have a netbook, and my laptop is now the kids bang bang toy (modem removed.) killer app for me is having s little device that has all my iphone apps on it with more screen space and process muscle. plus jesus the sketch app from autodesk is like a mini psd. but dont try to divine your usefulness from mine. as a handy platform device waiting for where ever developers will take the ipad, i love it but that doesn't mean anyone else will. i certainly cant say its more awesome than everything out there but i certainly do find myself using it and liking it the more i use it.
#38
wana10
wana10
that's great, look up methods for refining aluminum ore into something usable.Aluminum is the third most abundant element on Earth. It makes up like 10% of the weight of all the solids on Earth.
#39
Andromache
Andromache
right so basically wana is just trolling for argument. got it moving on...
#40
wana10
wana10
wait, who brought up the environmental aspect of this discussion? sure wasn't me.
#41
Andromache
Andromache
a) not me, i was focused on costs due to supply and b) your response to Chazwozel indicates you're not really willing to address the point he raises, but choose to go off in a different direction that doesn't actually touch on your initial assertion that hard copy is better. Gasbandit 2.0 tactics, that. whatever.wait, who brought up the environmental aspect of this discussion? sure wasn't me.
#42
wana10
1) me saying i prefer hard copy
2) you asking if i've considered the ramifications of dwindling resources
3) my throw away comment about aluminum because of apple touting their unibody construction followed by a more serious comment where i ask if hard copies are really more damaging
4) chaz comments on the aluminum part saying aluminum is abundant
5) my statement that methods for refining aluminum is also damaging. is this off mav's original topic? sure. was it a follow up to a path that the conversation had taken? absolutely.
Never once did i say hard copy is better. i said that it was my preference. you want me to focus on my preference for hardcopy? sure, did that too. gave an example of the louvre which hasn't been commented on.
edit* i focused on the dwindling resource portion of your initial response instead of the cost of supplies.
wana10
lets run through it shall we?a) not me, i was focused on costs due to supply and b) your response to Chazwozel indicates you're not really willing to address the point he raises, but choose to go off in a different direction that doesn't actually touch on your initial assertion that hard copy is better. Gasbandit 2.0 tactics, that. whatever.
1) me saying i prefer hard copy
2) you asking if i've considered the ramifications of dwindling resources
3) my throw away comment about aluminum because of apple touting their unibody construction followed by a more serious comment where i ask if hard copies are really more damaging
4) chaz comments on the aluminum part saying aluminum is abundant
5) my statement that methods for refining aluminum is also damaging. is this off mav's original topic? sure. was it a follow up to a path that the conversation had taken? absolutely.
Never once did i say hard copy is better. i said that it was my preference. you want me to focus on my preference for hardcopy? sure, did that too. gave an example of the louvre which hasn't been commented on.
edit* i focused on the dwindling resource portion of your initial response instead of the cost of supplies.
#43
Hailey Knight
Hailey Knight
I only know where my local comic book store is because it recently set up shop and it's part of a chain.
As for books, I will not get a Kindle because of DRM meaning I can get locked out of books, and because I like books as books. I like holding a chunk of dead tree in my hand and turning pages. If the actual book format is ever gone, I hope it's after I'm gone.
As for books, I will not get a Kindle because of DRM meaning I can get locked out of books, and because I like books as books. I like holding a chunk of dead tree in my hand and turning pages. If the actual book format is ever gone, I hope it's after I'm gone.
#44
Andromache
Andromache
I dont think it will be gone in our lifetime, just quite a bit more expensive. Back on topic though, your chain comment kinda touches on a part of the problem. Mega chains react slower, and creative efforts suffer for it.I only know where my local comic book store is because it recently set up shop and it's part of a chain.
As for books, I will not get a Kindle because of DRM meaning I can get locked out of books, and because I like books as books. I like holding a chunk of dead tree in my hand and turning pages. If the actual book format is ever gone, I hope it's after I'm gone.
#45
figmentPez
If digital versions of comics cost as much as print, count me out. I'll come onboard with digital comics when they cost less than the print version, because they're worth less to me in digital form (especially if they have DRM and I'm just renting them).
figmentPez
I really doubt that is going to be an issue anytime soon, if ever. As I said before, I buy print editions of webcomics. I absolutely love Applegeeks Volumes 1 & 2, and I'm so glad I bought them. I could read every single comic in them online if I wanted to, but print is so much better. I'd love to have every webcomic I love in print form, but I don't have the money.I don't like the ipad comic model for the same reason I don't like the itunes music model. However, I understand I'm in the minority with this feeling. So long as comics continue to have hard copies printed I don't care what happens in the digital market but when the last floppy or tpb rolls off the line that will be the last dollar I will spend on comics.
If digital versions of comics cost as much as print, count me out. I'll come onboard with digital comics when they cost less than the print version, because they're worth less to me in digital form (especially if they have DRM and I'm just renting them).
#46
Andromache
Andromache
thats the money question. If digital comics add more value than analogue ( and i think the tech is there for creators) who wouldn't go that route?
#47
CynicismKills
CynicismKills
I'd rather spend 20-25 bucks for a trade I can browse on my comp (online or a download, whatevs) as opposed to spending 30+ just to get a 6-book collection. I mean, I can't see Marvel/DC/etc ever fully abandoning paper, as even the occasional GIANT LOOK AT ME I'M ONLY 60 BUCKS AND I'M MADE OF SILVER editions of the first 800 issues of X-Men will sell like hotcakes to collectors.
#48
Andromache
Andromache
but that business model means the costs get shifted, not disappeared, right? Higher costs don't go away
#49
CynicismKills
CynicismKills
Suppose that's possible, yeah. I guess it'd end up as some kind of monthly deal, or they wouldn't give you as many comics per trade set as they do now.but that business model means the costs get shifted, not disappeared, right? Higher costs don't go away
#50
Andromache
Andromache
digital copies are easier to create than physical ones. Costs will adjust accordingly, or that sector will struggle to profit.
#51
Covar
As far as Kurtz's statement, he's so biased towards his business model He's hardly one to tell people how it should be done. If he had his way there would be no print media at all. He can make plenty of money, so obviously everyone else can.
Covar
I think Trades would have been a smarter way to go for Marvel, than old issues sold slightly less than cover price. I'm a big fan of my local comic book store and think that undercutting retailers would be a huge mistake for Marvel or DC. As a technology lover I see the potential for the iPad with digital comics, but as a comic fan I hate the idea of loosing my local store.I'd rather spend 20-25 bucks for a trade I can browse on my comp (online or a download, whatevs) as opposed to spending 30+ just to get a 6-book collection. I mean, I can't see Marvel/DC/etc ever fully abandoning paper, as even the occasional GIANT LOOK AT ME I'M ONLY 60 BUCKS AND I'M MADE OF SILVER editions of the first 800 issues of X-Men will sell like hotcakes to collectors.
As far as Kurtz's statement, he's so biased towards his business model He's hardly one to tell people how it should be done. If he had his way there would be no print media at all. He can make plenty of money, so obviously everyone else can.
#52
SpecialKO
For digital sales, no additional materials are necessary. There's no further cost associated with producing a physical comic, just a labour cost for creating the digital file. So instead of spending $1 to produce an issue and charging $2.00 to a retailer to stock it, they're spending $0.10 in labor per issue or less and selling it for $2.50 directly to a consumer who is used to spending $3 per issue.
So it's more that they're generating additional sales revenue from the same already-produced material, so their overall cost of goods sold per inventory sold goes down significantly, and profit rises accordingly.
They won't actually reduce production costs via the development of a digital model until they begin reducing their print production inventory in response to consumer preference for digital media.
So we're still a long way from a definitive digital model. Which is why they have enormous freedom right now to experiment, hence why they should be experimenting.
SpecialKO
Well, it's a little more complicated than that. At this point, Marvel/DC and the rest won't be reducing their print production because they don't have a current reason to (unsold inventory issues, aside, which is hard to determine since they don't sell directly to the consumer). So production costs of the material stay the same.but that business model means the costs get shifted, not disappeared, right? Higher costs don't go away
For digital sales, no additional materials are necessary. There's no further cost associated with producing a physical comic, just a labour cost for creating the digital file. So instead of spending $1 to produce an issue and charging $2.00 to a retailer to stock it, they're spending $0.10 in labor per issue or less and selling it for $2.50 directly to a consumer who is used to spending $3 per issue.
So it's more that they're generating additional sales revenue from the same already-produced material, so their overall cost of goods sold per inventory sold goes down significantly, and profit rises accordingly.
They won't actually reduce production costs via the development of a digital model until they begin reducing their print production inventory in response to consumer preference for digital media.
So we're still a long way from a definitive digital model. Which is why they have enormous freedom right now to experiment, hence why they should be experimenting.
#53
Necronic
Necronic
Just to bring it back to a somewhat inflamatory point, Paper is a completely renewable resource. The iPhone, and all the things that go into making it (alumninum being the most unimportant) is composed of a LOT of non-renewable resources, most importantly Indium Tin Oxide. Indium is sourced almost entirely from China and Canada, and the estimates of actual global supplies are at best questionable. The really scary thing is that its consumption rate is shooting through the friggin roof these days, as it is essentially the only material capable of making low cost touch screens. And if anyone brings up light scattering touch screens like those found in Microsoft Surface, well....please DIAF.
#54
kaykordeath
kaykordeath
Currently, I buy floppies week to week because I like the episodic telling of the story. Unfolding piece by piece. I also like to be a member of an online community that can discuss the story as it unfolds. As such, I spend more money than I would if I waited for the trades.
As such, I would love to subscribe to a digital book at a lower price point, as I'd still have the same exact story experience. I would also be many many times more likely to buy the trades to satisfy any "collectors" urges I might have, in effect, buying the same material twice. So count me in the "publishers are missing the boat" camp.
As such, I would love to subscribe to a digital book at a lower price point, as I'd still have the same exact story experience. I would also be many many times more likely to buy the trades to satisfy any "collectors" urges I might have, in effect, buying the same material twice. So count me in the "publishers are missing the boat" camp.
#55
checkeredhat
checkeredhat
I stopped reading because I don't particularly enjoy arguments between Chaz and Mav. Its really ONLY entertainging for Chaz.
But on the topic of the OP; while they definitely should be releasing the current comics in that format, I disagree entirely that they shouldn't be giving us old comics in a digital format as well. I think that's actually a brilliant idea that is bound to entice new readers, and probably even old readers who long ago sold their comics.
I feel like even though nerds are inarguably taking over mainstream media now FINALLY, there is still something that is seen socially as being immature about reading a comic book. I think that digital distribution would lend it a bit of class, and perhaps more importantly, a bit of personal confidentiality. Nobody needs to know that you're reading about the wonderful dual life of Tony Stark, Mr. first class flying CEO. You're just reading the news, right?
But on the topic of the OP; while they definitely should be releasing the current comics in that format, I disagree entirely that they shouldn't be giving us old comics in a digital format as well. I think that's actually a brilliant idea that is bound to entice new readers, and probably even old readers who long ago sold their comics.
I feel like even though nerds are inarguably taking over mainstream media now FINALLY, there is still something that is seen socially as being immature about reading a comic book. I think that digital distribution would lend it a bit of class, and perhaps more importantly, a bit of personal confidentiality. Nobody needs to know that you're reading about the wonderful dual life of Tony Stark, Mr. first class flying CEO. You're just reading the news, right?
#56
Bowielee
Bowielee
If they offered digital versions of current books, they'd be making a hell of a lot more money off of me than they currently are, which is zero.
#57
Null
Null
The digital vs print issue is something I actually know a little about, or at least have a personal perspective on. To wit, 2/3 of the books we sell are PDFs, not print copies. This is good for us in a lot of ways - we don't have to order a large print run, which has a lot of up front costs. Many online gaming sites can "stock" our material readily in PDF form - DriveThruRPG is a good example. The PDF is usually 55-60% of the dead tree version in terms of price. Without digital distribution, we wouldn't be doing well at all. And that's besides all of our products that are PDF only. We're doing a few Print on Demand, but honestly, most of 4WFG's sales are digital, not print. So we have a very good perspective on what this business model can do for us.
#58
Necronic
Necronic
I like it too!I stopped reading because I don't particularly enjoy arguments between Chaz and Mav. Its really ONLY entertainging for Chaz.
#59
Espy
I spend ZERO right now on comics... if they were digital my wife would be hiding my credit cards.
Espy
AMEN BROTHER BOWIELEE. PREACH IT.If they offered digital versions of current books, they'd be making a hell of a lot more money off of me than they currently are, which is zero.
I spend ZERO right now on comics... if they were digital my wife would be hiding my credit cards.
#60
Chazwozel
Who didn't like my forum union??!? Who I ask you, who?
Chazwozel
I like it too![/QUOTE]I stopped reading because I don't particularly enjoy arguments between Chaz and Mav. Its really ONLY entertainging for Chaz.
Who didn't like my forum union??!? Who I ask you, who?
#61
Gusto
Who didn't like my forum union??!? Who I ask you, who?[/QUOTE]
BlackCat, for one.
Gusto
I like it too![/QUOTE]I stopped reading because I don't particularly enjoy arguments between Chaz and Mav. Its really ONLY entertainging for Chaz.
Who didn't like my forum union??!? Who I ask you, who?[/QUOTE]
BlackCat, for one.
#62
Chazwozel
Who didn't like my forum union??!? Who I ask you, who?[/QUOTE]
BlackCat, for one.[/QUOTE]
Let me rephrase.
Who didn't like my forum union that isn't a douchebag?
Chazwozel
I like it too![/QUOTE]I stopped reading because I don't particularly enjoy arguments between Chaz and Mav. Its really ONLY entertainging for Chaz.
Who didn't like my forum union??!? Who I ask you, who?[/QUOTE]
BlackCat, for one.[/QUOTE]
Let me rephrase.
Who didn't like my forum union that isn't a douchebag?
#63
Covar
I spend ZERO right now on comics... if they were digital my wife would be hiding my credit cards.[/QUOTE]
I'm interested in hearing you, Ame and Bowielee's opinion on this; Would you purchase them if comics were delayed digtally a few months like they are with bookstores?
Covar
AMEN BROTHER BOWIELEE. PREACH IT.If they offered digital versions of current books, they'd be making a hell of a lot more money off of me than they currently are, which is zero.
I spend ZERO right now on comics... if they were digital my wife would be hiding my credit cards.[/QUOTE]
I'm interested in hearing you, Ame and Bowielee's opinion on this; Would you purchase them if comics were delayed digtally a few months like they are with bookstores?
#64
Covar
I spend ZERO right now on comics... if they were digital my wife would be hiding my credit cards.[/QUOTE]
I'm interested in hearing you, Ame and Bowielee's opinion on this; Would you purchase them if comics were delayed digtally a few months like they are with bookstores?[/QUOTE]
Why would there need to be a delay? To stop 'pirating' and make sure people still read the paper copies? That would have an adverse affect and people would still be downloading torrents of the (new, up to date) scanned comics.
Why would a delay be deemed necessary to make this feasible?
Thinking more on this.. offer both? Discount in subscription price for the bigger delay you have.. read new comics for full price, 4 weeks old for 20% less, and so on ? (up to a point).[/QUOTE]
A delay would be for the same reason they are delayed to Bookstores, to continue support of the small business that are your local comic retailers.
Covar
AMEN BROTHER BOWIELEE. PREACH IT.If they offered digital versions of current books, they'd be making a hell of a lot more money off of me than they currently are, which is zero.
I spend ZERO right now on comics... if they were digital my wife would be hiding my credit cards.[/QUOTE]
I'm interested in hearing you, Ame and Bowielee's opinion on this; Would you purchase them if comics were delayed digtally a few months like they are with bookstores?[/QUOTE]
Why would there need to be a delay? To stop 'pirating' and make sure people still read the paper copies? That would have an adverse affect and people would still be downloading torrents of the (new, up to date) scanned comics.
Why would a delay be deemed necessary to make this feasible?
Thinking more on this.. offer both? Discount in subscription price for the bigger delay you have.. read new comics for full price, 4 weeks old for 20% less, and so on ? (up to a point).[/QUOTE]
A delay would be for the same reason they are delayed to Bookstores, to continue support of the small business that are your local comic retailers.
#65
figmentPez
figmentPez
So, sell digital subscriptions through local stores with bonuses. Those Green Lantern rings that came with issues of Blackest Night? Don't offer them direct from DC, but only if you buy through a comic shop. Allows for both digital distribution, and for comic shops to get better exposure.A delay would be for the same reason they are delayed to Bookstores, to continue support of the small business that are your local comic retailers.
#66
SpecialKO
I would like to see a model where you can buy individual issues digitally direct from the publisher, but local comic stores are able to "bundle" a subscription or customer loyalty licensing key for comic downloads for customers who buy through their store. As was mentioned above, different comic stores have different customer profiles. A store which does big business selling shtuff volume discounts on the number of comics downloaded for people who buy more than $50/month on other paraphernalia, for example.
Customers get their comics and support their local store, the local store gets a solid toehold into the digital download market, and the big publishers are able to sell subscriptions in volume through the stores and create a relationship making it easy to do custom in-store promotions for digital downloaders to boost sales.
EDIT: Doh! ninja'ed
---------- Post added at 03:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:00 PM ----------
SpecialKO
I actually think that's a bad business model, because it stifles impulse purchases, which is particularly bad for comics.A delay would be for the same reason they are delayed to Bookstores, to continue support of the small business that are your local comic retailers.
I would like to see a model where you can buy individual issues digitally direct from the publisher, but local comic stores are able to "bundle" a subscription or customer loyalty licensing key for comic downloads for customers who buy through their store. As was mentioned above, different comic stores have different customer profiles. A store which does big business selling shtuff volume discounts on the number of comics downloaded for people who buy more than $50/month on other paraphernalia, for example.
Customers get their comics and support their local store, the local store gets a solid toehold into the digital download market, and the big publishers are able to sell subscriptions in volume through the stores and create a relationship making it easy to do custom in-store promotions for digital downloaders to boost sales.
EDIT: Doh! ninja'ed
---------- Post added at 03:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:00 PM ----------
This works out well, actually. Most comic stores make a much higher margin on the gimimcks than they do the comics.As much as I like having gimmicks, I solely read comics to read them, not to get a ring or any of the other fancy crap they throw with it at times. That's more for collectors who would still go to comic stores anyway.
#67
Totally Not Soliloquy
Granted, the change from two different physical mediums is much different than the change to a digital medium, so you may be right.
Totally Not Soliloquy
You'd think that would be true, but the reduced cost of CDs over cassettes didn't keep music companies from charging the same prices.digital copies are easier to create than physical ones. Costs will adjust accordingly, or that sector will struggle to profit.
Granted, the change from two different physical mediums is much different than the change to a digital medium, so you may be right.
That's like, the most insulting version of the No True Scotsman fallacy I've ever seen.Let me rephrase.
Who didn't like my forum union that isn't a douchebag?
#68
Chazwozel
Granted, the change from two different physical mediums is much different than the change to a digital medium, so you may be right.
No true formite would dare dispute it!
Chazwozel
You'd think that would be true, but the reduced cost of CDs over cassettes didn't keep music companies from charging the same prices.digital copies are easier to create than physical ones. Costs will adjust accordingly, or that sector will struggle to profit.
Granted, the change from two different physical mediums is much different than the change to a digital medium, so you may be right.
That's like, the most insulting version of the No True Scotsman fallacy I've ever seen.[/QUOTE]Let me rephrase.
Who didn't like my forum union that isn't a douchebag?
No true formite would dare dispute it!
#70
drawn_inward
drawn_inward
Butthurt hipster commentates on the butthurt nerd wars. :sneaky:ITT: Butthurt nerd whines about other butthurt nerd
#71
Andromache
You rot in hell, you red commie bastard.
/oldschool
Andromache
Butthurt hipster commentates on the butthurt nerd wars. :sneaky:[/QUOTE]ITT: Butthurt nerd whines about other butthurt nerd
You rot in hell, you red commie bastard.
/oldschool
#72
Jay
Jay
#73
Andromache
Andromache
heh. Nice Tune.
#74
Fun Size
Fun Size
Downloaded the Marvel app last night. Read three free comics. It's a cool app, and as someone who doesn't buy comics (I get trades from the library), I was almost tempted to continue to one I was reading, but two bucks seems a little steep to me. If the $50 a year subscription gave me access, then I think would be on board, but apparently even with the subscription you pay $2 a book. Seems silly to me.
#75
Andromache
Andromache
that seems... broken as a biz model. Also? Welcome to the club. May I recommend having an extra towel when using it in the tub?Downloaded the Marvel app last night. Read three free comics. It's a cool app, and as someone who doesn't buy comics (I get trades from the library), I was almost tempted to continue to one I was reading, but two bucks seems a little steep to me. If the $50 a year subscription gave me access, then I think would be on board, but apparently even with the subscription you pay $2 a book. Seems silly to me.
#76
SpecialKO
SpecialKO
Wait, so what does the subscription get you?Downloaded the Marvel app last night. Read three free comics. It's a cool app, and as someone who doesn't buy comics (I get trades from the library), I was almost tempted to continue to one I was reading, but two bucks seems a little steep to me. If the $50 a year subscription gave me access, then I think would be on board, but apparently even with the subscription you pay $2 a book. Seems silly to me.
#77
Fun Size
Fun Size
The subscription gets you (legal) online access to a ton of comics if I read it correctly. I would only be interested in it if I could use it with my phone, though. I can see where it's going to take time (they actually set up each comic to work on the phone app, which is one of the main reasons it impressed me), but still, even to just get a static set for now might make it worth it.
#78
ThatNickGuy
ThatNickGuy
I've missed this entire argument, due to being away for the last week, so...
...you know what I love?
I don't have to plug in or recharge my comics & books. And their batteries don't run out.
That's good enough for me.
...you know what I love?
I don't have to plug in or recharge my comics & books. And their batteries don't run out.
That's good enough for me.
#79
@Li3n
@Li3n
But those 2 hours between when the comic comes out and the pirates buy it, scan it and post it online make all the difference...Why would there need to be a delay? To stop 'pirating' and make sure people still read the paper copies? That would have an adverse affect and people would still be downloading torrents of the (new, up to date) scanned comics.
#80
Chazwozel
Chazwozel
I'm guessing in about 10 to 15 years plugs for handheld electronics will be obsolete.I've missed this entire argument, due to being away for the last week, so...
...you know what I love?
I don't have to plug in or recharge my comics & books. And their batteries don't run out.
That's good enough for me.
#81
ThatNickGuy
ThatNickGuy
Honestly, I'd give it less than that. Already, we've got that those pads you plug in and let your handhelds (whatever they are) recharge just by laying on it. Just a matter of moving that even more forward.
Still, my point still stands. I find I can't do much comprehensive digital reading. And it's not the same as holding a book in your hands. Sure, digitall will become more and more common. Heck, I'm already seeing it more and more common among Toronto transiters.
Still, my point still stands. I find I can't do much comprehensive digital reading. And it's not the same as holding a book in your hands. Sure, digitall will become more and more common. Heck, I'm already seeing it more and more common among Toronto transiters.
#82
Espy
Espy
It's just one of those things that is going to be harder for some to transition over to, but eventually when you do it more and more it will become normal, etc. I've played with the iPad and Kindle and I'd be happy reading on either of them, but for comics the iPad will be amazing. If the comic companies get their heads out of their stinkeroos.Honestly, I'd give it less than that. Already, we've got that those pads you plug in and let your handhelds (whatever they are) recharge just by laying on it. Just a matter of moving that even more forward.
Still, my point still stands. I find I can't do much comprehensive digital reading. And it's not the same as holding a book in your hands. Sure, digitall will become more and more common. Heck, I'm already seeing it more and more common among Toronto transiters.