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Man or Woman?
#1
Jay
This has been discussed everywhere today...
http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/52489,new ... -athletics
Jay
This has been discussed everywhere today...
http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/52489,new ... -athletics
Teenager, who has lived her whole life as a woman, must undergo weeks of tests to establish if she has male chromosomes.
South African middle-distance runner Caster Semenya is at the centre of a controversy over her gender after winning gold in the women's 800m at the athletics World Championships. Such is the furore off the track that instead of celebrating her victory the 18-year-old, who won the race in a new personal best of 1:55.45, was forced to duck out of the limelight. The teenager only managed half-a-lap of honour before being whisked away from the stadium, avoiding the media and the winner's press conference.
She will be back in the stadium today to collect her gold medal, and her appearance alone could overshadow many of the other events taking place.
Although Semenya has lived her whole life as a female her strength and appearance have raised fears that she may have been born with a rare abnormality, where she has grown up with the genitalia of a woman but has the chromosomes of a male.
#2
If there's been no gender reassignment surgery and she has a vagina then give her the gold.
#3
Jay
Jay
To be honest, I look more of a woman than Caster.
#4
Shakey
Shakey
Exactly. It seems no different than allowing people with abnormally large hearts or lungs to compete.Edrondol said:If there's been no gender reassignment surgery and she has a vagina then give her the gold.
#5
Ravenpoe
Ravenpoe
If she identifies as, and lives her life as, then she is a woman.
As to whether she has XX or XY chromosomes, that's another matter altogether.
As to whether she has XX or XY chromosomes, that's another matter altogether.
#6
Espy
Espy
Are you saying that if she is actually a male but lives as a female she should be allowed to compete with women in these races? I think her fellow runners may disagree with that...Ravenpoe said:If she identifies as, and lives her life as, then she is a woman.
As to whether she has XX or XY chromosomes, that's another matter altogether.
#7
Shegokigo
Shegokigo
Well Phelps is half fish, but I don't hear anyone bitch about that.... not on the American side that is....
#8
Ravenpoe
Ravenpoe
I didn't say that at all. I was replying to the question of whether one believes her to be a man or a woman.Espy said:Are you saying that if she is actually a male but lives as a female she should be allowed to compete with women in these races? I think her fellow runners may disagree with that...Ravenpoe said:If she identifies as, and lives her life as, then she is a woman.
As to whether she has XX or XY chromosomes, that's another matter altogether.
#9
Eriol
Eriol
The whole reason for men's and woman's sports being divided is that there is a physical difference between the two genders (at the top end, and on average). Thus if you're dividing it such, then yes, the genetics contributing DO affect, and have an effect on who should be allowed to compete in each category.
That being said, there are sports where such a division makes no sense. Curling for example.
That being said, there are sports where such a division makes no sense. Curling for example.
#10
Espy
Espy
I know you didn't say that, hence my asking you what you thought based upon your comments. If you don't want to say thats fine, I was just asking what you thought since those definitions get so confusing when real world scenarios have to be dealt with. It wasn't meant to put you on the defensive, I was just really interested in what you thought.Ravenpoe said:I didn't say that at all. I was replying to the question of whether one believes her to be a man or a woman.Espy said:Are you saying that if she is actually a male but lives as a female she should be allowed to compete with women in these races? I think her fellow runners may disagree with that...Ravenpoe said:If she identifies as, and lives her life as, then she is a woman.
As to whether she has XX or XY chromosomes, that's another matter altogether.
#11
ElJuski
ElJuski
I am trying really damn hard to see whether I even remotely care about what apparently is a whole lot of hubbub.
...
Hrrrmrmmmrmrmmmmmmnnnnnmmnnnnnnnnnnghh
...
Hrrrmrmmmrmrmmmmmmnnnnnmmnnnnnnnnnnghh
#12
Ravenpoe
I didn't comment on whether she should be allowed to compete because I honestly don't have much of an opinion there. That's for the olympic committy to decide. If they have a rule that defines that only people with XX chromosomes can compete in the women's games, then that's the rule, and if the woman in question gets disqualified because of that, then that's unfortunate for her.
Ravenpoe
Don't worry, I'm not defensive. You'll know when that happens, because I'll go into 'fuck you' modeEspy said:I know you didn't say that, hence my asking you what you thought based upon your comments. If you don't want to say thats fine, I was just asking what you thought since those definitions get so confusing when real world scenarios have to be dealt with. It wasn't meant to put you on the defensive, I was just really interested in what you thought.Ravenpoe said:I didn't say that at all. I was replying to the question of whether one believes her to be a man or a woman.Espy said:Are you saying that if she is actually a male but lives as a female she should be allowed to compete with women in these races? I think her fellow runners may disagree with that...Ravenpoe said:If she identifies as, and lives her life as, then she is a woman.
As to whether she has XX or XY chromosomes, that's another matter altogether.
I didn't comment on whether she should be allowed to compete because I honestly don't have much of an opinion there. That's for the olympic committy to decide. If they have a rule that defines that only people with XX chromosomes can compete in the women's games, then that's the rule, and if the woman in question gets disqualified because of that, then that's unfortunate for her.
#13
Jay
Jay
To me, it's all a question of genetics... how fair is it to the other female runners if someone has the obviously superior genetics of a man and wins the race without any effort?
:smug:
:smug:
#14
The Lovely Boehner
The Lovely Boehner
this thread is such a lame troll
#15
Shegokigo
Shegokigo
I knew it'd be a matter of seconds before Charlie would chime in. Well done Jay.SeriousJay said:To me, it's all a question of genetics... how fair is it to the other female runners if someone has the obviously superior genetics of a man and wins the race without any effort?
:smug:
#16
Jay
Jay
Mission Accomplished. 
#17
doomdragon6
doomdragon6
Thing is, genetics plays a part in... you know.. EVERYTHING. A woman who is slightly stronger than this one might have slightly manlier chromosomes. So if you're born a woman with a man's chromosomes-- fuck it! You're the best for that reason!
I saw a Guniess World Records thing recently about a man with the stretchiest skin. It's because he has a disorder that fails to attach his skin properly or something, so he can pull it out a good number of inches.
Genetics OBVIOUSLY makes a fucking difference here. What about a "Stetchiest Skin Without This Disorder" award? That kind of thing.
I saw a Guniess World Records thing recently about a man with the stretchiest skin. It's because he has a disorder that fails to attach his skin properly or something, so he can pull it out a good number of inches.
Genetics OBVIOUSLY makes a fucking difference here. What about a "Stetchiest Skin Without This Disorder" award? That kind of thing.
#18
Chibibar
Chibibar
so......... physically she is a woman and genetically she has male genetics?
How is that possible? wouldn't male genetics = male parts? I have heard about rare instance where someone is born with both, but usually that is fix to be one gender or another (not sure if it is true just hear/read stories) could someone educate us in genetics.
How is that possible? wouldn't male genetics = male parts? I have heard about rare instance where someone is born with both, but usually that is fix to be one gender or another (not sure if it is true just hear/read stories) could someone educate us in genetics.
#19
GeneralOrder24
GeneralOrder24
It's a dude. Look, he's even got a declaration to "semen ya" on his shirt.
#20
sixpackshaker
sixpackshaker
This has happened at least twice before. But those times the cheaters where doing the "tuck rule".
It would be cool for an aging male athlete to get gender reassignment, then go compete in women's events.
It would be cool for an aging male athlete to get gender reassignment, then go compete in women's events.
#21
GasBandit
GasBandit
I remember reading in newsweek 10 or 15 years ago about the plight of those who had been born with BOTH a penis and a vagina at birth, and the very first thing the doctor did when they were born was take a quick swipe with the scalpel and cheerfully call out "It's a girl!" Often the parents were not even notified, much less asked what action they wanted taken. My thought was this person could be one such a person, who may have Y chromosomes yet be "physically female" because they were given an involuntary "sex correction" procedure at birth.
#22
sixpackshaker
sixpackshaker
There was even an episode of House that dealt with that....GasBandit said:I remember reading in newsweek 10 or 15 years ago about the plight of those who had been born with BOTH a penis and a vagina at birth, and the very first thing the doctor did when they were born was take a quick swipe with the scalpel and cheerfully call out "It's a girl!" Often the parents were not even notified, much less asked what action they wanted taken. My thought was this person could be one such a person, who may have Y chromosomes yet be "physically female" because they were given an involuntary "sex correction" procedure at birth.
#23
-heh- Sorry, Charlie.
Sorry, Charlie, but this is international sports news.Charlie Dont Surf said:this thread is such a lame troll
-heh- Sorry, Charlie.
#24
Rob King
Rob King
I always see gender as coming down to chromosomes, not what parts you have, or how you identify.
#25
That's "sex" you're talking about. "Gender" has a whole other meaning in studies of culture and sociology, and very much has to do with identity.Rob King said:I always see gender as coming down to chromosomes, not what parts you have, or how you identify.
#26
klew
More here with the very bottom paragraphs discussing athletics
klew
Read up on Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (possibly NSFW images)Chibibar said:so......... physically she is a woman and genetically she has male genetics?
How is that possible? wouldn't male genetics = male parts? I have heard about rare instance where someone is born with both, but usually that is fix to be one gender or another (not sure if it is true just hear/read stories) could someone educate us in genetics.
More here with the very bottom paragraphs discussing athletics
their androgen resistance, whether complete or partial, means that unlike other women they are naturally resistant to the strength-promoting qualities of testosterone
#27
Calleja
Calleja
No, it IS different, there are no categories for people with large hearts or lungs, there is, however, a category for those with the genetics of a human male.Shakey said:Exactly. It seems no different than allowing people with abnormally large hearts or lungs to compete.Edrondol said:If there's been no gender reassignment surgery and she has a vagina then give her the gold.
#28
ElJuski
ElJuski
Let's talk about sex baby let's talk about you and me
#29
Rob King
But now ... thinking about that, then sex is binary, and gender is ... far more complicated. If gender is tied to sociology and identity, I feel uncomfortable thinking about it in terms of male or female. We're really looking at an entire spectrum of possibilities. Or more than a spectrum, really, because a spectrum sounds far too one-dimensional.
With regards to the OP, though, I feel that whatever the results come back as with regards to the sex of the athlete is how they should be categorized. I don't particularly care to see this sort of thing birth a Trans-gender/Gender-confused category at the next Olympics.
Rob King
Oh. Right.ZenMonkey said:That's "sex" you're talking about. "Gender" has a whole other meaning in studies of culture and sociology, and very much has to do with identity.Rob King said:I always see gender as coming down to chromosomes, not what parts you have, or how you identify.
But now ... thinking about that, then sex is binary, and gender is ... far more complicated. If gender is tied to sociology and identity, I feel uncomfortable thinking about it in terms of male or female. We're really looking at an entire spectrum of possibilities. Or more than a spectrum, really, because a spectrum sounds far too one-dimensional.
With regards to the OP, though, I feel that whatever the results come back as with regards to the sex of the athlete is how they should be categorized. I don't particularly care to see this sort of thing birth a Trans-gender/Gender-confused category at the next Olympics.
#30
Steve
Steve
Measure her manhood. If it's less than 7 inches long it's a woman. I'm all man.
#31
crono1224
I just think of the simpsons quote about barts evil twin "Too crazy for boys town, too much of a boy for crazy town", except it works for being part boy/girl or what ever.
crono1224
Worlds tallest man without that one growing thing. The problems probably are more or less not everything is so easily cut and dry.doomdragon6 said:Thing is, genetics plays a part in... you know.. EVERYTHING. A woman who is slightly stronger than this one might have slightly manlier chromosomes. So if you're born a woman with a man's chromosomes-- fuck it! You're the best for that reason!
I saw a Guniess World Records thing recently about a man with the stretchiest skin. It's because he has a disorder that fails to attach his skin properly or something, so he can pull it out a good number of inches.
Genetics OBVIOUSLY makes a fucking difference here. What about a "Stetchiest Skin Without This Disorder" award? That kind of thing.
I just think of the simpsons quote about barts evil twin "Too crazy for boys town, too much of a boy for crazy town", except it works for being part boy/girl or what ever.
#32
Andromache
Andromache
If she's intersex, that may make things a bit muddled policies-wise.
personally I don't care what gender/sex she is. I'd tap that ass.
personally I don't care what gender/sex she is. I'd tap that ass.
#33
crono1224
crono1224
Guh, I'm not exactly hugely attractive, but It certainly does not appeal to me.
#34
Andromache
Andromache
I find attraction more in talent than looks. Though if I were going by looks, Sera Realm is tied with Shego for hottest women ever. (I've had the pleasure of seeing Shego's real unblocked face. She's sexxxy)crono1224 said:Guh, I'm not exactly hugely attractive, but It certainly does not appeal to me.
#35
Bubble181
Bubble181
When'd you get back? Huzzah!
That said, I'll wait for the doctors to decide the sex; genderwise, she seems clearly female.
That said, I'll wait for the doctors to decide the sex; genderwise, she seems clearly female.
#36
Chazwozel
I think I would disagree with that since technically she would be a man if she's got XY chromosomes. They don't exactly let Tranny's run their opposite gender's sporting events.
-- Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:11 pm --
Call it sex or whatever. An X and a Y = male, which equals disqualified from female events.
Chazwozel
Espy said:Are you saying that if she is actually a male but lives as a female she should be allowed to compete with women in these races? I think her fellow runners may disagree with that...Ravenpoe said:If she identifies as, and lives her life as, then she is a woman.
As to whether she has XX or XY chromosomes, that's another matter altogether.
I think I would disagree with that since technically she would be a man if she's got XY chromosomes. They don't exactly let Tranny's run their opposite gender's sporting events.
-- Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:11 pm --
ZenMonkey said:That's "sex" you're talking about. "Gender" has a whole other meaning in studies of culture and sociology, and very much has to do with identity.Rob King said:I always see gender as coming down to chromosomes, not what parts you have, or how you identify.
Call it sex or whatever. An X and a Y = male, which equals disqualified from female events.
#37
klew
klew
Male-to-female transsexuals who have undergone gender reassignment have been allowed to participate in some women's athletics, as the testosterone blockers and female hormone treatments may make them "weaker" than genetic women who are in great shape or predisposed to higher-than-average muscle development for a female.
#38
Shakey
Shakey
If you are born female, live your life as a female, and are only different due to a genetic abnormality, I don't see a difference. If she had a sex change, or was hiding her true gender to gain an edge, it would be different.Calleja said:No, it IS different, there are no categories for people with large hearts or lungs, there is, however, a category for those with the genetics of a human male.Shakey said:Exactly. It seems no different than allowing people with abnormally large hearts or lungs to compete.Edrondol said:If there's been no gender reassignment surgery and she has a vagina then give her the gold.
#39
Shegokigo
rly:
Shegokigo
You still know how to make me squirm around in my chair. :redface: Though I know what follows this response though....Crone said:I find attraction more in talent than looks. Though if I were going by looks, Sera Realm is tied with Shego for hottest women ever. (I've had the pleasure of seeing Shego's real unblocked face. She's sexxxy)
rly:
#40
@Li3n
@Li3n
Actually i read that they don't use chromosomes exclusively anymore, coz you can have both XX and XY...Ravenpoe said:If she identifies as, and lives her life as, then she is a woman.
As to whether she has XX or XY chromosomes, that's another matter altogether.
It did for far longer then it didn't... and it does from a biological standpoint.AmorousEyes said:also: gender != sex.
#41
Before this gets stupider than it has to, are you nitpicking just for the sake of arguing, or are you honestly ignorant on the subject?@Li3n said:It did for far longer then it didn't... and it does from a biological standpoint.
#42
@Li3n
You should also note that some languages have no word like gender (the closest we have is a word that would be better translated as "type" or "kind") and just use sex with some descriptor before it to denote what they're referring to...
@ZM
It's just how i roll...
@Li3n
Exactly... the definition you're using is specific to a certain field or fields... most likely that deal with the social aspect of gender.AmorousEyes said:I happen to know a whole list of specialists who would disagree vehemently with this statement.@Li3n said:It did for far longer then it didn't... and it does from a biological standpoint.AmorousEyes said:also: gender != sex.
You should also note that some languages have no word like gender (the closest we have is a word that would be better translated as "type" or "kind") and just use sex with some descriptor before it to denote what they're referring to...
@ZM
It's just how i roll...
#44
@Li3n
@Li3n
Wait, i didn't do that already when you got pissed at me when i said being a spiritual atheist was stupid?! Damn, i got to try harder.
EDIT: Oh, and i just came up with a reason why that was stupid: "Because if you're an atheist you don't believe in spirits (like Buddhists do), so you're just corrupting the word to mean something that for you should just be a chemical reaction in your brain/a natural phenomenon (i don't exactly remember what you argued was spiritual)"... how's that?!
EDIT: Oh, and i just came up with a reason why that was stupid: "Because if you're an atheist you don't believe in spirits (like Buddhists do), so you're just corrupting the word to mean something that for you should just be a chemical reaction in your brain/a natural phenomenon (i don't exactly remember what you argued was spiritual)"... how's that?!
#45
I give people the benefit of the doubt sometimes.
#46
@Li3n
@Li3n
How does it feel to get disappointed so much?!ZenMonkey said:I give people the benefit of the doubt sometimes.
#47
Ravenpoe
Ravenpoe
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/willful_ignorance@Li3n said:*snip everything he's ever said*
#48
@Li3n
@Li3n
One of the definitions of gender in the dictionary is as a synonym of sex... so sex!=gender = WRONG. Simple logic really...
Also, this could have all been avoided if someone just said: "right, but that's just one definition, and we're using the other one here". Not that anyone ever does... though it's always nice to know i can depend on people to do what i expect them to...
Also, this could have all been avoided if someone just said: "right, but that's just one definition, and we're using the other one here". Not that anyone ever does... though it's always nice to know i can depend on people to do what i expect them to...
#49
Ravenpoe
Ravenpoe
@Li3n said:One of the definitions of gender in the dictionary is as a synonym of sex... so sex!=gender = WRONG. Simple logic really...
Also, this could have all been avoided if someone just said: \"right, but that's just one definition, and we're using the other one here\". Not that anyone ever does... though it's always nice to know i can depend on people to do what i expect them to...
Ravenpoe said:http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/willful_ignorance@Li3n said:*snip everything he's ever said*
#50
I'm not disappointed, @Li3n. I just prefer not to write someone off as a troll until I know for sure. You've helped me with that tonight.
@Li3n said:Also, this could have all been avoided if someone just said: "right, but that's just one definition, and we're using the other one here". Not that anyone ever does...
ZenMonkey said:That's "sex" you're talking about. "Gender" has a whole other meaning in studies of culture and sociology, and very much has to do with identity.Rob King said:I always see gender as coming down to chromosomes, not what parts you have, or how you identify.
#51
@Li3n
@Li3n
?Oh, you where expecting me to read something you told someone else... that would be too untrollish, wouldn't it...
Also:
Also:
It did for far longer then it didn't... and it does from a biological standpoint.
Exactly... the definition you're using is specific to a certain field or fields... most likely that deal with the social aspect of gender.
#52
Bubble181
Bubble181
Zen...Why are you bothering? Isn't the point of identifying someone as a troll (and not A Troll, who was nice and seems MIA under that username), to ignore them and not feed them? You don't seem to enjoy playing with trolls, the way some do; you just seem to get annoyed by it (not here [yet], just going on past experience), so....why even reply further than "bad troll. Bad!"?
That aside, @li3n: bad troll! Bad! :-P
That aside, @li3n: bad troll! Bad! :-P
#53
@Li3n
@Li3n
She is powerless to resist my awesome trolling power, that's why... MUHAHAHAHAHAHA.... 
But this discussion went of the rail long before i posted, as obviously the test aren't about the gender the athlete has from a social standpoint... (though if she is intersex then it will depend on social bias i guess).
But this discussion went of the rail long before i posted, as obviously the test aren't about the gender the athlete has from a social standpoint... (though if she is intersex then it will depend on social bias i guess).
#55
Chazwozel
And sports don't suck. There's a lot of value learned in team sports and being physically peaked is just as important for your life balance as other aspects. Sports let human beings do what they do best on a primal level; that is, being competitive mammals.
Chazwozel
The artificial limb folks compete against each other. There's no advantage of one over the other. Besides, the Special Olympics is more about getting these people with terrible handicaps and having them overcome their disability. In other words, it's not about getting a gold metal more so than a limbless person actually being able to run on a competitive level. The person in the OP article is competing in a different way, that is she's going up against the best of the best, and would have have a clear advantage if she had XY chromosomes. Her testosterone levels can be much higher to the point of resembling steroid use in women. Then again...it's not like it's her own choice, but genetically she would be a man. I just wouldn't be able to condone letting her metal against women who are at a disadvantage in terms of that kind of hormone output. If it turns out she's got the pair of X's though, more power to her in the women's events! I mean look at the Flyod Landis doping case. His claim was that his natural testosterone to estrogen level was 11:1. All the same, he was charged for doping and lost his metals.AmorousEyes said:Sports suck.
And I highly doubt I could win or be any good at ANY of these type of events, in any gender category.
Genetic or not, there's no flippin' way I could ever outrun any of these people, no matter how much I trained.
What about those 'Special' Olympics these days where people have artificial limbs that are far superior to genetic ones?
Eh, I'll stick to my original standpoint.
Sports suck.
also: gender != sex.
And sports don't suck. There's a lot of value learned in team sports and being physically peaked is just as important for your life balance as other aspects. Sports let human beings do what they do best on a primal level; that is, being competitive mammals.
#56
D
Dubyamn
Of course that's assuming that she's XY. From what I hear the women who actually have the condition turn out much more... buxom than she did. But of course there are exceptions and odd presentations to every disease known so it's still possible.
D
Dubyamn
But the reason why she would be born female with XY chromosomes is that she has a reduced reaction to Testosterone which is why when she was in the womb she formed as a female. I mean this is the first I've ever heard of somebody claiming that XY is the genetic code for some kind of superwoman.Chazwozel said:The person in the OP article is competing in a different way, that is she's going up against the best of the best, and would have have a clear advantage if she had XY chromosomes. Her testosterone levels can be much higher to the point of resembling steroid use in women. Then again...it's not like it's her own choice, but genetically she would be a man. I just wouldn't be able to condone letting her metal against women who are at a disadvantage in terms of that kind of hormone output.
Of course that's assuming that she's XY. From what I hear the women who actually have the condition turn out much more... buxom than she did. But of course there are exceptions and odd presentations to every disease known so it's still possible.
The Flyod Landis case always struck me as really screwy. I mean it was so ridiculously high that he really would have taken a simply huge amount assuming that he wouldn't get caught which makes no sense to me.If it turns out she's got the pair of X's though, more power to her in the women's events! I mean look at the Flyod Landis doping case. His claim was that his natural testosterone to estrogen level was 11:1. All the same, he was charged for doping and lost his metals.
#57
Chibibar
Chibibar
I wonder about those "super genes" (what I barely remember from Biology in college) XXX and XXy There are some women who has these (not sure how) how does that work?
#58
D
Dubyamn
The homologous chromosomes stay together in the second step so 2 of the cells at the end will have 3 chromosomes in them while 2 of the cells will have only 1 chromosome. Now normally the X and Y chromosomes split up so that the Daughter Nuclei have only X or Y chromosomes. However if they don't split up one daughter Nuclei will have X and Y chromosomes and the 2 sperm or eggs produced from them will have both. The children from these will be have the XXy and XXX genotype.
The other side will have neither an X or a Y so the 2 sperm or eggs produced from that cell will also have neither. Children from these will have only 1 X chromosome since only a Y chromosome will not allow life.
D
Dubyamn
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Meiosis_Overview.svgChibibar said:I wonder about those \"super genes\" (what I barely remember from Biology in college) XXX and XXy There are some women who has these (not sure how) how does that work?
The homologous chromosomes stay together in the second step so 2 of the cells at the end will have 3 chromosomes in them while 2 of the cells will have only 1 chromosome. Now normally the X and Y chromosomes split up so that the Daughter Nuclei have only X or Y chromosomes. However if they don't split up one daughter Nuclei will have X and Y chromosomes and the 2 sperm or eggs produced from them will have both. The children from these will be have the XXy and XXX genotype.
The other side will have neither an X or a Y so the 2 sperm or eggs produced from that cell will also have neither. Children from these will have only 1 X chromosome since only a Y chromosome will not allow life.
#59
Chibibar
Chibibar
so would XXy consider to be female or male (since there is a y) what if the physical person is all female (parts, hormones and all) but the genetic code has a y. That is where I'm going with this questionDubyamn said:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Meiosis_Overview.svgChibibar said:I wonder about those \"super genes\" (what I barely remember from Biology in college) XXX and XXy There are some women who has these (not sure how) how does that work?
The homologous chromosomes stay together in the second step so 2 of the cells at the end will have 3 chromosomes in them while 2 of the cells will have only 1 chromosome. Now normally the X and Y chromosomes split up so that the Daughter Nuclei have only X or Y chromosomes. However if they don't split up one daughter Nuclei will have X and Y chromosomes and the 2 sperm or eggs produced from them will have both. The children from these will be have the XXy and XXX genotype.
The other side will have neither an X or a Y so the 2 sperm or eggs produced from that cell will also have neither. Children from these will have only 1 X chromosome since only a Y chromosome will not allow life.
#60
D
Dubyamn
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter%27s_syndrome
D
Dubyamn
They're male.Chibibar said:so would XXy consider to be female or male (since there is a y) what if the physical person is all female (parts, hormones and all) but the genetic code has a y. That is where I'm going with this question
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter%27s_syndrome
#61
Chibibar
so in Olympic issue, they would need to compete in the male division instead of female right?
if that is the case, then if this person is proven XY (or XXY) then they would be male and disqualify on the medal?
Chibibar
Dubyamn said:They're male.Chibibar said:so would XXy consider to be female or male (since there is a y) what if the physical person is all female (parts, hormones and all) but the genetic code has a y. That is where I'm going with this question
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter%27s_syndrome
so in Olympic issue, they would need to compete in the male division instead of female right?
if that is the case, then if this person is proven XY (or XXY) then they would be male and disqualify on the medal?
#64
sixpackshaker
sixpackshaker
But South Africa is not hosting the games. Nor do they have 313,000,000 soldiers ready for service.SeraRelm said:They let kids compete, why not man-women?
#65
D
Dubyamn
She won her medal fair and square. If the governing bodies have a problem with it they need to shell out for genetic tests for every competitor before the race begins and not change up the rules after the race is run.
D
Dubyamn
It would probably never enter their minds to enter the female division seeing as how they were born with a Penis. Same reason why this woman entered the competition as a female because every time she looked down she saw vag.Chibibar said:so in Olympic issue, they would need to compete in the male division instead of female right?
Why? She was born female grew up female her entire life thought that she was female and is only now being genetically tested and humiliated because of sore losers. She didn't cheat, lie or in anyway shape or form. There is no proof that she gained anything from her genetic makeup so why should she be humiliated and her career ruined because of random chance giving her a resistance to Testosterone?if that is the case, then if this person is proven XY (or XXY) then they would be male and disqualify on the medal?
She won her medal fair and square. If the governing bodies have a problem with it they need to shell out for genetic tests for every competitor before the race begins and not change up the rules after the race is run.
#66
sixpackshaker
sixpackshaker
There was no change in the rules. If you cheat, you cheat. It does not matter whether or not you know. Just like how baseball players cry because they did not know that the 'clear' was steroids/whatever. They took a banned substance and got caught.
Her career is not over, she can just start running against the men. But then the men would complain because she has less "between the legs resistance."
Her career is not over, she can just start running against the men. But then the men would complain because she has less "between the legs resistance."
#67
D
Dubyamn
And there is a change in the rules. Before the competition a quick glace between the legs was all that was necessary afterwords a full genetic test.
http://berlin.iaaf.org/results/racedate ... 800_hash_f
http://berlin.iaaf.org/results/racedate ... 00_hash_sf
Every male on the field beat her time by 9-10 seconds and these races are decided by fractions of seconds. She will not be able to compete.
D
Dubyamn
If you really believe that the baseball players thought that they were being injected with multivitamins I have a bridge I would love to sell you.sixpackshaker said:There was no change in the rules. If you cheat, you cheat. It does not matter whether or not you know. Just like how baseball players cry because they did not know that the 'clear' was steroids/whatever. They took a banned substance and got caught.
And there is a change in the rules. Before the competition a quick glace between the legs was all that was necessary afterwords a full genetic test.
Yes and I'm sure her lower testosterone, shorter legs and hundred other physical differences will allow her to be a real competitor with men who can heal faster, gain muscle mass faster and have increased stamina.Her career is not over, she can just start running against the men. But then the men would complain because she has less \"between the legs resistance.\"
http://berlin.iaaf.org/results/racedate ... 800_hash_f
http://berlin.iaaf.org/results/racedate ... 00_hash_sf
Every male on the field beat her time by 9-10 seconds and these races are decided by fractions of seconds. She will not be able to compete.
#68
Norris
Norris
True. But there is a reason for it: there's no reason to test for cheating before someone kicks everyone else's ass. Had she come in third, there would be reason to suspect cheating....but no reason to root it out since she was gaining too much of an untoward advantage from it. If you're cheating and fall even JUST above average, fewer people care because you're not truly beating the best of the best of the best, sir! If you cheat and beat everyone else, then people start to care.Dubyamn said:And there is a change in the rules. Before the competition a quick glace between the legs was all that was necessary afterwords a full genetic test.
#69
strawman
-Adam
strawman
-Adam
#70
D
Dubyamn
D
Dubyamn
But there is no reason to suspect cheating in this case. Like I said she doesn't fit the standard phenotype for XY women nor is there any link between XY giving athletes an advantage over normal XX women so unless you are proposing that all winners automatically get genetically tested or have to prove that they are genetically women you are changing the rules after the race is run.Dorko said:True. But there is a reason for it: there's no reason to test for cheating before someone kicks everyone else's a**. Had she come in third, there would be reason to suspect cheating....but no reason to root it out since she was gaining too much of an untoward advantage from it.
#71
sixpackshaker
sixpackshaker
But that is the advantage she has over these other 'World Class' Athletes is that she has a good chanceof being an 18 year old boy (that is a World Class Athlete.) Let her keep working out and compete as a man when she gets stronger and faster through her mid twenties.Dubyamn said:Yes and I'm sure her lower testosterone, shorter legs and hundred other physical differences will allow her to be a real competitor with men who can heal faster, gain muscle mass faster and have increased stamina.
#72
strawman
Further, it is well known (and allowed in the rules) that other teams may complain and request that additional testing be done on those that won. One reason is cost - if no one is complaining, why test everyone? Why not limit the testing to just the top 5% and reduce your costs by 95%? There's nothing inherently unfair about this.
No rules have changed, this is standard operating procedure in professional athletics.
Even if there was no reason to doubt someone's sex, another team may still demand such tests.
In some (most?) cases the ruling body will refuse.
Often, even if it already knows the answer, they will do the testing anyway simply to satisfy everyone that the ruling body has closed the case, and the rankings stand.
This is no different than Lance Armstrong getting 10-50x more doping tests during nearly all of his tour du france races than most other racers - France itself object to an American winning all the time, so even though nothing was ever found (save for some spurious b testing that isn't official) they will still continue to test him more than anyone else - because he's winning and represents a threat to their national pride.
The rules have not changed. The practices have not changed. The culture has not changed. The politics have not changed.
The only reason this is news is because she's leaving her competitors in the dust, breaking records, and lady looks like a dude.
Once the test results are done, and the officials ratify the race results, we can all go home. Until then it's merely entertaining news.
-Adam
strawman
It is quite well known in the athletics community that winners receive additional scrutiny above and beyond all other competitors.Dubyamn said:But there is no reason to suspect cheating in this case. Like I said she doesn't fit the standard phenotype for XY women nor is there any link between XY giving athletes an advantage over normal XX women so unless you are proposing that all winners automatically get genetically tested or have to prove that they are genetically women you are changing the rules after the race is run.Dorko said:True. But there is a reason for it: there's no reason to test for cheating before someone kicks everyone else's a**. Had she come in third, there would be reason to suspect cheating....but no reason to root it out since she was gaining too much of an untoward advantage from it.
Further, it is well known (and allowed in the rules) that other teams may complain and request that additional testing be done on those that won. One reason is cost - if no one is complaining, why test everyone? Why not limit the testing to just the top 5% and reduce your costs by 95%? There's nothing inherently unfair about this.
No rules have changed, this is standard operating procedure in professional athletics.
Even if there was no reason to doubt someone's sex, another team may still demand such tests.
In some (most?) cases the ruling body will refuse.
Often, even if it already knows the answer, they will do the testing anyway simply to satisfy everyone that the ruling body has closed the case, and the rankings stand.
This is no different than Lance Armstrong getting 10-50x more doping tests during nearly all of his tour du france races than most other racers - France itself object to an American winning all the time, so even though nothing was ever found (save for some spurious b testing that isn't official) they will still continue to test him more than anyone else - because he's winning and represents a threat to their national pride.
The rules have not changed. The practices have not changed. The culture has not changed. The politics have not changed.
The only reason this is news is because she's leaving her competitors in the dust, breaking records, and lady looks like a dude.
Once the test results are done, and the officials ratify the race results, we can all go home. Until then it's merely entertaining news.
-Adam
#73
sixpackshaker
STELLA!!!!!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Stephens
sixpackshaker
http://soccerlens.com/the-15-greatest-s ... ime/29838/Dubyamn said:But there is no reason to suspect cheating in this case. Like I said she doesn't fit the standard phenotype for XY women nor is there any link between XY giving athletes an advantage over normal XX women so unless you are proposing that all winners automatically get genetically tested or have to prove that they are genetically women you are changing the rules after the race is run.Dorko said:True. But there is a reason for it: there's no reason to test for cheating before someone kicks everyone else's a**. Had she come in third, there would be reason to suspect cheating....but no reason to root it out since she was gaining too much of an untoward advantage from it.
Stella Walsh had a pretty ingenious sports hack: ambiguous genitalia! Walsh was an Olympic competitor for Poland, winning the gold in the 100m sprint in 1932, and the silver in 1936. Walsh set 18 world records in her life, but accusations that she was male dogged her for years, and she was forced to undergo a gender check at the 1936 Olympics. Which she apparently passed, despite the fact that when she was autopsied following her death it was found that she had male genitalia, along with female characteristics. Further investigation revealed that she had both an XX and an XY pair of chromosomes.
Dora Ratjen was a German athlete who competed in the 1936 Olympics in the High Jump. Not much of a story really, except for one thing: Dora was actually Hermann, a man who was coerced by the Hitler Youth into tightly binding his genitals and competing against women. The German Olympic team struggled in the previous Olympic games, and so it was thought entering a man here and there on the women’s side of things might remedy the situation. But German men couldn’t even beat the women of other countries, as Ratjen finished fourth, failing to medal.
STELLA!!!!!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Stephens
#74
D
Dubyamn
If you can have your medal yanked for a medical condition that you don't even know you have it is unfair to be tested after you ran and won. Also let's not get into the ethics of revealing genetic information to the entire world. No laws will protect her from any discrimination that she recieves if she is revealed to be a genetic male.
D
Dubyamn
Yes but we're not talking testing her urine for drugs. We are talking a genetic test for something that she had no way of knowing ahead of time.stienman said:It is quite well known in the athletics community that winners receive additional scrutiny above and beyond all other competitors.
Further, it is well known (and allowed in the rules) that other teams may complain and request that additional testing be done on those that won. One reason is cost - if no one is complaining, why test everyone? Why not limit the testing to just the top 5% and reduce your costs by 95%? There's nothing inherently unfair about this.
If you can have your medal yanked for a medical condition that you don't even know you have it is unfair to be tested after you ran and won. Also let's not get into the ethics of revealing genetic information to the entire world. No laws will protect her from any discrimination that she recieves if she is revealed to be a genetic male.
Genetic testing is SOP in professional athletics? Since when?No rules have changed, this is standard operating procedure in professional athletics.
Name one other time that athletes have had to undergo Genetic testing in order to prove their sex.Even if there was no reason to doubt someone's sex, another team may still demand such tests.
In some (most?) cases the ruling body will refuse.
Often, even if it already knows the answer, they will do the testing anyway simply to satisfy everyone that the ruling body has closed the case, and the rankings stand.
Yes and of course doping and the like has a shown effect on athlete's performance being an XY female has never been shown to give any such advantages.This is no different than Lance Armstrong getting 10-50x more doping tests during nearly all of his tour du france races than most other racers - France itself object to an American winning all the time, so even though nothing was ever found (save for some spurious b testing that isn't official) they will still continue to test him more than anyone else - because he's winning and represents a threat to their national pride.
They're genetically testing somebody and will display those results for the whole world to see on no clear evidence or reasonable suspicion. They are ruining a career and a life over something that she has absolutely no control over. The practices have changed and the culture has changed if this is at all acceptable.The rules have not changed. The practices have not changed. The culture has not changed. The politics have not changed.
The only reason this is news is because she's leaving her competitors in the dust, breaking records, and lady looks like a dude.
Nope unfortunately not. If this goes forward every sports governing body will have the right to demand genetic tests from it's competitors and unfortunately no country has laws that protect against any possible discrimination or abuse that can arise from these tests which will become more common place as people start demanding them for every winner that violates their national pride.Once the test results are done, and the officials ratify the race results, we can all go home. Until then it's merely entertaining news.
-Adam
#75
@Li3n
@Li3n
Wait, as i understood the testing took place before the race, the results are just taking a while...
#76
strawman
Genetic testing HAS been done for sport questions before now, and will continue to be something people may ask to be tested in the future.
It doesn't matter whether she knew or not. If she is not a female homo sapien according to the definition listed in the race rules and regulations, then she was ineligible to race. Her prior knowledge of her condition is not a factor. She signed agreements prior to the competition that essentially state that she believes she is eligible, but if found not to be, regardless of her own knowledge or complicity, then she will be stripped of any titles or awards granted from the competition.
Go ahead and rage all you want about the injustice of it, but at the end of the day there's a legal standard that she signed on to, and they are following it. You can petition them if you feel it's unfair or unjust.
-Adam
strawman
Yes, there is a performance difference between xx and xy humans. If you believe that this is in dispute, then we'll simply have to agree to disagree.Dubyamn said:Yes but we're not talking testing her urine for drugs. We are talking a genetic test for something that she had no way of knowing ahead of time.stienman said:It is quite well known in the athletics community that winners receive additional scrutiny above and beyond all other competitors.
Further, it is well known (and allowed in the rules) that other teams may complain and request that additional testing be done on those that won. One reason is cost - if no one is complaining, why test everyone? Why not limit the testing to just the top 5% and reduce your costs by 95%? There's nothing inherently unfair about this.
If you can have your medal yanked for a medical condition that you don't even know you have it is unfair to be tested after you ran and won. Also let's not get into the ethics of revealing genetic information to the entire world. No laws will protect her from any discrimination that she recieves if she is revealed to be a genetic male.
Genetic testing HAS been done for sport questions before now, and will continue to be something people may ask to be tested in the future.
It doesn't matter whether she knew or not. If she is not a female homo sapien according to the definition listed in the race rules and regulations, then she was ineligible to race. Her prior knowledge of her condition is not a factor. She signed agreements prior to the competition that essentially state that she believes she is eligible, but if found not to be, regardless of her own knowledge or complicity, then she will be stripped of any titles or awards granted from the competition.
Go ahead and rage all you want about the injustice of it, but at the end of the day there's a legal standard that she signed on to, and they are following it. You can petition them if you feel it's unfair or unjust.
-Adam
#77
Shakey
Shakey
But is their definition specific enough to cover this? Supposedly she was born with female genitalia, determined a female on the birth certificate, and raised as a female. To me that screams female no matter what any other test shows.stienman said:t doesn't matter whether she knew or not. If she is not a female homo sapien according to the definition listed in the race rules and regulations, then she was ineligible to race.
#78
Chibibar
I can understand if HE turn into a SHE via operation and hormones and such. Thus that is a total different story (cause the person knew) but from birth until now, the person in question was a she (physically at least) but the genetic testing showing suppose to be a "he" I think after this, the Olympic would have to rewrite the rules to cover this stuff for the next competition.
Chibibar
This is what I am thinking.Shakey said:But is their definition specific enough to cover this? Supposedly she was born with female genitalia, determined a female on the birth certificate, and raised as a female. To me that screams female no matter what any other test shows.stienman said:t doesn't matter whether she knew or not. If she is not a female homo sapien according to the definition listed in the race rules and regulations, then she was ineligible to race.
I can understand if HE turn into a SHE via operation and hormones and such. Thus that is a total different story (cause the person knew) but from birth until now, the person in question was a she (physically at least) but the genetic testing showing suppose to be a "he" I think after this, the Olympic would have to rewrite the rules to cover this stuff for the next competition.
#79
@Li3n
@Li3n
the question isn't one of gender or sex, but of having an unfair advantage... and the rules are older then you think: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_ver ... _in_sports
also, wiki has sources that say she was tested before the race: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya
also, wiki has sources that say she was tested before the race: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya
#80
Rob King
Rob King
It's all very interesting to see people defending her because she had no knowledge that something could be wrong. That's a very individual-centered thing to do. If you cease to empathize for a moment, and forget to look at things from her perspective, it becomes very clear that she is an outlier among the athletes. While being an outlier isn't grounds enough to be suspended from the race, if she is an outlier with an unfair advantage then all bets are off.
I'm not condemning it, or coming down on the other side of the issue. I'm just commenting. Societies with heavy belief in individuality seem to make things more complicated.
I'm not condemning it, or coming down on the other side of the issue. I'm just commenting. Societies with heavy belief in individuality seem to make things more complicated.
#81
Norris
Norris
While I understand the apparent unfairness of penalizing her for something she had no knowledge of, it doesn't change the fact that a rule was broken. It doesn't matter if you don't know that you are breaking it, you still broke it and you still get the penalty.
#82
Shakey
From what we know this isn't someone who is hiding their true gender to gain an advantage. This isn't someone who changed genders and now has an advantage. This is someone who is naturally better because they are different. She is according to her sexual organs, a female. I'm not empathizing, just wondering why one natural physical advantage can be tolerated and another not be.
Shakey
But where do you draw a line with unfair advantages? Like I said before, there are people with abnormally large hearts and lungs who completely dominate not because they trained harder or committed themselves more, but because they have a bigger organs that allow themselves to push their body farther and harder than it should be. Should they be banned too to make it an even playing field?Rob King said:It's all very interesting to see people defending her because she had no knowledge that something could be wrong. That's a very individual-centered thing to do. If you cease to empathize for a moment, and forget to look at things from her perspective, it becomes very clear that she is an outlier among the athletes. While being an outlier isn't grounds enough to be suspended from the race, if she is an outlier with an unfair advantage then all bets are off.
I'm not condemning it, or coming down on the other side of the issue. I'm just commenting. Societies with heavy belief in individuality seem to make things more complicated.
From what we know this isn't someone who is hiding their true gender to gain an advantage. This isn't someone who changed genders and now has an advantage. This is someone who is naturally better because they are different. She is according to her sexual organs, a female. I'm not empathizing, just wondering why one natural physical advantage can be tolerated and another not be.
#83
SeraRelm
SeraRelm
I just read Crone's comment.
#84
D
Dubyamn
D
Dubyamn
Nice bending of the arguement. Unfortunately your statement is a complete non sequitur since the arguement is that there is no difference between a XX female and an XY female. For that you have no evidence to believe that there is a difference.stienman said:Yes, there is a performance difference between xx and xy humans. If you believe that this is in dispute, then we'll simply have to agree to disagree.
Yes and it was a ridiculous violation of people's rights and it will continue to be in the future.Genetic testing HAS been done for sport questions before now, and will continue to be something people may ask to be tested in the future.
Except that she is female homo sapian. She has a uterus, ovaries a vagoo and could have a child. The rule is absolutely absurd and has no basis in fact or scientific reasoning.It doesn't matter whether she knew or not. If she is not a female homo sapien according to the definition listed in the race rules and regulations, then she was ineligible to race. Her prior knowledge of her condition is not a factor. She signed agreements prior to the competition that essentially state that she believes she is eligible, but if found not to be, regardless of her own knowledge or complicity, then she will be stripped of any titles or awards granted from the competition.
#85
Rob King
Let me throw a hypothetical at you, though. Imagine we discovered some island culture somewhere in the world where traditonal gender roles were reversed. Men stayed at home and took care of the kids, while the women went off to hunt and do hard labor. If they entered athletes into the Olympics, in what category would they compete? Biology has given the men superior bodies, but if we had to identify them separately from their bodies, we might call them women.
Or maybe that's not a good one. How about another? Imagine in two hundred years, if gender roles the world over were thrown out the window. How would we divide the athletes then, if not by biology?
What I'm saying is: how you identify doesn't matter. If this woman can have children, then I'm conflicted as to what her biology says. If she can't ... I'm less conflicted, but still conflicted. I haven't been familiar with this genetic condition that we keep talking about for longer than two days.
This is all fascinating to watch, though, for the simple reason that it's a bit of a canary-in-the-coal-mine for what is surely the inevitability of future generations defining and classifying people by their genes.
Sorry if this post was ramble-ey. I just worked a very mentally draining 12 hours, am up later than I should be.
Rob King
Actually, this was going to be a question I asked, until I forgot it. CAN she have children? I don't know what the implications of this hypothetical genetic condition are, so ... I was just wondering.Dubyamn said:Except that she is female homo sapian. She has a uterus, ovaries a vagoo and could have a child. The rule is absolutely absurd and has no basis in fact or scientific reasoning.It doesn't matter whether she knew or not. If she is not a female homo sapien according to the definition listed in the race rules and regulations, then she was ineligible to race. Her prior knowledge of her condition is not a factor. She signed agreements prior to the competition that essentially state that she believes she is eligible, but if found not to be, regardless of her own knowledge or complicity, then she will be stripped of any titles or awards granted from the competition.
Again, this sort of gets into the whole who-cares-her-intentions? It would be worse if she knew about this, or planned it, and kept silent. If that were the case, this would be a simple matter of throwing her out, and we wouldn't have a three page thread on it. I realize that she's a victim of this situation more than anyone else, but her intentions shouldn't factor into the call at all. Her biology, and how the committee decides that her biology fits into the Male/Female divide in sports, is what's in questionDorko said:From what we know this isn't someone who is hiding their true gender to gain an advantage. This isn't someone who changed genders and now has an advantage. This is someone who is naturally better because they are different. She is according to her sexual organs, a female. I'm not empathizing, just wondering why one natural physical advantage can be tolerated and another not be.
Let me throw a hypothetical at you, though. Imagine we discovered some island culture somewhere in the world where traditonal gender roles were reversed. Men stayed at home and took care of the kids, while the women went off to hunt and do hard labor. If they entered athletes into the Olympics, in what category would they compete? Biology has given the men superior bodies, but if we had to identify them separately from their bodies, we might call them women.
Or maybe that's not a good one. How about another? Imagine in two hundred years, if gender roles the world over were thrown out the window. How would we divide the athletes then, if not by biology?
What I'm saying is: how you identify doesn't matter. If this woman can have children, then I'm conflicted as to what her biology says. If she can't ... I'm less conflicted, but still conflicted. I haven't been familiar with this genetic condition that we keep talking about for longer than two days.
This is all fascinating to watch, though, for the simple reason that it's a bit of a canary-in-the-coal-mine for what is surely the inevitability of future generations defining and classifying people by their genes.
Sorry if this post was ramble-ey. I just worked a very mentally draining 12 hours, am up later than I should be.
#86
klew
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmaaOSJ7XEU:2ba7cprl][/youtube:2ba7cprl]
klew
By then, we'll be having the Olympics in space (apologies to non-US people), which will be so cool no one will care about gender.Rob King said:Imagine in two hundred years, if gender roles the world over were thrown out the window. How would we divide the athletes then, if not by biology?
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmaaOSJ7XEU:2ba7cprl][/youtube:2ba7cprl]
#87
Rob King
My conclusion is that athletes from different planets probably won't be able to compete against each-other properly. A Martian would be at a disadvantage on earth, because of the greater gravity, and if atmospheres are even slightly different, it could throw everything out of whack.
Rob King
Is it bad that I've already thought about this long and hard?klew said:By then, we'll be having the Olympics in space (apologies to non-US people), which will be so cool no one will care about gender.
My conclusion is that athletes from different planets probably won't be able to compete against each-other properly. A Martian would be at a disadvantage on earth, because of the greater gravity, and if atmospheres are even slightly different, it could throw everything out of whack.
#88
AshburnerX
AshburnerX
However, new sports could become possible... now where is the XKCD strip...Rob King said:Is it bad that I've already thought about this long and hard?klew said:By then, we'll be having the Olympics in space (apologies to non-US people), which will be so cool no one will care about gender.
My conclusion is that athletes from different planets probably won't be able to compete against each-other properly. A Martian would be at a disadvantage on earth, because of the greater gravity, and if atmospheres are even slightly different, it could throw everything out of whack.
#89
strawman
-Adam
strawman
I hadn't read that. If this is true then I would be surprised if they invalidated her race results.Dubyamn said:She has a uterus, ovaries a vagoo and could have a child.
-Adam
#90
JONJONAUG
Also, this thread is stupid (I blame the school system for limiting their teaching of gender differentiation to "XX=female, XY=male"). Shakey's got it right with comparing this to having a big heart or lungs. Any condition that causes someone with XY chromosomes to appear female would also eliminate any advantages that males would have in sporting competitions. While it might make it easier for her to train or compete, there are plenty of other ways someone can have a slight biological advantage over their competitors (and that's what this would be, VERY slight). Singling her out for this is like going up to a basketball player and saying "you can't compete here, you're too tall".
There's also the distinct possibility that she has XX sex chromosomes and this is all just a bunch of hoopla.
JONJONAUG
Looks to me like CAIS, but don't take my word for it. This means no babies (not that I can think of any intersex condition off the top of my head where an XY female can reproduce).Dubyamn said:Except that she is female homo sapian. She has a uterus, ovaries a vagoo and could have a child. The rule is absolutely absurd and has no basis in fact or scientific reasoning.
Also, this thread is stupid (I blame the school system for limiting their teaching of gender differentiation to "XX=female, XY=male"). Shakey's got it right with comparing this to having a big heart or lungs. Any condition that causes someone with XY chromosomes to appear female would also eliminate any advantages that males would have in sporting competitions. While it might make it easier for her to train or compete, there are plenty of other ways someone can have a slight biological advantage over their competitors (and that's what this would be, VERY slight). Singling her out for this is like going up to a basketball player and saying "you can't compete here, you're too tall".
There's also the distinct possibility that she has XX sex chromosomes and this is all just a bunch of hoopla.
#91
I
Icarus
In any case, this is a tough one. She does have a very male look and I read she had considerable hair growth all over her body (including her face) and has a more male physiology. If it does turn out she's partially male in whatever way, how do you decide where to draw the line? How do you decide how far these male parts affect her performance? In any case, you got to feel bad for her because she obviously just worked hard to get where she is, and she didn't chose to look/be like this.
I
Icarus
That argument is just as baseless as the one that says she's a guy. No-one knows for sure that she's 100% female so your "could have a child" comment is just conjecture. Stick to what is known as facts, please. The test hasn't been fully done yet, so we'll just need to wait for the results, even if it's more than likely she's 100% female with just a high level of testosterone (I wonder, is there an advantage to taking testosterone as an athlete?).Dubyamn said:Except that she is female homo sapian. She has a uterus, ovaries a vagoo and could have a child. The rule is absolutely absurd and has no basis in fact or scientific reasoning.It doesn't matter whether she knew or not. If she is not a female homo sapien according to the definition listed in the race rules and regulations, then she was ineligible to race. Her prior knowledge of her condition is not a factor. She signed agreements prior to the competition that essentially state that she believes she is eligible, but if found not to be, regardless of her own knowledge or complicity, then she will be stripped of any titles or awards granted from the competition.
In any case, this is a tough one. She does have a very male look and I read she had considerable hair growth all over her body (including her face) and has a more male physiology. If it does turn out she's partially male in whatever way, how do you decide where to draw the line? How do you decide how far these male parts affect her performance? In any case, you got to feel bad for her because she obviously just worked hard to get where she is, and she didn't chose to look/be like this.
#92
Norris
Norris
So wait, it is an invasion of people's rights to check to be sure they are actually following the rules of an event they CHOSE to participate in?Dubyamn said:stienman said:Yes and it was a ridiculous violation of people's rights and it will continue to be in the future.
#93
D
Dubyamn
D
Dubyamn
So if you choose to participate in something you automatically sacrifice all rights? And the rules can be followed with a private doctor's visit preforming a genetic test and publishing it for the whole world to see is just far to invasive for no real benefit.Dorko said:So wait, it is an invasion of people's rights to check to be sure they are actually following the rules of an event they CHOSE to participate in?
#94
SeraRelm
SeraRelm
What it boils down to is this. What were you born with and do you still have those parts?
Case closed. She may have a "genetic advantage" or she may not, but that could be said for any high performance athlete. Are football players tested because they're big? Are jockeys tested because they're short? I don't care what chromosomes she has. If she was born a woman, lived her life as a woman and competed as a woman, then fuck you, she's a woman and she mopped the floor with those others.
-- Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:21 am --
On the other hand...
Case closed. She may have a "genetic advantage" or she may not, but that could be said for any high performance athlete. Are football players tested because they're big? Are jockeys tested because they're short? I don't care what chromosomes she has. If she was born a woman, lived her life as a woman and competed as a woman, then fuck you, she's a woman and she mopped the floor with those others.
-- Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:21 am --
On the other hand...
#95
figmentPez
figmentPez
So, which future are we headed for? One where every athlete is genetically tested, and then put into classes based on their genetic potential? Possibly have their performance modified by a difficulty number based on what their genes say they're capable of? Got a genetic condition that makes you gain weight and have less muscle strength? You get your time x 0.85! Got a genetically high red blood cell count and muscle fiber growth suited to marathons? You get your time in the marath x 1.32! (but only x1.24 in the 100m dash.)
Or maybe well head towards Achillies' Choice where all the top athletes are drugged up and cybernetically altered to the point where where their life expectancy is cut drasctically short, but men and women compete against each other? (and they get to rule the world when they win, too)
Both of those options sound pretty freaky, hopefully there are others that offer better choices than simply classing athletes by sex or gender.
Or maybe well head towards Achillies' Choice where all the top athletes are drugged up and cybernetically altered to the point where where their life expectancy is cut drasctically short, but men and women compete against each other? (and they get to rule the world when they win, too)
Both of those options sound pretty freaky, hopefully there are others that offer better choices than simply classing athletes by sex or gender.
#96
Espy
Espy
Just one of the many problems, of hosting an olympic event in space.Rob King said:Is it bad that I've already thought about this long and hard?klew said:By then, we'll be having the Olympics in space (apologies to non-US people), which will be so cool no one will care about gender.
My conclusion is that athletes from different planets probably won't be able to compete against each-other properly. A Martian would be at a disadvantage on earth, because of the greater gravity, and if atmospheres are even slightly different, it could throw everything out of whack.
#97
@Li3n
But what if she's really a Skrull?!
@Li3n
SeraRelm said:What it boils down to is this. What were you born with and do you still have those parts?
Case closed. She may have a "genetic advantage" or she may not, but that could be said for any high performance athlete. Are football players tested because they're big? Are jockeys tested because they're short? I don't care what chromosomes she has. If she was born a woman, lived her life as a woman and competed as a woman, then fuck you, she's a woman and she mopped the floor with those others.
But what if she's really a Skrull?!
#98
Shegokigo
Shegokigo
Oh this is just getting hilarious.....
#99
@Li3n
@Li3n
MAn, i should have known that mentioning them will draw them here... death to the skrulls.
#100
Denbrought
Denbrought
Ahahaha. Man, Zen is gonna love this bot :3