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MRA's will never satisfy their lust for identifying mysandry

#1

Necronic

Necronic

MRA stuff seems to be all the rage now in geekdom, and it's an interesting and controversial enough topic that I think it's worth throwing the beehive grenade that it is on the ground here and seeing what happens.

I'm not going to state my position on it just yet, because I am lazy. Curious to hear other peoples views/thoughts.


#2

DarkAudit

DarkAudit

In before Charlie...


#3

Bowielee

Bowielee

[charlie]

MRAs are ridiculous by definition. Men already have all the rights and dictate what rights others have.

[/charlie]

Ok, so I'm only half joking...

Change is hard, and change that takes power from a group that has held it (in any dimension, be it politics, religion, hell, even the playground) for extended periods of time will naturally result in a violent reaction against it.

As I've said before, eventually gaming will become spread more widely to minority populations and change will happen because video game producers want money and alienating the people buying their games isn't the best strategy. EA being the obvious exception... they do what they want.


#4

Dave

Dave

Again, both sides (MRA/Feminists) have fringe dipshits who are shaping the conversation. The vast majority of people are in the middle having no issues at all.


#5

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

Don't legitimize MRA like that. They are entirely "fringe dipshits".


#6

Dave

Dave

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Don't legitimize MRA like that. They are entirely "fringe dipshits".
Click to expand...
Of course you'd think that. You are on the other end of the spectrum cavorting among the dipshits on the other side.


#7

drawn_inward

drawn_inward

What's an MRA? Is it like the NRA? Meta Rifle Assoc? Meals Ready to Ate?


#8

Necronic

Necronic

Bowielee said:
Ok, so I'm only half joking...

Change is hard, and change that takes power from a group that has held it (in any dimension, be it politics, religion, hell, even the playground) for extended periods of time will naturally result in a violent reaction against it.
Click to expand...
This is very similar to my views on it. Men are absolutely losing power, that is hard to deny. The problem is that this is not creating an imbalance, which would justify a Men's Rights movement to curtail it, instead the loss of power is about removing an imbalance. It can be hard to appreciate that, however, when you are that had priveleges that you are now losing.

There is another side to the MRA movement that I believe has more credence, and that has to do with demolishing traditional male stereotypes. The older view of "all girls like pink princesses and unicorns and are delicate flowers" has been properly demolished in the last few decades by feminism, however the male counterpart of that view, "all boys like sports and don't cry and are aggressive/assertive" is still pretty common, and I think there's problems with that.

However, this is also where MRA stuff loses the thread for me, because they espouse the value of demolishing gender identity alongside commentaries about the effemitization of the male identity by modern society. I don't see how both arguments can exist.

I have to admit that I have real problems with stereotypes myself. I am definitely one to say "man up". But it's a bit more nuanced. I have a VERY hard time with people who make excuses for their failures, and sometimes I see that in the MRA conversations. Like all the bad things that ever happened to them were caused by the loss of power men are experiencing. I don't accept this and find it to be indicative of a deeply flawed individual.


#9

figmentPez

figmentPez

Necronic said:
There is another side to the MRA movement that I believe has more credence, and that has to do with demolishing traditional male stereotypes. The older view of "all girls like pink princesses and unicorns and are delicate flowers" has been properly demolished in the last few decades by feminism, however the male counterpart of that view, "all boys like sports and don't cry and are aggressive/assertive" is still pretty common, and I think there's problems with that.
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This. While it's true that men don't need many "rights" they don't already have (and those they lack are also needed by other groups as well), men are still in need of advocates. The issues that men face, and men do have struggles, are different than those that women face. This doesn't necessarily mean that men need their own movement, but we can't just assume that all men are fine because some men are privileged.

For instance: men need advocates to promote expanding legal definitions of rape, so that all rape victims can be recognized and aided. Ideally this would come out of the feminism movement, (though, in an ideal world feminism wouldn't even be necessary, because everyone would already be equal). In reality, feminism is divided because people don't work well together, and shit like this comes from "feminism" as well: Feminist group in Israel wants to repeal laws allowing women to be charged with raping men.


#10

GasBandit

GasBandit

I chart pretty close to FigmentPez on this issue. Most people who identify themselves explicitly as MRAs are, as a rule, fairly ridiculous, but that doesn't mean that there aren't injustices perpetrated against men simply motivated by them being men.

As for feminism, as others have said, there's feminism and then there's feminism. I'm all for equality. Retribution/reverse discrimination, not so much.


#11

GasBandit

GasBandit

Oh and as long as we're tossing grenades...



#12

PatrThom

PatrThom

The way I see it, the major cause of "man problems" is perpetrated [edit: and perpetuated] by men on other men, mostly by men who think men should be (able to) behave in a particular manner and who get upset that (other) men don't behave this way.
Also, as an aside, I have a problem with the term "feminist" since it by definition intimates a preference for one gender over another (rather than an elevation towards equality).
Also, there's that quote attributed to Henry Kissinger - "Nobody will ever win the battle of the sexes. There’s too much fraternizing with the enemy"
I would like to state that nobody actually needs to "win" that battle. A truce should be sufficient for all needs.

--Patrick


#13

Tiger Tsang

Tiger Tsang

(Computer is dead, doing this from the kindle) but other than divorce courts and custody of kids what is their big `help, help, I'm being oppressed` angle


#14

Tinwhistler

Tinwhistler

Divorce and custody are the biggest MRA issues that I can agree with.

Then again, I got custody in my second divorce. In Texas. So there are some strides being made there.


#15

Dave

Dave

I would say that and the asinine idea that all men are rapists and pedophiles. Like men being told they can't be elementary school teachers or questioned while in a public park by themselves or even with their own kids. Or when you are sitting in a plane and an unaccompanied child has a seat next to you they make you change like you are some sort of a pervert.


#16

Cajungal

Cajungal

I do feel bad that men are treated like they can't be trusted with children. Even fathers. My mom is guilty of this. My dad isn't overprotective and let's his grand kids play without him hovering over them. My mom doesn't like leaving him alone with them even though he takes good care of them. That's less of a men-are- pedophiles observation and more based on the idea that men can't be nurturing or know what children need.


#17

Bowielee

Bowielee

Story time!

Once upon a time, I was a summer camp councilor. I was a GOOD summer camp councilor. I was usually given cabins with troubled kids because I was patient with them and because of my somewhat troubled past was able to relate to them on a level that the middle class councilors probably never could.

Then, one summer, I came out of the closet and the camp director tried to have me fired because he was afraid I would molest the kids.

I haven't felt comfortable around children ever since. Not even my nieces and nephews or friend's children.


#18

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

Bowielee said:
Story time!

Once upon a time, I was a summer camp councilor. I was a GOOD summer camp councilor. I was usually given cabins with troubled kids because I was patient with them and because of my somewhat troubled past was able to relate to them on a level that the middle class councilors probably never could.

Then, one summer, I came out of the closet and the camp director tried to have me fired because he was afraid I would molest the kids.

I haven't felt comfortable around children ever since. Not even my nieces and nephews or friend's children.
Click to expand...
That really sucks, and happens far too often.


#19

Cajungal

Cajungal

See...that really sucks. I saw the same kind of discomfort from parents and some teachers when we had a gay music teacher.


#20

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

Feminists/SJWs are totally completely for tearing down gender roles on both sides. I got shit for liking Dawson's Creek when I was a teenager. That stuff about men and kids is bullshit. Women also don't like being assumed to be caretakers/loving kids all the time, either.


#21

figmentPez

figmentPez

Feminists/SJWs are totally completely for tearing down gender roles on both sides.
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A generalization that does not hold true for all individuals. There are "feminists" who are happy to promote gender roles if it furthers their personal agenda. There are even groups that actively promote negative stereotypes about men because they think it will help the cause of women. This is a problem that can be found within any movment; a minority, sometimes quite vocally, can act like assholes and go against some sub-set of the movement's beliefs.

Moreover, being for the general concept of "tearing down gender roles" doesn't mean shit unless you're focusing on specific issues that need change. Its a repeated feminist statement that it's not enough to simply be for equality between the genders, because our perception of "equal" is so skewed by a male-centered society. For instance, we're so used to seeing crowd scenes in movies with a majority of men in them, that even in real life a 50/50 split tends to make people think there are more women present in a group. It's a problem of ingrained bias. Unless we specifically examine issues and point out why our preconceptions have led to flawed reasoning, then it will be difficult to get people to even see the problem at all.

Charlie Don't Surf said:
That stuff about men and kids is bullshit.
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Charlie, just shut up before you make a bigger fool of yourself. It took a lawsuit against British Airways to get them to change their policy of treating single men as presumed pedophiles. There are still people in advocacy groups who want to justify treating all men as potential molestors because they "know the overwhelming majority of sex offenders are male, so by removing that situation you're lowering the risk." Source

Women also don't like being assumed to be caretakers/loving kids all the time, either.
Click to expand...
That does not in any way stop negative stereotypes from harming men. Nor does it necessarily follow that changing that stereotype about women will lead to a change in the stereotype about men as well.

Also, I have to laugh. This is like saying "That stuff about women being presumed to be physically weak is bullshit. Men also don't like being assumed to be strong all the time, either." Just stop and think for a moment. You know you would be in a frothing rage at anyone who used that type of reasoning.


#22

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

The stuff with men and kids is completely true. When I was doing my teaching practicum in a grade 1/kindergarten combination class, the teacher would allow kids to sit in her lap, hug them, or hold them. Meanwhile, it was generally frowned upon or suggested I don't do the same. Honestly, given my own fears of being falsely accused of anything, I kept my distance. I asked her once why this was and she said very frankly that it was a gender thing. She's not the first person I've heard from about this, either.


#23

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

Wait, no, the stuff = when people assume men are not good with children. Those assumptions / stereotypes are bullshit. We're on the same side.


#24

bhamv3

bhamv3

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Wait, no, the stuff = when people assume men are not good with children. Those assumptions / stereotypes are bullshit. We're on the same side.
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"Assume men are not good with children" appears to be a rather odd way of phrasing what the other guys are describing.


#25

Bowielee

Bowielee

Wow, guys, calm down. Charlie actually made a good post and you're dumping on him.

You should reward positive behavior, not punish it.


#26

bhamv3

bhamv3

Bowielee said:
Wow, guys, calm down. Charlie actually made a good post and you're dumping on him.

You should reward positive behavior, not punish it.
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Not my intention to dump on Charlie at all, I recognize he's raising good points in here. It's just that I found it very incongruous to be referring to the assumption that all men are potential pedophiles as "assume men are not good with children."

Or did I misread Charlie's post? If so, I apologize unreservedly.


#27

blotsfan

blotsfan

He means that the stereotypes about nurturing are bullshit in the sense that they're not true. Not that its bullshit to think that they exist.


#28

Bowielee

Bowielee

blotsfan said:
He means that the stereotypes about nurturing are bullshit in the sense that they're not true. Not that its bullshit to think that they exist.
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This is how I read it.


#29

bhamv3

bhamv3

My mistake, I misread.

I apologize, Charlie.


#30

GasBandit

GasBandit

I don't know what it is, these days parents don't even let their kids play in the front yard unless they have guard towers at the corners with snipers. My best friend's wife (the one who won't let him play video games any more incidentally) is terrified their 5 year old is going to get kidnapped by a pedophile if she's out of her sight for 15 seconds, 5 if the little girl happens to be outside. You know where I went to play when I was 5? The woods. Down the street. All day. By myself (or with other similarly aged friends, no adults in any case). Assuming I wasn't straight up playing in the street.


#31

Mathias

Mathias

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I got shit for liking Dawson's Creek when I was a teenager.
Click to expand...

Now tell me about your mother...

[DOUBLEPOST=1414850528,1414850292][/DOUBLEPOST]I feel it appropriate to link up http://www.artofmanliness.com/

I love this site and it exemplifies the extent of my MRA ism...


Articles on how to build tables and workouts!


#32

figmentPez

figmentPez

blotsfan said:
He means that the stereotypes about nurturing are bullshit in the sense that they're not true. Not that its bullshit to think that they exist.
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And how were we supposed to know that before he clarified?


#33

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

Bowielee said:
This is how I read it.
Click to expand...
Same here.

And correct advocacy of feminism is also about tearing down those gender roles for everybody. To do otherwise would say that a woman who assumes a stereotypically male attitude, career, etc, is just acting like a man. That's assuming the worst, of course; correct feminism advocates equality for everyone. Women in pants, women in dresses, men in pants, men in dresses--and all of them having useful pocket depths, because I didn't know that about women's pants until recently and those shallow pockets are fucking stupid.

GasBandit said:
I don't know what it is, these days parents don't even let their kids play in the front yard unless they have guard towers at the corners with snipers. My best friend's wife (the one who won't let him play video games any more incidentally) is terrified their 5 year old is going to get kidnapped by a pedophile if she's out of her sight for 15 seconds, 5 if the little girl happens to be outside. You know where I went to play when I was 5? The woods. Down the street. All day. By myself (or with other similarly aged friends, no adults in any case). Assuming I wasn't straight up playing in the street.
Click to expand...
I blame the 24-hour news media for this. I remember being 4 and playing in my front yard in the snow at dusk. My mom couldn't watch be 100%, she had my little sister and little brother to take care of too, so I was on my own and it was okay. I'm sure she glanced out the window now and then. Dad came home from his first job, I followed him in.

I dislike romanticism of previous decades, but the 80s really did seem like a simpler time. Then again, I was still 4 when it ended, so everything was simpler. Even dinosaurs.[DOUBLEPOST=1414851893,1414851738][/DOUBLEPOST]
figmentPez said:
And how were we supposed to know that before he clarified?
Click to expand...
I understood before he clarified.

'Cause I'm cool. :cool:


#34

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

figmentPez said:
And how were we supposed to know that before he clarified?
Click to expand...
Reading comprehension. :cool:


#35

Bowielee

Bowielee

Have a disagree, assface :p[DOUBLEPOST=1414852553,1414852333][/DOUBLEPOST]It's been fun watching Fig's transformation from a white knight to a borderline misogynist.

(preemptively unwad your panties, I'm kidding)


#36

figmentPez

figmentPez

bhamv3 said:
"Assume men are not good with children" appears to be a rather odd way of phrasing what the other guys are describing.
Click to expand...
Damn straight. Even if Charlie wasn't calling "bullshit" on what I assumed he was, he's still belittling the entire point. He's taking an issue where men are presumed to be a active threat to children, and changing it to "not good with". He's framing the issue to make it seem like it's a minor annoyance. Then he compared a negative stereotype that portrays men as a danger, to an unwanted stereotype that generally has positive connotations (even if that stereotype causes problems). If the reverse had happened, and a female issue were being downplayed like this, you know damn well that whoever posted that would be called out for marginalizing the issue.


#37

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

figmentPez said:
Click to expand...


#38

figmentPez

figmentPez

Ravenpoe said:
Reading comprehension. :cool:
Click to expand...
Really? Read my previous post for why Charlie's words undermine what he claims to be saying.

"Feminists/SJWs are totally completely for tearing down gender roles on both sides."

Already disproven by posts in this thread. Charlie wants to act like feminism has zero problems, when there are people who claim "feminism" but still want to advance women at the expense of men.

"I got shit for liking Dawson's Creek when I was a teenager."

This is not on par with men being treated as probable pedophiles whenever they're around children. By bringing this up without any further context, it trivializes the issue and reinforces the understanding that this line:

"That stuff about men and kids is bullshit."

...means that Charlie thinks we're making a bigger deal out of this than it really is. Which is his usual response to anyone saying that men have social problems that need to be addressed. It's not unreasonable, given Charlie's posting history, to assume that he's making a statement about how small men's problems are, and that they don't need any special redress beyond focusing on women's issues. Which brings us to...

"Women also don't like being assumed to be caretakers/loving kids all the time, either"

By golly, there's Charlie bringing in women's issues again. This point isn't relevant to the discussion, but Charlie brought it up anyway. It all flows together. Marginalize the issue men face, claim it's already being addressed, and that it's really part of an issue women are facing to begin with. Edit: It's called derailing, which is a one of the terms most commonly used by the current wave of feminism. Take the focus off of the issue that's causing a problem, and redirect it towards your own agenda.


#39

GasBandit

GasBandit

I also initially interpreted Charlie's "men/children bullshit" assertion as a statement of disbelief/dismissal, because it was in keeping with his usual narrative.


#40

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight


Huh, I wonder who gave that rating ...



Well golly, what a turn of the screw.

Wonder if I'll get a present too.


#41

figmentPez

figmentPez

Zero Esc said:

Huh, I wonder who gave that rating ...



Well golly, what a turn of the screw.

Wonder if I'll get a present too.
Click to expand...
See, now this is passive aggressive. The "needs a lock" rating is for when a post/thread has content that needs moderator review, and personal attacks fall under that category. By publicly shaming anyone who speaks out, you undermine the purpose of the rating, and make it difficult for anyone to object to harassment, or other disruptive behavior. That's what passive-agressive behavior is, making it difficult for anyone to proceed with business as usual. Giving someone a negative rating in no way prevents them from continuing to post. Making open statements with screenshots and dragging the thread off-topic, that makes it very difficult to have any sort of meaningful conversation.


#42

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

figmentPez said:
See, now this is passive aggressive. The "needs a lock" rating is for when a post/thread has content that needs moderator review, and personal attacks fall under that category. By publicly shaming anyone who speaks out, you undermine the purpose of the rating, and make it difficult for anyone to object to harassment, or other disruptive behavior. That's what passive-agressive behavior is, making it difficult for anyone to proceed with business as usual. Giving someone a negative rating in no way prevents them from continuing to post. Making open statements with screenshots and dragging the thread off-topic, that makes it very difficult to have any sort of meaningful conversation.
Click to expand...
Throwing a needs a lock onto a joke is passive aggressive. Yes, the rating is for when a post/thread has content that needs moderator review, but do you legitimately believe that Bowie thinks you're a misogynist? As in seriously, you honestly think that and took that as a personal attack? Because otherwise you're just wasting a mod's time in assessing his post because you felt slighted at his saying it at all.

My post doesn't prevent you from continuing to post either. You get silly with your ratings sometimes, it's been brought to your attention in the past. If you can take a moment to click that button and it doesn't ruin your train of thought, I don't see how my posts throw you off either.


#43

figmentPez

figmentPez

Zero Esc said:
Yes, the rating is for when a post/thread has content that needs moderator review, but do you legitimately believe that Bowie thinks you're a misogynist?
Click to expand...
I gave it that rating for "Have a disagree, assface".

Zero Esc said:
I don't see how my posts throw you off either.
Click to expand...
They throw off the entire discussion because you're encouraging people to fucking whine about ratings, and to use the logical fallacy of ad hominem attacks instead of actual arguments.


#44

Bowielee

Bowielee

So, apparently posting a picture from Don Quihote is worth a mod review.

The fact that Pez is attacking someone who's trying to agree with him is the very definition of jousting at windmills.


#45

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

figmentPez said:
I gave it that rating for "Have a disagree, assface".
Click to expand...
You mean this, after quoting Ravenpoe?

Bowielee said:
Have a disagree, assface :p
Click to expand...
Ravenpoe made a joke at you, Bowielee was silly at him. This was obvious, and made more obvious by the emoticons. Or do you legitimately believe Bowielee believes that Ravenpoe has an ass for a face? Still a waste of a mod's time.

They throw off the entire discussion because you're encouraging people to fucking whine about ratings, and to use the logical fallacy of ad hominem attacks instead of actual arguments.
Click to expand...
I was about to say "then why not rate Ravenpoe's reading comprehension post or Don Quixote post?", but I see since I last look you've done half the work. And what about my posts? And what about your own posts responding to mine?


#46

blotsfan

blotsfan

GasBandit said:
I also initially interpreted Charlie's "men/children bullshit" assertion as a statement of disbelief/dismissal, because it was in keeping with his usual narrative.
Click to expand...
Charlie has actually been pretty consistent about the "patriarchy" hurting men as well as women.


#47

Chad Sexington

Chad Sexington

Every once in a while I wonder that Charlie couldn't post "Acceleration due to gravity is 9.81 m/s," without people disagreeing with him.


#48

GasBandit

GasBandit

Chad Sexington said:
Every once in a while I wonder that Charlie couldn't post "Acceleration due to gravity is 9.81 m/s," without people disagreeing with him.
Click to expand...
I'd certainly double check the veracity at an independent source.


#49

figmentPez

figmentPez

GasBandit said:
I'd certainly double check the veracity at an independent source.
Click to expand...
And give close examination as to why he cited that figure, and what conclusions he was drawing from it.


#50

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

Chad Sexington said:
Every once in a while I wonder that Charlie couldn't post "Acceleration due to gravity is 9.81 m/s," without people disagreeing with him.
Click to expand...
People agree with him in media posts sometimes, so long as they're not Marvel-related. Or Spider-man related. Or music.

... never mind.


#51

Mathias

Mathias

I.... I like my gender role as the bread winner for my family, and my wife likes to take care of our children. Am... Am I going to hell?[DOUBLEPOST=1414872380,1414872265][/DOUBLEPOST]
Chad Sexington said:
Every once in a while I wonder that Charlie couldn't post "Acceleration due to gravity is 9.81 m/s," without people disagreeing with him.
Click to expand...

But he wouldn't post that without mentioning that gravity is a construct of the patriarchy that's kept women out of science for 200 years.[DOUBLEPOST=1414872448][/DOUBLEPOST]I found Chuck a girlfriend:


#52

PatrThom

PatrThom

I'm the main breadwinner in my family, and I'm male, and I don't feel guilty about it at all. If anything, Kati feels guilty that she doesn't contribute to the bottom line of the family. "Are you kidding?" I respond. "If you went and joined the 'workforce,' do you know how much we would have to pay someone to do everything you do as competently as you do it? We couldn't afford that even with two incomes!"

--Patrick


#53

Mathias

Mathias



Such class[DOUBLEPOST=1414873154,1414872611][/DOUBLEPOST]
PatrThom said:
I'm the main breadwinner in my family, and I'm male, and I don't feel guilty about it at all. If anything, Kati feels guilty that she doesn't contribute to the bottom line of the family. "Are you kidding?" I respond. "If you went and joined the 'workforce,' do you know how much we would have to pay someone to do everything you do as competently as you do it? We couldn't afford that even with two incomes!"

--Patrick
Click to expand...
We're lucky that my in-laws live 20 minutes away, so my wife does work part-time (mostly for extra things). Call me sexist or whatever, I don't look down on other men who's wives earn more or anything, but as a personal viewpoint, I would feel less of a man (myself) if I didn't provide for my family. I'm like that with a lot of hot button subjects. Abortion for instance. I'm very my pro-life personally, but as far as other people go, I'm pro-choice for society. Overall, I think a liberal stance on personal issues allows for a better fit across different lifestyle choices. So, yeah, I agree with both feminists and men's rights folks in terms of keeping individual choices open, and essentially allowing anyone to be what they want to be. Where I get stuck is feminists calling me a sexist pig because I personally feel a real man should step up and be a man - like provide for and protect his family.


#54

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

Mathias said:
I.... I like my gender role as the bread winner for my family, and my wife likes to take care of our children. Am... Am I going to hell?
Click to expand...
Let's be honest here, you're probably going to hell. But not for that.

True feminists (ie those who wish to see gender equality for everyone) would say that's perfectly fine. There's nothing at all wrong with that. What's wrong would be if those gender roles were forced upon all people regardless of what they wanted.

The problem, of course, is that feminist is a term that has been co-opted by many different fringe groups, some more militant and extreme than others.


#55

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

Mathias said:
Now tell me about your mother...
!
Click to expand...
...and also apparently 10 years after that. how far we've come!


#56

LittleSin

LittleSin

Can I just mention that, while it is true that in divorce women are more likely to get custody, studies show that it's because the mother is more likely to ask for it. In cases where the father asks for custody and is persistent in wanting it custody will be awarded to him over the mother about 70% of the time. What does happen is that the family will deem the mother a more natural care taker so the father will not push for custody.

There is a gender bias happening but not in the way that has been stated.


#57

blotsfan

blotsfan

I would bet that a lot of those custody fights only come because the mom is incredibly unfit or else the dad wouldn't fight for custody.


#58

Necronic

Necronic

Ugh. MRA reaction to he #LikeAGirl campaign is both predictable and embarrassing.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/super-bowl-likeaboy-trends-as-769015

MRA's are an embarrassment. Period.


#59

Bowielee

Bowielee

Mathias said:


Such class[DOUBLEPOST=1414873154,1414872611][/DOUBLEPOST]

We're lucky that my in-laws live 20 minutes away, so my wife does work part-time (mostly for extra things). Call me sexist or whatever, I don't look down on other men who's wives earn more or anything, but as a personal viewpoint, I would feel less of a man (myself) if I didn't provide for my family. I'm like that with a lot of hot button subjects. Abortion for instance. I'm very my pro-life personally, but as far as other people go, I'm pro-choice for society. Overall, I think a liberal stance on personal issues allows for a better fit across different lifestyle choices. So, yeah, I agree with both feminists and men's rights folks in terms of keeping individual choices open, and essentially allowing anyone to be what they want to be. Where I get stuck is feminists calling me a sexist pig because I personally feel a real man should step up and be a man - like provide for and protect his family.
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This would only become sexist if you told your wife that there is no way that you could accept her working, even if its what she wants to do. One would also think that if you loved your partner that you would want them to do what makes them happy, whether it's being a homemaker or getting a job. Your personal urge to provide for your family doesn't contradict what she wants to do in any way.


#60

tegid

tegid

Oh wow:
"hopefully one day us as men can have equality and treated the same"
:facepalm:
I think I saw the ad a while ago. It is fantastic, and those criticisms are moronic.

I don't like many of the responses either, though.


#61

Bowielee

Bowielee

tegid said:
Oh wow:
"hopefully one day us as men can have equality and treated the same"
:facepalm:
I think I saw the ad a while ago. It is fantastic, and those criticisms are moronic.

I don't like many of the responses either, though.
Click to expand...
I'd love for all the majority group activists to get their wish when they ask that everyone be treated equally in that they get to spend at least one day experiencing life as part of a minority. They'd change their tune awfully fast.


#62

Necronic

Necronic

Seriously. If you haven't been able to achieve success as a middle class straight white man, you really think your odds would be better as a poor black gay woman? That's honestly the takeaway I get from some of these people, that women, blacks, poor, etc have it so much easier. It's just...insanely stupid.

Although that level of stupidity would go a long way to explaining how they failed to achieve as a priveleged majority.


#63

Celt Z

Celt Z

Necronic said:
Ugh. MRA reaction to he #LikeAGirl campaign is both predictable and embarrassing.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/super-bowl-likeaboy-trends-as-769015

MRA's are an embarrassment. Period.
Click to expand...
I'm confused why there are men up-in-arms about not being represented in a commercial for tampons and sanitary napkins. Isn't, like 99% of the Super Bowl and it's accompanying advertising aimed at men and male accomplishments? Do they really want to have periods too? That's an interesting choice for equality.


#64

Necronic

Necronic

I do occasionally bleed down there but I don't think it's the same....


#65

HCGLNS

HCGLNS

Chad Sexington said:
Every once in a while I wonder that Charlie couldn't post "Acceleration due to gravity is 9.81 m/s," without people disagreeing with him.
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I would ridicule @Charlie Don't Surf for days on end for posting that.


#66

Necronic

Necronic

Seeing as it's in the wrong units I would too


#67

PatrThom

PatrThom

Necronic said:
Seeing as it's in the wrong units I would too
Click to expand...
It is? I mean sure, it's supposed to be 9.78m/s/s instead of 9.81m/s/s, but meters are still meters, right?

EDIT: Ah, you probably mean because it wasn't expressed as m/s/s.

--Patrick


#68

HCGLNS

HCGLNS

Now you're on the trolley!


#69

fade

fade

The like a girl commercial was the best ad in the superbowl.


#70

jwhouk

jwhouk

I dunno, I think "Eat A Snickers Marcia" was best.

Y'all know what I thought was the worst.


#71

Frank

Frank

FUN article about the foremost MRA in the world and how he's kind of a huge scumbag hypocrite. I know, I see all your shocked faces.

www.buzzfeed.com/adamserwer/how-mens-rights-leader-paul-elam-turned-being-a-deadbeat-dad#.fqwvNPBj2


#72

Necronic

Necronic

Wow...that article is just...wow.


#73

drifter

drifter

C.O.C.K. That one dude seriously named his men's rights splinter group C.O.C.K. And they work in opposition to "The Women’s Activism Tyranny." Says it all, really.


#74

GasBandit

GasBandit

drifter said:
C.O.C.K. That one dude seriously named his men's rights splinter group C.O.C.K. And they work in opposition to "The Women’s Activism Tyranny." Says it all, really.
Click to expand...
Makes me think he just saw Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back.


#75

fade

fade

Makes me think he's 8 years old.


#76

Bowielee

Bowielee

drifter said:
C.O.C.K. That one dude seriously named his men's rights splinter group C.O.C.K. And they work in opposition to "The Women’s Activism Tyranny." Says it all, really.
Click to expand...
DOOM.jpg


#77

Gruebeard

Gruebeard

drifter said:
C.O.C.K. That one dude seriously named his men's rights splinter group C.O.C.K. And they work in opposition to "The Women’s Activism Tyranny." Says it all, really.
Click to expand...
I can't believe they didn't name it NO MA'AM


#78

Bubble181

Bubble181

And just because it's no fun to only condemn one side of an issue for being a bunch of moronic gits who really, really shouldn't be allowed to procreate/go alone into society: http://injusticestories.com/i-aborted-my-baby-because-it-was-a-boy/

Can we all agree she's a horrible person?


#79

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

Bubble181 said:
And just because it's no fun to only condemn one side of an issue for being a bunch of moronic gits who really, really shouldn't be allowed to procreate/go alone into society: http://injusticestories.com/i-aborted-my-baby-because-it-was-a-boy/

Can we all agree she's a horrible person?
Click to expand...
Is there any way to read the rest of that story without having to 'like' it? Because I'm almost as upset about that mechanic as the story in general.


#80

Bubble181

Bubble181

I do agree that's a horrible mechanic. I read the whole story through another news site, but it's in Dutch. Just, err, use one of the social media you don't actually use? :p


#81

GasBandit

GasBandit

I knew this was going to be trouble when she used the phrase "My journey has taken me..." as a stand in for "In the past I have..." Few things make me roll my eyes as much as people describing the course of their life as "their journey."

If only I knew how quickly it'd turn even further south.

I got to the part about her literally screaming "ASSAULT" on an overcrowded plane because she sat next to an asshole (who didn't lay a finger on her). This woman is the living embodiment of the caricature 4chan /b/tards create to ridicule feminists.


#82

drifter

drifter

I'm actually wondering about the veracity of the story. Just seems like it's designed to produce drama.


#83

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

yeah who fucking cares, it's really fun to make fun of MRA's because they are huge babies that do stuff like claim both sides have valid points


#84

Terrik

Terrik

Bubble181 said:
And just because it's no fun to only condemn one side of an issue for being a bunch of moronic gits who really, really shouldn't be allowed to procreate/go alone into society: http://injusticestories.com/i-aborted-my-baby-because-it-was-a-boy/

Can we all agree she's a horrible person?
Click to expand...
It's like Bizzaro China


#85

Bubble181

Bubble181

Charlie Don't Surf said:
yeah who fucking cares, it's really fun to make fun of MRA's because they are huge babies that do stuff like claim both sides have valid points
Click to expand...
I think most of the making fun of/laughing with, here, happens towards those who claim the other side doesn't have valid points, i.e. the extremists, such as the woman above, or MRA's who think men are being horribly oppressed by the matriarchy.

That men can be victims as well, that we should be open to the fact that The patriarchy and Having Spades of Privilege etc doesn't mean you can't also fall victim to things (including unrealistic expectations) because of it, is a very valid, very important point - and it also makes actual MRA's allies of feminists - because we should be striving towards equal opportunities and possibilities for everyone, and acceptance of everyone, no matter what set of chromosomes (ok, those with less or more than 2 may need a bit of assistance here or there) you're born with.
You've been one to call out "MRA's" in the past as masculine antifeminist scumbags and victim blamers and whatnot. Npow making a U-turn and saying we shouldn't make fun of the extremists is...Well,a bit hypocritical. It's OK to laugh with the extremes no matter what side they -and you - are on. It's the whole Charlie Hebdo thing, hmmm?


#86

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

Bubble181 said:
I think most of the making fun of/laughing with, here, happens towards those who claim the other side doesn't have valid points, i.e. the extremists, such as the woman above, or MRA's who think men are being horribly oppressed by the matriarchy.

That men can be victims as well, that we should be open to the fact that The patriarchy and Having Spades of Privilege etc doesn't mean you can't also fall victim to things (including unrealistic expectations) because of it, is a very valid, very important point - and it also makes actual MRA's allies of feminists - because we should be striving towards equal opportunities and possibilities for everyone, and acceptance of everyone, no matter what set of chromosomes (ok, those with less or more than 2 may need a bit of assistance here or there) you're born with.
You've been one to call out "MRA's" in the past as masculine antifeminist scumbags and victim blamers and whatnot. Npow making a U-turn and saying we shouldn't make fun of the extremists is...Well,a bit hypocritical. It's OK to laugh with the extremes no matter what side they -and you - are on. It's the whole Charlie Hebdo thing, hmmm?
Click to expand...

There are no sides, at least not divided among gender lines. There are people for gender equality, and those not. That's what makes MRA's so weird, because feminism already seeks what MRA's claim to seek: equality. But instead, MRA's are typically made up of creepy weirdos who project their problems onto women, the same way 'extremist' feminists (who, by definition of what feminism actually is, aren't feminists) do the same by projecting onto men.

Feminism itself is a bit of a misnomer, because true feminism is to seek equality for everyone, which benefits all.


#87

Necronic

Necronic

So what your saying is that MRA's are the Andrea Dworkin's of men's activism.


#88

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

Feminism would be a misnomer if the patriarchy didn't exist and set all the rules.


#89

DarkAudit

DarkAudit

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Feminism would be a misnomer if the patriarchy didn't exist and set all the rules.
Click to expand...
You're still a member of the oppressor class, and nothing you do or say will ever change that.


#90

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

That's why I try to use my privilege to speak out where there are not similar voices given weight


#91

Necronic

Necronic

So if a woman/minority were to disagree with you (on this or something else) would you check your privilege and stfu?


#92

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

Necronic said:
So if a woman/minority were to disagree with you (on this or something else) would you check your privilege and stfu?
Click to expand...
I wouldn't go into a group of women discussing gender or middle eastern folks discussing religion/race or LBQT people discussing their sexuality and pretending like my views and experiences carry the same weight.

A woman that thinks rape culture is a bunch of hooey doesn't magically make it disappear. A black guy saying that the police are great and he's never been shot by a cop or harassed doesn't mean race relations are great.


#93

Necronic

Necronic

Do your views carry more moral authority than your equally priveleged peers? I'm not baiting here, I'm honestly curious, and it's a difficult issue.

Do the oppressed actually need priveleged allies, and what is the best way, in good faith, to represent the oppressed and issues of privelege as a priveleged person.

Edit: I've been rewatching season 4 of The Wire.


#94

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

Necronic said:
Do your views carry more moral authority than your equally priveleged peers? I'm not baiting here, I'm honestly curious, and it's a difficult issue.

Do the oppressed actually need priveleged allies, and what is the best way, in good faith, to represent the oppressed and issues of privelege as a priveleged person.

Edit: I've been rewatching season 4 of The Wire.
Click to expand...
That's a hugely complicated question that has books about it. I didn't mean that to be dismissive, just, I dunno how we'd scratch the surface here.

I don't think they carry more moral authority, but they carry more authority with those empowered by the patriarchy. Like, the story of how in a business setting, a woman suggests A, and they're like ehhh, I dunno. Then a dude is like "What about A?" and they're like "holy shit you're a genius!" That's a really common joke in movies/shows and whatnot, because it's so absurd. But women talk about subtle variations of this happening on a daily basis.

I've read people saying the best thing I/we can do is help give more power / amplify voices already talking about this stuff.


#95

Bubble181

Bubble181

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I wouldn't go into a group of women discussing gender or middle eastern folks discussing religion/race or LBQT people discussing their sexuality and pretending like my views and experiences carry the same weight.
Click to expand...
But there are posts of yours on this self same forum where you call a rape victim a rape apologist, where you call a gay man homophobic, and where you claim a male victim's story is unrealistic, and where men being falsely accused of rape is named, by you, "so much in the minority" those cases shouldn't influence or determine how we look at situations in general.
And no, not all three of those are in relation to me - only two are. Doesn't change the fact you've said them. You've argued from a point of moral superiority against victims in the past, yet you're unwilling to see this, blinded by your own interpretation of certain aspects of society - thus, to a point, falling victim to the same logical flaws and prejudices you so strongly condemn in others.


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