Export thread

Last night, I learned what happens when you tell Alexa you don't feel like living anymore. The entire police and fire departments show up at your house. I know this because that's what my 13 year old daughter did. To be clear, I don't think she was actually having true suicidal thoughts, and she's never really exhibited outward signs of depression before, but it does concern me. And don't worry, I'm taking this very seriously, and she is currently in the hospital.

So, the other thing is that she has been binging 13 Reasons Why. I didn't think anything of it. I'd poked around and seen that there were some warnings, and that it was popular in her age group. But then my son pointed out that there are actual research papers linking the release of the show to a correlating spike in suicidal ideation and attempts, especially in pre-teens and young teens. I've looked into it, and can see the problems now. This show idolizes suicide. The person who commits suicide in the show is not the hero who commits suicide, she's a hero because she commits suicide. She's rewarded for it in the currencies that age group desires the most.

I thought, well if you admit this, then don't you have to admit video games might contribute to violent thoughts, too? My son actually made a good point about this. Video games are really divorced from reality, generally. This show intentionally pitches itself at its target demographic, sets itself in a realistic setting, and sells itself by giving the things the target demographic wants: celebrity, popularity, remembrance, etc. By comparison, yeah, maybe you should be concerned about a video game Columbine simulator that "fixes" an unpopular character by having them shoot up a school while a popularity meter rises. The creators of this show have found the perfect brown note that causes its target audience to think suicide is cool. I thought it was bullshit at first, but now I've seen it first hand.

So now the "Karen" moment. Yeah, I know. I have the power of the remote, and believe me, it's gone. But that being said, if something like this show is causing these issues demonstrably, it's time to do something about it. It's time to make this show harder to access. I know, the subject matter is not totally unique, but something about the presentation clearly is. I don't know what the solution is. There are very few options that don't Streisand Effect the show.

It's a sticky wicket, to be sure. It seems like the gateway to a slippery slope, but it also seems like to me there should definitely be a point at which it can be said "this is encouraging people to commit suicide." Does this fall beyond that threshold? Probably. But how do we define that threshold for future reference? Where would, say, the original M*A*S*H movie fall on that scale? Suicide is painless and brings on many changes, it says...

They are already aware of the effect it's having and don't seem to give a shit. Otherwise they'd have done something about it already. I'm not a big one for censorship, but this show's target audience is very vulnerable and malleable. Netflix needs to get rid of this one.

GasBandit said:

It's a sticky wicket, to be sure. It seems like the gateway to a slippery slope, but it also seems like to me there should definitely be a point at which it can be said "this is encouraging people to commit suicide." Does this fall beyond that threshold? Probably. But how do we define that threshold for future reference? Where would, say, the original M*A*S*H movie fall on that scale? Suicide is painless and brings on many changes, it says...

Click to expand...

As an interesting note, the lyrics of "Suicide is painless" were written by Robert Altman's (the film director's) 14 year-old son, because Altman Senior wanted to create "the stupidest song ever written" and he found it too difficult to come up with lyrics that were "stupid enough" to fit his vision (apparently, the son was able to come up with the lyrics very quickly). The music was composed by Johnny Mandel, and was not initially intended to be the movie's theme (rather just the Last Supper/Not-Really-Suicide scene) but ended up being a hit (and was subsequently used for the TV show, obviously).

Also, the scene in the movie M*A*S*H is 100% making fun of the stupidity of the suicide attempt and its motivating cause (and is engineered by friends to help cheer the person back up...which presents different issues with regards to routes to addressing depression, but also, movie from 1970...) In the book, (more similar to the movie than the movie was to the show), a similar scene happens wherein the character is more routinely depressed, and his friends also similarly intervene, though there are helicopter hijinks involved.

All that to say, I think a more interesting comparison would be to the recent-ish release of Joker, and whether that was glorifying violence in the same manner that 13 Reasons Why romanticizes suicide.

I don't know if putting the series behind an age-lock or paywall would end up heightening the aforementioned Streisand Effect (or just be easily outmaneuvered by savvy teens) but I agree that some steps should be taken by Netflix to acknowledge the potentially injurious nature of the work, particularly in vulnerable (younger) groups.

And Fade, I hope your daughter and family are all doing okay.

I found the first season to be a well done piece of fiction. The problem is, I just assumed no one would ever let anyone younger than, say, 17-18 watch it. And then Netflix just lets it fly, with no real age limitations.

And parents can’t always monitor what kids watch. The most dedicated, informed parent will still have their kid sneak by on some things. Normally that’s just part of life (I would bet every one of us saw some shit we shouldn’t have when we were younger). But the stakes are much, much higher when the subject of suicide is portrayed the way it is in 13 Reasons.

So I am sorry, @fade. And I agree that they need to rethink how something like this is distributed online.

This is a scary show. I remember the talks we had about it a while ago. I’m so sorry this happened.

You’re absolutely right that Netflix did kids a disservice here. This show shouldn’t be available on a child portfolio and I think there should be a tier that the owner of the Netflix account can opt in and out of to have certain types of shows never offered on their account. I say this because our kids figured out early on to just use my profile.

GasBandit said:

It's a sticky wicket, to be sure. It seems like the gateway to a slippery slope, but it also seems like to me there should definitely be a point at which it can be said "this is encouraging people to commit suicide." Does this fall beyond that threshold? Probably. But how do we define that threshold for future reference? Where would, say, the original M*A*S*H movie fall on that scale? Suicide is painless and brings on many changes, it says...

Click to expand...

Yeah but if MASH said suicide is painless, and you're cool for doing it, and you'll get everything you as the target viewer seeks out of life by doing it.

I'm glad they confided into the wiretap instead of a plushie, on the off-chance something bad might've happened.

Dunno what the right thing to do would be. Stumbling on the wrong kind of media at too young and age had both good and bad impact on myself, speaking as someone that started downloading weird shit to watch on eMule at 11-12... Not the sort of thing I would recommend as part of a balanced teenhood. The streaming world (and the rise of tablets and other "dumber" internet access points) already feels like a huge step-up in terms of keeping kids safe by curating the content they get via walled gardens. I probably wouldn't have gotten my start into a bunch of subcultures with a Kindle Fire in hand.

Making you specify a profile's birthday/age at creation, and then tailoring both the recommendations and what triggers a push alert to the main account's holder could be a nice automated thing for them to set. Beyond those sorts of nudge-away patterns, and making parental controls more robust (and default-on), not sure what else would be effective that didn't involve banning content. Looking into it, and not to change the topic, it sounds like Netflix released much better parental controls back in April, those might be worth a look for anyone with children. I briefly looked at the old 'Kids' accounts last year and they were really crappy, this sounds far more usable and granular.

I’m not sure about parental controls. I mean, she’s 13. I watched everything at 13 (except outright sexually explicit stuff). I know things are a bit more over the top now. But this is a case by case thing to me. This show is unusual and I think it needs to be treated as such. It’s probably difficult to anticipate what show or movie will work out like this, but this is observable. There’s no longer any need for anticipation.

It’s also too easy for kids to access their parent’s profile on the main screen.

fade said:

I’m not sure about parental controls. I mean, she’s 13. I watched everything at 13 (except outright sexually explicit stuff). I know things are a bit more over the top now. But this is a case by case thing to me. This show is unusual and I think it needs to be treated as such. It’s probably difficult to anticipate what show or movie will work out like this, but this is observable. There’s no longer any need for anticipation.

Click to expand...

Maybe you weren't the average 13 year old, dunno. I was more... pliable (?) as a young kid, and probably would've benefited from literally any parental oversight on my browsing/media consumption habits. Dunno which one of us veers closer to a typical mind (neither?) but I've always modeled teenagers as more impressionable than adults. Wasn't there an uproar about the Slenderman crap a few years ago, with kids getting too much into it? There was also the "Blue Whale" challenge stuff (self-harm copycatting) in several countries, and so on so forth.

Squidleybits said:

It’s also too easy for kids to access their parent’s profile on the main screen.

Click to expand...

FWIW you can set profile pins, last I checked.

man i still remember being 10 and my dad taking me to mortal kombat the movie. I know what everyone thinks, but its one of my fondest memories with my dad, and he, i want to think, knew what he was doing. he made me promise i understood it was fantasy, that I wouldn't repeat any of the moves i saw, and that if at any time he felt it was to adult for me we would leave. We sat through the whole thing and i was the only boy in my class who saw it in theaters. my dad let me do and see things i probably shouldn't have, and his willingness to allow me to experiencing things allowed me to grow as a person. in return when he told me, son you cant do this, i understood he meant it, and I didn't try to supersede his wishes. just an aside on my life, not meant as any commentary on anything thats been said here about how we raise children. I hope everything looks up for your daughter Fade, being a teenager is rough.

Follow-up:

First, she's fine. We have scheduled a counselor, and she's talking openly about it. I think this was a little cry for help mixed with a lot of teen drama. But like I said, I'm taking it seriously. It actually turns out it wasn't Alexa who called 911. It was her friend who she was calling through the Alexa. I did not know it could do that. So the Alexa is mine, now. I gave it to her because thanks to the sale on black Friday 2019 where I think they were at single digit prices for a while, I received several from friends for Christmas. Apparently they all thought I needed one. Anyway. Everything is back to normal after that strange interlude. Except the counseling sessions.

fade said:

It actually turns out it wasn't Alexa who called 911. It was her friend who she was calling through the Alexa. I did not know it could do that.

Click to expand...

What do you mean? It was just a friend of hers calling it. That doesn't have anything to do with Alexa. Unless you mean you didn't know you could make phone calls with Alexa, in which case I'm genuinely surprised that your daughter doesn't have a cell phone. I was under the impression that all teenagers would get one at this point.

She does but I don’t let my kids have a cell phone at night. They would just be on it instead of sleeping. No phones, video games or TVs in the rooms at night. I am dead set against it because they will not self regulate. I don’t see any reason they need any of those at night anyway.

But no I was not aware you could make phone calls from the Echo.