New healthcare bill isn't dreaded socialism

[blotsfan]

I dunno, I live right by the Canadian border, and a ton of Canadian doctors and patients come over here for our system, so I don't think following other countries is a good idea either.

Can you at least provide a source for this?

Doctors come over because they can make a RIDICULOUS amount of money being a specialist, like a dermatologist or a plastic surgeon. Patients would be insane to come over for anything but elective or cosmetic surgery, and if they're doing that, they can afford the insane costs anyway.

Or maybe if they have a deadly disease and need treatment within the next 6 months.

 

[Steven Soderburgin]

I dunno, I live right by the Canadian border, and a ton of Canadian doctors and patients come over here for our system, so I don't think following other countries is a good idea either.

Can you at least provide a source for this?

Doctors come over because they can make a RIDICULOUS amount of money being a specialist, like a dermatologist or a plastic surgeon. Patients would be insane to come over for anything but elective or cosmetic surgery, and if they're doing that, they can afford the insane costs anyway.

Or maybe if they have a deadly disease and need treatment within the next 6 months.

So you're just going to spout Rush Limbaugh talking points instead of actually responding to the points raised or providing credible sources for your bullshit. Gotcha.

 

[The Messiah]

It will ALWAYS work toward the best interests of the peo-*completely disregards that the housing market and banking industry and much of our current financial crisis is the result of unregulated businesses running wild and doing whatever they wanted*

HAHAHAHAH! You sir, are absolutely clueless. The housing/banking/financial crises of the last few years is 100% caused by government meddling. Regulation is one thing, legislation such as the the Community Reinvestment Act is what fucked everything up.


The free market system will always be superior to government controlled alternatives. As we have seen in the past, the market moves up and down, is certainly susceptible to crashes and corrections, but will always correct itself if left alone and allowed to flourish (with strict oversight, of course). As soon as you add corrupt politicians (is there any other kind?) and lobbyists to the mix, things go south, as they have done here in Amerika. Government that governs least, governs best.

This country was founded on the principles of self reliabilty and responsibility, and this is what politicians fail to understand, sink or swim, you are on your own, if you can't succeed, if you can't make it happen under your own power and abilities in the world, that is your own problem. You can't legislate people into being successful, it has to be a personal and individual choice, just like the constitution states. Remember that, the constitution?

 

[Steven Soderburgin]

HAHAHAHAH! You sir, are absolutely clueless. The housing/banking/financial crises of the last few years is 100% caused by government meddling. Regulation is one thing, legislation such as the the Community Reinvestment Act is what fucked everything up.


The free market system will always be superior to government controlled alternatives. As we have seen in the past, the market moves up and down, is certainly susceptible to crashes and corrections, but will always correct itself if left alone and allowed to flourish (with strict oversight, of course). As soon as you add corrupt politicians (is there any other kind?) and lobbyists to the mix, things go south, as they have done here in Amerika. Government that governs least, governs best.

This country was founded on the principles of self reliabilty and responsibility, and this is what politicians fail to understand, sink or swim, you are on your own, if you can't succeed, if you can't make it happen under your own power and abilities in the world, that is your own problem. You can't legislate people into being successful, it has to be a personal and individual choice, just like the constitution states. Remember that, the constitution?

In conclusion, Ron Paul '08?

 

[Covar]

Google "medicare underpays doctors" you can pick any of thousands.

Medicare isn't what nationalized healthcare is supposed to be, I wouldn't use it as a detracting point ~_~

It still shows that the government is incompetent when it comes to handling healthcare. Why should it have more responsibility?

So I kinda got this from the Daily Show, but what the *.

Is the healthcare supplied to our Armed Forces provided by a private company or is it government run?

Tricare is run by the DoD's Military Health System. Like most military programs nowadays its also contracted out.

The ultimate responsible organization for administration of TRICARE is the U.S. Department of Defense Military Health System, which organized the TRICARE Management Activity (TMA). The TRICARE Management Activity contracts with several large health insurance corporations to provide claims processing, customer service and other administrative functions to the TRICARE program. Currently, there are three regional Managed Care Support Contractors (MCSCs), a Medicare/TRICARE Dual Eligible Fiscal Intermediary Contractor (TDEFIC), and a TRICARE Pharmacy contractor, who administers both Mail Order Pharmacy (TMOP) and Retail Pharmacy (TRRx) programs. In addition several administrative contractors provide quality management, auditing, and statistical services. TMA also oversees the TRICARE Dental Program (TDP), run by United Concordia, and TRICARE Retiree Dental Program (TRDP), run by Delta Dental.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

In conclusion, Ron Paul '08?

Glenn Beck/Sarah Palin '12

 

[Papillon]

I dunno, I live right by the Canadian border, and a ton of Canadian doctors and patients come over here for our system, so I don't think following other countries is a good idea either.

Can you at least provide a source for this?

Doctors come over because they can make a RIDICULOUS amount of money being a specialist, like a dermatologist or a plastic surgeon. Patients would be insane to come over for anything but elective or cosmetic surgery, and if they're doing that, they can afford the insane costs anyway.

Sometimes Canadians also go to the US if they have a very rare disease. If there's only one or two specialists in a disease on the entire they're much more likely to be in the US because:

1) The US has a larger population, so there are more people with the disease, and
2) They can probably make more money in the US.

Obviously, by its very nature, this is a rare situation.

 

[ElJuski]

Messiah, do you really have to annoy me by hiding under your stupid alt? So tempted to just switch it.

 

[bigcountry23]

Messiah, do you really have to annoy me by hiding under your stupid alt? So tempted to just switch it.

Do it! do it! I love it when they pull the mask off and you get the "I would have gotten away with it too if it wasn't for you kids and your dog" line... :clap:

 

[Bowielee]

Well, I can certainly speak to the billing side of privatized medical care at the moment.

I usually don't pull out my credentials, but I've been working in medical billing and collections for over 7 years. I worked at resolving claims, collecting patient bills and have basically seen all this stuff in real time. Hospitals are mandated to not turn away anyone considered "emergent" upon admission. We did not, in fact, turn ANY patients away from either our emergency or clinical areas (though, as I understand it, that was in the process of changing for chronic non-payers seeking non-emergency services).

That's why I'm of 2 minds on this.

As a citizen myself, I would love to be able to walk into a hospital and get treated regardless of my insurance status and not have to worry about bills. I have a direct personal stake in this as about 10 years ago I had to file bankruptcy on a medical bill because I was in between jobs and had my gall bladder removed and ended up owing 18k for the surgery. I had no insurance, I made too much money for any relief from the hospital, but not nearly enough to pay off the debt until I was in my 60s. So, I FULLY understand what it means to be kind of screwed by the medical system.

Now, let me turn to the business aspect of the hospital.

Quite frankly, the above quote about Medicare underpaying doctors and hospitals is 100% true. I beleive the return for medicare claims was 33 cents on the dollar. Though, as also stated above, Medicare is not a good example of how a federally run insurance should work.

Fun Fact: Medicare doesn't believe that seeing and hearing are "medically necessary" so will not cover any eye care (unless you're diabetic) or hearing aides. What they pay hospitals IS attrocious.


A hospital needs money to function. Without it, no new advances are made, people are seen with outdated equipment and mistakes are made because of it.

I do know that hospitals are suffering because they aren't recouping money from either insurance companies, or from patients.


I do know that as a national trend, people with medical debt is increasing while their ability to pay is decreasing. with health care the way it is now, there is no way that this can continue without hitting some sort of critical mass.

The long and the short of it is that people ARE avioding getting needed medical care because they'd literally die than sink their families into debt.

In the end, it's the insurance companies that are the biggest threat. The denial rate of claims is skyrocketing as premiums and deductibles increase. If there's any regulation needed, that's where it needs to start.

 

[The Messiah]

Your personal politics are not important here.

The founding fathers of this great nation intended YOU to be responsible for YOU. Think about that for a second. How many thousands and thousands of people immigrated to Amerika in order to make a new life for themselves, based solely on their ability to succeed? Personal responsibility is what this country is all about.

Basically, it boils down to this; If you can't make it on your own, then you are fucked. Harsh as it may seem, that is what the founding fathers intended. Not a nation of beggars and whiners.

Also, for the last time, I am not an alt. I share a router with my brother, who lives in the same house, hence the identical IP address. Since we use the same router, we have the same IP. Understand?

Also, it's worth mentioning that he isn't nearly as rabid as I am about these types of political rants and prefers to distance himself from me and my overbearing and abrasive personality, which is why he made me start my own account, rather than post under his name? Got it? I AM NOT AN ALT.

 

[ElJuski]

Whatever you say, poncho. You should smudge off some of that froth from the screen. I also hope that your idealistic, unpragmatic approach to politics doesn't pound you in the ass someday.

 

[Bowielee]

Your personal politics are not important here.

The founding fathers of this great nation intended YOU to be responsible for YOU. Think about that for a second. How many thousands and thousands of people immigrated to Amerika in order to make a new life for themselves, based solely on their ability to succeed? Personal responsibility is what this country is all about.

Basically, it boils down to this; If you can't make it on your own, then you are smurfed. Harsh as it may seem, that is what the founding fathers intended. Not a nation of beggars and whiners.

Also, for the last time, I am not an alt. I share a router with my brother, who lives in the same house, hence the identical IP address. Since we use the same router, we have the same IP. Understand?

Also, it's worth mentioning that he isn't nearly as rabid as I am about these types of political rants and prefers to distance himself from me and my overbearing and abrasive personality, which is why he made me start my own account, rather than post under his name? Got it? I AM NOT AN ALT.

Yeah, screw that old lady who got robbed, she should have been packing heat. Sorry, buddy, but the Jimmy Crockett days are over and a system without rules and regulations will collapse upon itself.

 

[strawman]

New healthcare bill isn't dreaded socialism

-Adam

 

[The Messiah]

Ahhh yes, because that is exactly what I said. My ''political leanings'' and there should be no rules. We should just be like the old west, guns blazing. That is EXACTLY what I said. Yep. You must be an expert at that game ''Jump to Conclusions.''

 

[Cajungal]

It bothers me that a lot of the same people with those kinds of political ideas are the same ones who like to call this country a "Christian Nation." I'm not assuming you're one of those people, Messiah, just venting I suppose.

 

[Bowielee]

Ahhh yes, because that is exactly what I said. My ''political leanings'' and there should be no rules. We should just be like the old west, guns blazing. That is EXACTLY what I said. Yep. You must be an expert at that game ''Jump to Conclusions.''

That's the essence of the republican rally. Less government, less regulation= more profit for those who are already rich by screwing over those who arent.

The whole dogged determination thing is old hat nowadays anyways. You used to be able to make it in this country with a dream and determination, but with corporate lobbyists and mega corporations, small businesses are dying off. You can work your ass off and still be none the better for it.

 

[Papillon]

What I'd be interested to see is the effect of malpractice lawsuits on the cost of health care in the US. From what I hear, the US court system tends to give a lot of money for pain & suffering and punitive damages, whereas in Canada (from what I hear), the court will give very little for pain & suffering and rarely award punitive damages.

I think the cost of health care in the US is the highest anywhere in the world -- when I've gotten travel insurance, there was one plan for anywhere in the world except the US, and a different plan which included the US. The plan which included the US cost almost twice as much as the one that didn't

 

[Espy]

What I'd be interested to see is the effect of malpractice lawsuits on the cost of health care in the US.

It's significant from what I have heard. However getting the politicians who are so in bed with trial lawyers to do anything about it is a joke. It's much easier to just shove the costs on to the taxpayer.

 

[The Messiah]

It bothers me that a lot of the same people with those kinds of political ideas are the same ones who like to call this country a "Christian Nation." I'm not assuming you're one of those people, Messiah, just venting I suppose.

I would call it a nation that was founded on the ideals of freedom. Freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, etc etc.

We are a secular nation, with clear delineations of church and state. It's largely coincidence, oppression, famine and a variety of other factors that caused the mass influx of Christian immigrants into Amerika over the years.

And I would like to point out that my views, and the views and ideals clearly stated in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are not political in nature. Self responsibility is literally an underutilized and rarely discussed facet of Darwinism, ie survival of the fittest. This the very core of the belief that the founding fathers had that the new world would attract the strong and the bold, an exceptional caste of peoples who would build a great land of self reliant, hard working, salt of the earth type folks. These beliefs are as far from political as they can possibly be and they were initially very successful in their implementation. I doubt they would even recognize the country we live in today as the one they fought, lived and died for.

 

[Bowielee]

It bothers me that a lot of the same people with those kinds of political ideas are the same ones who like to call this country a "Christian Nation." I'm not assuming you're one of those people, Messiah, just venting I suppose.

I would call it a nation that was founded on the ideals of freedom. Freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, etc etc.

We are a secular nation, with clear delineations of church and state. It's largely coincidence, oppression, famine and a variety of other factors that caused the mass influx of Christian immigrants into Amerika over the years.

And I would like to point out that my views, and the views and ideals clearly stated in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are not political in nature. Self responsibility is literally an underutilized and rarely discussed facet of Darwinism, ie survival of the fittest. This the very core of the belief that the founding fathers had that the new world would attract the strong and the bold, an exceptional caste of peoples who would build a great land of self reliant, hard working, salt of the earth type folks. These beliefs are as far from political as they can possibly be and they were initially very successful in their implementation. I doubt they would even recognize the country we live in today as the one they fought, lived and died for.

The problem is that those "hard working, salt of the earth" types of folks are the ones who are getting screwed over by the healthcare industry.

 

[Espy]

It bothers me that a lot of the same people with those kinds of political ideas are the same ones who like to call this country a "Christian Nation." I'm not assuming you're one of those people, Messiah, just venting I suppose.

It is interesting isn't it? Technically, from a biblical perspective the church should take care of those people not the government. It is one of the reasons why I'm more open to something from the government, since the church hasn't stepped up to it's God given duty. Does that make sense?

 

[The Messiah]

Ahhh yes, because that is exactly what I said. My ''political leanings'' and there should be no rules. We should just be like the old west, guns blazing. That is EXACTLY what I said. Yep. You must be an expert at that game ''Jump to Conclusions.''

That's the essence of the republican rally. Less government, less regulation= more profit for those who are already rich by screwing over those who arent.

The whole dogged determination thing is old hat nowadays anyways. You used to be able to make it in this country with a dream and determination, but with corporate lobbyists and mega corporations, small businesses are dying off. You can work your a** off and still be none the better for it, so you shouldn't work hard and try to be successful or start your own business or try to compete against corporations because you will fail, just give up and wait for your welfare check.

FTFY

And Republicans, like all politicians, are corrupt, useless and generally held in contempt by true fiscal conservatives.

 

[Denbrought]

Sorry, most countries don't run on darwinian principles any more but humanitarian ones. It isn't about the survival of the fittest but the survival of the whole now.

Also, the founding fathers would probably go WHAT THE FUCK FLYING STEEL BIRDS.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

true fiscal conservatives.

Libertarians?

 

[Bowielee]

[quote="The Messiah":1wo3kzt8]Ahhh yes, because that is exactly what I said. My ''political leanings'' and there should be no rules. We should just be like the old west, guns blazing. That is EXACTLY what I said. Yep. You must be an expert at that game ''Jump to Conclusions.''

That's the essence of the republican rally. Less government, less regulation= more profit for those who are already rich by screwing over those who arent.

The whole dogged determination thing is old hat nowadays anyways. You used to be able to make it in this country with a dream and determination, but with corporate lobbyists and mega corporations, small businesses are dying off. You can work your a** off and still be none the better for it, so you shouldn't work hard and try to be successful or start your own business or try to compete against corporations because you will fail, just give up and wait for your welfare check.

FTFY

And Republicans, like all politicians, are corrupt, useless and generally held in contempt by true fiscal conservatives.[/quote:1wo3kzt8]

Now who's jumping to conclusions?

Yes, there are only 2 options available, own your own business, or collect welfare. :eyeroll:

 

[Eriol]

I dunno, I live right by the Canadian border, and a ton of Canadian doctors and patients come over here for our system, so I don't think following other countries is a good idea either.

Patients would be insane to come over for anything but elective or cosmetic surgery, and if they're doing that, they can afford the insane costs anyway.

They come to avoid dying on waiting lists. My Mom went to a private MRI clinic for her knees (this wasn't a life-or-death situation, just a "living in pain ALL THE TIME" situation) and paid the money, because otherwise she would have been waiting 6+ months for an MRI. And then after that "private" part, it was months after that to see the specialist. And THEN she was booked for surgery (again, months later).

Now imagine that with Cancer. Nice wait time, eh? Hope it doesn't metastasize in that time!


I'm not against public providing services, and I'd agree the US system is FUBAR, but do NOT even try and put forth the idea that Canada's system is GOOD. It might be "not as bad" as the US system, but by no stretch of the imagination is it a model you should emulate. Dying on waiting lists is NOT a solution. Or other fuck-ups that happen routinely up here (that actually KILLED my former family doctor. Got taken to the wrong hospital TWICE. And that was in the early 90s when it was better than now).

 

[Covar]

Sorry, most countries don't run on darwinian principles any more but humanitarian ones. It isn't about the survival of the fittest but the survival of the whole now.

Also, the founding fathers would probably go WHAT THE smurf FLYING STEEL BIRDS.

...

/me goes off and re-watches Bill and Ted

 

[Cajungal]

It bothers me that a lot of the same people with those kinds of political ideas are the same ones who like to call this country a "Christian Nation." I'm not assuming you're one of those people, Messiah, just venting I suppose.

It is interesting isn't it? Technically, from a biblical perspective the church should take care of those people not the government. It is one of the reasons why I'm more open to something from the government, since the church hasn't stepped up to it's God given duty. Does that make sense?

I guess so. I'll be the first to admit that I know so little about this kind of thing. I think our system now is terribly flawed, but all I ever freakin do is admire the problem. I wouldn't know where to start when it comes to fixing it. That's why I just sit and listen in threads like this. It's embarrassing. For so many, the answer seems so simple. I just read the news, listen to politicians, then grab my head and say "I don't know I don't know!"

 

[The Messiah]

Sorry, most countries don't run on darwinian principles any more but humanitarian ones. It isn't about the survival of the fittest but the survival of the whole now.

That is why we fail. It's admirable to want to help everyone. I have a particular weakness for stray dogs. I mean, the poor doggy cannot care for himself due to generations of domestication. But I eventually broke myself of bringing home strays (although I occassionally succumb, which is why I have the two shiteaters that I have now). I had to draw a line on my own weakness, you see. Because, although it's heart wrenching to watch the suffering of others, you can't help them by handicapping your own ability to succeed.

What good will it do a starving child if I am unable to feed myself? None. I have only added another starving person to the world. You can't help everyone that needs it, you can only work to ensure your own success. Darwinism. Self reliance. Responsibilty. These are not ''political machinations,'' to be adopted by warring political factions. This is what we call ''logic.''

Also, the founding fathers would probably go WHAT THE smurf FLYING STEEL BIRDS.

Sorcery!

 

[Iaculus]

It bothers me that a lot of the same people with those kinds of political ideas are the same ones who like to call this country a "Christian Nation." I'm not assuming you're one of those people, Messiah, just venting I suppose.

I would call it a nation that was founded on the ideals of freedom. Freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, etc etc.

We are a secular nation, with clear delineations of church and state. It's largely coincidence, oppression, famine and a variety of other factors that caused the mass influx of Christian immigrants into Amerika over the years.

And I would like to point out that my views, and the views and ideals clearly stated in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are not political in nature. Self responsibility is literally an underutilized and rarely discussed facet of Darwinism, ie survival of the fittest. This the very core of the belief that the founding fathers had that the new world would attract the strong and the bold, an exceptional caste of peoples who would build a great land of self reliant, hard working, salt of the earth type folks. These beliefs are as far from political as they can possibly be and they were initially very successful in their implementation. I doubt they would even recognize the country we live in today as the one they fought, lived and died for.

Oh, dude, you fail at evolution. 'Survival of the fittest' means 'survival of those best suited to their current environment'. No more, no less.

 

[Bowielee]

Sorry, most countries don't run on darwinian principles any more but humanitarian ones. It isn't about the survival of the fittest but the survival of the whole now.

That is why we fail. It's admirable to want to help everyone. I have a particular weakness for stray dogs. I mean, the poor doggy cannot care for himself due to generations of domestication. But I eventually broke myself of bringing home strays (although I occassionally succumb, which is why I have the two shiteaters that I have now). I had to draw a line on my own weakness, you see. Because, although it's heart wrenching to watch the suffering of others, you can't help them by handicapping your own ability to succeed.

What good will it do a starving child if I am unable to feed myself? None. I have only added another starving person to the world. You can't help everyone that needs it, you can only work to ensure your own success. Darwinism. Self reliance. Responsibilty. These are not ''political machinations,'' to be adopted by warring political factions. This is what we call ''logic.''

Also, the founding fathers would probably go WHAT THE smurf FLYING STEEL BIRDS.

Sorcery!

The problem is that you seem to think that I'm talking about welfare cases and people who don't want to work. I'm talking about honest hard working people who can't make it in a system that's inherently stacked against them.

 

[The Messiah]

Oh, dude, you fail at evolution. 'Survival of the fittest' means 'survival of those best suited to their current environment'. No more, no less.

Ed Zachary

 

[drawn_inward]

I really don't understand America's stance on this, why is it so controversial to set up something like the UK's NHS? I've got free health care and i'm not a member of the socialist party aranoid:

I don't want to see my taxes fly through the roof to get everyone "free" health care. I've seen the taxes in Canada when I visited. No thanks.

If the cost is the problem, go find out why hospitals get to charge whatever the fuck the want b/c an insurance company is picking up the bill.

I broke my leg when I was 16, and I was charged for tylenol at $3 a pill, $12 for the pen that was used in my room, etc. I couldn't believe it. I know hospitals are businesses, but there is some kind of ridiculous circle jerk amongst the insurance companies and hospital administers.

But, if you ever think that our government or any government is going to do something that will benefit the people without screwing them at the same time then you're naive. See signature. What other government program that you know of is run with efficiency and isn't bloated with pork? Public education? Postal service?

 

[Denbrought]

Sorry, most countries don't run on darwinian principles any more but humanitarian ones. It isn't about the survival of the fittest but the survival of the whole now.

That is why we fail. It's admirable to want to help everyone. I have a particular weakness for stray dogs. I mean, the poor doggy cannot care for himself due to generations of domestication. But I eventually broke myself of bringing home strays (although I occassionally succumb, which is why I have the two shiteaters that I have now). I had to draw a line on my own weakness, you see. Because, although it's heart wrenching to watch the suffering of others, you can't help them by handicapping your own ability to succeed.

What good will it do a starving child if I am unable to feed myself? None. I have only added another starving person to the world. You can't help everyone that needs it, you can only work to ensure your own success. Darwinism. Self reliance. Responsibilty. These are not ''political machinations,'' to be adopted by warring political factions. This is what we call ''logic.''

A few posts ago you called somebody out in being apathetic (the FTFY post). Now you're the one being a defeatist. People like to live walking towards ideals, and today's collective ego has chosen to not let someone die puking blood on the sidewalk because they couldn't afford their treatment, even though it was available to them. This isn't about hungry people next to empty stores (yadda yadda starving african children) but the ones we have resources to help and the proximity to not be easy to ignore them.