Export thread
NOOOOOOOO! George Lucas is at it again.
#1
Steve
Steve
George is tooling with the Blu Ray release of Star Wars Episode VI with the now iconic Vader "Noooooo". Thank you George. You are a true visionary.
http://movies.yahoo.com/blogs/movie...-more-changes-original-trilogy-191605319.html
http://movies.yahoo.com/blogs/movie...-more-changes-original-trilogy-191605319.html
#2
ThatNickGuy
ThatNickGuy
I'm willing to spend money on Star Wars again when Lucas is willing to stop fucking around with it.
#3
sixpackshaker
sixpackshaker
As long as he is screwing around in there... I wish he would hand over the notes to the prequels to a competent director and writer, and let some one make a decent film out of them.
#4
DarkAudit
DarkAudit
Fuck you, George. Just fuck you.
#5
Espy
Espy
Honestly, he needs to stop doing little thing and just go nuts.
I mean, go nuts George. Insert all new actors. New score. Ashton Kutcher instead of Harrison Ford. Come on man. None of this piddly stuff.
I mean, go nuts George. Insert all new actors. New score. Ashton Kutcher instead of Harrison Ford. Come on man. None of this piddly stuff.
#6
Hailey Knight
Hailey Knight
It'd be better if he deleted a certain "NOOO" rather than adding more. That was a good scene at the end of Revenge that was totally ruined. John Williams was in fine form for it, the music swelling, and then... NOOOOO... gods.
My wife had her kill face on when I showed her the edited clip for the end of Return.
This is shit.
My wife had her kill face on when I showed her the edited clip for the end of Return.
This is shit.
#7
Cheesy1
Cheesy1
Oh, I sense a new meme coming on. People editing in Vader's "NOOO" at other moments of the movies. Like when Vader is spinning off into space after the first Death Star explodes. "NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!"
#8
Hailey Knight
Hailey Knight
This should happen.Oh, I sense a new meme coming on. People editing in Vader's "NOOO" at other moments of the movies. Like when Vader is spinning off into space after the first Death Star explodes. "NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!"
#9
Gryfter
Gryfter
I... he... what the...noooooooooooo!
#10
Tress
Tress
#11
fade
NOOoooOOOOOOOoooo, not another one word only thread...
fade
NOOoooOOOOOOOoooo, not another one word only thread...
#12
blotsfan
blotsfan
I dunno, I don't think its the worst. If that was in it when it was first made, I don't think the movies would be looked at as worse at all. Of course, it doesn't make the movie any better, so its just Lucas liking change for the sake of change as usual.
#14
ThatNickGuy
-When he starts force-choking that dude who made fun of the Force.
ThatNickGuy
-While Luke is lighting the body on fire.Oh, I sense a new meme coming on. People editing in Vader's "NOOO" at other moments of the movies. Like when Vader is spinning off into space after the first Death Star explodes. "NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!"
-When he starts force-choking that dude who made fun of the Force.
#15
evilmike
evilmike
#16
Shegokigo
Shegokigo
Am I really the only one that the changes he's made aren't enough to deter me from finally having all 6 films on BLU-RAY on my HDLEDLCD TV?
I've been a fan since I was a child and I have to admit, very openly that I did not hate the direction that Lucas took the pre-quels. I could have done without Jar-Jar and the Pod Race scene in Ep. 1 but honestly? I thought it was a decent build up. Anakin being a pompous, over zealous, self-absorbed teenager? Yep, accurate to a kid his age being told from day 1 that he was "The Chosen One". The "Nooooo!" at the end of Ep3? Pretty inline for the wuss that he was AT that time. He didn't become "badass Vader" till after that last bit of his soul was crushed. Honestly the only REAL complaint that I've heard over the years that I agree with is that Hayden's acting was so wooden, that you couldn't really feel for his character's emotional swings and the budding relationship between him and Padme.
There are people out there that don't and even think the changes are good. As for this "Noooo!" being added? Kinda fits with him remembering himself, it's the remembering of his own soul and remembering how to feel pain and loss as he did before he lost his humanity.
I've been a fan since I was a child and I have to admit, very openly that I did not hate the direction that Lucas took the pre-quels. I could have done without Jar-Jar and the Pod Race scene in Ep. 1 but honestly? I thought it was a decent build up. Anakin being a pompous, over zealous, self-absorbed teenager? Yep, accurate to a kid his age being told from day 1 that he was "The Chosen One". The "Nooooo!" at the end of Ep3? Pretty inline for the wuss that he was AT that time. He didn't become "badass Vader" till after that last bit of his soul was crushed. Honestly the only REAL complaint that I've heard over the years that I agree with is that Hayden's acting was so wooden, that you couldn't really feel for his character's emotional swings and the budding relationship between him and Padme.
There are people out there that don't and even think the changes are good. As for this "Noooo!" being added? Kinda fits with him remembering himself, it's the remembering of his own soul and remembering how to feel pain and loss as he did before he lost his humanity.
#17
LittleSin
LittleSin
I disagree with this new 'no'. I just thought the body language was so strong in that scene. You couldn't seen his face, you couldn't judge what he was thinking..but the body language said more then words ever could. Nothing needed to be said, a viewer could FEEL the change.
Dubbing in a dramatic "no" will take away from that marvellous performance.
Dubbing in a dramatic "no" will take away from that marvellous performance.
#18
fade
fade
I agree, Shegokigo. I never quite understood the prequel hate. Most of the complaints people make about the prequels really apply to the originals, too. The real problem is that Gen X grew up and met the prequels with their more critical adult eyes.
#19
Terrik
Terrik
I guess I kinda hated the "everyone met everyone---IN THE PAST" deal with the prequels, and how certain things had explanations where none were needed (like the invention of midichorians, the "force ghost" etc.),
#20
Shegokigo
Shegokigo
And those were things I didn't actually mind. Everyone met everyone in the past gives it a big circular feeling when watching all 6 films back to back and is quite fun. The explanations, while not needed, weren't exactly unnecessary either. I find it so funny how HUGE people blow up at the midichlorian thing. "Really? Get over it, it's just an explanation that didn't coincide with the idea you made up in your heads."
#21
ScytheRexx
In movies, some of the best emotional scenes are the ones not burdened by dialog. It is actually a rule in film that if you can get a scene across without dialog, it is better to leave off the dialog then to put it in. Directors will sometimes leave entire sections of a script unused simply because the scene, in the end, got the point across without needing an actor to "explain" it through words. Darth Vader looking at his son being killed, walking over and picking up the Emperor, and throwing him down the pit, is one of those moments. You don't need to add words to it to help the audience understand what is going through his mind.
ScytheRexx
No one is saying the "Noooo!" does not fit the situation, just the fact that the "Noooo!" removed the power behind the moment.There are people out there that don't and even think the changes are good. As for this "Noooo!" being added? Kinda fits with him remembering himself, it's the remembering of his own soul and remembering how to feel pain and loss as he did before he lost his humanity.
In movies, some of the best emotional scenes are the ones not burdened by dialog. It is actually a rule in film that if you can get a scene across without dialog, it is better to leave off the dialog then to put it in. Directors will sometimes leave entire sections of a script unused simply because the scene, in the end, got the point across without needing an actor to "explain" it through words. Darth Vader looking at his son being killed, walking over and picking up the Emperor, and throwing him down the pit, is one of those moments. You don't need to add words to it to help the audience understand what is going through his mind.
#22
Shegokigo
Shegokigo
I get that, I do. I mean I also thought the scene played out just fine and the revision isn't necessary at all.
However, I just find it hilarious that people blow up to the point of "I REFUSE TO GIVE THAT TARDO ANY MONEY FOR THIS VISUALLY SUPERIOR TO ANY PREVIOUS INCARNATION FILM BECAUSE VADER NOW SAYS "NOOOO!" DURING THAT SCENE".
Like, laugh out loud hilarious.
However, I just find it hilarious that people blow up to the point of "I REFUSE TO GIVE THAT TARDO ANY MONEY FOR THIS VISUALLY SUPERIOR TO ANY PREVIOUS INCARNATION FILM BECAUSE VADER NOW SAYS "NOOOO!" DURING THAT SCENE".
Like, laugh out loud hilarious.
#23
fade
Oh there were definitely problems. I think we'd all like to put our fingers in our ears and go "LALALALA" about midichlorians.
My son (8) and his friends prefer the prequels by a landslide. They have almost the opposite reaction that my adult friends do. To my son, the originals are fun, but they're the ones you knuckle down and get through to the end of the story.
fade
Oh there were definitely problems. I think we'd all like to put our fingers in our ears and go "LALALALA" about midichlorians.
My son (8) and his friends prefer the prequels by a landslide. They have almost the opposite reaction that my adult friends do. To my son, the originals are fun, but they're the ones you knuckle down and get through to the end of the story.
#24
sixpackshaker
sixpackshaker
Yes that fade. My nieces and nephews sleep through the original trilogy.
#25
ScytheRexx
ScytheRexx
(Warning, this is a bit of a long rant)
I think most are just upset because Darth Vader, in general, has slowly been losing a lot of the things we loved about him. He was always, at least to me, a bastion of confidence and determination. You see him in the Original Trilogy and his voice combined with his movements and how he treats others, you just felt like he was not a guy you ever wanted to mess with because he would calmly fuck you up.
The Prequel Trilogy changed that, as when we first see him he basically bumbled through his first battles as a little jesus christ kid, spends most of the next movie crying about the world being unfair like a spoiled teenager, and then in the final movie has scenes where he is "raging" like a madman. Could you imagine how amazing the final scenes of the last movie would have been if, after Anakin got his limbs chopped off, he just laid their, staring at Obi-Wan in pain, but not going "ahhhhhhh I hate you ahaahahhhhhhhhh I hate you hate hate ahhhhhhhhhhhh!"
I mean, think of the first scene of Darth Vader. Tell me this wouldn't have been a stronger scene and in-line with his character from the Original Trilogy. He is laying on the table, pain on his face but otherwise motionless. They put the suit on him, no fear in his eyes as they put on the mask because his mind is so lost. They bring up the table, and he asks about Padme, learning that she is dead. Without a sound his hand shakes and just like in the movie the droids around him get crushed, but he remains nearly motionless. Suddenly the forces die down and settle, his arm no longer shaking, and he steps out calmly, before turning and saying "What is your will, my master?"
Here is the thing about the added dialog and why it ruins much of the original scene for me.
The Original: Darth Vader is watching his son getting killed. He fights internally with himself about it, and then you can see it in his movements that he basically thought to himself "No, I am not going to let you do this." before walking over, picking up the Emperor, and throwing him into the pit almost like he was tossing aside a log or other obstruction. It was like he finally realized he needed to remove the burden from his shoulders, and with cold determination, he did it, to save his son, and deep down, himself. No panic, no stress, just a realization he made happen with the same cold determination that defined him.
The New Scene: Darth Vader is watching his son getting killed. He slowly starts to panic and gets more vocally stressed at his situation, until like a rubber band he snaps and jumps on the Emperor, throwing him over the edge. There is no more cold determination, there is no more undertone of him doing it his own salvation just as much as it was saving his son. He is just a man throwing up his arms in panic and doing the first thing that comes to his mind. An instinctual reaction rather then one of his own redeemed choice.
In other words, most of us saw Darth Vader as a calm, even calculating individual. The new movies make it seem like he bumbled into most of his situations on a whim. The new "Nooo!" is just another change to him making a choice on a random whim rather then seemingly coming up with the choice on his own.
I think most are just upset because Darth Vader, in general, has slowly been losing a lot of the things we loved about him. He was always, at least to me, a bastion of confidence and determination. You see him in the Original Trilogy and his voice combined with his movements and how he treats others, you just felt like he was not a guy you ever wanted to mess with because he would calmly fuck you up.
The Prequel Trilogy changed that, as when we first see him he basically bumbled through his first battles as a little jesus christ kid, spends most of the next movie crying about the world being unfair like a spoiled teenager, and then in the final movie has scenes where he is "raging" like a madman. Could you imagine how amazing the final scenes of the last movie would have been if, after Anakin got his limbs chopped off, he just laid their, staring at Obi-Wan in pain, but not going "ahhhhhhh I hate you ahaahahhhhhhhhh I hate you hate hate ahhhhhhhhhhhh!"
I mean, think of the first scene of Darth Vader. Tell me this wouldn't have been a stronger scene and in-line with his character from the Original Trilogy. He is laying on the table, pain on his face but otherwise motionless. They put the suit on him, no fear in his eyes as they put on the mask because his mind is so lost. They bring up the table, and he asks about Padme, learning that she is dead. Without a sound his hand shakes and just like in the movie the droids around him get crushed, but he remains nearly motionless. Suddenly the forces die down and settle, his arm no longer shaking, and he steps out calmly, before turning and saying "What is your will, my master?"
Here is the thing about the added dialog and why it ruins much of the original scene for me.
The Original: Darth Vader is watching his son getting killed. He fights internally with himself about it, and then you can see it in his movements that he basically thought to himself "No, I am not going to let you do this." before walking over, picking up the Emperor, and throwing him into the pit almost like he was tossing aside a log or other obstruction. It was like he finally realized he needed to remove the burden from his shoulders, and with cold determination, he did it, to save his son, and deep down, himself. No panic, no stress, just a realization he made happen with the same cold determination that defined him.
The New Scene: Darth Vader is watching his son getting killed. He slowly starts to panic and gets more vocally stressed at his situation, until like a rubber band he snaps and jumps on the Emperor, throwing him over the edge. There is no more cold determination, there is no more undertone of him doing it his own salvation just as much as it was saving his son. He is just a man throwing up his arms in panic and doing the first thing that comes to his mind. An instinctual reaction rather then one of his own redeemed choice.
In other words, most of us saw Darth Vader as a calm, even calculating individual. The new movies make it seem like he bumbled into most of his situations on a whim. The new "Nooo!" is just another change to him making a choice on a random whim rather then seemingly coming up with the choice on his own.
#26
Null
Null
What I didn't like about the prequels was that he managed to put so much special effects in the movie that the important things - characters, dialogue, and plot - got crushed under a billion dollars of CGI. Actors need to interact with each other, and / or their environment. When everyone's in a big empty green room, it's hard to act. When half the people or objects your supposed to be interacting with aren't there, it's harder.
For example, the fight against the droids in Episode I: half the time you can tell they just said, "Okay, swing your saber around, we'll just paint in the droids later" - so you have droids more or less teleporting from where they had been in one cut, jumping to where they're conventionally being cut in half by a Jedi who's facing a different direction.
In the original trilogy, most of the props were physically present, and looked old. Occasionally ancient. That made you feel they had a history. The skiff battle in RotJ, for example - the alien thugs look menacing, the skiffs look battered, things are dark and danky and used. The Millennium Falcon is a bootlegger's car - modified and quirky but fast and full of surprises.
In the prequels, it's like watching the mother of all Shmup's - visually intense but no real connection to anything.
For example, the fight against the droids in Episode I: half the time you can tell they just said, "Okay, swing your saber around, we'll just paint in the droids later" - so you have droids more or less teleporting from where they had been in one cut, jumping to where they're conventionally being cut in half by a Jedi who's facing a different direction.
In the original trilogy, most of the props were physically present, and looked old. Occasionally ancient. That made you feel they had a history. The skiff battle in RotJ, for example - the alien thugs look menacing, the skiffs look battered, things are dark and danky and used. The Millennium Falcon is a bootlegger's car - modified and quirky but fast and full of surprises.
In the prequels, it's like watching the mother of all Shmup's - visually intense but no real connection to anything.
#27
Shegokigo
Shegokigo
@Scythrexx - See I view it completely differently. It makes him a more well rounded character and even shows us that even the most invincible creatures can be human too. Without the prequels, we would have always seen Vader as that inhuman (till the end) yet still one dimensional character alot of people liked "back-in-the-day".
Your version of what should have happened was not inline at ALL with a human being with a soul losing the last bit of his humanity. That's the great part about the ending of Ep3 AND what DOES make it meld so well with the beginning of Ep4. He's no longer bound by his "soul" or "feelings". They've been stripped out of him by all his loss and pain. He's become what the universe fears because of it. Without it, he would have been a weaker character all around.
Which lends to my argument against your "old version" being changed. The fact that he is a well rounded character now, and we have the "Noooo!" from Ep3 makes the addition of it in Ep6 so much stronger. He regains his humanity, his "soul" in that moment and redeems himself all the more than his "Silent/Stoic relization and action".
Your version of what should have happened was not inline at ALL with a human being with a soul losing the last bit of his humanity. That's the great part about the ending of Ep3 AND what DOES make it meld so well with the beginning of Ep4. He's no longer bound by his "soul" or "feelings". They've been stripped out of him by all his loss and pain. He's become what the universe fears because of it. Without it, he would have been a weaker character all around.
Which lends to my argument against your "old version" being changed. The fact that he is a well rounded character now, and we have the "Noooo!" from Ep3 makes the addition of it in Ep6 so much stronger. He regains his humanity, his "soul" in that moment and redeems himself all the more than his "Silent/Stoic relization and action".
#28
ScytheRexx
My version DOES show humanity, it shows how deep down he does hate, have rage, he does have pain, but he is broken, he was broken and he has no way out.
One can show humanity without making someone over emotional. Love, pain, hate, all those things don't have to be overt showings, since many of our understanding of those emotions are through things like body language. One can show the rise of Darth Vader with plenty of emotional value WITHOUT making it a showboat. Look at one of the most famous characters, Han Solo, and you will notice that his feelings, like his love relationship with Leia, are very subtle. He does not sing from the rafters his love or go on love walks under waterfalls, and that is why their relationship is one of the stronger ones shown in film. He cares for her, but not in the way that he goes hulk on everyone around him when she gets shot.
Darth Vader wanting to look into Luke's eyes without the mask was a perfect enough emotional bookend to them, they didn't need to add anything to the other scenes.
His silent/stoic realization is much more powerful because it's an internal emotion, it's a act of choice rather then an act of panic. I don't know about you, but if I was getting beat down by someone I would rather my father walk in and beat the guys ass down without a word, rather then scream out "stop it stop it stop it!" and tackle him. It shows more care, and that my father was openly thinking about what was happening to me, rather then going into "panic mode" because he does not know how to handle the situation. One is a strong individual, the other a "weak" one, and Darth Vader saving his son was supposed to be the "strongest" moment of a life that almost ended in subjugation and tragedy.
Be aware, I don't hate the prequels. I really don't care about them that much. What I care about is that Darth Vader was the reason I loved Star Wars, he was such a powerful villain with a well done ending that was both satisfying and fitting. I like going back to the original movies and seeing that person again, but the more and more they attempt to "overly emotionalize" him, either in the prequels or by adding dialog like they did in the Blu-ray, I slowly lose my respect for him as a character. He is becoming a joke.
ScytheRexx
I don't agree at all. Taking a character and flopping around his emotions does not make him well-rounded. A well rounded character is one you can understand and has basic flaws, but they have to be consistent. The kid in EP1 is not the same as the guy in EP2, who is somewhat different then EP3, and then once EP4 starts he is a completely different type of person. In most film that is considered a mess. Think of how Luke grew in the original trilogy, and you will notice he didn't change all that much between films. Same for Han Solo or Leia. They grew as people while retaining what people loves about them, that is why they are classic characters.@Scythrexx - See I view it completely differently. It makes him a more well rounded character and even shows us that even the most invincible creatures can be human too. Without the prequels, we would have always seen Vader as that inhuman (till the end) yet still one dimensional character alot of people liked "back-in-the-day".
Your version of what should have happened was not inline at ALL with a human being with a soul losing the last bit of his humanity. That's the great part about the ending of Ep3 AND what DOES make it meld so well with the beginning of Ep4. He's no longer bound by his "soul" or "feelings". They've been stripped out of him by all his loss and pain. He's become what the universe fears because of it. Without it, he would have been a weaker character all around.
My version DOES show humanity, it shows how deep down he does hate, have rage, he does have pain, but he is broken, he was broken and he has no way out.
One can show humanity without making someone over emotional. Love, pain, hate, all those things don't have to be overt showings, since many of our understanding of those emotions are through things like body language. One can show the rise of Darth Vader with plenty of emotional value WITHOUT making it a showboat. Look at one of the most famous characters, Han Solo, and you will notice that his feelings, like his love relationship with Leia, are very subtle. He does not sing from the rafters his love or go on love walks under waterfalls, and that is why their relationship is one of the stronger ones shown in film. He cares for her, but not in the way that he goes hulk on everyone around him when she gets shot.
Darth Vader wanting to look into Luke's eyes without the mask was a perfect enough emotional bookend to them, they didn't need to add anything to the other scenes.
We already know he regained his humanity and his "soul", that was always a given in the original version. He would not have saved his son if such was not the case. Once again, it is the subtelty of the event, the way its handled that not only shows he is regaining some of his love and humanity, but doing such at his own choice, coming to his own realization and still fitting in line with how he has handled himself for nearly 20 years since he turned.Which lends to my argument against your "old version" being changed. The fact that he is a well rounded character now, and we have the "Noooo!" from Ep3 makes the addition of it in Ep6 so much stronger. He regains his humanity, his "soul" in that moment and redeems himself all the more than his "Silent/Stoic relization and action".
His silent/stoic realization is much more powerful because it's an internal emotion, it's a act of choice rather then an act of panic. I don't know about you, but if I was getting beat down by someone I would rather my father walk in and beat the guys ass down without a word, rather then scream out "stop it stop it stop it!" and tackle him. It shows more care, and that my father was openly thinking about what was happening to me, rather then going into "panic mode" because he does not know how to handle the situation. One is a strong individual, the other a "weak" one, and Darth Vader saving his son was supposed to be the "strongest" moment of a life that almost ended in subjugation and tragedy.
Be aware, I don't hate the prequels. I really don't care about them that much. What I care about is that Darth Vader was the reason I loved Star Wars, he was such a powerful villain with a well done ending that was both satisfying and fitting. I like going back to the original movies and seeing that person again, but the more and more they attempt to "overly emotionalize" him, either in the prequels or by adding dialog like they did in the Blu-ray, I slowly lose my respect for him as a character. He is becoming a joke.
#29
Espy
Espy
My biggest problem with the prequels is that they are very bad* movies. That being said, I totally get why kids would enjoy them.
*please note the above is an opinion based on what I think makes a movie good: things like cohesive and coherent story, strong characters with their own arcs, vfx that serve the story rather than replace it, etc. I'm fine with people having a differing opinion, this is merely mine. Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.
*please note the above is an opinion based on what I think makes a movie good: things like cohesive and coherent story, strong characters with their own arcs, vfx that serve the story rather than replace it, etc. I'm fine with people having a differing opinion, this is merely mine. Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.
#30
Shegokigo
Shegokigo
@Scytherexx: The only honest response I can give you is that we see it very differently and I don't agree. *shrug* You saw all that in your viewing of the film, I see all that in the changes of the film/prequels.
@Espy: Much like some people consider the entire series as bad films and could say the very things you did against the Original Trilogy? Personally I think all 6 films are stronger as a whole, each with their own flaws and issues. Much like the PotC series.
@Espy: Much like some people consider the entire series as bad films and could say the very things you did against the Original Trilogy? Personally I think all 6 films are stronger as a whole, each with their own flaws and issues. Much like the PotC series.
#31
Espy
Now, that doesn't mean one has to like the OT or the characters or even feel like Lucas and his crew did the above things I mentioned in the OT. I feel very comfortable, from a strict film v film viewpoint, saying the OT are superior films in terms of storytelling and character. Amazing? No. Pretty basic in fact. Which is probably why they work so well.
Espy
Again, this is my opinion: No, they can't say much of that about the OT. The original trilogy, while indeed having some serious "B" movie quality stuff in it still retained strong story structure, good narrative and unique and strong character arcs. They had their cheese no doubt, but they have many of the things that make a good story good. The prequels are a mess of poor narrative and cardboard characters.@Espy: Much like some people consider the entire series as bad films and could say the very things you did against the Original Trilogy?
Now, that doesn't mean one has to like the OT or the characters or even feel like Lucas and his crew did the above things I mentioned in the OT. I feel very comfortable, from a strict film v film viewpoint, saying the OT are superior films in terms of storytelling and character. Amazing? No. Pretty basic in fact. Which is probably why they work so well.
#32
ThatNickGuy
ThatNickGuy
Honestly, the argument about changes boils down to two examples for me:
1) Han shot first - This is pretty much the cornerstone argument of most of these changes. It's not just how sloppy the editing on it comes across. Or how they tried to "fix" it by having Han's head magically teleport to the side to "dodge" the show in further revisions.
No, it's that, like the new "NOOOO!", it changes the character. Han was, in a lot of ways, a very bad person when we first meet him. He only cared about himself and was an overall jerk. But he redeems himself in the end, when he rescues Luke. The thing is, too, is that Han's character would be the type that would shoot first. He's not a nice guy and he'll do what he can to get out of trouble. Plus, it showed how totally underhanded he was: the whole time Greedo had a gun aimed at him, Han did, too! The dude was like a space Batman.
Personally, I didn't mind most of the changes. The really obvious ones, like the CGI characters and such added into the backgrounds or extensions of planets or locations to further give us an idea of the area. Since I loved singing the song, I missed the Ewok scene at the end of Jedi, but I do appreciate how the change feels more universal instead of just a celebration on Endor. I'm not a fan of Hayden suddenly showing up as a ghost, but for the sake of synchronicity, I understand and don't mind.
One scene that I'm absolutely not a fan of is having Jaba show up in a New Hope. It takes away his more mythic status to be mentioned and then finally appear in the third.
But these changes, regardless of how minor, make incredible changes to already great scenes. The "noooo!" is completely unnecessary. Changing whether Han shot first is unnecessary. They might be minor, tiny changes, but they were amazing, iconic scenes aleady. There was no need to change or add to them.
Oh, and as for my second point...
2) Changing guns to flashlights in E.T.
Nuff. Fucking. Said.
1) Han shot first - This is pretty much the cornerstone argument of most of these changes. It's not just how sloppy the editing on it comes across. Or how they tried to "fix" it by having Han's head magically teleport to the side to "dodge" the show in further revisions.
No, it's that, like the new "NOOOO!", it changes the character. Han was, in a lot of ways, a very bad person when we first meet him. He only cared about himself and was an overall jerk. But he redeems himself in the end, when he rescues Luke. The thing is, too, is that Han's character would be the type that would shoot first. He's not a nice guy and he'll do what he can to get out of trouble. Plus, it showed how totally underhanded he was: the whole time Greedo had a gun aimed at him, Han did, too! The dude was like a space Batman.
Personally, I didn't mind most of the changes. The really obvious ones, like the CGI characters and such added into the backgrounds or extensions of planets or locations to further give us an idea of the area. Since I loved singing the song, I missed the Ewok scene at the end of Jedi, but I do appreciate how the change feels more universal instead of just a celebration on Endor. I'm not a fan of Hayden suddenly showing up as a ghost, but for the sake of synchronicity, I understand and don't mind.
One scene that I'm absolutely not a fan of is having Jaba show up in a New Hope. It takes away his more mythic status to be mentioned and then finally appear in the third.
But these changes, regardless of how minor, make incredible changes to already great scenes. The "noooo!" is completely unnecessary. Changing whether Han shot first is unnecessary. They might be minor, tiny changes, but they were amazing, iconic scenes aleady. There was no need to change or add to them.
Oh, and as for my second point...
2) Changing guns to flashlights in E.T.
Nuff. Fucking. Said.
#33
Espy
That being said there are some things I don't mind the changes on in the more recent updates of the OT.
Espy
And thats a great point about later day Lucas. He seems to have lost the idea that you don't have to SHOW everything. Every scene doesn't have to be just packed full of as much cool stuff as it could be. Sometimes less is more. Like letting DV's body language "shout" the "No" instead of his voice. Minor but it's the difference between a great storyteller and a mediocre one in my opinion.One scene that I'm absolutely not a fan of is having Jaba show up in a New Hope. It takes away his more mythic status to be mentioned and then finally appear in the third.
That being said there are some things I don't mind the changes on in the more recent updates of the OT.
#34
Frankie Williamson
Frankie Williamson
I kind of get why Lucas is changing stuff like Vader's silence and the like. I don't like the changes, but I see why he's doing it, crippling the original films to be more like the prequels. What I don't get are the baffling insane changes that make one believe he's just lost his fucking mind like making Obi-Wan's entrance in the original movie make a sound like a kid with Down's Syndrome excited about a new toy or adding extra rocks in front of R2-D2 so that it makes 0 logical sense how he managed to hide there in the first place.
#35
Hailey Knight
I doubt Lucas intends for that to be definitive, which will mean another set of Blu-Rays down the line where this transfer problem is corrected.
I don't know if it matters to you or not, but I thought you should know.
Hailey Knight
I'm not going to get into all the arguing over the quality of the films' content, but I will let you know, Shego, that the transfer being used for all but Episode 1 is at 1080 and I can't remember what it's called, but there is a Higher Quality that is then displayed in 1080 on your usual HD. Rather than starting with that Higher Quality, it'll be starting from 1080, so it's going to look worse than your other Blu-Rays except for Episode 1.Am I really the only one that the changes he's made aren't enough to deter me from finally having all 6 films on BLU-RAY on my HDLEDLCD TV?
I doubt Lucas intends for that to be definitive, which will mean another set of Blu-Rays down the line where this transfer problem is corrected.
I don't know if it matters to you or not, but I thought you should know.
#36
ThatNickGuy
ThatNickGuy
Oh for...! Now he's gone too far!
#37
Chibibar
Chibibar
LOL...... this is a good read
http://savestarwars.com/lucasspeechagainstspecialedition.html
You know who was the greatest opponent to movie changes?? The Young George Lucas!!!
http://savestarwars.com/lucasspeechagainstspecialedition.html
You know who was the greatest opponent to movie changes?? The Young George Lucas!!!
#38
Null
Null
The one that bothers me, oddly, is the door to Jabba's Palace, replacing it with enormous CGI. Instead of thinking, "Wow, Jabba's fortress looks ancient, run-down, and spooky," I see that and think, "This looks like a cutscene from God of War."
#39
Espy
Really the whole thing goes back to Jaws.
Jaws you say? Yes. Jaws, or at least the principle learned from Jaws. See, they didn't have a ton of money when they made Jaws. So they had these shark puppets that were... mediocre. They had lots of issues with them. They couldn't just CGI in some SUPERAWESOME shark, they had to make do with what they had. It made them work even harder to make the whole thing work. And it worked out for the best. We ended up with a movie that focused on tension rather than OMGSUPERCOOLCGITHING. Or in other words: Less is more.
That idea holds true for Lucas. When he has limitations he creates some great stuff. When he has no limitation we end up with some things that have a lot of flash but not a lot of substance because he doesn't really have to focus on the substance to make it work.
Espy
Man, I loved that old fortress. So cool looking.The one that bothers me, oddly, is the door to Jabba's Palace, replacing it with enormous CGI. Instead of thinking, "Wow, Jabba's fortress looks ancient, run-down, and spooky," I see that and think, "This looks like a cutscene from God of War."
Really the whole thing goes back to Jaws.
Jaws you say? Yes. Jaws, or at least the principle learned from Jaws. See, they didn't have a ton of money when they made Jaws. So they had these shark puppets that were... mediocre. They had lots of issues with them. They couldn't just CGI in some SUPERAWESOME shark, they had to make do with what they had. It made them work even harder to make the whole thing work. And it worked out for the best. We ended up with a movie that focused on tension rather than OMGSUPERCOOLCGITHING. Or in other words: Less is more.
That idea holds true for Lucas. When he has limitations he creates some great stuff. When he has no limitation we end up with some things that have a lot of flash but not a lot of substance because he doesn't really have to focus on the substance to make it work.
#40
Philosopher B.
Philosopher B.
The reason the prequels get so much hate is they were lazily directed, clunkily written, and blandly (at best, except for maybe Ian Mcdiarmid) acted. Yeah, the originals weren't amazing in the acting category either, but you gave a shit as to what was onscreen, as opposed to the prequels' CGI vomit. Also, there was no excuse to squander a cast with that many talented members. I could go on for a bit, but few things I'd say can't be found in the Red Letter Media reviews.
As for Lucas' fucking about, I initially didn't believe the supposed changes were real, due to that krayt-dragon noise being one of the silliest goddamn things I have ever heard. I can't believe anyone could listen to that and honestly think it improved anything, therefore I am forced to conclude Lucas does these things simply to get off, wiping up the jizzum and nerd tears with hundred-dollar bills.
As for Lucas' fucking about, I initially didn't believe the supposed changes were real, due to that krayt-dragon noise being one of the silliest goddamn things I have ever heard. I can't believe anyone could listen to that and honestly think it improved anything, therefore I am forced to conclude Lucas does these things simply to get off, wiping up the jizzum and nerd tears with hundred-dollar bills.
#41
Just Me
Just Me
My greatest hate for the prequels simply comes from what Lucas did to the great enigmatic character of Boba Fett.
Not everything has to be explained. Not everyone needs a detailed background (an 3 comic books series, a Tv special and 3 novels plus 10 action figure variants).
Boba was the ultimate cool badass. Now all I can think when I see him in the originals is "Hello Boba, is your father here?".
Come to think about it, it's the same with Vader...
Not everything has to be explained. Not everyone needs a detailed background (an 3 comic books series, a Tv special and 3 novels plus 10 action figure variants).
Boba was the ultimate cool badass. Now all I can think when I see him in the originals is "Hello Boba, is your father here?".
Come to think about it, it's the same with Vader...
#42
Philosopher B.
Philosopher B.
When I was just a lad (looking for my true vocation), I used to day-dream about Darth Vader traipsing about on different planets, hunting down grizzled Jedi and having it out with them, man with no name style. A prequel would be badass, I reasoned. You could show all kinds of cool shit.
What I got was angels, Jar-Jar, trade embargoes, and a lot of walking through corridors and sitting about on couches contrasted with OMG CGI EVERYWHERE battles.
What I got was angels, Jar-Jar, trade embargoes, and a lot of walking through corridors and sitting about on couches contrasted with OMG CGI EVERYWHERE battles.
#43
Null
Null
The biggest problem, as has often been said, is that there was no one in a position to say, "I'm sorry George, but that's just not a good idea, and we're not doing it that way."
Likewise, you got this idea in the OT that the Jedi and Republic were good things, things worth saving or bringing back. In the Prequels, you find out that the Republic was a corrupt useless failing government; the Rebellion was more or less started by autocrats and disenfranchised politicians who wanted to return to power, not the common people of the galaxy; and that the Jedi were idiots who deserved what they got.
"According to our prophecies, this boy is literally the most important person in the galaxy. He sure seems to miss his mom, wasn't she a slave on some crime-riddled desert hellhole? Since he's not like the infants we usually take from their families, he's actually got a sense of attachment to her, which we should probably try and compensate for." "Eh, he'll get over it, it's really not worth the effort of sending someone to buy her freedom and start her off on a less hostile world. Still, he's going to need a wise hand to guide him, since he holds the fate of the galaxy as his destiny." "Well, how about the teenager that came in with him? You know, the kid who was just barely promoted to Knight after his first mission, and has absolutely no experience training anyone?" "Yeah, that should be good enough." "I don't see how any of this could possibly go wrong."
Likewise, you got this idea in the OT that the Jedi and Republic were good things, things worth saving or bringing back. In the Prequels, you find out that the Republic was a corrupt useless failing government; the Rebellion was more or less started by autocrats and disenfranchised politicians who wanted to return to power, not the common people of the galaxy; and that the Jedi were idiots who deserved what they got.
"According to our prophecies, this boy is literally the most important person in the galaxy. He sure seems to miss his mom, wasn't she a slave on some crime-riddled desert hellhole? Since he's not like the infants we usually take from their families, he's actually got a sense of attachment to her, which we should probably try and compensate for." "Eh, he'll get over it, it's really not worth the effort of sending someone to buy her freedom and start her off on a less hostile world. Still, he's going to need a wise hand to guide him, since he holds the fate of the galaxy as his destiny." "Well, how about the teenager that came in with him? You know, the kid who was just barely promoted to Knight after his first mission, and has absolutely no experience training anyone?" "Yeah, that should be good enough." "I don't see how any of this could possibly go wrong."
#44
Espy
Espy
So very much this.When I was just a lad (looking for my true vocation), I used to day-dream about Darth Vader traipsing about on different planets, hunting down grizzled Jedi and having it out with them, man with no name style. A prequel would be badass, I reasoned. You could show all kinds of cool shit.
What I got was angels, Jar-Jar, trade embargoes, and a lot of walking through corridors and sitting about on couches contrasted with OMG CGI EVERYWHERE battles.
#45
fade
fade
And honestly, that kind of sums up my point, too. The prequels were doomed to look worse subjectively to fans. The problem with analyzing what's wrong with the prequels is many-fold. My point isn't that there isn't anything wrong with the prequels. Oh, most definitely there is. My dislikes are actually pretty much the same as everyone else's in this case. My problem is that I just don't think they lag so far behind the original trilogy. I could go through the same exercise of pointing out plot stupidity in the OT, too. I guess my point is that that was everyone's first inclination with the prequels. They were doomed to be picked apart. A lot of arguments against the prequels are biased heavily as "here's what's wrong with the prequels, but what's right with the OT", which is kind of apples and oranges in a way.
#46
Shegokigo
Shegokigo
Took the words I was looking for, right out of my mouth fade.
That's why as kids so many people were in awe of the OT, while today's children find them boring, yet find the NT as exciting and prefer them.
It's really a generational thing and Lucas is pretty successfully finding a way to meld the two generations together.
That's why as kids so many people were in awe of the OT, while today's children find them boring, yet find the NT as exciting and prefer them.
It's really a generational thing and Lucas is pretty successfully finding a way to meld the two generations together.
#47
Espy
Espy
You know, the discussion is kind of pointless when any real criticism based on narrative, story and character is dismissed as "oh you guys are so subjective and you just rely on nostalgia, etc".
But, eh, who really cares I suppose. Enjoy the prequels if they rock your boat the right way
But, eh, who really cares I suppose. Enjoy the prequels if they rock your boat the right way
#48
fade
fade
That's not what I said at all if you're talking about me. I haven't dismissed a thing. In fact, as I've explicitly said I agree with the objective criticisms. What I don't agree with are what I feel are subjective ones. The discussion also becomes pointless if no one will acknowledge prejudice either. It kind of feels like my argument is being, well, waved off as a wave off. My point is, sure, there's a lack of character arc for most of the characters in the prequels, but really, there is in the OT, too. What do we have in the OT? A couple of tired, done hero tracts of several varieties. Better than the prequels? Certainly, but not exactly stellar, if you want to be objective.
EDIT: In fact, objectivity was what I was asking for when I said that saying "Prequels are bad because X and OT is good because Y" isn't a valid, objective comparison. It's inherently biased, and inherently biasing.
EDIT: In fact, objectivity was what I was asking for when I said that saying "Prequels are bad because X and OT is good because Y" isn't a valid, objective comparison. It's inherently biased, and inherently biasing.
#49
Null
Null
But the difference is that in the OT, the actors work well together. You accept the aliens as being part of the environment, even if more than a few of them are objectively silly, because for the most part, they don't break your suspension of disbelief. The plot is general enough that you can get away with more. Moreover, even if the characters are standard stock characters, they meshed well. You believe in Han and Leia because they have chemistry - he's an independent loner and she's strong-willed and smart enough to challenge him; his intentional lack of courtesy, facade of disinterest, and improvised heroics intruige her. It works.
On the other hand, the actors in the prequels generally have very little chemistry. Obi-Wan always looks vaguely annoyed with Anakin, and every discussion devolves into "You were right," "No, you were also kind of right." Anakin acts like a creepy stalker to Padme, and she seems dully surprised at his every action. Then he has a murderously psychotic episode resulting from grief, and that apparently equals love. Then there's the aliens from the stupid bucket. Sure, some of the OT aliens look goofy, but none of them look as stupid as the Courderoy Faces (Utapau?), Two-headed Dipshit Announcer, Blue Burrito (one of the Senators), Conehead (Ki-Adi-Mundi), or Pinhead (the Jedi with the long neck and tiny head).
The characterization may be shallow in the OT, but the actors were good enough or the direction was good enough to make it live. In the prequels, it's worse, and if the characters are boring, the adventure falls flat.
On the other hand, the actors in the prequels generally have very little chemistry. Obi-Wan always looks vaguely annoyed with Anakin, and every discussion devolves into "You were right," "No, you were also kind of right." Anakin acts like a creepy stalker to Padme, and she seems dully surprised at his every action. Then he has a murderously psychotic episode resulting from grief, and that apparently equals love. Then there's the aliens from the stupid bucket. Sure, some of the OT aliens look goofy, but none of them look as stupid as the Courderoy Faces (Utapau?), Two-headed Dipshit Announcer, Blue Burrito (one of the Senators), Conehead (Ki-Adi-Mundi), or Pinhead (the Jedi with the long neck and tiny head).
The characterization may be shallow in the OT, but the actors were good enough or the direction was good enough to make it live. In the prequels, it's worse, and if the characters are boring, the adventure falls flat.
#50
checkeredhat
checkeredhat
Also, lets hide the most dangerous man in the universe's twin children with his family, and one of the leaders of the rebellion he hopes to crush. He'll never find them there!The biggest problem, as has often been said, is that there was no one in a position to say, "I'm sorry George, but that's just not a good idea, and we're not doing it that way."
Likewise, you got this idea in the OT that the Jedi and Republic were good things, things worth saving or bringing back. In the Prequels, you find out that the Republic was a corrupt useless failing government; the Rebellion was more or less started by autocrats and disenfranchised politicians who wanted to return to power, not the common people of the galaxy; and that the Jedi were idiots who deserved what they got.
"According to our prophecies, this boy is literally the most important person in the galaxy. He sure seems to miss his mom, wasn't she a slave on some crime-riddled desert hellhole? Since he's not like the infants we usually take from their families, he's actually got a sense of attachment to her, which we should probably try and compensate for." "Eh, he'll get over it, it's really not worth the effort of sending someone to buy her freedom and start her off on a less hostile world. Still, he's going to need a wise hand to guide him, since he holds the fate of the galaxy as his destiny." "Well, how about the teenager that came in with him? You know, the kid who was just barely promoted to Knight after his first mission, and has absolutely no experience training anyone?" "Yeah, that should be good enough." "I don't see how any of this could possibly go wrong."
#51
Dei
Dei
I like the story behind the Prequels. I hate the bad acting and the horrific dialogue from Anakin. (Holy fuck do I want to drown the 2nd prequel in a vat of acid.)
#52
Hailey Knight
Hailey Knight
I'll say Attack of the Clones is not only the worst of the movies in execution, but also in concept. We've been over the bad acting, action scenes with no plot significance, confused plot, bad love story, etc. in the past, but my next big gripe is this movie happens before the actual war--it's a boring build-up to a war, not even a politically intriguing or emotional build-up like in Final Fantasy Tactics or A Game of Thrones, but just a series of non-events leading to a war being secretly engineered. If it weren't for the cartoon, you'd see none of it--the next movie begins with the end of that war. I don't see why Lucas felt people would want to see the boring nothing happening rather than the conflict that actually led to the downfall of the Republic. That's just stupid.
And then when someone does show those events, very well, he brings about a hammy, horrible series of his own to show them his way. Which is what he should've done with the second prequel in the fucking first place.
And then when someone does show those events, very well, he brings about a hammy, horrible series of his own to show them his way. Which is what he should've done with the second prequel in the fucking first place.
#53
Steve
Steve
http://www.swtor.com/media/trailers/return
The 6 minute trailer (which I'm sure you all have seen before) is head and shoulders better than Episodes 1-3. This is how you make a Star Wars movie.
The 6 minute trailer (which I'm sure you all have seen before) is head and shoulders better than Episodes 1-3. This is how you make a Star Wars movie.
#54
Hailey Knight
Although it does help to highlight one of the prequel's bigger flubs: there was no Han Solo-type of skeptic, grounding character.
Hailey Knight
It's an improvement, but I still felt there was a bit of dumb shit in it too.http://www.swtor.com/media/trailers/return
The 6 minute trailer (which I'm sure you all have seen before) is head and shoulders better than Episodes 1-3. This is how you make a Star Wars movie.
Although it does help to highlight one of the prequel's bigger flubs: there was no Han Solo-type of skeptic, grounding character.
#55
ThatNickGuy
ThatNickGuy
Yep, the prequel characters had the same thing that Lucas lacked: someone to call on their bullshit.
#56
Philosopher B.
Philosopher B.
#57
Cajungal
^I actually do like learning where the stuff I love comes from, but man, this bit cracks me up.
Cajungal
^I actually do like learning where the stuff I love comes from, but man, this bit cracks me up.
#58
Covar
Covar
Boba Fett's origin is much better in the EU.
#59
Shegokigo
Shegokigo
Fixed for better coverage.Everyone's story is much better in the EU.
#60
Biannoshufu
Biannoshufu
Shego and fade agree and once again, I will politely sit on the other side of the argument. I pretty much think a fan should recut the prequels into a single film. Because really.
#61
Hailey Knight
Hailey Knight
I wonder how that would work, consider the space of time between episodes.Shego and fade agree and once again, I will politely sit on the other side of the argument. I pretty much think a fan should recut the prequels into a single film. Because really.
#62
Biannoshufu
Biannoshufu
a long passage of time is not a novel thing, I think in the right directors hands, it could work.I wonder how that would work, consider the space of time between episodes.
#63
Hailey Knight
Hailey Knight
Also between I and II there's a recap sort of thing; between II and III, you're missing the whole war.a long passage of time is not a novel thing, I think in the right directors hands, it could work.
#64
Biannoshufu
Biannoshufu
I really think most of I is useless, and that any film would be mostly a blend of II and III
#65
Hailey Knight
Hailey Knight
True.I really think most of I is useless, and that any film would be mostly a blend of II and III
#66
Null
C-3PO shouldn't have been in the prequels at all.
Compare that to Episode IV: it establishes the characters and their roles, it shows the stakes of the conflict - destroying a wealthy, populated planet as a demonstration of Imperial might, and it uses great action scenes to further the story or underscore the characters' nature. The only "unnecessary" scene in Episode IV is the trash compactor scene, and it's thankfully brief.
Null
Actually, I think that's the biggest problem with the prequels - massive amounts of them are spent on characters or events that ultimately are irrelevant, especially in Episode I. The largest amount of time is spent following Liam Neeson, who doesn't really do much except be a kind of racist asshole and stubborn prick; trade federation baddies who were incompetent cowards; and Darth Maul, who looked really badass for all 7 and 1/2 minutes he was in the movie. Anakin being an immaculately conceived, messianic figure? Terrible. And oh yeah, a half-hour of podrace, where the plot says, "I'm going to pick up a six pack and some smokes, here's some speedy CGI to watch while I'm gone."True.
C-3PO shouldn't have been in the prequels at all.
Compare that to Episode IV: it establishes the characters and their roles, it shows the stakes of the conflict - destroying a wealthy, populated planet as a demonstration of Imperial might, and it uses great action scenes to further the story or underscore the characters' nature. The only "unnecessary" scene in Episode IV is the trash compactor scene, and it's thankfully brief.
#67
fade
fade
I thought Qui-Gon was crucial. Even when I was a kid, I read Yoda and especially Obi-Wan as basically telling Luke to be a gray sort of Jedi. Lines in the OT like, "Your emotions do you credit" wouldn't have flown in the old Jedi Order. Luke brought balance to the Force because he didn't walk the extreme path of (old) Jedi or Sith. I loved when Qui-Gon showed up, because he was almost a confirmation of this theory. He was a rebel within the order. He wasn't afraid to tell the rest of the Council to fuck off. His charges, Obi-Wan and Anakin, clearly very powerful Force users slip to either side of the central path he espouses, and then Luke gets it right. He brings balance to the Force, and in a way, centers Obi-Wan and Anakin in the process, too.
#68
Frankie Williamson
Frankie Williamson
#69
Shegokigo
Shegokigo
Perfectly said. Couldn't agree more. Would like it twice if I could.I thought Qui-Gon was crucial. Even when I was a kid, I read Yoda and especially Obi-Wan as basically telling Luke to be a gray sort of Jedi. Lines in the OT like, "Your emotions do you credit" wouldn't have flown in the old Jedi Order. Luke brought balance to the Force because he didn't walk the extreme path of (old) Jedi or Sith. I loved when Qui-Gon showed up, because he was almost a confirmation of this theory. He was a rebel within the order. He wasn't afraid to tell the rest of the Council to fuck off. His charges, Obi-Wan and Anakin, clearly very powerful Force users slip to either side of the central path he espouses, and then Luke gets it right. He brings balance to the Force, and in a way, centers Obi-Wan and Anakin in the process, too.
#70
Biannoshufu
Biannoshufu
Qui Gon was wasted throughout much of the film, and his best scenes could be whittled down to a five minute dialogue at the Jedi Temple and subsequent death scenes if that. See "Watto." He was inserted into the film to schlim schlam the Force through a handwavium rectum, gather the sympathy of the kiddies seeing the film for Jar Jar, and then surprise, he's killed at the end to give the film some emotional heft. It's like George used the spinning wheel of plot to write it. Maybe Velcro darts.
#71
fade
fade
Yeah, no one's going to argue that midichlorians weren't stupid. That was definitely a crowning moment of dumb.
To be clear, though I've said it already, I'm not really trying to take the role of "prequel apologist". There were many, many bad things about the prequels. My point here, aside from trying to be an "OT realist" is that there are diamonds in the poo that I'd like to point out, and outside of analysis, I think a lot of the things that really got us into the series are still there in some form. Even if it's a mutated form.
To be clear, though I've said it already, I'm not really trying to take the role of "prequel apologist". There were many, many bad things about the prequels. My point here, aside from trying to be an "OT realist" is that there are diamonds in the poo that I'd like to point out, and outside of analysis, I think a lot of the things that really got us into the series are still there in some form. Even if it's a mutated form.
#72
checkeredhat
checkeredhat
I couldn't possibly disagree that the prequels were judged against the original trilogy. Obvsiously they were and that is a tremendous handicap right off the bat.
But they are awful on their own. Not the absolute worst movies I've ever seen. Probably not even in the top ten (bottom ten?), but certainly bad.
The fact that they're "Star Wars" movies is the only reason anyone still complains about them, if they weren't, they simply would have faded out of existence because nobody would have even bothered to see them.
Added at: 22:32
But they are awful on their own. Not the absolute worst movies I've ever seen. Probably not even in the top ten (bottom ten?), but certainly bad.
The fact that they're "Star Wars" movies is the only reason anyone still complains about them, if they weren't, they simply would have faded out of existence because nobody would have even bothered to see them.
Added at: 22:32
That is a fantastic way to put it. And also true. No matter how bad the rest of the movies, I could definitely watch almost all of the lightsabre battles again and be overjoyed (Except for the Yoda one. What were they thinking?)Yeah, no one's going to argue that midichlorians weren't stupid. That was definitely a crowning moment of dumb.
To be clear, though I've said it already, I'm not really trying to take the role of "prequel apologist". There were many, many bad things about the prequels. My point here, aside from trying to be an "OT realist" is that there are diamonds in the poo that I'd like to point out, and outside of analysis, I think a lot of the things that really got us into the series are still there in some form. Even if it's a mutated form.
#73
Hailey Knight
Hailey Knight
That Yoda one is a real groaner. It's like he and Dooku are trying to hit each other's light sabers rather than each other.
#74
checkeredhat
checkeredhat
My issue is that its just really bland, weightless, sloppy CGI. Sure, nice texturing, nice lighting, but the animation is weightless, lifeless, and just so jarringly out of step with the way he moved before that you can't overlook it.
#75
Steve
Steve
I thought Qui-Gon should have died in the 2nd episode instead of the first. There could have been focus on the relationship between him and Anakin as a father/son type role for two movies. His death would have had more impact on Anakin this way and could have set up some resentment between him and Obi-Wan with Obi being the new trainer. Having his death at the hands of Darth Maul would set up a moment to push Anakin's rage. In episode 3 Darth Maul should have died at the hands of Anakin as he begins his decent to the dark side.
I also felt like Anakin's slave life should have been horrendous. As it was he had a pretty good life being a slave. He should have been abused, beaten and felt like he was in a hopeless situation. When his mother negotiates his freedom he's torn because he knows the hell that she'll be left to. Instead we get him basically saying "smell ya later, mom" and didn't seem too upset to leave her behind. Then it took him a decade to decide to go back and check on her?
I do agree with checkeredhat's statement that if it wasn't for the Star Wars in the title nobody would even remember these movies.
I also felt like Anakin's slave life should have been horrendous. As it was he had a pretty good life being a slave. He should have been abused, beaten and felt like he was in a hopeless situation. When his mother negotiates his freedom he's torn because he knows the hell that she'll be left to. Instead we get him basically saying "smell ya later, mom" and didn't seem too upset to leave her behind. Then it took him a decade to decide to go back and check on her?
I do agree with checkeredhat's statement that if it wasn't for the Star Wars in the title nobody would even remember these movies.
#76
checkeredhat
checkeredhat
Honestly, I don't think there was a reason to do a prequel trilogy at all. You could argue that prequels nemefitted the whole story, fine. Whatever. But a trilogy of them? The story they were telling could have been paced better if it were one or two movies long instead. There is a lot of fat to trim between the first and second films. And even still, they'd be telling the wrong part of the story anyway. It really isn't important or interesting to see how the Empire formed, its Vader's story we should have been getting. Yes they intersect, and the Empire is part of Vader's character. But the prequels spend far more time with the formation of the empire, when, as someone mentioned, they should have focused on the galaxy at war, and how that shaped Vader. If a third movie was done at all, it should have been entirely about the period between Revenge of the Sith and A New Hope, the period where Vader goes around hunting Jedis and being a bad ass, while Obi Wan and Yoda do what they can to remain hidden while advising the rebellion.
#77
sixpackshaker
sixpackshaker
Of course Plinkett the serial killer covers why the prequels were terrible better than anyone...
http://redlettermedia.com/plinkett/star-wars/
http://redlettermedia.com/plinkett/star-wars/
#78
fade
fade
True, but to be fair, that really describes Hollywood swordfighting in general.That Yoda one is a real groaner. It's like he and Dooku are trying to hit each other's light sabers rather than each other.
#79
Shegokigo
Shegokigo
Exact same thing can be said about all the lightsaber fighting in the original trilogy as well.
The Darth Maul lightsaber fight is the only one in the entire series that actually felt like a fight for someone's life.
The Darth Maul lightsaber fight is the only one in the entire series that actually felt like a fight for someone's life.
#80
Hailey Knight
Hailey Knight
True, but I think it's clearer here because it'd be so damn easy for Yoda to just slash off Dooku's ankles.True, but to be fair, that really describes Hollywood swordfighting in general.
#81
AshburnerX
AshburnerX
I tend to forgive the Anakin Vs Obi Wan fight because the actual light saber battle was almost incidental to the philosophical battle they were having, but the rest of them? Yeah... they kinda sucked.Exact same thing can be said about all the lightsaber fighting in the original trilogy as well.
The Darth Maul lightsaber fight is the only one in the entire series that actually felt like a fight for someone's life.
#82
checkeredhat
checkeredhat
Well, I liked the lightsabre battles.
#83
ScytheRexx
ScytheRexx
I liked most of them too. I prefer the originals because the fights actually felt like sword fights, while the prequels felt way to choreographed. However, they made up for that with having them much more high energy in the prequals, which made them enjoyable to watch regardless.
#84
Mathias
Mathias
The funny part in this thread is where people think Lucas gives two shits about the story.
Lucas cars about the toys and the $$$
Lucas cars about the toys and the $$$
#85
Hailey Knight
Hailey Knight
I think on some level Lucas cares (not that he has any skill with it) because he was very clear about certain moments he wanted, and feelings that were supposed to be going on the prequels, and he keeps tweaking the OT to suit his vision when he could just dole out different extras, or give people the unedited OT remastered and cleaned up.The funny part in this thread is where people think Lucas gives two shits about the story.
Lucas cars about the toys and the $$$
#86
Ravenpoe
Hahaha, no, that won't happen. That's his ace in the hole, for when he's milked as much money out of it that he can.
Ravenpoe
Ior give people the unedited OT remastered and cleaned up.
Hahaha, no, that won't happen. That's his ace in the hole, for when he's milked as much money out of it that he can.
#87
Espy
It will be a pack of Star Wars VCR tapes found in an abandoned JCPenny stockroom by Lucas
It will cost 8,000 dollars.
Espy
True. Someday he will put out, the Super Special Ultimate Perfection Complete Edition Original Trilogy.Hahaha, no, that won't happen. That's his ace in the hole, for when he's milked as much money out of it that he can.
It will be a pack of Star Wars VCR tapes found in an abandoned JCPenny stockroom by Lucas
It will cost 8,000 dollars.
#88
DarkAudit
DarkAudit
I'd heard somewhere the original negatives don't exist anymore, only the re-re-re-fucked with special edition versions.
#89
Espy
Espy
No idea, but if it looks half as good as the BR new version I'm alright with it. Hell, I would watch those old VCR versions if I had themI'd heard somewhere the original negatives don't exist anymore, only the re-re-re-fucked with special edition versions.
#90
sixpackshaker
sixpackshaker
No, he remastered the originals back when he started working on the prequels. That is why there is such good copies floating around on VHS and Laser-disc from the mid 90's.I'd heard somewhere the original negatives don't exist anymore, only the re-re-re-fucked with special edition versions.
#91
fade
fade
"Videodiscs?!? You can't record on them, and they're not compatible with my system!"
#92
sixpackshaker
sixpackshaker
Just saying there is a pristine copy of the originals laying around Skywalker Ranch.
#93
checkeredhat
checkeredhat
Hahahahaha.... laser discs.
#94
fade
fade
My dad swore by the RCA Videodisc. We had like 4 players over the years. To this day, people look at me like I have two heads when I ask them about it.
Me: "Do you remember videodiscs?"
Them: "You mean Laserdiscs?"
Me: "No, the vinyl ones that looked like records. But you couldn't see that most of the time. They were in a big flat cartridge that you inserted into the player. You pulled the cartridge back out, and it left the disc in the player. You could only see the record if you forced it out."
Them: "That didn't exist."
Me: "No seriously. My dad still has a player and a massive library of movies that he picked up from a video store when they stopped carrying them."
Them: "Nope."
I think he thinks it's going to make a comeback.
Me: "Do you remember videodiscs?"
Them: "You mean Laserdiscs?"
Me: "No, the vinyl ones that looked like records. But you couldn't see that most of the time. They were in a big flat cartridge that you inserted into the player. You pulled the cartridge back out, and it left the disc in the player. You could only see the record if you forced it out."
Them: "That didn't exist."
Me: "No seriously. My dad still has a player and a massive library of movies that he picked up from a video store when they stopped carrying them."
Them: "Nope."
I think he thinks it's going to make a comeback.
#95
Hailey Knight
Hailey Knight
They exist, but Lucas has them all. Someone here posted a good article about it and the cost that cleaning would entail.I'd heard somewhere the original negatives don't exist anymore, only the re-re-re-fucked with special edition versions.
#96
figmentPez
figmentPez
Another change to the Blu-ray release has been discovered:
#97
Shegokigo
Shegokigo
Can't see video at work, tldr version?
#98
Ravenpoe
Ravenpoe
The death star audio console shot first.Can't see video at work, tldr version?
#99
Hailey Knight
...Ninja'd.
Hailey Knight
Laser blasts shoot from the control panel at Han just before he shoots it. "Control Panel Shoots First."Can't see video at work, tldr version?
...Ninja'd.
#100
Shegokigo
Shegokigo
By a few seconds too Escu. It still counts. 
#101
Allen who is Quiet
Allen who is Quiet
More things shoot first
#102
Hailey Knight
Hailey Knight
Weird; the video freezes for me just before Alderaan shoots.
#103
Allen who is Quiet
Allen who is Quiet
Strange. Well, here's a gif
#104
@Li3n
@Li3n
Well at least someone regrets stupid changes: http://www.iwatchstuff.com/2011/09/spielberg-repents-for-replacing-those-et.php
George Lucas's Star Wars alteration is] a little hot topic, isn't it? (laughter) Let me put it this way. George does what he does cause there is only one George Lucas and thank god for that. He's the greatest person I've ever worked with as a filmmaker and collaborator, he is a conceptual genius, he puts together these amazing stories and he is great at what he does. And my feeling is he can do whatever he wants with his movies because those are his movies. We wouldn't have been raised with Star Wars or Indiana Jones had it not been for George, so what he does with his films is great. Speaking for myself, you know, I tried this once and I lived to regret it. Not because of fan outrage, but simply because I was disappointed in myself. I was overly sensitive to some of the criticism ET got from parent groups when it was first released in '82 having to do with Eliot saying "Penis Breath" or the guns...and then there were certain brilliant, but rough around the edges close ups of ET that I always felt, if technology ever evolves to the point where I can do some facial enhancement for ET, I'd like to. So I did an ET pass for like the third release of the movie and it was okay for a while, but then I realized that what I had done was I had robbed the people who loved ET of their memories of ET. And I regretted that. (massive applause) And the only contrition that I could possibly do because I felt bad about that was, the only contrition that I really performed was when ET came out on DVD for the first time, I asked Universal, I didn't ask Universal, I said you're gonna do this, when you release this on DVD you have to come out for the same price of one DVD, you have to put two movies in the box and one movie will be the 1982 version and the other will be the digitally enhanced version. I'd like to ask you this, let's do a little poll here, cause I know we're coming out with the blu-ray of ET, if I just came out with one ET on blu-ray, 1982, would anyone object to that? (loud NO from the audience). Okay then, so be it. (huge applause)
#105
Shegokigo
Shegokigo
The first One Star review for the complete saga blu-ray on Amazon honestly changed my mind on the subject and I will not be buying these. This is how you make a valid argument:
These latest scene changes are the final proof that George Lucas has lost his mind, however they are NOT the main reason why I just cancelled my blu-ray pre-order. I had been excitedly counting down the days until this release, but this time George/Lucasfilm has given the whole Star Wars community the middle finger by not correcting many of the problems (color) which plagued the 2004 release. This blu-ray has virtually all of the same issues as the DVD. I'm talking about Vader's bubblegum pink lightsaber, the super high orange or purple explosions opposed to the more realistic white hot/yelow effects. These were especially noticable during the Battle of Yavin, Tantive IV shootout, and the carbon freezing chamber duel. They stuck out to the point to where they were almost distracting. After seeing the prequels, it's hard enough to still view Vader as that ultimate bad a** villian I feared in my childhood, but it's now near impossible to do it when he's chasing after Luke with a pink lightsaber.
Lucasfilm has been made well aware of these issues thru complaints made by ticked off fans since the DVD launched 7 years ago. Now in the last year of hyping up of this Blu Ray release, Lucasfilm has assured us Star Wars fans that our complaints had been heard and addressed in this release, the Blu-Ray would NOT have the same color and audio problems as the dvd's, they went back to the original negatives and spent 3 years fixing these particular problems, they manually went thru frame by frame in the problem scenes fixing and making other color corrections to bring them close again to the original theatrical versions.
Heck Starwars.com displays a screenshot of Luke's fixed blue lightsaber on the Millenium Falcon in ANH, boasting about how they went back and fixed these problems. I have seen the Blu-Rays myself and I can confirm this is NOT the case!! Yes it is fixed for that particular frame and a few other frames, but the next shot of the same scene his lightsaber shifts back to green, just like in the screwed up dvd release, then goes to bright white, then back to a very pale blue color. Yes they fixed ONLY a small portion of that scene, left the rest of it untouched with the wrong color, while implying that the whole thing has been corrected. The lightsaber scenes in the other movies, Empire Strikes Back & Return of the Jedi, are practically UNTOUCHED WITH THE SAME color and timing problems that the DVD's have. It's like Lucasfilm is only willing to put in a half a** effort in anything they release anymore.... and why not?? If it says Star Wars on the box it's going to sell.
Now for the changed scenes:
A New Hope
- When R2-D2 hides in the shallow cave from the Sand People, there have been CGI rocks added in. The new rocks now cover up half of R2's body which makes him hidden better. However when he leaves a few seconds later, he just pulls forward and the rocks simply disappear!! Did they just forget to alter that scene too?
- Obi-Wan's introduction, he scares the Sand People away with a Krayt dragon call, has been redone again and now sounds like a jr. high kid making funny noises in Windows sound recorder. When I first heard it I thought no way, it's someone pulling a joke. It's sounds so bad and is so out of place, they made absolutely no effort to mix it in at all. You'll just have to hear it for yourselves... but sadly it's real. Unbelievable
- Greedo still shoots first. It is alot better than the DVD version.
Empire Strikes Back
- Wampa's arm in fixed. Looks good about time.
Return of the Jedi
- Jabba's Palace has a bigger door... ok?
- New CGI alien walking around in Jabba's palace as everyone sleeps. Poorly done and sticks out worse than a sore thumb... looks like Sebulba from Episode I?
- Ewok's now have CGI eyelids, blink, and sometimes make a clicking noise when they do. (maybe a tribute to Muppets/Fraggle Rock?)
- Darth Vader now screams "Noooooooooooo" as he picks up and throws the emperor, much like the way he does at the end of Episode III.... now twice!! This ruins a great and one of my favorite scenes. It's bad. The voice doesn't even sound like Vader's and it's just lazily pasted over the rest of the audio. Lucasfilm didn't make the effort to blend in at all..... what are they thinking????? If you really feel you need to add something like that, at least attempt a decent job.
This has just gotten laughingly ridiculous. There is no excuse this time for ignoring what the fans want and taking away more of the original magic the movies had back in the 70's and 80's. Besides the deleted scenes, this is not a quality release. I've cancelled my pre-order and I'm done with anything new to do with Star Wars. This includes the new upcoming 3d versions which will no doubt have even more stupid changes and conveniently opens the door for yet another Blu-Ray release. I have my unaltered copies on my bonus DVD and that's all I need.
I urge anyone who feels the same way to NOT fill the pockets of George Lucas anymore!! I don't understand how they think it's necessary tinker with new stupid voiceovers and Ewok eyes, but not fix the more obvious and distracting problems of this and the previous release. All the while Lucasfilm insinuated, just as recently as last week, that they had indeed corrected those problems..... THAT IS FALSE ADVERTISING!! They also claimed to have exhaustively sent this set thru 3 levels of quality control which is either another lie or Lucas has the most elite team of a** kissers ever assembled. I've defended the first two prequels, the Special Editions, and George Lucas himself over the years, but I'm done. For the first time in 25 years they will not be getting another dime of my money.
***UPDATE 9/9/11***
I've viewed the bonus content which the deleted scenes are no doubt the best of all the extra features. As for the Prequels, the previously released DVD deleted scenes are NOT included, so hang onto your old discs. The older movies include scenes that have been Star Wars folklore for years. Some are good and the quality is what you expect for deleted scenes cut over 30 years ago. However some of scenes I particularly had interest in, seem to be made from degraded alternate shots... since there are productions stills and video snippets that Lucasfilm released, over the years in different supplemental products, showing the same scenes taken from higher quality sources. On another note, the deleted ESB content shows the scenes leading up to and the aftermath of the wampa fight with rebel soldiers in Echo Base. The battle itself is completely omitted in this release, which is a shame since the battle scene was filmed and possibly finalized before it was cut from the final release. Luckily there are various stills of this scene still floating around and it was covered by Star Wars Insider years back. The rest of the content is very good and it's great finally seeing some of the other scenes... however after viewing I get the impression Lucasfilm is purposely holding back some of these materials for a future release.
#106
BananaHands
BananaHands
I can't wait for the next release to have a "Now with 54% more Ewoks!" sticker tacked on to the box.
#107
fade
fade
#108
blotsfan
blotsfan
I actually thought about this and realized how glad I am that the prequels happened. They might have had flaws, but if not for them we wouldn't have gotten this:
#109
Biannoshufu
Biannoshufu
The soundtracks are the only good thing about the prequels in my opinion
#110
BananaHands
BananaHands
Yeah. Duel of the Fates and this song.
Also, I should mention that the Nannerpuss dances nicely to this.
Also, I should mention that the Nannerpuss dances nicely to this.
#111
Hailey Knight
Hailey Knight
Agreed. John Williams brought his A-game, as usual, especially for Sith. The music for the "NOOO" scene is amazing; I can listen to it on the score without it being ruined by that horrible utterance.The soundtracks are the only good thing about the prequels in my opinion
#112
@Li3n
@Li3n
Simon Pegg is with us: http://twitter.com/#!/simonpegg/status/108864619736612864
And even the BBC took notice: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-14944240@simonpegg
Simon Pegg
Always loved Vader's wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin's ghost. What a fucking shame.
#113
ThatNickGuy
ThatNickGuy
Sadly, I think the only way we'll get proper, BluRay releases of the originals will be after Lucas keels over.
#114
Shegokigo
Shegokigo
On the bright side, the LotR Blu Ray, Extended Edition set is getting rave reviews and I'll be picking it up shortly!
#115
fade
fade
Now with even more crying hobbits!
#116
@Li3n
@Li3n
No, we'll get them once there isn't anything more to change or people stop buying the next altered version... Lucas alive or not.Sadly, I think the only way we'll get proper, BluRay releases of the originals will be after Lucas keels over.
#117
AshburnerX
AshburnerX
I firmly believe Lucas will ether destroy or take the original films to his grave, just so no one can alter his vision after his death.
#118
sixpackshaker
sixpackshaker
And double the ambiguously gay hobbits.Now with even more crying hobbits!
#119
@Li3n
@Li3n
If it really was about his vision i'd actually have some respect for him...but you don't PG-13 Han Solo for your vision... just look at the Spielberg quote i posted on the previous page...I firmly believe Lucas will ether destroy or take the original films to his grave, just so no one can alter his vision after his death.
Ambiguously??And double the ambiguously gay hobbits.
#120
figmentPez
figmentPez
Those are the reason I'm finally wishing I had a Blu-ray player (and an HDTV, though my computer monitor could suffice).On the bright side, the LotR Blu Ray, Extended Edition set is getting rave reviews and I'll be picking it up shortly!
#121
AshburnerX
AshburnerX
Everything is going to be running blue ray next generation... might as well just wait to use your next game console to play Bluray.Those are the reason I'm finally wishing I had a Blu-ray player (and an HDTV, though my computer monitor could suffice).
#122
figmentPez
figmentPez
The WiiU won't play back Blu-ray, and that was likely to be my next console.Everything is going to be running blue ray next generation... might as well just wait to use your next game console to play Bluray.
#123
AshburnerX
AshburnerX
Ok, your next REAL console... Nintendo is adamant about not turning their systems into entertainment systems for some reason.The WiiU won't play back Blu-ray, and that was likely to be my next console.
#124
@Li3n
@Li3n
More like their price strategy doesn't allow for paying 3rd parties for their tech...Ok, your next REAL console... Nintendo is adamant about not turning their systems into entertainment systems for some reason.
#125
ThatNickGuy
ThatNickGuy
Eh, just get a PS3. It's likely not the cheapest BluRay player on the market anymore, but it still gives you the most bang for your buck.
#126
Steve
Steve
http://news.yahoo.com/planet-star-wars-tatooine-discovered-orbiting-2-suns-181404397.html
Unfortunately they won't get the Blu Ray release until 2014.
Unfortunately they won't get the Blu Ray release until 2014.
#127
Kovac
Kovac
I get sad when I think on the fact that I might never again see the original trilogy in all of its glory.
#128
Hailey Knight
Hailey Knight
Just hook up a DVD player to a non-HD TV and get the "extra" discs from the previous release.I get sad when I think on the fact that I might never again see the original trilogy in all of its glory.
#129
Philosopher B.
Philosopher B.
Half in the Bag - The People vs George Lucas and Star Wars Discussion
The Red Letter Media guy talks to the director of The People vs George Lucas about Lucas' new tweaks.
The Red Letter Media guy talks to the director of The People vs George Lucas about Lucas' new tweaks.
#130
Null
Null
I gave up on SW a while back, at least in terms of new material. I love the West End Games SW d6 System - honestly, it is the best system for capturing the feel of Star Wars in an RPG. I love the novels by Karen Traviss, Timothy Zahn, and Aaron Allston. When I found out that 501st: Imperial Commando was going to be the last KT Star Wars novel, that was it for me. Legacy of the Force ended in a horrific debacle and from I've heard, the follow-up series (Outcasts?) is just a mess.
#131
fade
fade
Couldn't stand Zahn's writing style. It was like overhearing a conversation between two teenage girls. Everything was TO THE MAX and dramatic.
#132
Null
Null
As contrasted to the sedate and subtle tone of the usual Star Wars adventures?
Also, I am honestly shocked that you don't like something.
Also, I am honestly shocked that you don't like something.
#133
Silver Jelly
Silver Jelly
Teenage drama and to the max? Just like the prequels!
#134
fade
fade
As contrasted to the sedate and subtle tone of the usual Star Wars adventures?
Also, I am honestly shocked that you don't like something.
#135
General Specific
General Specific