Export thread

We already expected that this was the case, but were hoping it wasn't.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/05/19/south.korea.ship/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1

"(We) will take resolute countermeasures against North Korea and make it admit its wrongdoings through strong international cooperation and return to the international community as a responsible member," President Lee Myung-bak told Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd in phone talks, according to Lee's office, Yonhap reported.

Click to expand...

*sighs and shakes his head* This is why North Korea is able to do this shit to you.

That and the hundreds of missiles aimed at every city in your country.

North Korea warns of war if punished for ship sinking.



"And here we... go."

I wonder if China is actually going to continue to back them through this...

Can we just blow up North Korea already?

Unfortunately North Korea has had years and years of unanswered saber rattling that now thy think they can get away with this shit.
... sadly, it needs to stop. The whole situation. I hate to be parent of the world, but damn it, when you have a child who is misbehaving sometimes you need to smack their ass and send them to their room without supper.

The reason is China. We can't really afford to do shit about NK unless we know China won't back them.

Dei said:

The reason is China. We can't really afford to do shit about NK unless we know China won't back them.

Click to expand...

Oh I'm very much aware of the China situation.

My response is still the same.

war is for chumps. Do to him what we did to Kadafi. Make him understand that we can and will kill just him if we want. It will be a lot harder than it was with Kadafi, but I would suspect we have the capabilities of either setting up a flash invasion on the capital to assassinate him or figure out where he is with other intel and pound it into the ground with missiles.

Actually every part of that is a terrible idea. Still though, an assassination followed by an occupation/invasion seems like the best solution.

*sigh*

Call me cynical, but I think there's a good chance that North Korea actually will get away with this, and at most there will be another few temporary economic sanctions that have proven so effective in the past.

I wonder if the sinking of the Cheonan will be the Franz Ferdinand assassination of our generation.

God I hope not.

Thread Necromancer;387771][QUOTE=Dei said:

The reason is China. We can't really afford to do shit about NK unless we know China won't back them.

Click to expand...

Oh I'm very much aware of the China situation.

My response is still the same.[/QUOTE]

Sadly.. China got U.S. by the balls really. Economically (most goods are still being made there and ship to US) Financially (China owns a good majority of U.S. Debts) Militarily (ONLY if we go to a land war, I don't think U.S. is ready to use Nukes yet)

As long China back North Korea (mainly for strategic reasons), NK thinks they can get away with stuff cause "big daddy" got his back.

Why do we care what happens to South Korea? Let the North invade. The U.S. has been playing world police for too long. We should back our allies, but we should not be the force or the brains behind any of operation. I'm not saying isolationism, but I think we need to take it down a peg.

Chibibar;387869][QUOTE=Thread Necromancer;387771][QUOTE=Dei said:

The reason is China. We can't really afford to do shit about NK unless we know China won't back them.

Click to expand...

Oh I'm very much aware of the China situation.

My response is still the same.[/QUOTE]

Sadly.. China got U.S. by the balls really. Economically (most goods are still being made there and ship to US) Financially (China owns a good majority of U.S. Debts) Militarily (ONLY if we go to a land war, I don't think U.S. is ready to use Nukes yet)

As long China back North Korea (mainly for strategic reasons), NK thinks they can get away with stuff cause "big daddy" got his back.[/QUOTE]

Alternatively, the US has China by the balls, as we're their biggest trading partner (economically) and the largest, most powerful Navy and Air Force in the world (military), more than capable of blockading China's ports to prevent trade. It's a no win scenario for ether side if we go to war, as both our nations would be devastated both economically.

That being said, China knows it can't protect North Korea for very much longer. They are far too loud and far too gun happy to be allowed to jeopardize China's defense in the region any longer. I suspect we'll see a Chinese invasion of North Korea long before we see a South Korean/America one, unless the North Koreans beat them to it with a revolution.

dr_awkward said:

Why do we care what happens to South Korea? Let the North invade. The U.S. has been playing world police for too long. We should back our allies, but we should not be the force or the brains behind any of operation. I'm not saying isolationism, but I think we need to take it down a peg.

Click to expand...

I think you answered your own question.

And I think the speech from Team America World Police put it best:

Guy in Bar: See, there's three kinds of people: dicks, pussies, and assholes. Pussies think everyone can get along, and dicks just want to fuck all the time without thinking it through. But then you got your assholes, Chuck. And all the assholes want us to shit all over everything! So, pussies may get mad at dicks once in a while, because pussies get fucked by dicks. But dicks also fuck assholes, Chuck. And if they didn't fuck the assholes, you know what you'd get? You'd get your dick and your pussy all covered in shit!

Soliloquy said:

*sigh*

Call me cynical, but I think there's a good chance that North Korea actually will get away with this, and at most there will be another few temporary economic sanctions that have proven so effective in the past.

Click to expand...

Pretty much what I think will happen too. I'll echo your *sigh*

Now I am glad that I am pretty much out of the draft age range.

sixpackshaker said:

Now I am glad that I am pretty much out of the draft age range.

Click to expand...

well. depend how bad it is, they might call everyone.

while my back pretty much prevent me doing anything front line (cause I have a permanent slipped disc and need to be fused when I get older) I can still do desk/computer work.

Trust me. The ROK is more than capable of defending their own land at this stage of the game. US forces (Army) will get there in time to counterattack and force regime change.

Frankly. Most of the ROK goverment doesn't WANT reunification...the economic bill would be beyond their ability to meet. Look at how Germany struggled after the wall came down...now multiply that times 100 and you have the scope of economic hole the South would find themselves in. That's without mentioning the DPRK ability to reach Japan, ROK, Okinawa and other countries with chemical and nuclear weapons.

dr_awkward said:

Why do we care what happens to South Korea?

Click to expand...

You have a mutual defense pact?

Frank;387975][QUOTE=dr_awkward said:

Why do we care what happens to South Korea?

Click to expand...

You have a mutual defense pact?[/QUOTE]

^

Frank;387975][QUOTE=dr_awkward said:

Why do we care what happens to South Korea?

Click to expand...

You have a mutual defense pact?[/QUOTE]

DING DING DING we have a winner.

not to mention how sad we would all be with out KIA's and Hyundai's

sixpackshaker said:

not to mention how sad we would all be with out KIA's and Hyundai's

Click to expand...

That would break my heart.

So, S. Korea's got our back? I feel so much safer now.

You know. It is kinda funny that the salvage evidence points toward North Korea. The weapon type, serial number and such. Sure it could be shot from another sub, but why? to start another war?

dr_awkward;387998][QUOTE=sixpackshaker said:

not to mention how sad we would all be with out KIA's and Hyundai's

Click to expand...

That would break my heart.

So, S. Korea's got our back? I feel so much safer now.[/QUOTE]

Don't knock South Korea... they release some very state of the art weapons systems and have some of the most modern firearms in the world. They also have very well trained troops at their disposal. The problem is that they are right next door to their greatest foe and he can easily bomb every square inch of their country with missiles and the rumored nukes... and their greatest ally is unable to help them unless their greatest enemy starts an invasion.

AshburnerX;388008][QUOTE=dr_awkward;387998][QUOTE=sixpackshaker said:

not to mention how sad we would all be with out KIA's and Hyundai's

Click to expand...

That would break my heart.

So, S. Korea's got our back? I feel so much safer now.[/QUOTE]

Don't knock South Korea... they release some very state of the art weapons systems and have some of the most modern firearms in the world. They also have very well trained troops at their disposal. The problem is that they are right next door to their greatest foe and he can easily bomb every square inch of their country with missiles and the rumored nukes... and their greatest ally is unable to help them unless their greatest enemy starts an invasion.[/QUOTE]

all part of the Cease fire agreement.

dr_awkward;387998][QUOTE=sixpackshaker said:

not to mention how sad we would all be with out KIA's and Hyundai's

Click to expand...

That would break my heart.

So, S. Korea's got our back? I feel so much safer now.[/QUOTE]

Ah, ok, got it. Since the US is the first military power in the world, any treaty you sign with them is invalid. They'll just do whatever they want!! Awesome...

(Also, honoring these pacts is in your best interest. Not doing so would show you not to be trustworthy and, worse, would pose a weak image to your enemies)

dr_awkward;387998][QUOTE=sixpackshaker said:

not to mention how sad we would all be with out KIA's and Hyundai's

Click to expand...

That would break my heart.

So, S. Korea's got our back? I feel so much safer now.[/QUOTE]

Yeah! Fuck everyone else! Whooo hoo!

I have nothing but the utmost respect for the RoK military. Those guys are SCARY-disciplined, for the most part. I agree that absorbing the North (best-case scenario if China doesn't back up it's yapping cousin to the south) is not in the North's best interest. However, I wonder if, after the initial disturbance, that wouldn't put Korea as a much bigger player on the world stage? Southern technology and manufacturing combined with the north's large agricultural and labor pool. Hrmmm...

Could they do it, though?

Seriously, the DPRK has been shaped by its masters' whims to an utterly fucking horrifying extent. Turning it into an actual country, or even half of one, might be beyond mortal ken.

Observe:

Iaculus said:

Could they do it, though?

Seriously, the DPRK has been shaped by its masters' whims to an utterly fucking horrifying extent. Turning it into an actual country, or even half of one, might be beyond mortal ken.

Observe:

Click to expand...

Well, don't forget that, while it's definitely underdeveloped, North Korea has been surviving as a country for 65 years -- it's pretty much a 3rd world country, yeah, but it's been surviving.

South Korea won't have to turn the North into a surviving metropolis overnight, and it's not like the North will suddenly need the South to double its resources to maintain it-- all that needs to happen is a slow, natural improvement of the area.

This is, of course, assuming that something happens beyond everyone making angry noises towards the North for a while.

AshburnerX;387886][QUOTE=Chibibar;387869][QUOTE=Thread Necromancer;387771][QUOTE=Dei said:

The reason is China. We can't really afford to do shit about NK unless we know China won't back them.

Click to expand...

Oh I'm very much aware of the China situation.

My response is still the same.[/QUOTE]

Sadly.. China got U.S. by the balls really. Economically (most goods are still being made there and ship to US) Financially (China owns a good majority of U.S. Debts) Militarily (ONLY if we go to a land war, I don't think U.S. is ready to use Nukes yet)

As long China back North Korea (mainly for strategic reasons), NK thinks they can get away with stuff cause "big daddy" got his back.[/QUOTE]

Alternatively, the US has China by the balls, as we're their biggest trading partner (economically) and the largest, most powerful Navy and Air Force in the world (military), more than capable of blockading China's ports to prevent trade. It's a no win scenario for ether side if we go to war, as both our nations would be devastated both economically.

That being said, China knows it can't protect North Korea for very much longer. They are far too loud and far too gun happy to be allowed to jeopardize China's defense in the region any longer. I suspect we'll see a Chinese invasion of North Korea long before we see a South Korean/America one, unless the North Koreans beat them to it with a revolution.[/QUOTE]

China does NOT want a strong, unified Korea. That's why they keep peddling to the North.

---------- Post added at 10:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:41 AM ----------

Officer_Charon said:

I have nothing but the utmost respect for the RoK military. Those guys are SCARY-disciplined, for the most part. I agree that absorbing the North (best-case scenario if China doesn't back up it's yapping cousin to the south) is not in the North's best interest. However, I wonder if, after the initial disturbance, that wouldn't put Korea as a much bigger player on the world stage? Southern technology and manufacturing combined with the north's large agricultural and labor pool. Hrmmm...

Click to expand...

Yes! This scares China shitless. A unified Korea would become the next Japan and a MAJOR, MAJOR trade partner with the U.S.

Chazwozel said:

Yes! This scares China shitless. A unified Korea would become the next Japan and a MAJOR, MAJOR trade partner with the U.S.

Click to expand...

I believe the Trade partner to the U.S. or at least U.S. side.

Now if North Korea wins and takes over then they would be on China's side. But China knows that North Korea don't have the resources to actually win this without China's backing. South Korea is pretty well establish and have the money and technology on their side.

Chibibar;389452][QUOTE=Chazwozel said:

Yes! This scares China shitless. A unified Korea would become the next Japan and a MAJOR, MAJOR trade partner with the U.S.

Click to expand...

I believe the Trade partner to the U.S. or at least U.S. side.

Now if North Korea wins and takes over then they would be on China's side. But China knows that North Korea don't have the resources to actually win this without China's backing. South Korea is pretty well establish and have the money and technology on their side.[/QUOTE]

A unified Korea would see a complete dissolve of the pyongyang regime no matter who wins. Kim Jong douche would have a major revolution on his hands. China has no interest in seeing a unified Korea. They just funnel trade to the pyongyang to keep it so.

Chazwozel;389457][QUOTE=Chibibar;389452][QUOTE=Chazwozel said:

Yes! This scares China shitless. A unified Korea would become the next Japan and a MAJOR, MAJOR trade partner with the U.S.

Click to expand...

I believe the Trade partner to the U.S. or at least U.S. side.

Now if North Korea wins and takes over then they would be on China's side. But China knows that North Korea don't have the resources to actually win this without China's backing. South Korea is pretty well establish and have the money and technology on their side.[/QUOTE]

A unified Korea would see a complete dissolve of the pyongyang regime no matter who wins. Kim Jong douche would have a major revolution on his hands. China has no interest in seeing a unified Korea. They just funnel trade to the pyongyang to keep it so.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, the last thing China wants is someone else on their border who can zerg-rush them should it come down to it. Right now, Russia is the only major power who could do that, and China has more soldiers than them. They don't want another, possibly upsetting the strategic situation.

73,000,000 will not Zerg Rush 1,200,000,000.

If the North Invades and wins the war, their backwards outlook on trade and global relations will just destroy the World Economy.

China does not want a Unified Korea, because it will show the people on the border just how good life can be.

sixpackshaker said:

73,000,000 will not Zerg Rush 1,200,000,000.

Click to expand...

Their military is much, much closer than that. And while China's is spread out everywhere, the DPRK would have everyone in one spot.

I'm sure China could mobilize more, easily, but it would still take a lot of time and resources to arm them and get them there.

TeKeo said:

Yeah, the last thing China wants is someone else on their border who can zerg-rush them should it come down to it. Right now, Russia is the only major power who could do that, and China has more soldiers than them. They don't want another, possibly upsetting the strategic situation.

Click to expand...

True, but all Russia has to do is survive until winter. I don't believe Russia has EVER lost a war that stretched into winter, ether on the offense or on the defense.

AshburnerX said:

I don't believe Russia has EVER lost a war that stretched into winter, ether on the offense or on the defense.

Click to expand...

*ahem*

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100525/ap_on_re_as/as_skorea_ship_sinks

Wow.. Looks like it might be war. The North is prepping and kicking people out from joint factory.

We don't talk about the Finnish War, Dave. The horror...the horror...

Man, Hilary has been kept pretty busy lately. I would not want her job.

Dei said:

Man, Hilary has been kept pretty busy lately. I would not want her job.

Click to expand...

It beats having Joe Biden's job.

Well the N.K. sanctions are up:

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE64O3YU20100525

In this connection, the following measures will be taken at the first phase:
"1. All relations with the puppet authorities will be severed.
"2. There will be neither dialogue nor contact between the authorities during (South Korean President) Lee Myung Bak's tenure of office.
"3. The work of the Panmunjom Red Cross liaison representatives will be completely suspended.
"4. All communication links between the north and the south will be cut off.
"5. The Consultative Office for North-South Economic Cooperation in the Kaesong Industrial Zone will be frozen and dismantled and all the personnel concerned of the south side will be expelled without delay.
"6. We will start all-out counterattack against the puppet group's 'psychological warfare against the north.'
"7. The passage of south Korean ships and airliners through the territorial waters and air of our side will be totally banned.
"8. All the issues arising in the inter-Korean relations will be handled under a wartime law.
"There is no need to show any mercy or patience for such confrontation maniacs, sycophants and traitors and wicked warmongers as the (South Korean President) Lee Myung Bak group."


Wow. Way to shoot yourself in the foot Kim Jong.

Shit, that's bad.

Nothing will make the situation worse than cutting off contact when both countries are on a war footing.

Just think about this.

We're pretty sure he has nuclear warhead technology. We know he's a nut. He was the one to strike first, so he's probably at full wartime capability now.

fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck.

Looks like we may be pulling out of Iraq and Afghanistan after all.

Soliloquy said:

Just think about this.

We're pretty sure he has nuclear warhead technology. We know he's a nut. He was the one to strike first, so he's probably at full wartime capability now.

fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck.

Click to expand...

Yeah nuclear technology with no ability to deliver it anywhere. N.K's missiles suck whereas the United States can target ours to a half inch above your eyebrow.

Chazwozel;389578][QUOTE=Soliloquy said:

Just think about this.

We're pretty sure he has nuclear warhead technology. We know he's a nut. He was the one to strike first, so he's probably at full wartime capability now.

fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck.

Click to expand...

Yeah nuclear technology with no ability to deliver it anywhere. N.K's missiles suck whereas the United States can target ours to a half inch above your eyebrow.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, they won't be able to hit us, I know. I'm thinking South Korea, though -- the missiles they have were able to fly straight for a little bit, and it's not like they have to be accurate.

Chaz... how is that calming? We have a mad man with his hand on the trigger to nukes that are flawed to the point of unpredictability... the fucker could blow half of Asia up trying to sink South Korea.

Soliloquy;389580][QUOTE=Chazwozel;389578][QUOTE=Soliloquy said:

Just think about this.

We're pretty sure he has nuclear warhead technology. We know he's a nut. He was the one to strike first, so he's probably at full wartime capability now.

fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck.

Click to expand...

Yeah nuclear technology with no ability to deliver it anywhere. N.K's missiles suck whereas the United States can target ours to a half inch above your eyebrow.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, they won't be able to hit us, I know. I'm thinking South Korea, though -- the missiles they have were able to fly straight for a little bit, and it's not like they have to be accurate.[/QUOTE]


You're right. The Pyongyang has already shown its stupidity via cutting itself off from South Korea. I don't doubt they lack the foresight that China would not support such an attack on SK and the US would step in.

---------- Post added at 02:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:31 PM ----------

The Mex said:

Chaz... how is that calming? We have a mad man with his hand on the trigger to nukes that are flawed to the point of unpredictability... the fucker could blow half of Asia up trying to sink South Korea.

Click to expand...

What's calming is that his madness will be his ultimate undoing and that the two Koreas may finally be unified.

Chazwozel;389586][QUOTE=Soliloquy;389580][QUOTE=Chazwozel;389578][QUOTE=Soliloquy said:

Just think about this.

We're pretty sure he has nuclear warhead technology. We know he's a nut. He was the one to strike first, so he's probably at full wartime capability now.

fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck.

Click to expand...

Yeah nuclear technology with no ability to deliver it anywhere. N.K's missiles suck whereas the United States can target ours to a half inch above your eyebrow.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, they won't be able to hit us, I know. I'm thinking South Korea, though -- the missiles they have were able to fly straight for a little bit, and it's not like they have to be accurate.[/QUOTE]


You're right. The Pyongyang has already shown its stupidity via cutting itself off from South Korea. I don't doubt they lack the foresight that China would not support such an attack on SK and the US would step in.[/QUOTE]

Here's hoping there's at least some sane brain cells knocking around in that guy's head.

It is scary that a guy willing to go out and just cut ties like that. It is interesting that the North is denying all these attacks (actually they are denying ALL attacks that the south claim was from the North) but the tech is pretty much pointed toward the North. Do you think it is possible that a sub from the South Korea side using North Korea torpedoes sink their own ship in order to finish the war and oust Kim Jong for good? (risky but a wild wild wild scenario)

personally I think the North did all those attacks but don't want to admit to it. (that is my opinion)

Chibibar said:

It is scary that a guy willing to go out and just cut ties like that. It is interesting that the North is denying all these attacks (actually they are denying ALL attacks that the south claim was from the North) but the tech is pretty much pointed toward the North. Do you think it is possible that a sub from the South Korea side using North Korea torpedoes sink their own ship in order to finish the war and oust Kim Jong for good? (risky but a wild wild wild scenario)

personally I think the North did all those attacks but don't want to admit to it. (that is my opinion)

Click to expand...

And that is how conspiracy theories are born...

sixpackshaker;389598][QUOTE=Chibibar said:

It is scary that a guy willing to go out and just cut ties like that. It is interesting that the North is denying all these attacks (actually they are denying ALL attacks that the south claim was from the North) but the tech is pretty much pointed toward the North. Do you think it is possible that a sub from the South Korea side using North Korea torpedoes sink their own ship in order to finish the war and oust Kim Jong for good? (risky but a wild wild wild scenario)

personally I think the North did all those attacks but don't want to admit to it. (that is my opinion)

Click to expand...

And that is how conspiracy theories are born...[/QUOTE]

so you believe that NK did not sink the SK ship?

No, he's saying that speculation such as you just posted is what leads people to create conspiracy theories.

Baerdog said:

No, he's saying that speculation such as you just posted is what leads people to create conspiracy theories.

Click to expand...

ah... I see. I only came up with that since North Korea publicly DENIES all these attack (all the major attacks including the torpedo) so........ someone shot it. All evidence point to the North.

And now... we are in a mess (well North and South Korea)

Several things.

DPRK (North Korea) has the Taepo Dong II missile capable of reaching Alaska and Okinawa. He has enough Scud-B & C missiles to hit most of the ROK and larger missiles for Japan. The IAEA has confirmed he detonated a nuclear explosive underground several years ago. He has a large stockpile of chemical weapons.

All that said...saber rattling. Done it before, will do it again. In many ways this is for DPRK internal consumption and not the world at large.

Jonzac said:

All that said...saber rattling. Done it before, will do it again. In many ways this is for DPRK internal consumption and not the world at large.

Click to expand...

I don't know. We've got people on both sides preparing for war, with no talking going on. Unless talks resume, things can only escalate.

I hope I'm wrong, but I wouldn't be surprised to see this break out into fighting within a week.

I suppose that it could blow up. The biggest fear was that the population hit the mass starvation point and the only way Kim Jong Il could keep his leadership role was to divert the North by an attack on teh South.

I've lived there and this is worse than normal, but not the first time this kind of thing has happened. I suspect a month or two of hightened tension and then an easing of sanctions and more normal relations after that..(i.e. the Kaesong industrial area being reopened...DPRK REALLY doesn't want that to shut down.)

I'm starting to think that the boiling pot with its ever increasing pressure is worse than it would be to just have it blow up and done with. Obama needs to sit down with Hu Jintao and try to talk China into siding with the rest of the world instead of North Korea... or nukes may start flying.

I know it may or may not happen, but let's all just hope that Korea doesn't become the Serbia of the 21st century in terms of wars starting.

Eriol said:

I know it may or may not happen, but let's all just hope that Korea doesn't become the Serbia of the 21st century in terms of wars starting.

Click to expand...

Yeah, damn it, I don't want my Samsung prices to skyrocket!

The official communist news agency say communication links will be cut, South Korean ships and planes will be banned from the North's territory and all South Korean personnel from a jointly-run industrial estate on the northern side of the border will be expelled.

Pyongyang says it will also abrogate a non-aggression pact.

Click to expand...

Did someone mention this part yet?

Soliloquy said:

The official communist news agency say communication links will be cut, South Korean ships and planes will be banned from the North's territory and all South Korean personnel from a jointly-run industrial estate on the northern side of the border will be expelled.

Pyongyang says it will also abrogate a non-aggression pact.

Click to expand...

Did someone mention this part yet?

Click to expand...

You did. I read that in my article that I posted. this is why I fear a war will probably break out.

When you stop talking, people will start shooting.

I am just hoping...... that no one decides to press THE button.

Chibibar;389633][QUOTE=Soliloquy said:

The official communist news agency say communication links will be cut, South Korean ships and planes will be banned from the North's territory and all South Korean personnel from a jointly-run industrial estate on the northern side of the border will be expelled.

Pyongyang says it will also abrogate a non-aggression pact.

Click to expand...

Did someone mention this part yet?

Click to expand...

You did. I read that in my article that I posted. this is why I fear a war will probably break out.

When you stop talking, people will start shooting.

I am just hoping...... that no one decides to press THE button.[/QUOTE]

No, I mean the part about the non-aggression pact.

yea... Abrogate = abolish right? (I had to look that up but I was sure that is what it mean)

I figure if the south violate the North air/sea space, they WILL shoot to kill.

Shooting I don't worry TOO much, it is the use of Nuclear weapon. NK does have the ability to hit places (as state before) like Alaska, Japan, and of course South Korea. That can turn ugly REAL fast.

Now.......... while the north Abolish the non-aggression pact, does this mean South Korea can shoot down plans/ships that come into South Korea's territory?

Yeah... it would also probably mean war if they did, though.

The Mex said:

Yeah... it would also probably mean war if they did, though.

Click to expand...

well... technically they have been at war all this time. They were under a LONG cease fire/truce.

Yes... open war.

since it's been such a long truce, but still a war... Does this mean we've still been at war with China this whole time, too?

Soliloquy said:

since it's been such a long truce, but still a war... Does this mean we've still been at war with China this whole time, too?

Click to expand...

Taiwan and China? or U.S. and China?

Or are you talking about U.S. involvement in S.Korean vs China involvement in N.Korea.

If that was the case, then not really cause the U.S. and China never officially declare war on each other (that would have been bad) both countries are guilty using another country to fight their battles.

We were never at war. It was a police action for us. North and South Korea were the ones at war.

Of course tell that to the 2 million casualties of that war, that it was not a war.

sixpackshaker said:

We were never at war. It was a police action for us. North and South Korea were the ones at war.

Of course tell that to the 2 million casualties of that war, that it was not a war.

Click to expand...

Yea. Fighting in the modern time has gotten complex.

Chibibar said:

Yea. Fighting in the modern time has gotten convoluted.

Click to expand...

That's better.

Troll;389690][QUOTE=Chibibar said:

Yea. Fighting in the modern time has gotten convoluted.

Click to expand...

That's better.[/QUOTE]

Thanks. I actually like that word better. I just couldn't think of it.

I think that technically, we haven't been at war since WWII.

So, here's to our 65 years of peace!

Soliloquy said:

I think that technically, we haven't been at war since WWII.

So, here's to our 65 years of peace!

Click to expand...

Yea. right now the North is rattling their sabers and what not. If they start shooting, lets pray the rest of the world are level headed.

The Mex said:

I'm starting to think that the boiling pot with its ever increasing pressure is worse than it would be to just have it blow up and done with. Obama needs to sit down with Hu Jintao and try to talk China into siding with the rest of the world instead of North Korea... or nukes may start flying.

Click to expand...

Hilary has been sweet talking China for awhile, trying to get them to agree to sanctions, I don't know how things are going with all out war though.

Dei;389706][QUOTE=The Mex said:

I'm starting to think that the boiling pot with its ever increasing pressure is worse than it would be to just have it blow up and done with. Obama needs to sit down with Hu Jintao and try to talk China into siding with the rest of the world instead of North Korea... or nukes may start flying.

Click to expand...

Hilary has been sweet talking China for awhile, trying to get them to agree to sanctions, I don't know how things are going with all out war though.[/QUOTE]
The thing is that N. Korea has two things that make everyone else nervous.

1. China backing them up. This is a huge thing. China has a huge military (everyone is require to serve unless you are a politician, doctor or priest)
2. N. Korea have nuclear weapon and bio-weapons.

If U.S. can get China to sanction NK and not backing them, NK might back down from a fight.
not much you can do with nuclear and bio-weapons unless you shoot them down after they are launched.

The thing that worries me about the situation is even if we can get a regime change in NK, through war or what have you, the population has been held back so long by the Kim Family Bullshit that it will be difficult to set up a new gov't that will be free from the last 60 years.

sixpackshaker said:

The thing that worries me about the situation is even if we can get a regime change in NK, through war or what have you, the population has been held back so long by the Kim Family Bullshit that it will be difficult to set up a new gov't that will be free from the last 60 years.

Click to expand...

How did it work with Germany? Now I don't think ANYBODY would argue that East Germany was anywhere CLOSE to as backward as North Korea is right now, but still, it was an integration of two countries with radically different economic situations. What happened, how did it go, what were the consequences?

We need to build a wall between north and south korea.. so that then we can tear it down and use that as a union-creating event!

Eriol;389801][QUOTE=sixpackshaker said:

The thing that worries me about the situation is even if we can get a regime change in NK, through war or what have you, the population has been held back so long by the Kim Family Bullshit that it will be difficult to set up a new gov't that will be free from the last 60 years.

Click to expand...

How did it work with Germany? Now I don't think ANYBODY would argue that East Germany was anywhere CLOSE to as backward as North Korea is right now, but still, it was an integration of two countries with radically different economic situations. What happened, how did it go, what were the consequences?[/QUOTE]

I'm no expert, but from what I understand, a large, LARGE part of it was that because the East German government was essentially the puppet bureaucracy of a distant(ish) power, there was far less integration between the Soviet worldview and the East German national identity. Also, since East and West Germany weren't even technically at war, there was considerably greater levels of communication and cooperation between the two than the RoK and DPRK.

Thus the collapse of the wall, and the re-integration of Germany was aided enormously by the social pressure to actually assume a distinctly German national identity and be free of the second-class citizenship afforded to them by the Soviet Union.

None of this applies to the DPRK, as best as can be determined, because of lil' Kim's success is controlling the North Korean national identity and organizing it around an immense cult of personality, as well as circumstances on both sides conspiring to keep daily interaction extremely low.

So... kinda like Finland vs Soviet Union? aranoid:

For all the backing of N. Korea China does, they sure don't seem to want North Koreans immigrating into their country.

If something does happen, why does everyone seem to think we will have a unified korea? If we are so dependent on china being the big brother to approve our actions, who's to say they wouldn't get control of the the north?

I don't think China actually *wants* North Korea to be part of China.

Dei said:

I don't think China actually *wants* North Korea to be part of China.

Click to expand...

This. China has more than enough on it's plate right now just trying to keep the flow of information tightly controlled in their borders and they are failing more each and every day. They really don't need more territory right now, especially territory that would be highly dependent on them for many years.

Do you think that China just wants N. Korea to be a geographical buffer between China and the highly-advanced outside world? That would explain why they reacted so violently to us chasing N. Korea to the border in the first Korean war, and why they want it still around despite all the issues that come from its existence?

Would you want potentially hostile troops on YOUR doorstep?

Sure, I'll take them.

Have they had all their vaccines and shit?

Soliloquy said:

Do you think that China just wants N. Korea to be a geographical buffer between China and the highly-advanced outside world? That would explain why they reacted so violently to us chasing N. Korea to the border in the first Korean war, and why they want it still around despite all the issues that come from its existence?

Click to expand...

But then question is when does this buffer outweigh it's usefulness? China can't deny its people access to the outside world for much longer, as we already have Americans smuggling in software to bypass filtering software in other closed regimes (the news of the Iranian elections last year was largely provided by people using such software). They can't keep it up forever, and force of arms won't stop it.

mr_thehun said:

You know, the funny thing is, I spend my time online telling Chinese to STFU about western things and western people that they're wrong about China.

Click to expand...

Now that's a public service!

The thing about China is also about "face" and pride. China has maintain this so far and don't want to lose now. They didn't lose back in the 50s when backing N.Korea. It would look bad if they lose N.Korea now. Chinese have a LONG memory when it comes to people making them lose face. It is not a good thing.

You guys realize that Jonzac has more metal on his uniform than there is in most of our houses, right?

While you guys have good thoughts and ideas I'm going to side with him as he's kind of the expert on NK's saber rattling.

Dave said:

You guys realize that Jonzac has more metal on his uniform than there is in most of our houses, right?

Click to expand...

Damn modern building materials!

Seriously, though, I hope he's right. The idea that the DPRK could say, "fuck it" and go crazy scares the crap out of me.

Shakey said:

If something does happen, why does everyone seem to think we will have a unified korea? If we are so dependent on china being the big brother to approve our actions, who's to say they wouldn't get control of the the north?

Click to expand...

If something does happen, why does everyone seem to think we will have a Korea at all? Even without nukes, the DPRK has a nation-destroying quantity of artillery pointed south. It seems to be conventional military wisdom that Seoul, at least, will be utterly flattened within minutes of hostilities breaking out.

North Korea isn't a country - it's the biggest fortress on the planet, and even if it only lasts a day before being crushed, the amount of damage it can inflict in that time is incalculable.

Seoul to the Han river would be hammered in the first 7 days. In fact, reduction of that threat is an important item, obviously. DPRK scuds and missiles/WMDs aren't really there to destroy ROK cities and such...but to ensure that the U.N. can't get additional forces into the country.

Although, I'm positive the ROK can stop the DPRK....they may take Seoul, but I don't see them getting South of the Han river again.

Editted:

I just thought I would say that it is NOT out of the realm of possiblity that the North could attack...My personal opinion is they will not, for several reasons...some of which I'm not going to post on a forum. I could be wrong...I hope I'm not, we certainly would have a hard time shifting forces to meet the threat...and more importantly I'm at the fucking Pentagon instead of with my old F-15E wing.

Dave said:

You guys realize that Jonzac has more metal on his uniform than there is in most of our houses, right?

While you guys have good thoughts and ideas I'm going to side with him as he's kind of the expert on NK's saber rattling.

Click to expand...

Pfft, this is the internet, Dave. We're going to disagree with him out of pride.

Jonzac said:

Seoul to the Han river would be hammered in the first 7 days. In fact, reduction of that threat is an important item, obviously. DPRK scuds and missiles/WMDs aren't really there to destroy ROK cities and such...but to ensure that the U.N. can't get additional forces into the country.

Although, I'm positive the ROK can stop the DPRK....they may take Seoul, but I don't see them getting South of the Han river again.

Editted:

I just thought I would say that it is NOT out of the realm of possiblity that the North could attack...My personal opinion is they will not, for several reasons...some of which I'm not going to post on a forum. I could be wrong...I hope I'm not, we certainly would have a hard time shifting forces to meet the threat...and more importantly I'm at the fucking Pentagon instead of with my old F-15E wing.

Click to expand...

Military Secret and all that Jazz

I hope that NK and SK don't resume the war. after 50 years of new techology and economic buildup (mostly for SK) it would a total loss and regression if they did resume the fighting (plus all the new weapons available now)

Chibibar;390211][QUOTE=Jonzac said:

Seoul to the Han river would be hammered in the first 7 days. In fact, reduction of that threat is an important item, obviously. DPRK scuds and missiles/WMDs aren't really there to destroy ROK cities and such...but to ensure that the U.N. can't get additional forces into the country.

Although, I'm positive the ROK can stop the DPRK....they may take Seoul, but I don't see them getting South of the Han river again.

Editted:

I just thought I would say that it is NOT out of the realm of possiblity that the North could attack...My personal opinion is they will not, for several reasons...some of which I'm not going to post on a forum. I could be wrong...I hope I'm not, we certainly would have a hard time shifting forces to meet the threat...and more importantly I'm at the fucking Pentagon instead of with my old F-15E wing.

Click to expand...

Military Secret and all that Jazz

I hope that NK and SK don't resume the war. after 50 years of new techology and economic buildup (mostly for SK) it would a total loss and regression if they did resume the fighting (plus all the new weapons available now)[/QUOTE]

Awwww, Jonzac, can't you leak classified information just once? For the sake of the Community?

Soliloquy said:

Click to expand...

That is such an awesome puppy.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/05/26/world/main6519447.shtml?tag=topnews

well.. if China decides not to back N. Korea. NK might actually back down.

North Korea has threatened Wednesday to block cross-border traffic and blow up any South Korean loudspeakers blasting propaganda northward as tensions soared over the sinking of a South Korean warship.

Click to expand...

That would be... interesting.

China to Frown Formally on N. Korea Sub Sinking

Click to expand...

Seriously? China is going to "Frown" on it? I swear to fuck all the worlds of politics and reporting just hurts my smurfing head sometimes. You know what! No, damn it, you're right China. Let's all frown! Formally!

.... fuck! :explode:

China to North Korea:

Thread Necromancer said:

China to Frown Formally on N. Korea Sub Sinking

Click to expand...

Seriously? China is going to "Frown" on it? I swear to fuck all the worlds of politics and reporting just hurts my smurfing head sometimes. You know what! No, damn it, you're right China. Let's all frown! Formally!

.... fuck! :explode:

Click to expand...

Hey it is a start. The Chinese is going to let N. Korea rattle its sabre for a bit and see where they are going before bitch slap them back into place

Now if N. Korea DO start blowing up loud speakers in S. Korea, then well....... that would be a different story.

Chibibar;390320][QUOTE=Thread Necromancer said:

China to Frown Formally on N. Korea Sub Sinking

Click to expand...

Seriously? China is going to "Frown" on it? I swear to fuck all the worlds of politics and reporting just hurts my smurfing head sometimes. You know what! No, damn it, you're right China. Let's all frown! Formally!

.... fuck! :explode:

Click to expand...

Hey it is a start. The Chinese is going to let N. Korea rattle its sabre for a bit and see where they are going before bitch slap them back into place

Now if N. Korea DO start blowing up loud speakers in S. Korea, then well....... that would be a different story.[/QUOTE]


I understand it's a start. But I don't foresee China actually doing anything either. I see it as more of a world wide lip service akin to "Son I is the upset" or whatever the meme is.

Thread Necromancer said:

Unfortunately North Korea has had years and years of unanswered saber rattling that now thy think they can get away with this shit.
... sadly, it needs to stop. The whole situation. I hate to be parent of the world, but damn it, when you have a child who is misbehaving sometimes you need to smack their ass and send them to their room without supper.

Click to expand...

oh I understand believe me I really do. The problem is that they are just sabre rattling and no action yet. I'm sure when N. Korea start to ACTUALLY blow up speakers that are house on the S. Korea's wall/fort/base shit will hit the fan.

Well, they did blow up a battleship. Though if they end up not attacking, and letting things settle down they probably will more or less get away with it.

Two kids are sitting in sandbox. Kid A and Kid B.

Kid A "Hey, you broke my boat!!"
Kid B "NUhuh"
Community in the park "It sure looks like all the evidence points to you having broken the boat"
Kid B "Nuhuh! And I'll kick you and bite you and scream at you and throw dirt in your eye if you try to punish me for doing it."
Kid B's bigger brother "You broke the boat and I frown at you "
Kid B " "

why is a kid playing with a boat in a sandbox?

your analogy has issues.

Maybe it is a Star Wars reference, Soliloquy.

Soliloquy said:

why is a kid playing with a boat in a sandbox?

your analogy has issues.

Click to expand...

Because the alternative was having them playing in the bathtub and I wasn't going to go there.

although I suppose it could have been a pool

Thread Necromancer;390410][QUOTE=Soliloquy said:

why is a kid playing with a boat in a sandbox?

your analogy has issues.

Click to expand...

Because the alternative was having them playing in the bathtub and I wasn't going to go there.

although I suppose it could have been a pool[/QUOTE]


heh.. since it was a torpedo, N.K can deny it (or conspiracy theory would be someone else used N.K. Torpedo and fire it) BUT if the loud speaker was shot from N.K. with a smoking trail, it is hard to deny (plus they said they will do it)
So we'll see.

Soliloquy said:

why is a kid playing with a boat in a sandbox?

your analogy has issues.

Click to expand...

I had a toy boat that I used in a my sandbox! I reject your oppression of boats-for-sandboxes!

Eriol;390420][QUOTE=Soliloquy said:

why is a kid playing with a boat in a sandbox?

your analogy has issues.

Click to expand...

I had a toy boat that I used in a my sandbox! I reject your oppression of boats-for-sandboxes!

[/QUOTE]

you can do cool waves in a sandbox where you can't really in a tub (not without your mom/dad yelling) Plus you can do STILL SHOTS! with your boat, on a sand wave

Soliloquy said:

why is a kid playing with a boat in a sandbox?

Click to expand...

Because he's a kid... duh.

My brother in law (my wife's oldest brother) is currently living in South Korea right now. He teach English and married to a local Korean girl and has a son. He is not worry about it too much. He is there about 5 years now and his wife and family doesn't seem to worry too much. He believes they are just rattling sabre just to see how far the North can get away with it.

mr_thehun;392252][QUOTE=Thread Necromancer said:

China to Frown Formally on N. Korea Sub Sinking

Click to expand...

Seriously? China is going to "Frown" on it? I swear to fuck all the worlds of politics and reporting just hurts my smurfing head sometimes. You know what! No, damn it, you're right China. Let's all frown! Formally!

.... fuck! :explode:

Click to expand...

You're reading a translation.

Frown formally isn't nearly as silly as it sounds.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, it's like a mega-frown compared to the frowns of other countries.