North Korea responsible for sinking warship, investigation finds

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Soliloquy

since it's been such a long truce, but still a war... Does this mean we've still been at war with China this whole time, too?
 
C

Chibibar

Soliloquy said:
since it's been such a long truce, but still a war... Does this mean we've still been at war with China this whole time, too?
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Taiwan and China? or U.S. and China?

Or are you talking about U.S. involvement in S.Korean vs China involvement in N.Korea.

If that was the case, then not really cause the U.S. and China never officially declare war on each other (that would have been bad) both countries are guilty using another country to fight their battles.
 
sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

We were never at war. It was a police action for us. North and South Korea were the ones at war.

Of course tell that to the 2 million casualties of that war, that it was not a war.
 
C

Chibibar

sixpackshaker said:
We were never at war. It was a police action for us. North and South Korea were the ones at war.

Of course tell that to the 2 million casualties of that war, that it was not a war.
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Yea. Fighting in the modern time has gotten complex.
 
S

Soliloquy

I think that technically, we haven't been at war since WWII.

So, here's to our 65 years of peace!
 
C

Chibibar

Soliloquy said:
I think that technically, we haven't been at war since WWII.

So, here's to our 65 years of peace!
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Yea. right now the North is rattling their sabers and what not. If they start shooting, lets pray the rest of the world are level headed.
 
Dei

Dei

The Mex said:
I'm starting to think that the boiling pot with its ever increasing pressure is worse than it would be to just have it blow up and done with. Obama needs to sit down with Hu Jintao and try to talk China into siding with the rest of the world instead of North Korea... or nukes may start flying.
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Hilary has been sweet talking China for awhile, trying to get them to agree to sanctions, I don't know how things are going with all out war though.
 
C

Chibibar

Dei;389706][QUOTE=The Mex said:
I'm starting to think that the boiling pot with its ever increasing pressure is worse than it would be to just have it blow up and done with. Obama needs to sit down with Hu Jintao and try to talk China into siding with the rest of the world instead of North Korea... or nukes may start flying.
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Hilary has been sweet talking China for awhile, trying to get them to agree to sanctions, I don't know how things are going with all out war though.[/QUOTE]
The thing is that N. Korea has two things that make everyone else nervous.

1. China backing them up. This is a huge thing. China has a huge military (everyone is require to serve unless you are a politician, doctor or priest)
2. N. Korea have nuclear weapon and bio-weapons.

If U.S. can get China to sanction NK and not backing them, NK might back down from a fight.
not much you can do with nuclear and bio-weapons unless you shoot them down after they are launched.
 
sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

The thing that worries me about the situation is even if we can get a regime change in NK, through war or what have you, the population has been held back so long by the Kim Family Bullshit that it will be difficult to set up a new gov't that will be free from the last 60 years.
 
Eriol

Eriol

sixpackshaker said:
The thing that worries me about the situation is even if we can get a regime change in NK, through war or what have you, the population has been held back so long by the Kim Family Bullshit that it will be difficult to set up a new gov't that will be free from the last 60 years.
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How did it work with Germany? Now I don't think ANYBODY would argue that East Germany was anywhere CLOSE to as backward as North Korea is right now, but still, it was an integration of two countries with radically different economic situations. What happened, how did it go, what were the consequences?
 
Calleja

Calleja

We need to build a wall between north and south korea.. so that then we can tear it down and use that as a union-creating event!
 
SpecialKO

SpecialKO

Eriol;389801][QUOTE=sixpackshaker said:
The thing that worries me about the situation is even if we can get a regime change in NK, through war or what have you, the population has been held back so long by the Kim Family Bullshit that it will be difficult to set up a new gov't that will be free from the last 60 years.
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How did it work with Germany? Now I don't think ANYBODY would argue that East Germany was anywhere CLOSE to as backward as North Korea is right now, but still, it was an integration of two countries with radically different economic situations. What happened, how did it go, what were the consequences?[/QUOTE]

I'm no expert, but from what I understand, a large, LARGE part of it was that because the East German government was essentially the puppet bureaucracy of a distant(ish) power, there was far less integration between the Soviet worldview and the East German national identity. Also, since East and West Germany weren't even technically at war, there was considerably greater levels of communication and cooperation between the two than the RoK and DPRK.

Thus the collapse of the wall, and the re-integration of Germany was aided enormously by the social pressure to actually assume a distinctly German national identity and be free of the second-class citizenship afforded to them by the Soviet Union.

None of this applies to the DPRK, as best as can be determined, because of lil' Kim's success is controlling the North Korean national identity and organizing it around an immense cult of personality, as well as circumstances on both sides conspiring to keep daily interaction extremely low.
 
Shakey

Shakey

If something does happen, why does everyone seem to think we will have a unified korea? If we are so dependent on china being the big brother to approve our actions, who's to say they wouldn't get control of the the north?
 
AshburnerX

AshburnerX

Dei said:
I don't think China actually *wants* North Korea to be part of China.
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This. China has more than enough on it's plate right now just trying to keep the flow of information tightly controlled in their borders and they are failing more each and every day. They really don't need more territory right now, especially territory that would be highly dependent on them for many years.
 
S

Soliloquy

Do you think that China just wants N. Korea to be a geographical buffer between China and the highly-advanced outside world? That would explain why they reacted so violently to us chasing N. Korea to the border in the first Korean war, and why they want it still around despite all the issues that come from its existence?
 
AshburnerX

AshburnerX

Soliloquy said:
Do you think that China just wants N. Korea to be a geographical buffer between China and the highly-advanced outside world? That would explain why they reacted so violently to us chasing N. Korea to the border in the first Korean war, and why they want it still around despite all the issues that come from its existence?
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But then question is when does this buffer outweigh it's usefulness? China can't deny its people access to the outside world for much longer, as we already have Americans smuggling in software to bypass filtering software in other closed regimes (the news of the Iranian elections last year was largely provided by people using such software). They can't keep it up forever, and force of arms won't stop it.
 
C

Chibibar

The thing about China is also about "face" and pride. China has maintain this so far and don't want to lose now. They didn't lose back in the 50s when backing N.Korea. It would look bad if they lose N.Korea now. Chinese have a LONG memory when it comes to people making them lose face. It is not a good thing.
 
Dave

Dave

Staff member
You guys realize that Jonzac has more metal on his uniform than there is in most of our houses, right?

While you guys have good thoughts and ideas I'm going to side with him as he's kind of the expert on NK's saber rattling.
 
SpecialKO

SpecialKO

Dave said:
You guys realize that Jonzac has more metal on his uniform than there is in most of our houses, right?
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Damn modern building materials!

Seriously, though, I hope he's right. The idea that the DPRK could say, "fuck it" and go crazy scares the crap out of me.
 
I

Iaculus

Shakey said:
If something does happen, why does everyone seem to think we will have a unified korea? If we are so dependent on china being the big brother to approve our actions, who's to say they wouldn't get control of the the north?
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If something does happen, why does everyone seem to think we will have a Korea at all? Even without nukes, the DPRK has a nation-destroying quantity of artillery pointed south. It seems to be conventional military wisdom that Seoul, at least, will be utterly flattened within minutes of hostilities breaking out.

North Korea isn't a country - it's the biggest fortress on the planet, and even if it only lasts a day before being crushed, the amount of damage it can inflict in that time is incalculable.
 
J

Jonzac

Seoul to the Han river would be hammered in the first 7 days. In fact, reduction of that threat is an important item, obviously. DPRK scuds and missiles/WMDs aren't really there to destroy ROK cities and such...but to ensure that the U.N. can't get additional forces into the country.

Although, I'm positive the ROK can stop the DPRK....they may take Seoul, but I don't see them getting South of the Han river again.

Editted:

I just thought I would say that it is NOT out of the realm of possiblity that the North could attack...My personal opinion is they will not, for several reasons...some of which I'm not going to post on a forum. I could be wrong...I hope I'm not, we certainly would have a hard time shifting forces to meet the threat...and more importantly I'm at the fucking Pentagon instead of with my old F-15E wing.
 
S

Soliloquy

Dave said:
You guys realize that Jonzac has more metal on his uniform than there is in most of our houses, right?

While you guys have good thoughts and ideas I'm going to side with him as he's kind of the expert on NK's saber rattling.
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Pfft, this is the internet, Dave. We're going to disagree with him out of pride.
 
C

Chibibar

Jonzac said:
Seoul to the Han river would be hammered in the first 7 days. In fact, reduction of that threat is an important item, obviously. DPRK scuds and missiles/WMDs aren't really there to destroy ROK cities and such...but to ensure that the U.N. can't get additional forces into the country.

Although, I'm positive the ROK can stop the DPRK....they may take Seoul, but I don't see them getting South of the Han river again.

Editted:

I just thought I would say that it is NOT out of the realm of possiblity that the North could attack...My personal opinion is they will not, for several reasons...some of which I'm not going to post on a forum. I could be wrong...I hope I'm not, we certainly would have a hard time shifting forces to meet the threat...and more importantly I'm at the fucking Pentagon instead of with my old F-15E wing.
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Military Secret and all that Jazz ;)

I hope that NK and SK don't resume the war. after 50 years of new techology and economic buildup (mostly for SK) it would a total loss and regression if they did resume the fighting (plus all the new weapons available now)
 
S

Soliloquy

Chibibar;390211][QUOTE=Jonzac said:
Seoul to the Han river would be hammered in the first 7 days. In fact, reduction of that threat is an important item, obviously. DPRK scuds and missiles/WMDs aren't really there to destroy ROK cities and such...but to ensure that the U.N. can't get additional forces into the country.

Although, I'm positive the ROK can stop the DPRK....they may take Seoul, but I don't see them getting South of the Han river again.

Editted:

I just thought I would say that it is NOT out of the realm of possiblity that the North could attack...My personal opinion is they will not, for several reasons...some of which I'm not going to post on a forum. I could be wrong...I hope I'm not, we certainly would have a hard time shifting forces to meet the threat...and more importantly I'm at the fucking Pentagon instead of with my old F-15E wing.
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Military Secret and all that Jazz ;)

I hope that NK and SK don't resume the war. after 50 years of new techology and economic buildup (mostly for SK) it would a total loss and regression if they did resume the fighting (plus all the new weapons available now)[/QUOTE]

Awwww, Jonzac, can't you leak classified information just once? For the sake of the Community?

 
S

Soliloquy

North Korea has threatened Wednesday to block cross-border traffic and blow up any South Korean loudspeakers blasting propaganda northward as tensions soared over the sinking of a South Korean warship.
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That would be... interesting.
 
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