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Obama shuns the Dalai Lama

Oct 6, 2009#1

Soliloquy

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/6262938/Barack-Obama-cancels-meeting-with-Dalai-Lama-to-keep-China-happy.html

President Barack Obama has refused to meet the Dalai Lama in Washington this week in a move to curry favour with the Chinese.

The decision came after China stepped up a campaign urging nations to shun the Tibetan spiritual leader.

It means Mr Obama will become the first president not to welcome the Nobel peace prize winner to the White House since the Dalai Lama began visiting Washington in 1991.

[...]

Mr Obama has changed his position on Tibet since his election campaign.

In April 2008, he was joined by Hillary Clinton, then his rival for the Democratic nomination and now his Secretary of State, in calling on George W Bush to boycott the Beijing Olympics opening ceremony in protest at the bloody repression of a popular uprising in Tibet.

\"If the Chinese do not take steps to help stop the genocide in Darfur and to respect the dignity, security, and human rights of the Tibetan people, then the President should boycott the opening ceremonies,\" they said.

...

What the fuck, Obama?

Oct 6, 2009#2

Shakey

Would be nice to actually see a reason from Obama instead of a whole lot of "he isn't meeting with the Dalai Lama so he must hate him"

Oct 6, 2009#3

strawman

Oh wow.

-Adam

Oct 6, 2009#4

Kitty Sinatra

Yeah, this seems like a poor idea domestically and will unlikely ever actually help with dealings with China anyway. I mean, China might get annoyed by such a visit but pragmatsm will still probably overrule that in all their other dealings with the States.

Oct 6, 2009#5

Soliloquy

Gruebeard said:
Yeah, this seems like a poor idea domestically and will unlikely ever actually help with dealings with China anyway. I mean, China might get annoyed by such a visit but pragmatsm will still probably overrule that in all their other dealings with the States.

Yeah, Obama pretty much just isolated the entire "Free Tibet" movement in one fell swoop.

No matter what his reasoning, this isn't going to bode well for his poll numbers, and will probably really hurt his chances with everything else he's trying to accomplish, i.e. insurance reform/pollution caps.

Oct 6, 2009#6

Terrik

I don't think it'll hurt his poll numbers at all. I don't think people care about Tibet as much as they claim, and a lot of the "Free Tibet" supporters I've personally met in many ways don't even realize what they're fighting for. I think this will be a little blip on the news radar and disappear in a week or less.

Oct 6, 2009#7

Soliloquy

Terrik said:
I don't think it'll hurt his poll numbers at all. I don't think people care about Tibet as much as they claim, and a lot of the "Free Tibet" supporters I've personally met in many ways don't even realize what they're fighting for. I think this will be a little blip on the news radar and disappear in a week or less.

A lot of the radical republicans don't realize what they're fighting for either, but that doesn't mean that they're any less rabid about their beliefs.

I fully expect the right-leaning media to make a big enough deal about this that a lot of people from the free Tibet movement are bound to take notice.

Oct 6, 2009#8

Terrik

Which is somewhat ironic, since a lot of the free Tibet people are largely liberal leaning in belief (which is a further irony, since Tibet pre-PRC was a theocracy). Right wingers will take a notice because its another shot at Obama and Left wingers will notice because its about heaven on Earth, aka Tibet. Still, I expect this to blow over. This will likely get a 15 second blurb on Hannity or something and be forgotten.

Oct 6, 2009#9

Kitty Sinatra

yeah, ditto.

Oct 6, 2009#10

Silvanesti

...awesome.

Oct 6, 2009#11

@Li3n

Soliloquy said:
\"http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/6262938/Barack-Obama-cancels-meeting-with-Dalai-Lama-to-keep-China-happy.html\"What the fuck, Obama?

As an evil socialist he just had to do it... it's in the charter...

Oct 6, 2009#12

Rob King

This makes me sad, but not nearly as sad as how quickly the passion for Tibet blew over last summer. Same thing for Myanmar.

Some days, it seems America ceased to be a force for good in this world a long time ago.

Oct 6, 2009#13

Shegokigo

*shrug*

Could give a fuck....

I'm sure they'll use this in a running campaign against him next election

"Wouldn't even meet with the Lama!"

Oct 6, 2009#14

Iaculus

Shegokigo said:
*shrug*

Could give a fuck....

I'm sure they'll use this in a running campaign against him next election

"Wouldn't even meet with the Lama!"

Lama drama?

:tina:

Oct 6, 2009#15

JCM

It happens all the time.

Oct 6, 2009#16

strawman

Given that he essentially ignored the June Fourth Incident (Tiananmen Square) on its 20th anniversary, it shouldn't surprise us.

Further, China has reasonably good relations with a few dictators in Asia and the Middle East that we are currently taking a very hard look at.

Lastly, China and Taiwan in particular play a very important role in our economy. If it came down to restoring Tibet vs keeping Taiwan free and unspoiled, I'd give Taiwan a higher priority.

I don't like it, but as important as Tibet is as a human rights issue there may well be issues that have a higher priority.

Further, the Chinese culture is different than ours. They may be willing to bend a little more on Tibet if we put China first - otherwise they may feel the need to oppress Tibet in order to save face and demonstrate they are first. By us acknowledging it, they may not need to demonstrate it.

It's a different tactic, and we should well remember:

"If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got."

Obama may not be doing it right, but at least he's not doing the same thing that has always failed before.

As a relatively right leaning person, I must now commit ritual seppekku.

-Adam

Oct 6, 2009#17

Covar

stienman said:
Given that he essentially ignored the June Fourth Incident (Tiananmen Square) on its 20th anniversary, it shouldn't surprise us.

Further, China has reasonably good relations with a few dictators in Asia and the Middle East that we are currently taking a very hard look at.

Lastly, China and Taiwan in particular play a very important role in our economy. If it came down to restoring Tibet vs keeping Taiwan free and unspoiled, I'd give Taiwan a higher priority.

I don't like it, but as important as Tibet is as a human rights issue there may well be issues that have a higher priority.

Further, the Chinese culture is different than ours. They may be willing to bend a little more on Tibet if we put China first - otherwise they may feel the need to oppress Tibet in order to save face and demonstrate they are first. By us acknowledging it, they may not need to demonstrate it.

It's a different tactic, and we should well remember:

"If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got."

Obama may not be doing it right, but at least he's not doing the same thing that has always failed before.

As a relatively right leaning person, I must now commit ritual seppekku.

-Adam

US Presidents have been meeting with Dalai Lama since 1991. How exactly has that hurt our relationships with China? What has changed between all those years and this one?

Oct 6, 2009#18

strawman

Covar;270042][quote=stienman said:
"If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got."

US Presidents have been meeting with Dalai Lama since 1991. How exactly has that hurt our relationships with China? What has changed between all those years and this one?[/QUOTE]

That's exactly the point. NOTHING has changed. It's been 18 years of the same meetings, and nothing has happened.

Do you think that doing the same thing this year will yield different results? What is so special about this year that means we'll make progress on Tibet by doing the same thing that has been done in the past?

I'm not saying that this change will have better results, but at least he's trying something different. You can only climb up the wrong wall so many times before people start to wonder why you aren't climbing up other walls to see if they are any better.

-Adam

Oct 6, 2009#19

Covar

yea you're right. Showing support is completely pointless.

---------- Post added at 12:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:26 PM ----------

lets put it this way.

Meeting with the Dalai Lama would have no change on our relationship with China, helps the Dalai Lama.

Not meeting with the Dalai Lama would have no change on our relationship with China, does not help the Dalai Lama.

Oct 6, 2009#20

Armadillo

The bigger issue seems to be alienation of our long-standing allies. Yes, I know Tibet isn't a country, but the Brits are steamed at us right now because the White House weren't returning their calls in August, Obama wouldn't meet with Gordon Brown before or at G-20, Israel is feeling increasingly isolated from us, there was some kerfuffle about Germany and Afghanistan a couple of months ago, no US representative was at the 60th anniversary of the Polish invasion because "nobody was available," we essentially tossed Poland and the Czech Republic under the bus by withdrawing the missile shield, and on and on.

I know Obama likes to think he's reshaping the world, but that's awfully hard to do if you're pissing off the countries who weren't pissed off at you before.

Oct 6, 2009#21

Shegokigo

Oct 6, 2009#22

Iaculus

Armadillo said:
The bigger issue seems to be alienation of our long-standing allies. Yes, I know Tibet isn't a country, but the Brits are steamed at us right now because the White House weren't returning their calls in August, Obama wouldn't meet with Gordon Brown before or at G-20, Israel is feeling increasingly isolated from us, there was some kerfuffle about Germany and Afghanistan a couple of months ago, no US representative was at the 60th anniversary of the Polish invasion because "nobody was available," we essentially tossed Poland and the Czech Republic under the bus by withdrawing the missile shield, and on and on.

I know Obama likes to think he's reshaping the world, but that's awfully hard to do if you're pissing off the countries who weren't pissed off at you before.

I wouldn't worry too much about Gordo.

Everyone here's ignoring the poor sod too.

Oct 6, 2009#23

North_Ranger

You think everything Dalai Lama does is a mess now? Think about what will happen when the red-and-orange-clad baldie kicks the bucket and people start looking for his next reincarnation.

Oct 6, 2009#24

Krisken

Wait, we have allies?

Oct 6, 2009#25

AshburnerX

North_Ranger said:
You think everything Dalai Lama does is a mess now? Think about what will happen when the red-and-orange-clad baldie kicks the bucket and people start looking for his next reincarnation.

We already know who the next incarnation is.

Oct 6, 2009#26

Terrik

Meeting with the Dalai Lama would have no change on our relationship with China, helps the Dalai Lama.

Meeting with the Dali Lama doesn't do much for his cause either. The Dali Lama is a media star but lets be honest, does anyone actually believe that China will ever somehow grant Tibet independent status or do anything different than they're already doing because western leaders meet with the Dali lama or without western leaders putting huge economic and political pressure on China (which they won't)? In many ways the "free Tibet" cause is lost and even the Dali Lama no longer wants total independence. I think what Obama is doing here is right, simply because there's absolutely no reason to piss off the Chinese over something you're not going to gain ground on anyhow and just about everyone knows it.

Oct 6, 2009#27

drawn_inward

I doubt it would affect his presidency either way. I bet the majority of Americans don't even know who the Dalai Lama is.

Oct 6, 2009#28

Krisken

drawn_inward said:
I doubt it would affect his presidency either way. I bet the majority of Americans don't even know who the Dalai Lama is.

He's the guy who stiffed Bill Murry his tip in Caddy Shack.

Oct 6, 2009#29

SpecialKO

According to the article in the OP, it seems the White House have been trying to work the scheduling out for months, holding off on meeting the DL until after he heads to China first.

While it falls on the unpalatable side, that just sounds like diplomacy to me.

Oct 6, 2009#30

HowDroll

drawn_inward said:
I doubt it would affect his presidency either way. I bet the majority of Americans don't even know who the Dalai Lama is.

Oct 7, 2009#31

Armadillo

Krisken;270409][quote=drawn_inward said:
I doubt it would affect his presidency either way. I bet the majority of Americans don't even know who the Dalai Lama is.

He's the guy who stiffed Bill Murry his tip in Caddy Shack.[/QUOTE]

True, but on his death bed, Bill will achieve total consciousness.

Oct 7, 2009#32

strawman

Armadillo;270626][quote=Krisken;270409][quote=drawn_inward said:
I doubt it would affect his presidency either way. I bet the majority of Americans don't even know who the Dalai Lama is.

Oct 7, 2009#33

Armadillo

stienman;271079][quote=Armadillo;270626][quote=Krisken;270409][quote=drawn_inward said:
I doubt it would affect his presidency either way. I bet the majority of Americans don't even know who the Dalai Lama is.

He's the guy who stiffed Bill Murry his tip in Caddy Shack.[/quote]

True, but on his death bed, Bill will achieve total consciousness.[/QUOTE]

...because he won't be able to reach the bottle.

-Adam[/QUOTE]

*sigh*

SLAPSLAPSLAPSLAPSLAPSLAPSLAPSLAPPITY

BAD stienman! BAD NOT-FINISHING-THE-QUOTE stienman!!!

Oct 7, 2009#34

Krisken

Armadillo;270626][quote=Krisken;270409][quote=drawn_inward said:
I doubt it would affect his presidency either way. I bet the majority of Americans don't even know who the Dalai Lama is.

He's the guy who stiffed Bill Murry his tip in Caddy Shack.[/quote]

True, but on his death bed, Bill will achieve total consciousness.[/QUOTE]
Which is nice.

Take notes, stienman.

Oct 7, 2009#35

Armadillo

Krisken;271231][quote=Armadillo;270626][quote=Krisken;270409][quote=drawn_inward said:
I doubt it would affect his presidency either way. I bet the majority of Americans don't even know who the Dalai Lama is.

He's the guy who stiffed Bill Murry his tip in Caddy Shack.[/quote]

True, but on his death bed, Bill will achieve total consciousness.[/QUOTE]
Which is nice.

Take notes, stienman.[/QUOTE]

Actually, you're wrong, too.

The next line is "So I have that going for me," followed by, "which is nice."

My Shack-fu is strong.

Oct 7, 2009#36

Krisken

The puking armadillo is right. I was at least partway there.

Oct 7, 2009#37

Armadillo

Krisken said:
The puking armadillo is right. I was at least partway there.

You were on the pathway. stienman didn't even try, but I bet he was something before electricity!

/Dangerfield

Oct 8, 2009#38

Krisken

Armadillo;271271][quote=Krisken said:
The puking armadillo is right. I was at least partway there.

You were on the pathway. stienman didn't even try, but I bet he was something before electricity!

/Dangerfield[/QUOTE]
I bet he'd earn $14. The hard way.

Oct 8, 2009#39

strawman

Krisken;271417][quote=Armadillo;271271][quote=Krisken said:
The puking armadillo is right. I was at least partway there.

You were on the pathway. stienman didn't even try, but I bet he was something before electricity!

/Dangerfield[/quote]
I bet he'd earn $14. The hard way.[/QUOTE]

-Adam

Oct 8, 2009#40

Armadillo

stienman;271612][quote=Krisken;271417][quote=Armadillo;271271][quote=Krisken said:
The puking armadillo is right. I was at least partway there.

You were on the pathway. stienman didn't even try, but I bet he was something before electricity!

/Dangerfield[/quote]
I bet he'd earn $14. The hard way.[/QUOTE]

-Adam[/QUOTE]

Now I know why tigers eat their young!

Oct 8, 2009#41

JCM

Being Chinese there are some thing in our culture that I'm ashamed of One is of "face"

Obama wants to deal with China. China is all about face. If you make China lose face, they will do what it takes to regain it. China has the upper hand right now. How? They are the one buying up the bonds that support our deficite. They hold the cards (or don't buy it seems) also China produce and have access to produce many goods that U.S. use today.

There is no economical impact (at least not by much IMO) of Obama siding with the Dalai Lama other than a moral or spiritual one. At the end of the day, most of us would probably want to save a buck vs spending 10times more elsewhere just for moral reasons (I use "us" as a general terms, some of y'all might actually would spend more if they were 10 times more just for moral reasons)

Pretty much this.

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