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Kitty Sinatra
Yeah, this seems like a poor idea domestically and will unlikely ever actually help with dealings with China anyway. I mean, China might get annoyed by such a visit but pragmatsm will still probably overrule that in all their other dealings with the States.
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Soliloquy
Yeah, Obama pretty much just isolated the entire "Free Tibet" movement in one fell swoop.
No matter what his reasoning, this isn't going to bode well for his poll numbers, and will probably really hurt his chances with everything else he's trying to accomplish, i.e. insurance reform/pollution caps.
I don't think it'll hurt his poll numbers at all. I don't think people care about Tibet as much as they claim, and a lot of the "Free Tibet" supporters I've personally met in many ways don't even realize what they're fighting for. I think this will be a little blip on the news radar and disappear in a week or less.
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Soliloquy
A lot of the radical republicans don't realize what they're fighting for either, but that doesn't mean that they're any less rabid about their beliefs.
I fully expect the right-leaning media to make a big enough deal about this that a lot of people from the free Tibet movement are bound to take notice.
Which is somewhat ironic, since a lot of the free Tibet people are largely liberal leaning in belief (which is a further irony, since Tibet pre-PRC was a theocracy). Right wingers will take a notice because its another shot at Obama and Left wingers will notice because its about heaven on Earth, aka Tibet. Still, I expect this to blow over. This will likely get a 15 second blurb on Hannity or something and be forgotten.
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Kitty Sinatra
yeah, ditto.
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Silvanesti
...awesome.
As an evil socialist he just had to do it... it's in the charter...
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Iaculus
J
JCM
It happens all the time.
Given that he essentially ignored the June Fourth Incident (Tiananmen Square) on its 20th anniversary, it shouldn't surprise us.
Further, China has reasonably good relations with a few dictators in Asia and the Middle East that we are currently taking a very hard look at.
Lastly, China and Taiwan in particular play a very important role in our economy. If it came down to restoring Tibet vs keeping Taiwan free and unspoiled, I'd give Taiwan a higher priority.
I don't like it, but as important as Tibet is as a human rights issue there may well be issues that have a higher priority.
Further, the Chinese culture is different than ours. They may be willing to bend a little more on Tibet if we put China first - otherwise they may feel the need to oppress Tibet in order to save face and demonstrate they are first. By us acknowledging it, they may not need to demonstrate it.
It's a different tactic, and we should well remember:
"If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got."
Obama may not be doing it right, but at least he's not doing the same thing that has always failed before.
As a relatively right leaning person, I must now commit ritual seppekku.
-Adam
Further, China has reasonably good relations with a few dictators in Asia and the Middle East that we are currently taking a very hard look at.
Lastly, China and Taiwan in particular play a very important role in our economy. If it came down to restoring Tibet vs keeping Taiwan free and unspoiled, I'd give Taiwan a higher priority.
I don't like it, but as important as Tibet is as a human rights issue there may well be issues that have a higher priority.
Further, the Chinese culture is different than ours. They may be willing to bend a little more on Tibet if we put China first - otherwise they may feel the need to oppress Tibet in order to save face and demonstrate they are first. By us acknowledging it, they may not need to demonstrate it.
It's a different tactic, and we should well remember:
"If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got."
Obama may not be doing it right, but at least he's not doing the same thing that has always failed before.
As a relatively right leaning person, I must now commit ritual seppekku.
-Adam
US Presidents have been meeting with Dalai Lama since 1991. How exactly has that hurt our relationships with China? What has changed between all those years and this one? US Presidents have been meeting with Dalai Lama since 1991. How exactly has that hurt our relationships with China? What has changed between all those years and this one?[/QUOTE]That's exactly the point. NOTHING has changed. It's been 18 years of the same meetings, and nothing has happened.
Do you think that doing the same thing this year will yield different results? What is so special about this year that means we'll make progress on Tibet by doing the same thing that has been done in the past?
I'm not saying that this change will have better results, but at least he's trying something different. You can only climb up the wrong wall so many times before people start to wonder why you aren't climbing up other walls to see if they are any better.
-Adam
yea you're right. Showing support is completely pointless.
---------- Post added at 12:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:26 PM ----------
lets put it this way.
Meeting with the Dalai Lama would have no change on our relationship with China, helps the Dalai Lama.
Not meeting with the Dalai Lama would have no change on our relationship with China, does not help the Dalai Lama.
---------- Post added at 12:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:26 PM ----------
lets put it this way.
Meeting with the Dalai Lama would have no change on our relationship with China, helps the Dalai Lama.
Not meeting with the Dalai Lama would have no change on our relationship with China, does not help the Dalai Lama.
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Armadillo
The bigger issue seems to be alienation of our long-standing allies. Yes, I know Tibet isn't a country, but the Brits are steamed at us right now because the White House weren't returning their calls in August, Obama wouldn't meet with Gordon Brown before or at G-20, Israel is feeling increasingly isolated from us, there was some kerfuffle about Germany and Afghanistan a couple of months ago, no US representative was at the 60th anniversary of the Polish invasion because "nobody was available," we essentially tossed Poland and the Czech Republic under the bus by withdrawing the missile shield, and on and on.
I know Obama likes to think he's reshaping the world, but that's awfully hard to do if you're pissing off the countries who weren't pissed off at you before.
I know Obama likes to think he's reshaping the world, but that's awfully hard to do if you're pissing off the countries who weren't pissed off at you before.
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Iaculus
North_Ranger
Staff member
You think everything Dalai Lama does is a mess now? Think about what will happen when the red-and-orange-clad baldie kicks the bucket and people start looking for his next reincarnation.
Meeting with the Dali Lama doesn't do much for his cause either. The Dali Lama is a media star but lets be honest, does anyone actually believe that China will ever somehow grant Tibet independent status or do anything different than they're already doing because western leaders meet with the Dali lama or without western leaders putting huge economic and political pressure on China (which they won't)? In many ways the "free Tibet" cause is lost and even the Dali Lama no longer wants total independence. I think what Obama is doing here is right, simply because there's absolutely no reason to piss off the Chinese over something you're not going to gain ground on anyhow and just about everyone knows it.
I doubt it would affect his presidency either way. I bet the majority of Americans don't even know who the Dalai Lama is.
He's the guy who stiffed Bill Murry his tip in Caddy Shack.
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Armadillo
He's the guy who stiffed Bill Murry his tip in Caddy Shack.[/QUOTE]
True, but on his death bed, Bill will achieve total consciousness.
He's the guy who stiffed Bill Murry his tip in Caddy Shack.[/quote]
True, but on his death bed, Bill will achieve total consciousness.[/QUOTE]
...because he won't be able to reach the bottle.
-Adam
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Armadillo
He's the guy who stiffed Bill Murry his tip in Caddy Shack.[/quote]
True, but on his death bed, Bill will achieve total consciousness.[/QUOTE]
...because he won't be able to reach the bottle.
-Adam[/QUOTE]
*sigh*
SLAPSLAPSLAPSLAPSLAPSLAPSLAPSLAPPITY
BAD stienman! BAD NOT-FINISHING-THE-QUOTE stienman!!!
He's the guy who stiffed Bill Murry his tip in Caddy Shack.[/quote]
True, but on his death bed, Bill will achieve total consciousness.[/QUOTE]
Which is nice.
Take notes, stienman.
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Armadillo
He's the guy who stiffed Bill Murry his tip in Caddy Shack.[/quote]
True, but on his death bed, Bill will achieve total consciousness.[/QUOTE]
Which is nice.
Take notes, stienman.[/QUOTE]
Actually, you're wrong, too.
The next line is "So I have that going for me," followed by, "which is nice."
My Shack-fu is strong.
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