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Ohio school shooter is sentenced, is also straight evil

Mar 19, 2013#1

Frank

http://abcnews.go.com/US/ohio-school-shooter-tj-lane-victims-families-finger/story?id=18763554

Ohio school shooter TJ Lane arrived at his sentencing hearing today wearing a blue button down shirt. After he sat down, he unbuttoned the shirt to reveal a white t-shirt with the word "killer" emblazoned across the front in black marker.

When Lane was given the opportunity to make a statement to the court, he made a short statement and then stuck his middle finger up in the courtroom filled with the loved ones of the three students he gunned down.

Lane, 18, smirked and smiled as family members of his victims called him "repulsive" and hoped for him to be locked up in a cage "like an animal" for the rest of his life.

"Frankly, I wasn't prepared for this," the prosecutor said moments after Lane's gesture. He said the action was proof that Lane is a "disgusting human being."

"This is confirming what we have known all along, that this was a cold, calculated, premeditated killing," the prosecutor said.

The judge sentenced Lane to life imprisonment without parole. Lane chuckled at the sentence.

Lane killed three students during a Feb. 27, 2012 rampage at Chardon High School. Daniel Parmertor, 16, Demetrius Hewlin, 16, and Russell King Jr., 17, were all killed. When he was captured a short time later he was wearing a grey shirt with the word "killer" written on the front.

Lane's defense attorney told the court that he "strongly urged" Lane not say what he was about to the court, but Lane proceeded anyway.

Lane smiled as a mother who lost her son said she is cynical now and devastated. She wished an "extremely slow, torturous death" for him.

"You don't deserve to take another breath while my 16-year-old son Danny lies in the cold, hard ground," Daniel Parmertor's mother said.

Lane plead guilty on Feb. 26 and faces life in prison.

"This hand that pulled the trigger that killed your sons now masturbates to the memory. Fuck all of you."

You know, I am the opposite of the proponent of the death penalty but shit. This is enough for me to say, maybe this is what it's for.

Anyways, this is the kind of attention he wants, I feel shitty for even posting this.

Mar 19, 2013#2

Charlie Don't Surf

Calling him "evil" and a "monster" is kind of dismissive, in my opinion. He's still a teenager no matter how you cut this.

Also, I was going to be incredulous that I hadn't heard anything about this school mass shooting murder event, but then I remembered that it happened in America where there are too many mass gun killings on a regular basis to be able to keep them all straight.

Mar 19, 2013#3

Azurephoenix

What an arrogant little fuck. I honestly don't even know what to say...

Mar 19, 2013#4

Gilgamesh

He won't be arrogant for long in prison.

He'll be brought down plenty of notches.

In his butthole.

From all the prison rape.

Mar 19, 2013#5

sixpackshaker

Gilgamesh said:
He won't be arrogant for long in prison.

He'll be brought down plenty of notches.

In his butthole.

From all the prison rape.

I hate to burst your bubble, but prison rape is down across the board...

Mar 19, 2013#6

Gilgamesh

sixpackshaker said:
I hate to burst your bubble, but prison rape is down across the board...

Yep, but surprisingly not eliminated.

Mar 19, 2013#7

blotsfan

What a tragedy that his life has been ruined because of this.

Mar 19, 2013#8

Tress

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Calling him "evil" and a "monster" is kind of dismissive, in my opinion. He's still a teenager no matter how you cut this.

I want you to seriously think about the things he has done, and then think about his responses in court, and say with a straight face that he's just some teenager who's lost on the wrong path in life. He's a fucking sociopath. He's beyond help, and certainly beyond pity. Some people are just broken. He's a perfect example.

Mar 19, 2013#9

Gared

I kind of have to agree with Charlie here. The smug-ass bastard in that picture doesn't say "evil" or "monster" to me. It says "smarmy, spoiled little shit who thinks he's king of all he sees, but who's going to learn a very, very unpleasant lesson once he gets to prison, whether he's on the receiving end of prison rape or not." Part of me would like to see him 20 years from now and see if any of that brash, egotistical kid is still there; but the rest of me doesn't want to be concerned about what some kid did in the courtroom 20 years previously.

Mar 19, 2013#10

Tress

blotsfan said:
What a tragedy that his life has been ruined because of this.

I didn't know you work for CNN!

Mar 19, 2013#11

sixpackshaker

Azurephoenix said:
What an arrogant little fuck. I honestly don't even know what to say...

Keep it on topic please. That is not a nice thing to say about a fellow poster.

Mar 19, 2013#12

Charlie Don't Surf

Gilgamesh said:
He won't be arrogant for long in prison.

He'll be brought down plenty of notches.

In his butthole.

From all the prison rape.

Rape isn't funny. This post is incredibly horrid.

Mar 19, 2013#13

Gilgamesh

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Rape isn't funny. This post is incredibly horrid.

Mar 19, 2013#14

Dave

Some people, I believe, can never be rehabilitated. This douchnozzle is one of them. I'd rather death penalty him than let him languish in prison, making the families of the victims pay through their tax dollars to not only house him, but feed him, give him medical attention and even allow him to get schooling. Had he shown even a modicum of remorse, I'd be with Charlie on this. As it stands, I'm with Gilgamesh.

Mar 19, 2013#15

strawman

Gilgamesh said:

WHAT IS WRONG WITH HIS THUMB.

Mar 19, 2013#16

tegid

What if he had shown a modicum of remorse only because he thought it benefited him? What if this is the opposite case? Maybe there's remorse there somewhere.
(I'm trying to make any point)

Mar 19, 2013#17

Azurephoenix

sixpackshaker said:
Keep it on topic please. That is not a nice thing to say about a fellow poster.

Charlie must have pressed the post button just a few seconds before me. Unintentional I assure you.

Mar 19, 2013#18

drawn_inward

stienman said:
WHAT IS WRONG WITH HIS THUMB.

He's a bollywood actor named Hrithik Roshan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrithik_Roshan#Personal_life

He's got as many thumbs as you have children. :hide:

He has one extra thumb. Must help when hitchhiking.

[DOUBLEPOST=1363731894][/DOUBLEPOST]As for the chump in the story, sociopath/misanthrope =/= angsty teen.

He needs to be separated from the herd. He needs to be prevented from mating. He needs to be prevented from voicing his views/beliefs.

Lock him in a dark hole, give him the 'no food'/protein drink diet, and walk away.

Mar 19, 2013#19

strawman

drawn_inward said:
He's a bollywood actor named Hrithik Roshan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrithik_Roshan#Personal_life

He's got as many thumbs as you have children.

He has one extra thumb. Must help when hitchhiking.

Oooh, that sounds handy! I have one child that won't hold my fingers, only my thumb. I often run out of thumbs while carrying things and walking with him.

Mar 19, 2013#20

Charlie Don't Surf

drawn_inward said:
Lock him in a dark hole, give him the 'no food'/protein drink diet, and walk away.

please see: Cruel and unusual punishment

Mar 19, 2013#21

ThatGrinningIdiot!

Again Charlie, you show how your belief's matter more to you than any actual human being. In your own little warped way, you're just as horrible as the monster pictured above.

Mar 19, 2013#22

Tress

ThatGrinningIdiot! said:
Again Charlie, you show how your belief's matter more to you than any actual human being. In your own little warped way, you're just as horrible as the monster pictured above.

Okay, whoa whoa whoa. Nothing Charlie has ever said compares to shooting three people in cold blood and laughing about it in court. I don't think it's fair to label Charlie like that just because he sees things differently from many of us here.

Mar 19, 2013#23

Charlie Don't Surf

ThatGrinningIdiot! said:
Again Charlie, you show how your belief's matter more to you than any actual human being. In your own little warped way, you're just as horrible as the monster pictured above.

Go on

Mar 19, 2013#24

Hailey Knight

stienman said:
Oooh, that sounds handy! I have one child that won't hold my fingers, only my thumb. I often run out of thumbs while carrying things and walking with him.

I think it's past time you upgraded to one of those dog walker multiple dog leashes.

Mar 20, 2013#25

CrimsonSoul

Tress said:
Okay, whoa whoa whoa. Nothing Charlie has ever said compares to shooting three people in cold blood and laughing about it in court. I don't think it's fair to label Charlie like that just because he sees things differently from many of us here.

No, but I do think the hand that charlie uses to incite rage on the forums is the same one he uses when he masterbates to the memory of said forum rage inducement.

Mar 20, 2013#26

Bones

I am unsure if this kid is a smarmy little shit about to get his ass handed to him by the american prison system or an actual true blooded sociopath where prison is simply a way to keep him out of the general american population. I get that those are conflicting views on the purpose of a penal system, but I know plenty of guy that while not quite on the level of murder were like that in high school. I am trying to say I don't know enough to tell if its that feeling of invincibility of age or something more sinister.

Mar 20, 2013#27

Frank

Bones said:
I am unsure if this kid is a smarmy little shit about to get his ass handed to him by the american prison system or an actual true blooded sociopath where prison is simply a way to keep him out of the general american population. I get that those are conflicting views on the purpose of a penal system, but I know plenty of guy that while not quite on the level of murder were like that in high school. I am trying to say I don't know enough to tell if its that feeling of invincibility of age or something more sinister.

There's a difference between being a smarmy fuckface of a teenager who didn't do his homework and a kid who actively mocks the parents of fellow students he's murdered.

Mar 20, 2013#28

Charlie Don't Surf

Frank said:
There's a difference between being a smarmy fuckface of a teenager who didn't do his homework and a kid who actively mocks the parents of fellow students he's murdered.

The difference is the United States Gun Culture and easy availability of firearms

Mar 20, 2013#29

Frank

I believe one of those may be true.

Mar 20, 2013#30

Bones

Frank said:
There's a difference between being a smarmy fuckface of a teenager who didn't do his homework and a kid who actively mocks the parents of fellow students he's murdered.

you are a police officer so you have seen this shit right? you got the kind of attitude I was trying to describe? I had friends that even in court for shit like assault, drug dealing, and other crimes that were defiant like he was. Now as I said, not murderers so I am not trying to undermine your point. On reconsideration I agree, and can find no other reason why he isn't a sociopath of some sort. I only considered it because I had a friend who was a criminal thug and had been sentenced for a multitude of crimes when he was a teenager is a much different man now 8 years later. Once again I am not saying it is the case here. I am just considering academically if it is a possibility.

Mar 20, 2013#31

Frank

I had a long story here, but I'm choosing to redact it.

I'll just say that no, it isn't that common for someone in real trouble to act like that. There's something very wrong with those that do.

Mar 20, 2013#32

Bones

cool, not a problem. I am not an authority on this and I am not trying to insinuate to you that I am, I appreciate your candor in explain it stuff to me politely. Seriously, I hope I am not coming off as arguing with you, because I am not trying to. My experience with law and justice relate to being the victim and not the accused. I politely stand down from my assertion and accept your statement sir.

Mar 20, 2013#33

Gilgamesh

Frank said:
I believe one of those may be true.

But Frank don't you know? Charlie Don't Surf knows way more about the criminal world and gun culture than a police officer. Silly Frank .

Mar 20, 2013#34

Charlie Don't Surf

Gilgamesh said:
But Frank don't you know? Charlie Don't Surf knows way more about the criminal world and gun culture than a police officer. Silly Frank .

I don't know anything about Frank or his macro-level opinions, but it's incredibly possible for someone to be a police officer and still fail to see the big picture in issues like these.

Mar 20, 2013#35

sixpackshaker

Fuck the criminals.

Mar 20, 2013#36

strawman

sixpackshaker said:
Fuck the criminals.

But sixpackshaker, don't you know that it's not their fault? This poor child didn't choose to murder the other students, he is merely a meat robot, and is acting out the programming that our culture gave him. The children brutally killed by him weren't victims at all - they are sacrifices to the US Gun God, and we revere and worship their valued contribution to furthering the cause of our Gun Culture.

Right, Charlie Don't Surf?

Mar 20, 2013#37

Gilgamesh

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I don't know anything about Frank or his macro-level opinions, but it's incredibly possible for someone to be a police officer and still fail to see the big picture in issues like these.

He was also in the military, but I'm sure your opinions are backed by much more life experience than both those things he has.

With Chaz gone, Charlie has really stepped up in the entertainment department I have to admit.

Mar 20, 2013#38

Azurephoenix

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I don't know anything about Frank or his macro-level opinions, but it's incredibly possible for someone to be a police officer and still fail to see the big picture in issues like these.

Hey Frank... I think Charlie Don't Surf just gave you a compliment.

Mar 20, 2013#39

Charlie Don't Surf

I don't know how you're construing that it isn't his fault. He's still a bad person, he still deserves a long, long prison sentence. I don't see what's so absurd in my statement that the NRA's wet dream America made it easier for this bad person to kill several people at once.

Mar 20, 2013#40

Bowielee

stienman said:
But sixpackshaker, don't you know that it's not their fault? This poor child didn't choose to murder the other students, he is merely a meat robot, and is acting out the programming that our culture gave him. The children brutally killed by him weren't victims at all - they are sacrifices to the US Gun God, and we revere and worship their valued contribution to furthering the cause of our Gun Culture.

Right, Charlie Don't Surf?

I know you're being snarky, but there are many aspects of behavior that are motivated by situational factors, including anti-social behavior. I'm not saying to blame it all on society, just that it's foolhardy to assume that it's not a major factor.

Mar 20, 2013#41

Frank

Gilgamesh said:
He was also in the military, but I'm sure your opinions are backed by much more life experience than both those things he has.

With Chaz gone, Charlie has really stepped up in the entertainment department I have to admit.

No, I'm the popo that wasn't in the military. I was a fat nerd (this almost literally was my profession) before becoming a member. I'm still a nerd, as I am reminded by coworkers constantly, just less fat.

Mar 20, 2013#42

Necronic

I find myself agreeing with Charlie more in this thread than any other. All of you seem to have value systems that are based entirely on your personal views in a situation.

I'm against the death penalty. Unless I'm not.
I'm against Cruel and Unusual Punishment. Unless I'm not.

Here's the thing. You either believe in the absolute rights of prisoners. Or you don't. There isn't a middle ground. It doesn't matter what the person did. JUSTICE IS BLIND. This statement works both ways. To have a free country you must also have a completely dispassionate justice system, something I'm glad we have.

I'm glad that he'll get life in prison. I hope that he is not abused, for the same reason I hope that NO prisoners are abused. Because this isn't me acting out some six-steps-removed self-righteous revenge fantasy.

Mar 20, 2013#43

Gilgamesh

Necronic said:
I find myself agreeing with Charlie more in this thread than any other. All of you seem to have value systems that are based entirely on your personal views in a situation.

Opinions are based on personal views because it's your own ideas creating your position. That's why they're opinions. Facts are different.

Mar 20, 2013#44

Eriol

Necronic said:
To have a free country you must also have a completely dispassionate justice system, something I'm glad we have.

I get less and less certain of this all the time, since blind justice seems to have less and less resemblance to justice in any form, and with no justice, I can't see freedom as what we have either, unless it's just the freedom to live in fear, which isn't freedom as we probably want it. I see your points, and most days I agree with your whole post, but sometimes... I just don't. Maybe that makes me a worse person. Or a better one. Or something. But I can't see discarding feelings as a good thing. Sometimes we have to, but maybe sometimes we really shouldn't.

Mar 20, 2013#45

Bowielee

Eriol said:
I get less and less certain of this all the time, since blind justice seems to have less and less resemblance to justice in any form, and with no justice, I can't see freedom as what we have either, unless it's just the freedom to live in fear, which isn't freedom as we probably want it. I see your points, and most days I agree with your whole post, but sometimes... I just don't. Maybe that makes me a worse person. Or a better one. Or something. But I can't see discarding feelings as a good thing. Sometimes we have to, but maybe sometimes we really shouldn't.

Are you sure that you're not confusing vengeance with justice? That seems to be a common thing.

Mar 20, 2013#46

Dave

Bowielee said:
Are you sure that you're not confusing vengeance with justice? That seems to be a common thing.

Why can't it be both?

Mar 20, 2013#47

Eriol

Bowielee said:
Are you sure that you're not confusing vengeance with justice? That seems to be a common thing.

No, I'm talking about rapists getting less sentences than people who commit copyright infringement (and very little of it at that), and a greater focus on the rights of the perpetrators than the safety of the public at large (let alone the victims).

Mar 20, 2013#48

Azurephoenix

As a parent myself I am totally horrified by this shooters actions. Parents should never have to bury their children... especially due to the murderous actions of a sociopathic shit sack. And the bullshit he's put them through during the sentencing? The things he's said to them? He's lucky he didn't get throttled to death in the courtroom.

Give the asshole life in prison. Solitary confinement. No chance of parole. He deserves worse in my opinion but that should at least keep him from taking more lives.

Mar 20, 2013#49

Bowielee

Dave said:
Why can't it be both?

They seldomly are the same.

Mar 20, 2013#50

DarkAudit

Send him to Supermax. He gets a shower, a toilet, three meals a day, and an hour outside. That's it. No TV, no radio, no newspapers, no mail. No human contact of any kind until the day they take his corpse out of the cell and chucks him in an unmarked hole in the ground.

Mar 20, 2013#51

strawman

Bowielee said:
I know you're being snarky, but there are many aspects of behavior that are motivated by situational factors, including anti-social behavior. I'm not saying to blame it all on society, just that it's foolhardy to assume that it's not a major factor.

Well of course society impacts the individual, and this is intentional.

Yes, we need to change society and our own culture to root out problems within it that ultimately harm us as a society and individually.

There are, however, people who do not wish to participate in society according to the rules. Some are harmless. Some are not. Society has a self interest in excluding harmful people from itself.

Sometimes these harmful people are fully and completely a product of society. This is cyclical society destruction, and we have to work really hard to get rid of those teachings and concepts that produce such people. But they are rare.

Then there are people who would not fit into society even if society didn't harm them with poor teaching and concepts.

Some people, and I suspect Charlie Don't Surf is one of them, believe that the latter group do not exist. That a human newborn is essentially a blank slate, and if the correct programming is taught then they will never have a desire to hurt another human being, or society.

While I believe that the environment, teaching, upbringing, etc has a huge role in a human's desires and motivations, I believe that humans have inborn desires and motivations and are distinctly different from other humans at birth, and its upon that foundation that society must build.

Further, each of us is very different chemically, and while some of this is environmental (you are what you eat, breathe, and absorb) some is genetic. There are some who suffer from significant mental health problems who may not ever be able to adapt to society, even with medical help.

This persons behavior doesn't suggest, to me, a problem that is any less than a mental disease. I'm sure those around him recognize it, but he probably showed enough understanding to refuse psychological counseling, and he himself chose to plead guilty without asking for a guilty by reason of insanity plea which is probably what he actually deserves.

He is sick. He has no interest in being helped.

So all we can do is take his note to society, inscribed in the blood of others, as a sign of his desire to live separately from us.

And he will, until he gets help, or he dies.

Mar 20, 2013#52

Charlie Don't Surf

It's really fucking easy for those people that don't fit into society to go on mass murder rampages when assault weapons and just firearms in general are so prevalent in society.

Mar 20, 2013#53

Tress

Do you think all guns should be completely banned? Where do you draw the line in restricting citizen access to dangerous weapons/materials?

Mar 20, 2013#54

Azurephoenix

Charlie Don't Surf said:
It's really fucking easy for those people that don't fit into society to go on mass murder rampages when assault weapons and just firearms in general are so prevalent in society.

So what? If he had killed three people with a sharpened piece of rebar then it would be any different? What if he had burned the school to the ground while people suffocated to death inside? What if he chose to poison people? You are so hellbent on this firearm kick that you fail to realize there are other ways of taking lives and for people with malicious intent they will find a way.

Mar 20, 2013#55

Covar

Charlie lives in a world where all men are rapists just waiting for the opportunity, and anyone who kills people with firearms are just poor victims of the NRA and their collective wet dreams.

Mar 20, 2013#56

Bowielee

stienman said:
Well of course society impacts the individual, and this is intentional.

Yes, we need to change society and our own culture to root out problems within it that ultimately harm us as a society and individually.

There are, however, people who do not wish to participate in society according to the rules. Some are harmless. Some are not. Society has a self interest in excluding harmful people from itself.

Sometimes these harmful people are fully and completely a product of society. This is cyclical society destruction, and we have to work really hard to get rid of those teachings and concepts that produce such people. But they are rare.

Then there are people who would not fit into society even if society didn't harm them with poor teaching and concepts.

Some people, and I suspect Charlie Don't Surf is one of them, believe that the latter group do not exist. That a human newborn is essentially a blank slate, and if the correct programming is taught then they will never have a desire to hurt another human being, or society.

While I believe that the environment, teaching, upbringing, etc has a huge role in a human's desires and motivations, I believe that humans have inborn desires and motivations and are distinctly different from other humans at birth, and its upon that foundation that society must build.

Further, each of us is very different chemically, and while some of this is environmental (you are what you eat, breathe, and absorb) some is genetic. There are some who suffer from significant mental health problems who may not ever be able to adapt to society, even with medical help.

This persons behavior doesn't suggest, to me, a problem that is any less than a mental disease. I'm sure those around him recognize it, but he probably showed enough understanding to refuse psychological counseling, and he himself chose to plead guilty without asking for a guilty by reason of insanity plea which is probably what he actually deserves.

He is sick. He has no interest in being helped.

So all we can do is take his note to society, inscribed in the blood of others, as a sign of his desire to live separately from us.

And he will, until he gets help, or he dies.

It's extremely easy to say that there's something inherently evil in an individual, but that is a bit over simplistic. If you truly believed that, I'd be curious to know what would keep one of your children from becoming someone like this?

In decades of experimentation, the one thing that holds true in human beings is that we have a serious bias in regards to what our own, and other people's capacity for horrifying behavior is.

Sure, it's easy to just say that this particular kid is evil, but in doing that, you're dismissing the dangerous cocktail of situations that led to him becoming this monster.

Mar 20, 2013#57

Frank

Charlie has stated multiple times that the only use a gun has is to murder scoffing at any explanation and even going so far as to say that I deserved to die the time my grandpa shot a bear that was between the tent my brothers and I were in and the house he was in because we were in the bear's natural habitat. His stance on guns is black and white extreme to a silly degree.

Mar 20, 2013#58

Charlie Don't Surf

Azurephoenix said:
So what? If he had killed three people with a sharpened piece of rebar then it would be any different? What if he had burned the school to the ground while people suffocated to death inside? What if he chose to poison people? You are so hellbent on this firearm kick that you fail to realize there are other ways of taking lives and for people with malicious intent they will find a way.

If you honestly don't think that guns make it much much easier to take lives, you're a moron.

Mar 20, 2013#59

Azurephoenix

Charlie Don't Surf said:
If you honestly don't think that guns make it much much easier to take lives, you're a moron.

If you think that guns are the only way for violent people to take lives, you're a moron.

Mar 20, 2013#60

strawman

Bowielee said:
It's extremely easy to say that there's something inherently evil in an individual, but that is a bit over simplistic. If you truly believed that, I'd be curious to know what would keep one of your children from becoming someone like this?

In decades of experimentation, the one thing that holds true in human beings is that we have a serious bias in regards to what our own, and other people's capacity for horrifying behavior is.

Sure, it's easy to just say that this particular kid is evil, but in doing that, you're dismissing the dangerous cocktail of situations that led to him becoming this monster.

I don't think this is an all or nothing argument. I'm not saying that society didn't play its role in this person's decision to kill people.

Nor am I saying that this person was born this way, had no choice, and that nothing could have changed their path through life.

I am saying that you can't completely blame society for his choices, and you can't completely blame his genetics or inborn traits and motivations.

The answer lies somewhere inbetween.

When Charlie and others read this, and think "it's society's fault" I believe they are wrong, and that's the only point I'm trying to make.

Society needs to change to better support everyone, but to lay the blame of every bad thing a person does at the feet of society demonstrates a stunning lack of intelligence.

And it gets under my skin, but ultimately it's my fault for rising to his barbs.

Not society's fault.

Mar 20, 2013#61

Charlie Don't Surf

Azurephoenix said:
If you think that guns are the only way for violent people to take lives, you're a moron.

I've never even come close to implying such. Just that banning guns would make it harder for people to be murdered in swaths. And probably to be murdered period. Those hypotheticals have an astronomically higher degree of difficulty than pulling a trigger just a few times to fire off dozens of rounds.

Mar 20, 2013#62

Azurephoenix

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I've never even come close to implying such. Just that banning guns would make it harder for people to be murdered in swaths. And probably to be murdered period. Those hypotheticals have an astronomically higher degree of difficulty than pulling a trigger just a few times to fire off dozens of rounds.

Agreed, but assuming you take guns out of the equation... what's left when heavily sociopathic people lose their cool? It's just frustrating to discuss when you are so strongly fixated on one problem (for what it's worth Charlie I do believe that your laws on firearms in the USA need to be tightened up to some degree).

Also, improvised explosives and incendiary devices are not nearly as hard to manufacture as you might think.

Mar 20, 2013#63

sixpackshaker

Blame his dad, he had the genetics, and he abused the little twerp...

Mar 20, 2013#64

Bowielee

I'm not essentially even saying society. Situational factors can be collective (media, social mores, etc...), or they can be completely individualized (personal trauma, abuse, neglect, etc...). I'm not saying that it's an all or nothing situation either. What I'm trying to get across, is that what needs to be looked at is what in this individual case caused this behavior.

Another thing that I'd like to point out is that this kid and all school shootings are outliers (regardless of the media trying to portray it as an epidemic). Many more people are murdered by guns on a daily basis than these instances, but that is largely ignored due to people not being able to wrap their heads around that level of massive violence.

Mar 20, 2013#65

Charlie Don't Surf

Azurephoenix said:
Also, improvised explosives and incendiary devices are not nearly as hard to manufacture as you might think.

it always seems like whenever one of these people has their bigger master plan or explosives set at their apartment or whatever, the explosives part never goes off and never really hurts anyone.

the shooting people with guns part always works really well though

Mar 20, 2013#66

Dave

2/3 of all gun deaths are suicides, not homicides.

Mar 20, 2013#67

Bowielee

I know I'll probably get in trouble for this, but STFU Charlie.

It's really hard to have a rational discussion about this with you riling everyone up with your hyperbole.

Mar 20, 2013#68

ElJuski

You can be entirely sympathetic and understanding of the mental conditions of the accused while still be able to dole out justice. It's just as inane to type out some pithy "leave him in a hole and have him buttraped" comment as it is to whine about the cruelity being layed upon the convicted.

In other words, this is yet another tiresome Halforums thread that goes absolutely nowhere.

Mar 20, 2013#69

GasBandit

Even if Charlie's views on guns had any rhetorical merit, which they don't, he seems to be under the impression that the nation with the highest level of gun ownership per capita can put the genie back in the bottle. Let us know when you've found that magic wand that makes criminals obey gun control laws, Chuck.

Mar 20, 2013#70

Bowielee

GasBandit said:
Even if Charlie's views on guns had any rhetorical merit, which they don't, he seems to be under the impression that the nation with the highest level of gun ownership per capita can put the genie back in the bottle. Let us know when you've found that magic wand that makes criminals obey gun control laws, Chuck.

Or even non-criminals... just sayin'.

I've said it before, and I'm certain I'll say it again. Gun control laws in this country are nigh useless because the gun culture that drives it will ensure that they won't be enforced anyway. What needs to change is the fetishization of guns and gun violence.

In other words, gun violence is a symptom, not a root cause.

As you said, good luck with that.

Mar 20, 2013#71

GasBandit

Bowielee said:
Or even non-criminals... just sayin'.

I've said it before, and I'm certain I'll say it again. Gun control laws in this country are nigh useless because the gun culture that drives it will ensure that they won't be enforced anyway. What needs to change is the fetishization of guns and gun violence.

In other words, gun violence is a symptom, not a root cause.

As you said, good luck with that.

Even if America suddenly fell out of love with guns, criminals would still not obey gun control laws. The only people gun control disarms are the law abiding citizens you wouldn't have to fear owning guns in the first place. The cities with the strictest gun control laws are still the ones with the highest amounts of gun crime - the criminals are armed and the victims are not.

Meanwhile, states that issue concealed carry permits have lower violent crime rates, and those with right-to-carry laws have the lowest.

Mar 20, 2013#72

Bowielee

GasBandit said:
Even if America suddenly fell out of love with guns, criminals would still not obey gun control laws. The only people gun control disarms are the law abiding citizens you wouldn't have to fear owning guns in the first place. The cities with the strictest gun control laws are still the ones with the highest amounts of gun crime - the criminals are armed and the victims are not.

Meanwhile, states that issue concealed carry permits have lower violent crime rates, and those with right-to-carry laws have the lowest.

I'd like to see the stats to back that up. Not that I don't believe you, just that it's a big assertion to make without evidence.

Mar 20, 2013#73

GasBandit

Bowielee said:
I'd like to see the stats to back that up. Not that I don't believe you, just that it's a big assertion to make without evidence.

I was quoting an op ed from the Cato Institute, which, full disclosure, is a conservative think tank.

Mar 20, 2013#74

Bowielee

It also doesn't cite sources, which makes me question any article's claims, conservative or liberal.

Mar 20, 2013#75

GasBandit

Bowielee said:
It also doesn't cite sources, which makes me question any article's claims, conservative or liberal.

I'm sure hydrophobic chuck will be quick to point out that pretty much any right-wing article on the effects of gun control will largely draw from the work of John Lott, especially in this case, his book "More Guns, Less Crime."

Mar 20, 2013#76

Bowielee

That book is extremely contentious, as are the findings posited in it. I can't say one way or the other as different studies have shown different results. I'd like to see an impartial meta-analysis done, but I don't know if that's realistic given the agendas on both sides.

Mar 20, 2013#77

blotsfan

Kinda related, but kinda not. I can't stand the whole "It will take guns away from the law abiding citizens, but not the criminals" argument. It splits people into two categories that arent actually separate. Every criminal was a law abiding citizen at some point. You cant say "this man hasnt committed a crime, so he never will." There are countless examples of law abiding citizens killing people out of nowhere.

Mar 20, 2013#78

Bowielee

blotsfan said:
Kinda related, but kinda not. I can't stand the whole "It will take guns away from the law abiding citizens, but not the criminals" argument. It splits people into two categories that arent actually separate. Every criminal was a law abiding citizen at some point. You cant say "this man hasnt committed a crime, so he never will." There are countless examples of law abiding citizens killing people out of nowhere.

They come out of the womb smoking crack and trafficking drugs and whores. Didn't you know that? They're also easily identifiable by their black hats and domino masks.

I think that's what annoys me the most about discussions like these. People want to make black and white distinctions out of things that are WAY in the gray area.

Mar 20, 2013#79

Terrik

Bowielee said:
I'd like to see the stats to back that up. Not that I don't believe you, just that it's a big assertion to make without evidence.

Take a look at Richmond, California. Strict gun laws, most dangerous city in California, 8th in the nation.

Mar 20, 2013#80

Charlie Don't Surf

Terrik said:
Take a look at Richmond, California. Strict gun laws, most dangerous city in California, 8th in the nation.

you're doing it wrong, didn't you hear the latest talking points from Rush? The strict gun law evil crime city to bring up is Chicago.

Mar 20, 2013#81

Terrik

Charlie Don't Surf said:
you're doing it wrong, didn't you hear the latest talking points from Rush? The strict gun law evil crime city to bring up is Chicago.

I haven't listened to Rush since high school

Mar 20, 2013#82

Charlie Don't Surf

Terrik said:
I haven't listened to Rush since high school

Mar 20, 2013#83

Bowielee

Terrik said:
Take a look at Richmond, California. Strict gun laws, most dangerous city in California, 8th in the nation.

Correlation =! causation.

Pretty much the first rule of data analysis. One city is hardly a full sample size that can generalize back to the population.

Mar 20, 2013#84

AshburnerX

I think it would be better to look at how many registered gun owners actually use their guns to commit a crime. I'd be willing to bet most of those are crimes of passion, caused by mental illness, or suicides performed mostly with handguns and shotguns. I'd also be willing to bet that most registered assault weapons are NEVER used in a violent crime by their owners.

Mar 20, 2013#85

strawman

It's not impossible to go to a gun less state and significantly reduce gun related crime by doing so. But it can't happen until the government convinces the citizens that it is worthwhile.

So far that hasn't happened, but Obama sure is trying his darnedest to convince us.

Mar 20, 2013#86

GasBandit

Bowielee said:
They come out of the womb smoking crack and trafficking drugs and whores.

Actually, they ARE pretty identifiable... statistics show they come out of the womb with no present or future paternal influence. Single parents cause crime.

Mar 21, 2013#87

Charlie Don't Surf

stienman said:
So far that hasn't happened, but Obama sure is trying his darnedest to convince us.

Actually, no, the democratic party in congress nor even the white house are making any significant push to even ban assault weapons / high magazines. It's not even looking like there will be a vote on universal background checks.

Mar 21, 2013#88

strawman

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Actually, no, the democratic party in congress nor even the white house are making any significant push to even ban assault weapons / high magazines. It's not even looking like there will be a vote on universal background checks.

Well of course not. They cannot win those fights right now.

I don't think anyone is wearing rose colored glasses. They all know that it's something they have to fight in the public conscious to convince enough citizens that something more needs to be done. They have no footing legislatively to pass anything, so they're beating the pulpit right now.

Mar 21, 2013#89

sixpackshaker

Gun Control and violence levels is a bit like the argument that Diet Coke makes you fat because fat people drink Diet Coke. Maybe fat people drink Diet Coke because they are fat, and cities enact gun control laws because of violent crime.

Mar 21, 2013#90

GasBandit

sixpackshaker said:
Gun Control and violence levels is a bit like the argument that Diet Coke makes you fat because fat people drink Diet Coke. Maybe fat people drink Diet Coke because they are fat, and cities enact gun control laws because of violent crime.

Actually, I HAVE read that diet soda affects your gut flora in such a way that contributes to weight gain...

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