Oklahoma Passes New Abortion Legislation

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J

JONJONAUG

http://www.alternet.org/reproductiv...asound_and_collection_of_women's_private_data

Some choice parts:

One of the bills would force a woman to get an ultrasound at least one hour prior to an abortion and be shown the image and given a detailed explanation of it, even if she wishes otherwise. A vaginal probe would be used if it would provide a clearer image of the fetus, which no other state requires; three others do require ultrasounds, but none force the woman to listen to an explanation of it.

One last bill would require the woman to first answer a lengthy questionnaire and provide information such as her age, marital status, race, education and reason for seeking an abortion. The doctor would then report this information - without the patient's name attached, however - which would be compiled and put on a state web site and accessible only by certain government personnel.

After debate in the state senate that spanned most of Monday, all five bills passed with large majorities, three of which passed 35-11.

The Oklahoma legislature has attempted to make such abortion bills the law before. In 2008, it passed a measure that required women to get an ultrasound and hear a detailed description of it prior to having an abortion. This overrode a veto from Governor Henry, which he made on the grounds that there were no exceptions for rape or incest victims.
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Now I don't agree with the practice of abortion, but it is a legal medical procedure and this is a whole lot of unnecessary obstruction.

Some of them have been vetoed.

The Onion did a piece on this kind of stuff a while back and it's kinda funny how stuff that was done as satire years ago is becoming closer to reality today

EDIT: Vetoes overridden. Oklahoma now the worst state to get pregnant in if you cannot support a child for any reason, even in cases of rape or medical issues. It is legal for a doctor to outright lie to you about your pregnancy if it prevents you from getting an abortion.
 
I

Iaculus

Yeah - to be honest, it's hard to see this as anything other than an attempt at intimidation.

Piling extra pressure on folks who are already in a tough situation? Classy.
 
C

crono1224

Yay lets force a victim of rape to view her rapist baby and hear about the wonder that the rapist was able to create inside her (at least for one of the bills).

On another note it has some decent thoughts behind it, ie, making sure that the person is fully informed but lets be honest, unless they can rewind time they will never really know what it would have been like to have the kid.
 
drawn_inward

drawn_inward

I think the only reason why it was vetoed was due to the bill not making exceptions for rape and incest. I don't see the problem with the bill. Showing a person that you about to kill a living being should be done. It doesn't sound like intimidation. It's more like information.
 
Dave

Dave

Staff member
I love anti-abortion people. They get so fucking bent out of shape over the "murder of the helpless babies" yet after the kid is born they pack up their "give a shit" and leave, only to then rail against the very social programs that were put in place to help the people who may not have needed them if they'd have had a say in their own lives in the first place.

I'm not pro-abortion but I am EXTREMELY anti-"pro-life" activists and the bullshit they throw at us in the name of furthering the hatred of their intolerance.

---------- Post added at 10:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:15 AM ----------
dr_awkward said:
I think the only reason why it was vetoed was due to the bill not making exceptions for rape and incest. I don't see the problem with the bill. Showing a person that you about to kill a living being should be done. It doesn't sound like intimidation. It's more like information.
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If you think these women don't already know that or have not thought of that then you are being disingenuous. This law is adding an unnecessary cruelty to someone who is already in a terrible and heart-wrenching position.
 
C

Chazwozel

Dave said:
I love anti-abortion people. They get so fucking bent out of shape over the "murder of the helpless babies" yet after the kid is born they pack up their "give a shit" and leave, only to then rail against the very social programs that were put in place to help the people who may not have needed them if they'd have had a say in their own lives in the first place.

I'm not pro-abortion but I am EXTREMELY anti-"pro-life" activists and the bullshit they throw at us in the name of furthering the hatred of their intolerance.

---------- Post added at 10:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:15 AM ----------
dr_awkward said:
I think the only reason why it was vetoed was due to the bill not making exceptions for rape and incest. I don't see the problem with the bill. Showing a person that you about to kill a living being should be done. It doesn't sound like intimidation. It's more like information.
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If you think these women don't already know that or have not thought of that then you are being disingenuous. This law is adding an unnecessary cruelty to someone who is already in a terrible and heart-wrenching position.
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Pro-choice is not pro-abortion. It's about being pro-women have the right to chose what they want to do with their body. I am as anti-abortion as can possibly be and so is my wife, meaning that we would never abort any pregnancy she would have, but as far as other people, they can do what ever they see best fit for their situation.
 
D

Dubyamn

dr_awkward said:
I think the only reason why it was vetoed was due to the bill not making exceptions for rape and incest. I don't see the problem with the bill. Showing a person that you about to kill a living being should be done. It doesn't sound like intimidation. It's more like information.
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It sounds like a cruel kick in the teeth to somebody who is under incredibly stress to start with. The state should offer counciling to the women who want to undergo an abortion rather than showing them a picture of the fetus.

Forcing them to look a the fetus is cruel and sickening.
 
Espy

Espy

Dubyamn said:
Forcing them to look a the fetus is cruel and sickening.
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And the other side would argue so is killing it...
So I guess you just choose which one sickens/motivates/fits you more and support it. Thats honestly why no matter what side people choose I can't get all frothy and ragey over someone having ended up with a conviction on either side. This isn't like choosing between vanilla and chocolate, so I really can't blame you for feeling the way you do and I can't get angry at doc-awk there for viewing it the way he does.
 
GasBandit

GasBandit

Staff member
I'm in favor of legal abortion, and I don't think it's right to make the woman jump through excessive hoops for the procedure. Although, I do worry about what this will do in the long run. Some countries in Europe, as well as the nation of Japan, are suffering from declining populations. Japan is having to shut down schools left and right because there aren't enough children to merit keeping them open. In Europe, where they don't have the "fortress nation" mentality of the land of the rising sun, the voids are being filled by a massive influx of foreigners from the middle east, who are bringing their cultures with them and not integrating.

Could the US suffer such a "baby bust" in the future? I think so. Could abortion be a contributing factor? Yes, I think it could. But I'm a principle kind of guy. I still think we should do the right thing even in the face of such potential adversity. Guess it comes from being Libertarian.
 
I

Iaculus

GasBandit said:
I'm in favor of legal abortion, and I don't think it's right to make the woman jump through excessive hoops for the procedure. Although, I do worry about what this will do in the long run. Some countries in Europe, as well as the nation of Japan, are suffering from declining populations. Japan is having to shut down schools left and right because there aren't enough children to merit keeping them open. In Europe, where they don't have the \"fortress nation\" mentality of the land of the rising sun, the voids are being filled by a massive influx of foreigners from the middle east, who are bringing their cultures with them and not integrating.

Could the US suffer such a \"baby bust\" in the future? I think so. Could abortion be a contributing factor? Yes, I think it could. But I'm a principle kind of guy. I still think we should do the right thing even in the face of such potential adversity. Guess it comes from being Libertarian.
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Of course, Eastern Europe in particular has the lovely example of Romania as a disincentive to going too far against abortion.

Besides, suggesting a reduction in abortions in order to stop 'dem filthy Arabs' taking over seems... a disturbing line of argument, to say the least.
 
S

Steven Soderburgin

Yeah, it's terrible, invasive, and awful, and pretty much par for the course on anti-choice measures. Don't like abortion being legal but know that Roe v. Wade will never get overturned? Then just chip away at abortion rights as much as possible while still keeping the procedure itself technically legal, despite being prohibitively expensive (thanks, Hyde amendment!) and incredibly intimidating or difficult to access (some states only have one abortion provider, not to mention parental notification laws, invasive procedures like this bullshit, "informed consent" bullshit which always means "listen to a doctor read a script about how your fetus is a beautiful unique gift from God and how you are a monster for wanting to make decisions about your own body")
 
GasBandit

GasBandit

Staff member
Covar said:
So a fetus is part of a women's body now?
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I don't believe so, personally. I believe a fetus is a person. To me, however, mere personhood does not mean you are unilaterally forbidden from being killed. A fetus isn't a child any more than a child is an adult. There are situations in which we as a society agree that it is acceptable to terminate the life of a person. Once I had mentally gotten past that bit, it seemed illogical to say that abortion was killing a child.

I am pro-choice, and I am pro-death penalty. I believe that this is the only position on these issues one can take without being a hypocrite.
 
tegid

tegid

So, is a fecundated egg a person already? If not, when does it become so?

I think the first single cell that may later form a person is still not one, and that the point at which it acquires personhood is pretty much arbitrary, but we can try to use some logic and scientific knowledge to determine it a bit more meaningfully.

That said, I'm more or less against abortion at any stage because I see it as keeping a person from existing. Killing a potential person, if you want.
 
GasBandit

GasBandit

Staff member
tegid said:
So, is a fecundated egg a person already? If not, when does it become so?

I think the first single cell that may later form a person is still not one, and that the point at which it acquires personhood is pretty much arbitrary, but we can try to use some logic and scientific knowledge to determine it a bit more meaningfully.

That said, I'm more or less against abortion at any stage because I see it as keeping a person from existing. Killing a potential person, if you want.
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My fridge is full of potential beers, but the damn waveform won't collapse.

 
S

Steven Soderburgin

The bills were vetoed by the governor but the legislature voted again and overrode the vetoes.

Here's a fun thing!
The second measure passed into law Tuesday protects doctors from malpractice suits if they decide not to inform the parents of a unborn baby that the fetus has birth defects. The intent of the bill is to prevent parents from later suing doctors who withhold information to try to influence them against having an abortion
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So I wonder if this means that, when asked directly if a baby has birth defects, a doctor can just outright lie and say no. It seems like it! Oh, also, I wonder how much extra money has been budgeted to assist parents of special needs children.

sooooo all in all pretty terrible!
 
C

Chibibar

GasBandit said:
I'm in favor of legal abortion, and I don't think it's right to make the woman jump through excessive hoops for the procedure. Although, I do worry about what this will do in the long run. Some countries in Europe, as well as the nation of Japan, are suffering from declining populations. Japan is having to shut down schools left and right because there aren't enough children to merit keeping them open. In Europe, where they don't have the "fortress nation" mentality of the land of the rising sun, the voids are being filled by a massive influx of foreigners from the middle east, who are bringing their cultures with them and not integrating.

Could the US suffer such a "baby bust" in the future? I think so. Could abortion be a contributing factor? Yes, I think it could. But I'm a principle kind of guy. I still think we should do the right thing even in the face of such potential adversity. Guess it comes from being Libertarian.
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I don't think it will effect the US as much. It has been around and we still have a lot of people. Heck look at China. There are pro-abortion and they are STILL overpopulate.

As for Japan, it is more of a culture rather than abortion. They are VERY VERY VERY VERY restrictive of who they "let in" their little society. There was a video on this forum regarding how Japanese treat other "non-full-blooded-Japanese" and heck, don't even start talking about men and women in Japan dating/marrying a Gaijin.
 
J

JONJONAUG

Steven Soderburgin said:
So I wonder if this means that, when asked directly if a baby has birth defects, a doctor can just outright lie and say no. It seems like it! Oh, also, I wonder how much extra money has been budgeted to assist parents of special needs children.
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This is exactly what this means.

It also requires invasive ultrasounds before getting an abortion even in cases of rape.

Oklahoma is now competing with Arizona for "most retarded state in the Union".
 
S

Steven Soderburgin

"Sorry ma'am I know you've been raped and became pregnant, but here, I just have to stick this thing inside you so you can see what a beautiful treasure God and your rapist have given you"
 
K

Kitty Sinatra

So . . . what sort of doctor wouldn't tell a mother about birth defects? That's some lousy care if you fail to give her time to prepare.
 
Dave

Dave

Staff member
Veto? Fuck your veto, guvnah! We hate women and don't care about them - just unborn pieces of tissue. Of course, when the babies are born these people cease to give a shit.
 
C

Chazwozel

Dave said:
Veto? Fuck your veto, guvnah! We hate women and don't care about them - just unborn pieces of tissue. Of course, when the babies are born these people cease to give a shit.
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Well the white ones usually do get adopted. Just sayin...
 
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