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So yesterday we had some friends over for board games. One of my friends brought his girlfriend over that neither myself or my wife had ever met, although we have known he's been seeing her for a few months now. And she wasn't a drag along either. She actually is like-minded with the rest of us and she loves board games and has even played a few of the ones that we drug out of the closet. (And games like Settlers of Catan, not Monopoly). Personally I thought she was a welcome addition to the group. She was polite, silly, and even seemed to have the silent ability of keeping the others from resorting to insulting each other for a laugh. Which was also nice because I'm typically the main target of those particular jokes.
However my wife went with the completely opposite reaction. She thought Jessica was the "alpha bitch" as she put it. Insisting that she was flirting with me and all the guys at the table and giving her "glare downs". Which of course I completely did not notice from her. My wife reacted to this by leaving the game (politely) and locking her and our baby daughter in our room, only venturing out with an excuse to leave the house entirely. I had to wait until after everyone had left to get most of what was going through her mind. She said she felt "horribly uncomfortable in (her) own house".
I'm not saying my wife is wrong about what she sensed/saw. I mean I'm not the most observant person in the world.
However what concerns me is this is a not a new thing. My wife does this. A lot. She typically makes judgement about someone, and suddenly we are never to see that person again or invite them into our house again. Just a few weeks ago we went to a birthday party for one of our kids' friend's and met some adults who all were gamers. I liked them all immediately. But my wife latched onto some things she didn't like such as one of the guys in particular, and how the women were judging her for being an atheist and "going to hell for getting (her) tubes tied". Again. Nothing I noticed.
And the list of occurrences go on. We met a nice couple in the park once who she nixed because she didn't like the way they were talking to their kid. A few of my friends she has nixed because she sensed romantic feelings between the two of us.
It just never stops.
This is very much why my wife has no friends of her own.
And of course she gets upset at me for being insensitive and judgmental of her in these situations. So I can't judge her for being judgmental. Basically.Ironically.
This last time I came at her very calmly. I told her that I didn't see the things that she was noticing and that I hoped she would be willing to just see that "being flirtatious" is just part of Jessica's personality and she's probably not even that aware she's doing it to a married man. In fact if she was doing it to everyone then it's honestly probably nothing than just someone being friendly. Some women are just like that. But, in the same breath, I told her that I would respect her decision if she decided that Jessica would not be allowed to return. It's her house too, and I won't put her into a situation where she is uncomfortable being there.

Is there anything that I can do?
And by the way I am posting this anonymously to avoid my wife (who is quite the "curious" type) from coming across it. Last thing I need is to explain to her why I'm venting to a forum. Though I'm sure a few of you will know who this is.

This is an insecurity issue. I went through this same thing with my wife and to some extent still do, just not nearly as bad. There's really nothing much you can do about it. Unless your wife starts to value herself, she'll only cut others down to try and rise above them, even if only in her own mind. It's a pain in the ass, but that's the way it is. Be patient, be supportive, but most of all, even when in fights (which all married people have) do NOT use these insecurities against her, even though you know you'd be sure to score a hit! It takes time, but it does get better. Usually. Hopefully. If it doesn't, she may need counseling to come to terms with the value of her own self-worth, which is always a lot higher than they see in themselves.

Maybe ask her to be more specific with her description of the instances? Like what exactly did person X do that was too flirty, or judgmental or whatever? Otherwise I might just ignore it? I mean, two of my good friends are having a fight right now, but I'm not going to pick a side or anything. I'm just going to keep hanging out with them and if they can't be adults and intermingle then that's on them. Obviously with one party being your wife you have to handle it carefully but I feel like you can still have her back and support her while still having a social life with people you think are ok.

My guess is the other woman was cute. Insecure women HATE nice, cute girls.

What Dave said.

Also, do you know much about her primary female influences? Do they behave the same way? Are they wary and overly critical of other women?

Dave said:

My guess is the other woman was cute. Insecure women HATE nice, cute girls.

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Yes they do. Good lord do they ever.

Cajungal said:

What Dave said.

Also, do you know much about her primary female influences? Do they behave the same way? Are they wary and overly critical of other women?

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You mean ALL women? Shit, I've noticed that while a guy will puff up like a rooster to gain alpha status with other guys, women will eviscerate each other with a smile. I don't believe I've ever met a woman that wasn't critical of other women.

Dave said:

My guess is the other woman was cute. Insecure women HATE nice, cute girls.

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My cousin, who is drop-dead gorgeous, intelligent, and very kind, has no friends at her job because she was labeled a two-faced bitch on day one. She's not the only person I know who's experienced this. It really is a shame. Feels funny playing the violin for women who seem to have it all together, but it really is hard for her to make friends in some environments. Their loss, I guess.[DOUBLEPOST=1373318560][/DOUBLEPOST]

Dave said:

You mean ALL women? Shit, I've noticed that while a guy will puff up like a rooster to gain alpha status with other guys, women will eviscerate each other with a smile. I don't believe I've ever met a woman that wasn't critical of other women.

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There's a reason. Well, there are a few reasons. I get critical because there are too many men who see one woman act like an idiot or an asshole and attribute that behavior to all of us. There's a difference between "you're making us all look bad" and "she's pretty; I bet she's a slut." To be fair, though, one woman's mistake shouldn't be attributed to all of us in the first place. But there you go.

Cajungal said:

There's a reason. Well, there are a few reasons. I get critical because there are too many men who see one woman act like an idiot or an asshole and attribute that behavior to all of us. There's a difference between "you're making us all look bad" and "she's pretty; I bet she's a slut."

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Kind of like generalizing how all men would treat women based on how one or two act?

Dave said:

Kind of like generalizing how all men would treat women based on how one or two act?

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I'm sorry, did they change the definition of "too many?" Your comment is fair enough, but you know very well what I meant and that it happens. All groups of people get lumped together unfairly, and the fact that it doesn't just happen to women doesn't diminish that fact. (Edit, this is coming off really harsh. I'm not meaning to fight about this, and your point is fair.)

My original point--the one that's useful to this thread--is that sometimes women grow up in the company of more insecure or bitter women; and sometimes they grow up around more confident women. If they're influenced poorly, it can be hard to break that habit. But it should be broken.

Dave said:

You mean ALL women?

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Dave said:

Kind of like generalizing how all men would treat women based on how one or two act?

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Dave said:

You mean ALL women?

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"Women can be friends with each other, but you can't, like, force women to be together..."

phil said:

I'm sorry, did they change the definition of "too many?" Your comment is fair enough, but you know very well what I meant and that it happens. All groups of people get lumped together unfairly, and the fact that it doesn't just happen to women doesn't diminish that fact. (Edit, this is coming off really harsh. I'm not meaning to fight about this, and your point is fair.)

My original point--the one that's useful to this thread--is that sometimes women grow up in the company of more insecure or bitter women; and sometimes they grow up around more confident women. If they're influenced poorly, it can be hard to break that habit. But it should be broken.

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My smilie probably should have been this one: .

I was poking fun.

Eh, I know. I edited my post a bit. There are many reasons why you just got a bit of undeserved snippy-ness. Sufficed to say, you're smarter than a lot of the men in my town, and I should remember that.

I certainly wish my wife was not as insecure about herself. She's a very beautiful woman, and has so much to be damn proud of. Sadly my words and encouragement are never enough to make any difference. Sadly she's more influenced by the harsh words of her mother, who despite being hated, seems to be the only person she wants to listen to when it comes to critiques about herself. And her mother, who is possibly bi-polar from what I've seen, has a habit of saying mean things to my wife such as "You're teeth are yellow. I don't even want to talk to you right now cause I'm so disgusted.". Completely out of no where? I agree. In fact, based on the issues mentioned above I wonder if such a conversation even happened. But, regardless of whether it did or not, the next day my wife bought one of those teeth whitening kits, and a week later I okayed her to get them professionally whitened. Do I think her teeth needed it? Not at all. I thought they were no more stained than mine, and I keep mine in pretty good condition considering. But it's clear that she's just going to continue hating everything about herself. And sadly it looks like it's having a secondary effect of keeping us from making any new friends.

Ouch. That is awful. Of course someone who's been criticized like that all her life might be overly critical. It's a tough situation, but Dave probably gave you the best advice in that first post. If you're supportive and don't use it as ammo (doesn't seem like you would at all), you could help her through this. It's nice of you to respect her wishes, and it's easy enough when it's not someone who's really important to you. However, you might want to be prepared to put your foot down. It's not healthy to allow your SO to box people out of your life for no reason.

Cajungal said:

Ouch. That is awful. Of course someone who's been criticized like that all her life might be overly critical. It's a tough situation, but Dave probably gave you the best advice in that first post. If you're supportive and don't use it as ammo (doesn't seem like you would at all), you could help her through this. It's nice of you to respect her wishes, and it's easy enough when it's not someone who's really important to you. However, you might want to be prepared to put your foot down. It's not healthy to allow your SO to box people out of your life for no reason.

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I'd like to discuss this matter further with her. Though I know that if the timing is just a little off then she'll be chewing my head off and completely shut down no matter how calmly I approach her with it. Hopefully she'll bring it up so that I can mention. I really do want to discuss with her the possibility that she may be insecure regarding Jessica, and hopefully point out to her that this occurrence happens a lot. If it were an isolated incident it would be one thing. But in this case I feel like I have a right to be concerned that it's an ongoing trend and will continue to control who we can and who we cannot have as friends. I chose not to put my foot down in this instance, yes because I did not know Jessica for long, but also because it wouldn't have mattered if I did. I have already had to remove friends from my life because my wife just couldn't simply handle it. I was friends with an ex, and that friendship had to end because my wife just couldn't get past the thought of me with another woman. My wife is incredibly emotional about all this, and sadly her ability to get very mean and nasty about it tends to irritate me so much that even I start yelling and screaming.
Gah.
Worst part is I'm not permitted to discuss this with anyone. Hence why I'm choosing to be anonymous, if only to keep my wife from discovering these posts. But I can't discuss this with my friends, which is going to be an issue later. Because obviously I'm going to want to have everyone over again soon. Which means I'll want to invite my friend who is dating Jessica. So I'll have to somehow explain to him why Jessica cannot come. Which will likely result in my friend not coming because it's not fair that I'm not inviting Jessica when she hasn't done anything to warrant such a negative opinion about her.

I hope that y'all can work something out. Jealousy and insecurity can be poison, but it sounds like you know how to approach her. Good luck, and please let us know if you make any progress.

It's a fascinating coincidence that you, despite being her husband and spending a lot of time with your wife, never seem to be around when people say some pretty horrible shit to your wife. I'm not saying your wife is a liar, but I am saying I can give you a pretty good picture of why she might be lying.

Okay, here we go.

Anonymous said:

Is there anything that I can do?

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You can encourage your wife to go into some kind of therapy. This is not me invoking the THERAPY meme, either. She should consider it.

Anonymous said:

However my wife went with the completely opposite reaction. She thought Jessica was the "alpha bitch" as she put it. Insisting that she was flirting with me and all the guys at the table and giving her "glare downs". Which of course I completely did not notice from her. My wife reacted to this by leaving the game (politely) and locking her and our baby daughter in our room, only venturing out with an excuse to leave the house entirely. I had to wait until after everyone had left to get most of what was going through her mind. She said she felt "horribly uncomfortable in (her) own house".

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Can or did you ask the others present if your they felt Jessica was acting in a way different from your impression? Don't prime them with "Did she seem like a bitch," don't even mention you're wondering if they noticed an attitude toward your wife, just ask them how they found Jessica. My feeling is that they will have experienced her not dissimilarly to you.

Anonymous said:

I'm not saying my wife is wrong about what she sensed/saw. I mean I'm not the most observant person in the world.

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Hm, you say that, but:

Anonymous said:

[of Jessica]She actually is like-minded... She was polite, silly... silent ability of keeping the others from resorting to insulting each other for a laugh.

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It looks to me like you are observant, you noticed that she was a good fit for you friends, her demeanour, and even the understated -in fact, 'silent'- talent of hers to promote positive group cohesion. Particularly your ability to notice something that wasn't happening, that wasn't there suggests to me you are observant. Although, maybe not the 'most' observant, but obviously you were paying attention to her and the group.

Anonymous said:

However what concerns me is this is a not a new thing. My wife does this. A lot. She typically makes judgement about someone, and suddenly we are never to see that person again or invite them into our house again. Just a few weeks ago we went to a birthday party for one of our kids' friend's and met some adults who all were gamers. I liked them all immediately. But my wife latched onto some things she didn't like such as one of the guys in particular, and how the women were judging her for being an atheist and "going to hell for getting (her) tubes tied". Again. Nothing I noticed.

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As I have now established I think you are someone who does notice things, I am going to take your word over hers. Now, I do not know what kind of crowd you hang out with, but how did it come up in one conversation that your wife is both an atheist, and has had tubal ligation surgery? How did these both come up without you noticing? And, how is it that she met not one, but multiple women who had no problem stating to her face "You are going to hell for getting your tubes tied."?

These seem like strange things to me. Although I'm pleased to talk about my religious beliefs, it seldom comes up in a party setting. Likewise, it may be that someone else mentioned some form of birth control, or that they were considering that surgery or their husband a vasectomy, and she decided to chime in about her experience and choice. Not a common party topic, but to be honest I've had more conversations about birth control methods than my religion at parties.

But for me the weirdest part isn't either of those things, exactly. Now, I am not familiar with every denomination, but I know Catholics reject birth control, however without getting into Catholic doctrine, it definitely doesn't mean you're going to hell (of course there are Catholics or misunderstand or misrepresent things to an extreme). I know many Protestant sects permit birth control, and some reject it, although I don't know exactly which ones and what they believe, doctrinally, about the fate of those who choose to use it.

However I do know that if a given Christian who is bold enough to be bluntly judgmental to someone's face is given the option of telling them they're going to hell because they had their tubes tied, or they're going to hell because they're an atheist...

They're not going to pick the fallopian tubes. They're going to pick the heresy. Why, accepting the idea, that several women were that outwardly rude, would they condemn her for that but only 'judge' her for being an atheist? That doesn't make sense to me.

Anonymous said:

And the list of occurrences go on. We met a nice couple in the park once who she nixed because she didn't like the way they were talking to their kid.

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I mean, sure you want to avoid a bad parent, but you called them a 'nice couple,' and I said, I am trusting your judgment here. So, hm.

Anonymous said:

A few of my friends she has nixed because she sensed romantic feelings between the two of us.

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That's not healthy.

Anonymous said:

It just never stops.

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This is a sentence that is very much worrying to me, because it is something one says when one is exhausted. Are you exhausted with her behaviour? That is bad for the relationship. I'm not saying you shouldn't be exhausted, I am not telling you to buck up, and keep going for the sake of the relationship, but I am going to tell you that if you are feeling exhausted by your wife's behaviour, then there is something wrong. The exhaustion may cause unhealthiness or even damage in the relationship, but if the source of the exhaustion is damaging, then it's not how you deal with your exhaustion that matters in this case, it is going to be how to deal the exhausting behaviour.

Anonymous said:

This is very much why my wife has no friends of her own.

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I will get back to this.

Anonymous said:

And of course she gets upset at me for being insensitive and judgmental of her in these situations. So I can't judge her for being judgmental. Basically.Ironically.

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First of all, you do want to avoid judging her, as we should avoid judging everyone. That does not mean you have to ignore reality. In fact, you most definitely should not. I don't know what you say to her that is judgmental, but do consider your language carefully.

Anonymous said:

This last time I came at her very calmly. I told her that I didn't see the things that she was noticing and that I hoped she would be willing to just see that "being flirtatious" is just part of Jessica's personality and she's probably not even that aware she's doing it to a married man. In fact if she was doing it to everyone then it's honestly probably nothing than just someone being friendly. Some women are just like that.

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You put "being flirtatious" in quotes, are those her words, or yours? Do you I agree that her behaviour was flirtatious? It sounds like you didn't perceive any flirtation directed toward you or anyone, so I'm not sure that we can say that Jessica is flirtatious. If she is, she shouldn't be flirting with a married man, on that point your wife and I agree; but I might expect that Jessica's boyfriend, your (and your wife's? I was unclear) friend, would also be vexed by that behaviour. I suppose some guys don't mind. I don't know.

Anonymous said:

But, in the same breath, I told her that I would respect her decision if she decided that Jessica would not be allowed to return. It's her house too, and I won't put her into a situation where she is uncomfortable being there.

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Wait, but it's okay for you to be uncomfortable in your house? To feel uncomfortable to have company over? Hm.

Anonymous said:

I certainly wish my wife was not as insecure about herself. She's a very beautiful woman, and has so much to be damn proud of. Sadly my words and encouragement are never enough to make any difference.

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I have a suspicion that your wife broadcasts, however unconsciously, the identity of 'I am a victim,' and because of this she cannot be made to 'feel better' for any significant time, because it would conflict with the identity which is extremely important to her sense of self -whether she knows or not. If this sounds like psychobabble, I apologise, but there is truth in the idea that the ego will fight to hang onto its sense of identity over anything, whether that means relationships, money, whatever.

Anonymous said:

Sadly she's more influenced by the harsh words of her mother, who despite being hated, seems to be the only person she wants to listen to when it comes to critiques about herself.

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Her mother is going to have had/continue to have an impact on her life, I mean, sheesh, she's her mom, but it's interesting that she hates her and yet listens to her opinions. Well, it's less interesting if you accept the idea that what your wife really wants to her identity externally validated. It's less about (though still about) 'I'm not attractive,' and far more about 'See, mom says I'm ugly.' I'll get back to this.

Anonymous said:

And her mother, who is possibly bi-polar from what I've seen, has a habit of saying mean things to my wife such as "You're teeth are yellow. I don't even want to talk to you right now cause I'm so disgusted.". Completely out of no where? I agree.

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Her mom sounds unpleasant, if this story is true. You seem to doubt the veracity of it:

Anonymous said:

In fact, based on the issues mentioned above I wonder if such a conversation even happened.

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NB: It's entirely possibly her mother is a terrible person whether or not this story is true.

Anonymous said:

But, regardless of whether it did or not, the next day my wife bought one of those teeth whitening kits, and a week later I okayed her to get them professionally whitened. Do I think her teeth needed it? Not at all. I thought they were no more stained than mine, and I keep mine in pretty good condition considering.

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Something else you noticed.

Anonymous said:

But it's clear that she's just going to continue hating everything about herself.

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Alright, I have a question that I want you to answer here. I'm very curious. Does your wife hate everything about herself? How does your wife feel about herself? What does she say about herself?

Here's what I know about your wife: she believes Jessica is a bitch, she believes some random mothers at a birthday party hate her, she believes your friends flirt with you -and by extension, she believes that they do not like her, she believes her mother believes her teeth are yellow.

You've never reported her saying, "I'm bad at socialising," or "I don't know how to get along with other moms," or "I hate my teeth," or "I'm ugly," or anything about herself. She is repeatedly saying other people don't like her. Other people are at fault for how she feels. Other people make her unable to play a board game. Other people make her unable to go to a party. Other people make her whiten her teeth.

It's not her. No! It's these awful people.

Anonymous said:

This is very much why my wife has no friends of her own.

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I said I'd get back to this, I wanted to include this:

Anonymous said:

And sadly it looks like it's having a secondary effect of keeping us from making any new friends.

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First you said your wife doesn't have any friends (and this is after mentioning you 'can't see' some of your own friends) and now you're saying you can't even make new friends as a couple. Even with couples!

I bet your wife trusts you not to cheat on her, I think if you straight up asked her, she would say it's not you she's worried about, it's those flirtatious girls -as though it doesn't take two to tango, but whatever.

I will repeat again that your wife sees herself as a victim, and again I will say it is possibly -I think even likely- that this identity is unconscious, but deeply rooted.

The reason she doesn't have friends, and you can't make friends as a couple is because then she isn't a victim. A victim can't have friends! Then there'd be people to help her! I'll even suspect that no matter how you broach this topic with her, she will accuse you of 'siding' with 'them.'

You will say, "I think it's a good idea for us to invite Jessica and <friend> over again. Board games were really fun."
And she'll say, "So, you think it's okay for girls to flirt with married men?" Because she needs to externally validate her victim status. If it isn't Jessica, it will be yellow teeth, and if it isn't teeth, it will be weight, and if it isn't weight, it will be those mean kids at school who don't like me, nobody likes me, why doesn't anybody like me.

And so she'll run away, grab her kid as an excuse, and make no mistake, she was using your daughter as an excuse that night, and everyone will notice that. She won't feel embarrassed, or wrong, that a grown woman couldn't sit at a table with someone she didn't really care for: she'll feel right. It wasn't her fault she left, they were mean to her, in her mind, they drove her out. They didn't want her there anyway.

People are saying your wife is insecure, and she probably is, but that's not the core problem here. She sees everything from her point of view, and according to her narrative, no one likes her. If someone likes her, she makes goddamn sure she never finds out about it, even to the point of 'seeing' people glare at her. Hm.

I'd just like to point out how refreshing it is that no one has tried to tell him to MAN THE FUCK UP. Cause really, I don't think that's helpful.

People don't usually do the man the fuck up thing when the guy's married. It's mostly reserved for the whole "I like this girl but I don't know how to tell her tee hee" issue.

There's a lot of this to read and too little of it will do any good. Nothing's going to get any better if the wife doesn't see her behavior as problematic.

OP post truly pissed me of. Particularly this :

However my wife went with the completely opposite reaction. She thought Jessica was the "alpha bitch" as she put it. Insisting that she was flirting with me and all the guys at the table and giving her "glare downs". Which of course I completely did not notice from her. My wife reacted to this by leaving the game (politely) and locking her and our baby daughter in our room, only venturing out with an excuse to leave the house entirely. I had to wait until after everyone had left to get most of what was going through her mind. She said she felt "horribly uncomfortable in (her) own house".

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I'm sorry Mrs. Insecurity but everything is NOT always about you.

Maybe you want to make new friends as well? Why does she only have a say on what goes? What kinda of person ups and leaves like that and locking themselves and child in their room? Jesus christ, get over yourself.

Reality check time.

This is probably something people around you already acknowledge and most likely even discuss with each other. Having her up and leave and acting like she did had your friends discussing it the moment they left your house. In fact, they may already have had some reservations even before they came over. Think about it. They have been going out for months and you still didn't meet her.... mmm?

And if this is a repeat issue, dude, get her some help, this ain't healthy for you and you know what...

IT WON'T BE HEALTHY FOR YOUR DAUGHTER.

It's obvious she has mother issues, as most women do... but with her acting like this... it WILL will rub off on your child. That's a given.

Dude, she even stopped being friends with some girls because you got along with them... TOO ALONG WITH THEM... holy shit.

IMHO, if she doesn't want her over or hanging out with them, nothing is stopping YOU from hanging out with THEM. Invite her, if she gives you a stink-face, go out and do your thing.

It'll cause you strains but it will make her realize that the way she's acting is putting you guys in this position.

If you're too whipped to do that, may God have mercy on your soul you poor fuck.

Your wife is broken. Put her back in the original packaging and ship her back to the factory for warranty replacement. Recommend opting for the BustPlusPro upgrade package, it includes the Gregarious 2.5 patch.

"I'm sorry you felt that way. I'm sure it was simply a misunderstanding, though, why don't you call her up and go out for lunch later this week? I'd hate it if she didn't mean anything by it, but it hurt our relationship with our friend, or prevented us from getting to know her better and possibly considering her a new friend."

Of course this will only help if she's reasonable.

It's good advice so far. Thank you guys.

I'm 100% with Jay and pretty much the rest of the sentiments of insecurity. It's more than normal female insecurity because she even went so far as to lock herself away (where she was probably stewing with anger) then even left the house while there was company around (even lower). It's insecurity meets immaturity meets lack of social graces.

The worst part? As everyone already said, there's nothing you can do because she doesn't see herself as wrong. My wife had this to an extent and until she realized it herself (when she ended up friendless) it started to turn around.

So I spoke with my wife tonight. I asked her about her past and went over some of the things I already knew. I asked her if she felt she had insecurity issues, to which she agreed. I asked her why she felt she was fat, and why she felt so poorly about herself most of the time. She said it's because she is a failure. And then I asked what she felt like she's failed at. When she wasn't able to really give me any specific examples she said that that's kind of what happens when you've grown up being adopted and had so many abusive relationships. I asked her if she felt I was abusive, and she said no. I asked her if she felt that I am only with her because I want to take advantage of her insecurity so I can control her, and therefore want her to remain insecure. She said no. So I asked her what she's so worried and concerned about. I told her a story about myself. How when I was younger I was constantly convinced that everyone was out to get me and make fun of me. How I could be in a place like a crowded room full of strangers, and be convinced that anyone who laughed was laughing at me in particular. Eventually we got to the subject about Jessica. Which, as expected, put her immediately on the defensive. I tried to explain that while Jessica is the most recent example, she's not the focus of the issue. I just wanted to encourage her to try to get to know someone before passing judgement on them. As stein suggested I mentioned the possibility of her asking Jessica to lunch, to see how she acts when there are no other people around who might influence her personality, so she can get to know the real Jessica. She made a sound of disgust and told me that was a really stupid idea.
End results of the conversation.
She is convinced I am judging her.
She is convinced I don't care about her opinion.
She will not agree to therapy.
She doesn't think she has a problem.

This is not me telling you guys you were wrong to make the suggestions that I applied to my conversation with her. I feel they were all legitimate suggestions. Unfortunately my wife is far from a logical person right now.

Give her a bit to cool down, I'm sure she'll think on it and realize she's being somewhat irrational.

My wife hates my friend M. No real reason. She just hates her. Her reason? Because M is very close to another friend, J. They say they are not together (he being married and she married but very recently separated), but if they are not they are everything but. You'd just have to see them together to get what I'm talking about. Anyway, that's the reason she uses to dislike M. Yet her friend cheated on her husband and moved out to be with her new boyfriend, living in hotels, etc. But that's just fine. It's this double standard that people can have. Okay, knowing that story, tell me what M and my wife's friend looks like. You got it. M is younger and decent looking while my wife's friend is older and...not.

M is a damned nice person but my wife treats her like shit for no reason at all. I get where you are coming from and it sucks, but there's nothing you can do about it.

Chad Sexington said:

It's a fascinating coincidence that you, despite being her husband and spending a lot of time with your wife, never seem to be around when people say some pretty horrible shit to your wife. I'm not saying your wife is a liar, but I am saying I can give you a pretty good picture of why she might be lying.

Okay, here we go.


You can encourage your wife to go into some kind of therapy. This is not me invoking the THERAPY meme, either. She should consider it.

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Given whats been written here about her relationship with her mom and her own feelings, etc, this is probably the best advice you are going to get here. I know you said "she won't agree to therapy" which is to bad, and I'm not sure how to change her mind but man, she really needs it. This doesn't sound healthy.

Stay strong my friend. Keep loving her. She needs it.

Oy. Good luck, brother. What espy said. She needs love and understanding, but she also needs to honor your boundaries and your needs. You deserve to have friends and, like Chad said, to feel comfortable in your own home as well. Be kind about it, but keep pushing her to think about what her behavior is saying. No matter what she says, it boils down to either "I don't trust you", "I'm not ok with myself," or both. And that kind of unhealthy mindset doesn't just hurt her; it hurts the person she promised to love and support in this lifetime. I hope that you can resolve this in the near future.

I think most married men deal with this on some level so at least realize you're not alone in this. Are you doing all that you can to give her confidence in you? Avoiding behavior that might make her even more insecure, etc.

I've dealt with this as well (not to the same extent). I thought it would settle down once I was married. It has but it took work on both of our parts.

It also doesn't help that society has a effed up view of beauty. Good luck dude.

Man, I know I have my own insecurities, but I love the fella's female friends from his restaurant job. He has a lot of luck meeting cool people. Maybe it helps that they're lesbians... even if I were worried about someone trying to steal Jake, I'd look silly accusing one of them...

Well, keep on keeping on. The one thing you can do is be steady in your love and availability. An example of the person she can always turn to, and who will always turn to her.

Keep in mind that her feelings are valid. Her perception may not be correct, but that doesn't mean her feelings about the people and situations she deals with aren't valid to her.

One thing you might want to consider is that she needs to believe you are completely on her side before she can open herself up enough to trust your judgement of other people. For instance, when she walked out of the party, it might have been to both your benefit if you went to her, asked her what's wrong, and tried to soothe her feelings and possibly bring her back into the group. If that fails, then you might have given her the choice to send everyone away so that she feels comfortable in her own home.

It's not the reasonable thing to do, but your friends are likely understanding, and would accept a "I'm sorry, but she's feeling really under the weather all of the sudden," excuse.

Of course by going down this path you are traveling a really rocky road where you are allowing her to control your interactions with others, but with the right nudging, and the freedom to explore experiences she is actively interested in, you might be able to form a stronger relationship with her that will allow her to blossom out of the shell she's currently in.

Of course, I'm looking at it from the perspective of a parent child relationship. When my children are scared, unhappy, or dissatisfied with a particular thing, idea, person, etc, then I first accept and validate their feelings, and depending on the severity of the reaction I may shield them from it during the time of stress, while helping them to understand that they're going to have to deal with it eventually, and helping them explore their own feelings about it so they can understand why the item, person, or idea troubles them so much.

But my relationship with them is fundamentally different in several ways, so the above advice might not be useful, however it might provide something to chew on for you.

Either way, keep loving and supporting her, and become her steadfast ally.

Anonymous said:

End results of the conversation.
She is convinced I am judging her.
She is convinced I don't care about her opinion.
She will not agree to therapy.
She doesn't think she has a problem.

Unfortunately my wife is far from a logical person right now.

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Have you considered going to a therapist/counselor yourself? Sometimes, therapy isn't about how you can change your own thinking, but how you can adapt to deal with other people's thinking without going crazy yourself.

Or to put it another way, while venting anonymously on the internet can be useful, a good therapist can go a lot deeper and have the personal details necessary to help you plan a different approach. My own helped me change my approach to dealing with someone else at work. I didn't change how I think or how I do my actual job, just how I conveyed info to this person and dealt with roadblocks that person set up.

SpecialKO said:

roadblocks

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explosives

The current state of things: After a mild fight last night and then again this morning we were able to at least come to an understanding. My wife is still convinced that there is nothing wrong with how she perceived Jessica's actions. She still maintains that J. was attempting to show her dominance over the group and look down upon her. But she has at least agreed to give Jessica another chance. Though more than likely that won't be for a while anyway as the next time I have people over it will probably be a different group entirely. Only enough time for one game day a month currently.
So whatever. Luckily my wife didn't do her usual withdrawing into her shell thing that she does whenever she and I don't agree on something. She attempted to, but I was able to show her that I was listening to her enough that she decided that pulling the "You've just proven that I can never talk to you"
BS was not valid this time around. My wife bathes in drama. She did take off her ring last night in one of those "I don't feel like I should be wearing these" moments, but like I said. She's just dramatic and I don't think much of it anymore. Maybe it will be an issue in the future. But for now she understands deep down that she's happy. Hard to explain the situation without making it sound worse than it is.

The statement about her taking of her ring as a gesture says all you need to know about her - like you've already said, she thrives on the drama. Refuse to buy into it, and you refuse to play her games. Stay consistent with it, and she'll either grow out of it, or she'll try another tactic, and you'll learn to deal with that one, too.

Honestly, it sounds as though she still needs to grow up somewhat, because this is petty high school bullshit. Hopefully she'll realise that before permanent damage is done. For what it's worth, it sounds as though you've handled it pretty well so far. Don't play the game, and she'll figure it out quickly enough.

Hmm, yeah, I suppose if this behavior is not actually fear but merely an attempt to manipulate people then that might be the best response.

That "taking of the ring because I don't feel like I should be wearing it right now" thing is just absolute passive-aggressive headgames bullshit. As much as the right thing to do is to ignore it, I'd be tempted to say something like "you know, my ring can come off, too" and leave it hanging what it means.

Not really, because then you're buying into the game - it's a grand, dramatic gesture, and it feeds her need to be the center of attention. Brush it off, and carry on.

Officer_Charon said:

Not really, because then you're buying into the game - it's a grand, dramatic gesture, and it feeds her need to be the center of attention. Brush it off, and carry on.

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Yeah, like I said.. I know it's right.

Reading comprehension fail. My bad, dude

When I read that I couldn't help but feel bad for op.

To say such anything speaks wonders on the situation.

If her purpose is to have you get angry or upset, your only recourse is to be neutral about it and dismiss it. Replying or reacting to it only makes her win.

You should hang out with your friends without her. To do that is not an act of defiance it's an act of you don't give a shit and life will move on without her.

Lastly, I still have fears for your daughter having such a bad influence on her.

Doing things like that suggests she either wants to hurt you or doesn't care if she does.

I'm interested to know why she thinks her point of view/perception is so important/correct if she generally thinks poorly of herself. I mean, if she really thinks there's so much to hate about herself, then surely even her point of view might be flawed? Why doesn't she consider that other people's points of view could be correct?

Why doesn't she see that Jessica is new to the group and might have been assertive just because it's hard to join a new group, and she wanted to make sure she (Jessica) made the best of it?

Why is your wife's POV the be all and end all correct one?

She's crazy in the coconut?

Quotemander Prime said:

Doing things like that suggests she either wants to hurt you or doesn't care if she does.

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She does care. One of her issues is that she just hasn't been in such a loving relationship before. She's accustomed to feeling absolutely nothing for the people she's with, as a defense mechanism that kept her from getting emotionally hurt in those abusive relationships. She actually has deep feelings for me, but whenever we fight her instinct is to put up walls and retreat to a "I don't care" state again.
It's just some crazy drama. It's gotten better over time though. She's young and has had a troubled child-hood. I assume things will get better, but even if they don't I'll deal. She's very mature and dedicated in some aspects, and just a drama queen in others. But then again most of us are in some way. When we really get fighting it's a lot of drama from both sides. I picked up a mean temper from my dad so I can get pretty loud and ridiculous sometimes. Also something that I've been working on controlling. Which is luckily also helping her to control her temper.

Chad Sexington said:

I'm interested to know why she thinks her point of view/perception is so important/correct if she generally thinks poorly of herself. I mean, if she really thinks there's so much to hate about herself, then surely even her point of view might be flawed? Why doesn't she consider that other people's points of view could be correct?

Why doesn't she see that Jessica is new to the group and might have been assertive just because it's hard to join a new group, and she wanted to make sure she (Jessica) made the best of it?

Why is your wife's POV the be all and end all correct one?

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Not being able to admit that you may be wrong is also a way of bing insecure...

Anonymous said:

When we really get fighting it's a lot of drama from both sides. I picked up a mean temper from my dad so I can get pretty loud and ridiculous sometimes. Also something that I've been working on controlling. Which is luckily also helping her to control her temper.

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Remember - and this is of critical importance - when you fight, you know what hr weaknesses and insecurities are. Never - EVER - use these insecurities as ammo. One instance of this will invalidate months and years of carefully building up her self-esteem. You MUST stay in control at all times during a fight.

tegid said:

Not being able to admit that you may be wrong is also a way of bing insecure...

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I know... I am asking, really, what her answer is that apparent logical contradiction.

Another of my wife's issues, or rather something I suspect is an issue, is her desire to lie about certain things. I've been of the understanding since we first started dating, that not everything my wife says can be taken for face value. She's made several allegations towards some of my friends regarding inappropriate behavior, which at the time I could only resolve as "misunderstandings". My friends can be considered many things, but apart from one who did the deed he was accused of, they are pretty honest and decent folks. It certainly hasn't stopped at my friends. As posted above, she does the same thing to most women we meet. I'll find out that, while I had my back turned, or while I wasn't listening, the other woman did something or said something so cruel that it would make anyone scratch their heads at the likeliness of it. She also does the same thing with her mom, insisting that her mom does nothing but scream at her, when the most I've ever seen is a stern lecture.
One of the strangest lies that she makes regards her ability to see psychic visions when she dreams. She claims, for example, that she knew about 911 two weeks before it happened, having dreamed of planes slamming into two tall towers. Of course she only mentioned this to anyone after the event occurred. She's been making this claim lately on a few other news blurbs. She gave a bunch of physical details regarding the Boston Marathon Bombers such as they didn't realize the building near their second drop had a camera, and the types of clothes they were wearing. And yesterday she said she had a dream about being capsized off the east coast and having to swim hours to shore to rescue her family. Of course by the time she revealed these dreams to me these facts were already documented knowledge. In fact, immediately after she "found" the news story about the capsized family to prove to me her dream was another one of her visions, I checked her phone's browsing history and discovered that she had looked at the article earlier that morning.
I didn't confront her with the knowledge. I don't think calling her a liar is the best way to go about it. I assume this is just another one of her quirks that she's obtained over time. Something definitely for a therapist to go over with her, but as mentioned above she refuses to see one.
I watch TV for drama. I don't need it at home. Ugh.

Sounds similar to my MIL. I have adopted the strategy of letting the minor stuff slide and I am much happier for it. My BIL has not yet done so and he and MIL go around and around over small shit.

In short if it is small potatoes and everyone knows whats going on,



"Let the Wookie win."

I have a relative who does that as well. If you look at the research for déjà vu you find that one of the explanations is that a memory gets put into long term storage immediately, rather than going into short term storage first, and that it then feels like a memory you've had for far longer than you've actually had it, and thus gives you the sensation of already having known about it, even as you experience it.

So she may not actually be doing this on purpose, she may fully believe that she already "knew".

On the other hand, I have (very very rarely) had visions but they are very personal to me, so I don't share them before or after the event, and they only concern me and my family, not external events. There's no reason to share them.

Whether she's doing this on purpose or not, you might just respond passively or even slightly negatively to discourage her sharing them with you, or seeing them as something that makes her special.

"Wow, that must be terrible to have dreams like that!" Then say nothing else. If pushed, "well, I know that if I had dreams of such terrible events, but didn't do anything to try to prevent it, it would tear me up inside." And so forth.

Alternately, encourage her to keep a dream journal. And to keep her dreams to herself. ;P

But I suspect there's not much that will change about it until she has more self esteem. This is a symptom of broader problems, so work on the underlying issues and hopefully, over time, it will be resolved.