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http://www.salon.com/2014/11/09/you...lling_soldiers_heroes_deadens_real_democracy/

*standing and applauding*

Happy Belated Veterans' Day!

The only useful sentence in that opinion piece:

It is undeniable that there are police officers who heroically uphold their motto and mission to “serve and protect,” just as it is indisputable that there are members of the military who valiantly sacrifice themselves for the sake of others.

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I didn't do excerpts since I agreed with all of it, but what about this:

There is a sexual assault epidemic in the military. In 2003, a Department of Defense study found that one-third of women seeking medical care in the VA system reported experiencing rape or sexual violence while in the military. Internal and external studies demonstrate that since the official study, numbers of sexual assaults within the military have only increased, especially with male victims. According to the Pentagon, 38 men are sexually assaulted every single day in the U.S. military. Given that rape and sexual assault are, traditionally, the most underreported crimes, the horrific statistics likely fail to capture the reality of the sexual dungeon that has become the United States military.

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[DOUBLEPOST=1415884916,1415884805][/DOUBLEPOST]also I can't resist quoting the last paragraph

The assignment of heroism, exactly like the literary construct, might have more to do with the assignment of villainy than the actual honoring of “heroes.” Every hero needs a villain. If the only heroes are armed men fighting the country’s wars on drugs and wars in the Middle East, America’s only villains are criminals and terrorists. If servants of the poor, sick and oppressed are the heroes, then the villains are those who oppress, profit from inequality and poverty, and neglect the sick. If that is the real battle of heroism versus villainy, everyone is implicated, and everyone has a far greater role than repeating slogans, tying ribbons and placing stickers on bumpers.

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Charlie Don't Surf said:

I didn't do excerpts since I agreed with all of it, but what about this:

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Are you suggesting that we can't laud and honor those who are heroes unless the organization they operate within and all they work with are perfect?

Charlie Don't Surf said:

also I can't resist quoting the last paragraph

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Let me sum that up for you:

My pet project is the poor and marginalized. All you idiots who support the military should totally drop that and pick up my pet project instead.

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Look, this person is obviously unhappy with the military choices the executive branch has made over the last decade. They acknowledge that there was a time when the military performed according to their personal desires and wishes (probably before they were born, though... so it is with many heroes who aren't lauded until well after their time), then they go on to blame the public for continuing to support the military.

If they are that incensed, they should be directing their anger at the various administrations that have made these choices. The military is the axe, but the executive branch wields it.

I'm not going to go into the psychological importance of a society supporting their warriors. It's very complicated, and the fact that we have an all-volunteer, very effective military arm that can be directed by the President is largely due to the importance people place on this form of public service. There are those who believe this can be removed from the equation, and we'd still have just as effective a force, but I'd like to direct their attention to the blackwater scandal(s). Mercenaries are different than warriors.

I feel like 'hero' is a term that has lost all meaning because it's hard for people to know what one anymore because the label is tossed around so freely.

When my mother died I was called a 'hero' by friends and family...because I ran from the house in an attempt to get my neighbor who was a paramedic. They weren't even home. I just ended up waking his wife a newborn and sobbing fearfully in their porch. That wasn't heroic, it was desperation. Heroic would have been using the red cross training I received and doing CPR on my mom until the ambulance got there.

When I called the cops and started speaking out about Dads girlfriend beating me I was called heroic then as well. Fuck no. I was just in pain and, once the call was made, I knew it would only get worst if I didn't keep going forward. Again, not heroic. Desperation.

Hell, when Jet was born I was called friggin' heroic because I took his condition and surgeries in stride. Well, what the hell else was I supposed to do? Throw him in a trash can? Give up on him? Frig, loving your kid is not heroic and it's actually insulting to me that some people thought it was!

Actually, it's insulting to me that anyone would think doing your best in a bad situation is heroic. It makes it seem one of two ways: 1) 'Hero' is an alternative term for 'you did good kid' or 2) The only people who can be heroes are those in positions of power over something else and it makes no difference if they effect anything or made a problem worst, they are automatically a hero because they were in a place doing what was expected of them.

You wanna know who real heroes are? People who go above and beyond their call of duty. That cop a while back that, when called to check out a house, saw a kid there didn't have much of a bed so he bought one for him. Or that cop that, when a mother didn't have a car seat for her new born, instead of writing a ticket went with her, bought a car seat and helped her install it...I do believe he was reprimanded for not giving the ticket, after. The soldier that throws himself on a grenade with out thinking of himself or the one that would never harm a civilian even in a war zone. Malala Yousafzai for standing up on a bus full of other girls and holding firm to her belief and being willing to lay down her life for it...then continuing to speak out after the wound didn't kill her.

Those are heroes. You don't automatically become a hero just because you passed a police exam or met requirements to become a soldier or experienced a personal tragedy.

I have strong feelings on it but I believe the term is something to be earned.

As a Former Marine I agree with this. Not every veteran sacrificed everything. I was in the Marines and there's no way I was a hero. People thank me for my service and as I thank them I have to physically stop my eyes from rolling.

But we know the true heroes are obscure internet trolls that want to fuck police officers.

My father was an army doc in Gulf War 1 (aka "Desert Storm") and described it as a "Gilbert and Sullivan war" in which he treated 10 times as many captured enemy as he did coalition troops.

But he'll always be a hero to me, because of his participation in Grenada when he was in the 82nd Airborne (Operation Urgent Fury), in which he accidentally stabbed himself in the torso trying to open a coconut with a bayonet.

LittleSin said:

You wanna know who real heroes are? People who go above and beyond their call of duty. That cop a while back that, when called to check out a house, saw a kid there didn't have much of a bed so he bought one for him. Or that cop that, when a mother didn't have a car seat for her new born, instead of writing a ticket went with her, bought a car seat and helped her install it...I do believe he was reprimanded for not giving the ticket, after. The soldier that throws himself on a grenade with out thinking of himself or the one that would never harm a civilian even in a war zone. Malala Yousafzai for standing up on a bus full of other girls and holding firm to her belief and being willing to lay down her life for it...then continuing to speak out after the wound didn't kill her.

Those are heroes.

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You know, I'd wager a number of those people would claim they're not heroes despite the title being handed to them, much like you did. The cop that bought a car seat might say "What was I supposed to do? Make it harder for her to obey the law by giving her the ticket instead? That's counterproductive to our intended goal.". The soldier who throws himself on the grenade might say that he's/she's dead anyway, might as well do something in it. The soldier who doesn't harm a civilian in the war zone might be insulted that you think not killing civilians is heroic, rather than simply the expected thing, as you felt for being called a hero for how you handled Jet. The point being that I think if we required someone to feel like they were a hero before we called them one, we might not have any, or worse, we'd have only self-important jerks who really aren't. What's above and beyond the call of duty for one person may be business as usual for another, and that's part of what makes them heroes.

Dave said:

As a Former Marine I agree with this. Not every veteran sacrificed everything. I was in the Marines and there's no way I was a hero. People thank me for my service and as I thank them I have to physically stop my eyes from rolling.

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I am a veteran. I served in the Navy during the first Gulf war. I'm certainly no hero, either. I didn't join out of any sense of civic duty, pride, or patriotism. I didn't do anything particularly laudable during my service. I was just a guy who needed a steady decent-paying job with healthcare for my new wife and family.

I get that people appreciate that I served, in any capacity, and that's fine. But I've met some real military heroes. Funny thing, they don't generally consider themselves heroes either.

I figure that most in-your-face military/ex-military braggarts who go on about how awesome they are/were are just insecure little douchebags at heart

Some people think the uniform covers it, that they get to be treated as something special simply because of the uniform that they wear, riding someone else's coattails. Others think the uniform gives them license to misbehave. I know there are people who say that "the clothes make the man," but in the case of those who protect and serve, it is the men* who make the clothes, and the bandwagoneers would do well to remember that merely wearing the uniform does not make one a hero any more than putting on a 49'ers uniform would somehow turn me into Joe Montana.

A hero doesn't do it for glory. And I'm not saying that to reinforce some sentimental, sappy trope, I'm saying it because "glory" by itself isn't sufficient motivation to propel people to do the kinds of things that make others add "hero" to the end of their name.

--Patrick
*and women.

My dad served in Vietnam. 3 tours. He was a Green Beret Ranger with the 101st Airborne Division. He had six purple hearts, 2 bronze stars, 2 silver stars, an Air Medal, and a few others. During his last tour his entire team was wiped out. He took up with another unit, and the Army did not know where he was at, and had him listed K.I.A. for a month. Once they found out which unit he was in, they sent him on the next flight home. They did not debrief him. They did not remove his ammo or other things from his pockets. They didn't let him change his clothes that had his friends' blood and brains on them. When he stepped off the plane on the west coast he was met at the airport by disgusting pieces of garbage that spit on him, and called him a baby killer.

He is a hero. He doesn't talk about it. He doesn't have a POW flag in his yard. He doesn't ride a motorcycle with a leather jacket vest with "'Nam" written on the back. We had to request his DD214 to get his medals. He didn't even want them. We made him a shadow box with his Green Beret and Medals, and he said thanks and put it in the attic.

Every time someone shit talks the military. I think of my dad. I think of the 19-20 year old kid scared in the jungle with a country and government that didn't support him, and countrymen that spit on him.

I may have a bit of a hero-complex when it comes to folks that served. I'd rather call @Dave and @Tinwhistler heroes than to denigrate their service. They may not be heroes like Audie Murphy or my dad, but they still served. They still put their lives on the line, by simply signing up.

@Charlie Don't Surf I am not sure what life did to you and the guy that wrote that article, but I honestly feel bad for you. These kind of articles and some of your posts are just screaming for attention; hoping to a get a screaming foaming-at-the-mouth response. That's sad.

My dad is a hero, and I am humbled by those that choose to serve in the military.

I have to admit, though, that I'm curious about this "real democracy" phrase. I assume they don't mean majority rule.

So what is this "real democracy" the author is suggesting is harmed?

stienman said:

I have to admit, though, that I'm curious about this "real democracy" phrase. I assume they don't mean majority rule.

So what is this "real democracy" the author is suggesting is harmed?

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I assume he means this definition:

the common people of a community as distinguished from any privileged class; the common people with respect to their political power

No matter the form of government (we're a Republic), there will always be the have's and the have nots. That doesn't make it right or good, but it's just fact. Unless humans stop being humans, it will always be that way.

He may not be referring to a form of government, I guess. More of a social equality maybe.

I've heard of "pure" democracy defined as 3 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. Every "modification" to it is meant to prevent the abuses that seem obvious in the "pure" form.

I can't help but ask... What is a hero? Is a hero defined by what he goes through, or is he defined by the cause for which he fights (plus the deeds he does in tha fight)? Perhaps there are different kind of heroes.

I am by no means discounting the heroicity of anyone here, in particular not that of drawn_inward's father, but I can't help but feel that certainly sometimes soldiers that could be heroes (according to my intuitive idea of what a hero is) are not, due to the missions they are sent to (and not by their own fault). I guess sometimes there is a mixture of hero, victim and, I'm sorry to say, executioner...

tegid said:

I can't help but ask... What is a hero? Is a hero defined by what he goes through, or is he defined by the cause for which he fights (plus the deeds he does in tha fight)? Perhaps there are different kind of heroes.

I am by no means discounting the heroicity of anyone here, in particular not that of drawn_inward's father, but I can't help but feel that certainly sometimes soldiers that could be heroes (according to my intuitive idea of what a hero is) are not, due to the missions they are sent to (and not by their own fault). I guess sometimes there is a mixture of hero, victim and, I'm sorry to say, executioner...

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War is an awful thing. It's terrible what is asked of young men and women. Frankly, I would be happy to be an isolationist nation, ignoring all others. I am tired of my countrymen dying for mirky reasons. I may not agree with the Iraq/Afghanistan wars, but I still think that there are plenty of heroes involved in both.

tegid said:

I can't help but ask... What is a hero?

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Well, let's see. At a minimum, a hero has to be strong, has to be fast, and has to be fresh from the fight.

It also depends on who you ask. If you were to ask the people I work with, I am a legitimate, bona fide hero multiple times weekly, but if you ask the people who work next door, they would probably say, "...who?"

--Patrick

GasBandit said:

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I hated late afternoon quarterdeck watch. I'd get calls for a particular mess cook from three or four different women. Each claiming to be his fiance. ALL ON THE SAME DAY.

PatrThom said:

Well, let's see. At a minimum, a hero has to be strong, has to be fast, and has to be fresh from the fight.

It also depends on who you ask. If you were to ask the people I work with, I am a legitimate, bona fide hero multiple times weekly, but if you ask the people who work next door, they would probably say, "...who?"

--Patrick

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Aaaand... now I have that song stuck in my head.

For what it's worth, I served a year of mandatory national service and I don't consider myself in any way a hero.

DarkAudit said:

I hated late afternoon quarterdeck watch. I'd get calls for a particular mess cook from three or four different women. Each claiming to be his fiance. ALL ON THE SAME DAY.

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Too many cooks!

DarkAudit said:

I hated late afternoon quarterdeck watch. I'd get calls for a particular mess cook from three or four different women. Each claiming to be his fiance. ALL ON THE SAME DAY.

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Maybe it was all the same girl and she just liked doing voices.

Also I joined the Navy back in the day because I lost a bet