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POPECHAT: The Pope's involvement with child sex abuse coverups in the Church
#1
Steven Soderburgin
Steven Soderburgin
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.c...-is-the-pope-different-from-cardinal-law.html
There have been tons of articles about this and a lot more reports about the abuse and attempts by the Church to cover them up, including many in which the now Pope was apparently directly involved in hushing up.A priest is discovered to have been actively molesting children. His superior is notified in 1980. One of the things he is told of is the priest's forcing an 11 year old boy to perform oral sex on him. The superior does not contact the police. He approves a transfer of the priest to a different city, where the priest is required to undergo therapy but is also subsequently able to resume his work with access to children. Six years later, the priest is again found guilty of abusing children. This time, he serves a sentence, but he is subsequently allowed to resume work as a priest, with the church authorities hiding his past from future parishes, and is only removed from his position three days ago.
Joseph Ratzinger was the superior, he reviewed the man's files in 1980, and he was subsequently in charge of reviewing all sex abuse cases as head of the Congregation for the Doctrine Of The Faith in Rome. He was integral to the policy of hushing up as much of this as possible. Money quote:
We don't know what lies ahead in Germany but if the story follows the pattern in the US, Australia and Ireland, the number of victims will grow, and the church hierarchy will at first blame anti-Catholic media for attacking the church, and at some point, the whole grisly truth will come out. Except this time, the current Pope himself will be - and already is - at the center of the storm.Hundreds of victims have come forward in recent months in Germany with accounts of sexual abuse from decades past. But no case has captured the attention of the nation like that of Father Hullermann, not only because of the involvement of the future pope, but also because of the impunity that allowed a child molester to continue to work with altar boys and girls for decades after his conviction.
Benedict not only served as the archbishop of the diocese where the priest worked, but also later as the cardinal in charge of reviewing sexual abuse cases for the Vatican. Yet until the Archdiocese of Munich and Freising announced that Father Hullermann had been suspended on Monday, he continued to serve in a series of Bavarian parishes.
In 1980, the future pope reviewed the case of Father Hullermann, who was accused of sexually abusing boys in the Diocese of Essen, including forcing an 11-year-old boy to perform oral sex. The future pope approved his transfer to Munich.
If this person headed a secular organization, or if he were a politician, he would be forced to resign. Why are the standards for the Catholic church so much lower on tolerance of child abuse than the rest of society? On what grounds can this Pope reprimand bishops and priests in Ireland or the US when he seems deeply entangled in the same kind of cover-ups himself?
When, in other words, will the real victims come first? And moral responsibility meaningfully taken?
#2
Shegokigo
If you want to see a documentary about massive church cover-ups and watching the priest in question actually openly admit the things he did.
Shegokigo
If you want to see a documentary about massive church cover-ups and watching the priest in question actually openly admit the things he did.
#3
Bowielee
Bowielee
IB Goodwin.
#4
Chibibar
Chibibar
While I'm shocked at a priest are allow to have sex with young boys (note: all Catholic priests are male at this time) homosexuality in the church is a sin.
isn't that like Oxymoron?
isn't that like Oxymoron?
#5
AshburnerX
Whatever happened to “Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s”?
AshburnerX
But that's part of the problem... the church only sees it as a sin, not the criminal act it is. That's one of the reasons why they don't kick pedophile priests out of the clergy: They believe it is a sin that can be overcome with sufficient prayer and devotion to God, and as such does not require the priests to get professional help or for them to be reported to the legal authorities.While I'm shocked at a priest are allow to have sex with young boys (note: all Catholic priests are male at this time) homosexuality in the church is a sin.
isn't that like Oxymoron?
Whatever happened to “Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s”?
#6
Bowielee
Bowielee
I think chibi is saying that it's more the issue that consensual adult gay sex can get you kicked out of the catholic church, but molesting children won't.
#7
Dave
Dave
And they don't see the irony in this, either.I think chibi is saying that it's more the issue that consensual adult gay sex can get you kicked out of the catholic church, but molesting children won't.
#8
Chazwozel
Chazwozel
It's always young boys because there's a loophole in church dogma somewhere that young boys are ok to have sex with or some shit like that...
Ash is right. The thought behind these hush ups is both to keep defamation on the lowkey and because the church tries to practice the whole forgiveness approach to it. Thing is, pedophiles are mentally disturbed individuals along the lines of rapists and serial killers. You can't just move them away to another position and hope things get better. These guys are the lowest form of scum, especially because of the position they hold over these young boys. Priests are supposed to be that one person you can go to who can and will help you with any struggle of life you're dealing with. If you want to talk about sin, I wish the church would recognize these wolves in sheep's clothing as the ultimate evil.
Even though I'm not really a practicing Catholic anymore, I was fortunate enough to experience being an alter boy for several priests who were in fact really good people. This is the case with many churches and it makes me sad to read about these horrible men that drag the whole institutions reputation down the toilet. As for the pope. I think the media is trying to stick it to him where he really doesn't deserve it.
Ash is right. The thought behind these hush ups is both to keep defamation on the lowkey and because the church tries to practice the whole forgiveness approach to it. Thing is, pedophiles are mentally disturbed individuals along the lines of rapists and serial killers. You can't just move them away to another position and hope things get better. These guys are the lowest form of scum, especially because of the position they hold over these young boys. Priests are supposed to be that one person you can go to who can and will help you with any struggle of life you're dealing with. If you want to talk about sin, I wish the church would recognize these wolves in sheep's clothing as the ultimate evil.
Even though I'm not really a practicing Catholic anymore, I was fortunate enough to experience being an alter boy for several priests who were in fact really good people. This is the case with many churches and it makes me sad to read about these horrible men that drag the whole institutions reputation down the toilet. As for the pope. I think the media is trying to stick it to him where he really doesn't deserve it.
#9
Dave
Dave
So moving priests into other areas when he knew they were pedophiles is forgivable? So what would he have to do to deserve what he's getting?As for the pope. I think the media is trying to stick it to him where he really doesn't deserve it.
#10
Chibibar
but yea, the point I was trying to give was that two consenting adults are kick out of the church (or excommunicated) but with difference of age it is ok? That is mess up.
edit: as for sin. It is a sin to kill and it is also a crime.
Chibibar
dude, you are dissing scum. These pedophile are worst than scum. To me, they are just meaty flesh target for my swords and guns (if I have a gun)It's always young boys because there's a loophole in church dogma somewhere that young boys are ok to have sex with or some shit like that...
Ash is right. The thought behind these hush ups is both to keep defamation on the lowkey and because the church tries to practice the whole forgiveness approach to it. Thing is, pedophiles are mentally disturbed individuals along the lines of rapists and serial killers. You can't just move them away to another position and hope things get better. These guys are the lowest form of scum, especially because of the position they hold over these young boys. Priests are supposed to be that one person you can go to who can and will help you with any struggle of life you're dealing with. If you want to talk about sin, I wish the church would recognize these wolves in sheep's clothing as the ultimate evil.
Even though I'm not really a practicing Catholic anymore, I was fortunate enough to experience being an alter boy for several priests who were in fact really good people. This is the case with many churches and it makes me sad to read about these horrible men that drag the whole institutions reputation down the toilet. As for the pope. I think the media is trying to stick it to him where he really doesn't deserve it.
but yea, the point I was trying to give was that two consenting adults are kick out of the church (or excommunicated) but with difference of age it is ok? That is mess up.
edit: as for sin. It is a sin to kill and it is also a crime.
#11
Chazwozel
Be a pedophile himself. I'm pretty sure he didn't do it with the intention of having them molest kids further...
Chazwozel
So moving priests into other areas when he knew they were pedophiles is forgivable? So what would he have to do to deserve what he's getting?[/QUOTE]As for the pope. I think the media is trying to stick it to him where he really doesn't deserve it.
Be a pedophile himself. I'm pretty sure he didn't do it with the intention of having them molest kids further...
#12
Dave
Be a pedophile himself. I'm pretty sure he didn't do it with the intention of having them molest kids further...[/QUOTE]
So he's not evil, just criminally stupid.
Dave
So moving priests into other areas when he knew they were pedophiles is forgivable? So what would he have to do to deserve what he's getting?[/QUOTE]As for the pope. I think the media is trying to stick it to him where he really doesn't deserve it.
Be a pedophile himself. I'm pretty sure he didn't do it with the intention of having them molest kids further...[/QUOTE]
So he's not evil, just criminally stupid.
#13
sixpackshaker
sixpackshaker
Another thing that plays into keeping these pedophiles on as priests after therapy; is the fact that over the last 60 years the church has been losing great numbers of priests. After the war men were not signing up in the numbers that they used to. So priests are really valuable commodities that they try to save.
#14
Chibibar
Chibibar
I can see the church side trying to save what little priests they have left, but in retrospect (good old hindsight 20/20) this is NOT helping to recruit future priest.Another thing that plays into keeping these pedophiles on as priests after therapy; is the fact that over the last 60 years the church has been losing great numbers of priests. After the war men were not signing up in the numbers that they used to. So priests are really valuable commodities that they try to save.
#15
Chazwozel
Be a pedophile himself. I'm pretty sure he didn't do it with the intention of having them molest kids further...[/QUOTE]
So he's not evil, just criminally stupid.[/QUOTE]
I'm guessing he was covering his own ass by not reporting it to the media, and being that he's not a physiologist but a priest, he believed that the pedophile would get better.
Chazwozel
So moving priests into other areas when he knew they were pedophiles is forgivable? So what would he have to do to deserve what he's getting?[/QUOTE]As for the pope. I think the media is trying to stick it to him where he really doesn't deserve it.
Be a pedophile himself. I'm pretty sure he didn't do it with the intention of having them molest kids further...[/QUOTE]
So he's not evil, just criminally stupid.[/QUOTE]
I'm guessing he was covering his own ass by not reporting it to the media, and being that he's not a physiologist but a priest, he believed that the pedophile would get better.
#16
AshburnerX
AshburnerX
I think the Sexual Liberation of America had a lot more to do with it than the War. The simple fact is that Catholic Priests can't get married or have families unless they had them before they joined the Church. This is a HUGE sacrifice to ask of anyone and unfortunately most people won't give it up. What they really need to do is admit women into the priesthood if they want to drive up numbers.Another thing that plays into keeping these pedophiles on as priests after therapy; is the fact that over the last 60 years the church has been losing great numbers of priests. After the war men were not signing up in the numbers that they used to. So priests are really valuable commodities that they try to save.
#17
Dave
Be a pedophile himself. I'm pretty sure he didn't do it with the intention of having them molest kids further...[/QUOTE]
So he's not evil, just criminally stupid.[/QUOTE]
I'm guessing he was covering his own ass by not reporting it to the media, and being that he's not a physiologist but a priest, he believed that the pedophile would get better.[/QUOTE]
I repeat, criminally stupid.
Dave
So moving priests into other areas when he knew they were pedophiles is forgivable? So what would he have to do to deserve what he's getting?[/QUOTE]As for the pope. I think the media is trying to stick it to him where he really doesn't deserve it.
Be a pedophile himself. I'm pretty sure he didn't do it with the intention of having them molest kids further...[/QUOTE]
So he's not evil, just criminally stupid.[/QUOTE]
I'm guessing he was covering his own ass by not reporting it to the media, and being that he's not a physiologist but a priest, he believed that the pedophile would get better.[/QUOTE]
I repeat, criminally stupid.
#18
Chazwozel
Be a pedophile himself. I'm pretty sure he didn't do it with the intention of having them molest kids further...[/QUOTE]
So he's not evil, just criminally stupid.[/QUOTE]
I'm guessing he was covering his own ass by not reporting it to the media, and being that he's not a physiologist but a priest, he believed that the pedophile would get better.[/QUOTE]
I repeat, criminally stupid.[/QUOTE]
I'd say more like naive and ignorant? He could have been a whistleblower, but the fact that he wasn't doesn't make him responsible for the crimes.
Chazwozel
So moving priests into other areas when he knew they were pedophiles is forgivable? So what would he have to do to deserve what he's getting?[/QUOTE]As for the pope. I think the media is trying to stick it to him where he really doesn't deserve it.
Be a pedophile himself. I'm pretty sure he didn't do it with the intention of having them molest kids further...[/QUOTE]
So he's not evil, just criminally stupid.[/QUOTE]
I'm guessing he was covering his own ass by not reporting it to the media, and being that he's not a physiologist but a priest, he believed that the pedophile would get better.[/QUOTE]
I repeat, criminally stupid.[/QUOTE]
I'd say more like naive and ignorant? He could have been a whistleblower, but the fact that he wasn't doesn't make him responsible for the crimes.
#19
Bowielee
Bowielee
Him not reporting the crimes to the police and actively covering them up does make him criminally responsible.
#20
Dave
Be a pedophile himself. I'm pretty sure he didn't do it with the intention of having them molest kids further...[/QUOTE]
So he's not evil, just criminally stupid.[/QUOTE]
I'm guessing he was covering his own ass by not reporting it to the media, and being that he's not a physiologist but a priest, he believed that the pedophile would get better.[/QUOTE]
I repeat, criminally stupid.[/QUOTE]
I'd say more like naive and ignorant? He could have been a whistleblower, but the fact that he wasn't doesn't make him responsible for the crimes.[/QUOTE]
If a subordinate of yours was caught molesting little boys and instead of turning him into the cops you sent him to work in another lab with the promise that he get counseling would you be at fault or not.
Why is it different if it's a clergyman?
Dave
So moving priests into other areas when he knew they were pedophiles is forgivable? So what would he have to do to deserve what he's getting?[/QUOTE]As for the pope. I think the media is trying to stick it to him where he really doesn't deserve it.
Be a pedophile himself. I'm pretty sure he didn't do it with the intention of having them molest kids further...[/QUOTE]
So he's not evil, just criminally stupid.[/QUOTE]
I'm guessing he was covering his own ass by not reporting it to the media, and being that he's not a physiologist but a priest, he believed that the pedophile would get better.[/QUOTE]
I repeat, criminally stupid.[/QUOTE]
I'd say more like naive and ignorant? He could have been a whistleblower, but the fact that he wasn't doesn't make him responsible for the crimes.[/QUOTE]
If a subordinate of yours was caught molesting little boys and instead of turning him into the cops you sent him to work in another lab with the promise that he get counseling would you be at fault or not.
Why is it different if it's a clergyman?
#21
Chazwozel
Chazwozel
You think companies don't do this to their upper end employees?!?!
#22
Dave
That makes it neither right nor morally acceptable. I think you are defending the indefensible.
Dave
And...?You think companies don't do this to their upper end employees?!?!
That makes it neither right nor morally acceptable. I think you are defending the indefensible.
#23
Philosopher B.
Philosopher B.
Child molesters should be taken to a field and shot, not moved around. Fuck the pope.
#24
Chazwozel
That makes it neither right nor morally acceptable. I think you are defending the indefensible.[/QUOTE]
I'm saying he's not responsible for that other priest's crimes.
Chazwozel
And...?You think companies don't do this to their upper end employees?!?!
That makes it neither right nor morally acceptable. I think you are defending the indefensible.[/QUOTE]
I'm saying he's not responsible for that other priest's crimes.
#25
Bowielee
That makes it neither right nor morally acceptable. I think you are defending the indefensible.[/QUOTE]
I'm saying he's not responsible for that other priest's crimes.[/QUOTE]
Yes, actually, he is. In covering it up, he is giving his tacit approval of the crime, giving permission for the perpetrator to do it again. I'm not all that up on the legal system, but doesn't that actually make him an accessory to the crime?
Bowielee
And...?You think companies don't do this to their upper end employees?!?!
That makes it neither right nor morally acceptable. I think you are defending the indefensible.[/QUOTE]
I'm saying he's not responsible for that other priest's crimes.[/QUOTE]
Yes, actually, he is. In covering it up, he is giving his tacit approval of the crime, giving permission for the perpetrator to do it again. I'm not all that up on the legal system, but doesn't that actually make him an accessory to the crime?
#26
Dave
Dave
I'm not to blame if my brother murders someone. If I know about it, help to cover it up and make it so my brother can go someplace and do it again I damn well am to blame for everything that happens after that.
#27
Iaculus
Be a pedophile himself. I'm pretty sure he didn't do it with the intention of having them molest kids further...[/QUOTE]
So he's not evil, just criminally stupid.[/QUOTE]
I'm guessing he was covering his own ass by not reporting it to the media, and being that he's not a physiologist but a priest, he believed that the pedophile would get better.[/QUOTE]
Psychologist, right?
Iaculus
So moving priests into other areas when he knew they were pedophiles is forgivable? So what would he have to do to deserve what he's getting?[/QUOTE]As for the pope. I think the media is trying to stick it to him where he really doesn't deserve it.
Be a pedophile himself. I'm pretty sure he didn't do it with the intention of having them molest kids further...[/QUOTE]
So he's not evil, just criminally stupid.[/QUOTE]
I'm guessing he was covering his own ass by not reporting it to the media, and being that he's not a physiologist but a priest, he believed that the pedophile would get better.[/QUOTE]
Psychologist, right?
#28
Chibibar
As for corporate, yea, that could happen too until a case broke out and all people are responsible for it when they try to help cover up (assuming the evidence points to them)
---------- Post added at 12:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:43 PM ----------
Chibibar
right... doesn't that fall under abating and aiding a criminal? (I think that is the right word)I'm not to blame if my brother murders someone. If I know about it, help to cover it up and make it so my brother can go someplace and do it again I damn well am to blame for everything that happens after that.
As for corporate, yea, that could happen too until a case broke out and all people are responsible for it when they try to help cover up (assuming the evidence points to them)
---------- Post added at 12:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:43 PM ----------
Let me go buy a gun and I'll help you shoot.Child molesters should be taken to a field and shot, not moved around. Fuck the pope.
#29
D
Dubyamn
D
Dubyamn
Here's something I've wondered since all the reports started coming out. What the fuck is behind all of the pedo priests?
Is there something about the church that causes pedos to flock to it? Is there something in the training that turns religious men into sick child abusing fucks? Or are there no more short eyes in the catholic church than elsewhere but they just had the opportunity to indulge their sickness?
I mean come on what the fuck is up with the crazy amount of abuse in the church?
Is there something about the church that causes pedos to flock to it? Is there something in the training that turns religious men into sick child abusing fucks? Or are there no more short eyes in the catholic church than elsewhere but they just had the opportunity to indulge their sickness?
I mean come on what the fuck is up with the crazy amount of abuse in the church?
#30
Chazwozel
Chazwozel
It happens in a lot of positions were people have power over others. As I recall, I remember reading a huge scandal in the orthodox Jewish community over rabbis that molested children. These were never brought to light until recently because to besmirch the name of a rabbi in orthodox communities pretty much means you excommunicate yourself.Here's something I've wondered since all the reports started coming out. What the fuck is behind all of the pedo priests?
Is there something about the church that causes pedos to flock to it? Is there something in the training that turns religious men into sick child abusing fucks? Or are there no more short eyes in the catholic church than elsewhere but they just had the opportunity to indulge their sickness?
I mean come on what the fuck is up with the crazy amount of abuse in the church?
#31
Dave
And do you support the rabbis who covered it up?
Dave
It happens in a lot of positions were people have power over others. As I recall, I remember reading a huge scandal in the orthodox Jewish community over rabbis that molested children. These were never brought to light until recently because to besmirch the name of a rabbi in orthodox communities pretty much means you excommunicate yourself.[/QUOTE]Here's something I've wondered since all the reports started coming out. What the fuck is behind all of the pedo priests?
Is there something about the church that causes pedos to flock to it? Is there something in the training that turns religious men into sick child abusing fucks? Or are there no more short eyes in the catholic church than elsewhere but they just had the opportunity to indulge their sickness?
I mean come on what the fuck is up with the crazy amount of abuse in the church?
And do you support the rabbis who covered it up?
#32
Eriol
I've seen conjecture both ways (people saying it's higher, people saying it's not), but does anybody have anything resembling "real" links on to the actual numbers?
For example, if 1 in 1000 adults are pedophiles (I pulled that number out of a hat), then it makes a difference if 5 out of 1000 priests are pedophiles, or if it's 1 out of 10,000 priests. Which is it?
Eriol
Is it crazy high? When you think of how large the organization is (with 1B followers worldwide, the organization itself has to be pretty big) is the incidence of it any higher than in the population at large?Here's something I've wondered since all the reports started coming out. What the fuck is behind all of the pedo priests?
Is there something about the church that causes pedos to flock to it? Is there something in the training that turns religious men into sick child abusing fucks? Or are there no more short eyes in the catholic church than elsewhere but they just had the opportunity to indulge their sickness?
I mean come on what the fuck is up with the crazy amount of abuse in the church?
I've seen conjecture both ways (people saying it's higher, people saying it's not), but does anybody have anything resembling "real" links on to the actual numbers?
For example, if 1 in 1000 adults are pedophiles (I pulled that number out of a hat), then it makes a difference if 5 out of 1000 priests are pedophiles, or if it's 1 out of 10,000 priests. Which is it?
#33
Green_Lantern
I've seen conjecture both ways (people saying it's higher, people saying it's not), but does anybody have anything resembling "real" links on to the actual numbers?
For example, if 1 in 1000 adults are pedophiles (I pulled that number out of a hat), then it makes a difference if 5 out of 1000 priests are pedophiles, or if it's 1 out of 10,000 priests. Which is it?[/QUOTE]
I don't think the problem is the number or the % of priests, but how the churches allow them to get away with it.
Green_Lantern
Is it crazy high? When you think of how large the organization is (with 1B followers worldwide, the organization itself has to be pretty big) is the incidence of it any higher than in the population at large?Here's something I've wondered since all the reports started coming out. What the fuck is behind all of the pedo priests?
Is there something about the church that causes pedos to flock to it? Is there something in the training that turns religious men into sick child abusing fucks? Or are there no more short eyes in the catholic church than elsewhere but they just had the opportunity to indulge their sickness?
I mean come on what the fuck is up with the crazy amount of abuse in the church?
I've seen conjecture both ways (people saying it's higher, people saying it's not), but does anybody have anything resembling "real" links on to the actual numbers?
For example, if 1 in 1000 adults are pedophiles (I pulled that number out of a hat), then it makes a difference if 5 out of 1000 priests are pedophiles, or if it's 1 out of 10,000 priests. Which is it?[/QUOTE]
I don't think the problem is the number or the % of priests, but how the churches allow them to get away with it.
#34
Chibibar
I've seen conjecture both ways (people saying it's higher, people saying it's not), but does anybody have anything resembling "real" links on to the actual numbers?
For example, if 1 in 1000 adults are pedophiles (I pulled that number out of a hat), then it makes a difference if 5 out of 1000 priests are pedophiles, or if it's 1 out of 10,000 priests. Which is it?[/QUOTE]
I don't think the problem is the number or the % of priests, but how the churches allow them to get away with it.[/QUOTE]
sadly. like Rape cases, many people may not come forward with this. We have already seen hundreds of children cases on this. It could be thousands (which to me is a lot regardless of 1 to 1000 or 5 to 1billion.)
I have to agree with GL. The main problem is that these priest are not being dealt with. They are just shuffle to a new location and STILL have access to children.
A normal non-priest would have a court order not to be NEAR children like 500+ feet or something, but being a priest, there is no such restriction.
Chibibar
Is it crazy high? When you think of how large the organization is (with 1B followers worldwide, the organization itself has to be pretty big) is the incidence of it any higher than in the population at large?Here's something I've wondered since all the reports started coming out. What the fuck is behind all of the pedo priests?
Is there something about the church that causes pedos to flock to it? Is there something in the training that turns religious men into sick child abusing fucks? Or are there no more short eyes in the catholic church than elsewhere but they just had the opportunity to indulge their sickness?
I mean come on what the fuck is up with the crazy amount of abuse in the church?
I've seen conjecture both ways (people saying it's higher, people saying it's not), but does anybody have anything resembling "real" links on to the actual numbers?
For example, if 1 in 1000 adults are pedophiles (I pulled that number out of a hat), then it makes a difference if 5 out of 1000 priests are pedophiles, or if it's 1 out of 10,000 priests. Which is it?[/QUOTE]
I don't think the problem is the number or the % of priests, but how the churches allow them to get away with it.[/QUOTE]
sadly. like Rape cases, many people may not come forward with this. We have already seen hundreds of children cases on this. It could be thousands (which to me is a lot regardless of 1 to 1000 or 5 to 1billion.)
I have to agree with GL. The main problem is that these priest are not being dealt with. They are just shuffle to a new location and STILL have access to children.
A normal non-priest would have a court order not to be NEAR children like 500+ feet or something, but being a priest, there is no such restriction.
#35
sixpackshaker
sixpackshaker
Also you guys need to look into the laws that were on the books at the time of the offenses. It was not until the 70's and 80's that it began to be a felony. It was the 90s before it was prosecuted as a serious crime. Many of the cases that are being discussed here happened 30-50 years ago.
Across the entire Western World it was swept under the rug in all walks of life. The only exception I can think of is when my Granddad likely killed a guy that molested one of his daughters.
Across the entire Western World it was swept under the rug in all walks of life. The only exception I can think of is when my Granddad likely killed a guy that molested one of his daughters.
#36
Steven Soderburgin
Steven Soderburgin
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/06/world/europe/06church.html?hpAlso you guys need to look into the laws that were on the books at the time of the offenses. It was not until the 70's and 80's that it began to be a felony. It was the 90s before it was prosecuted as a serious crime. Many of the cases that are being discussed here happened 30-50 years ago.
Across the entire Western World it was swept under the rug in all walks of life. The only exception I can think of is when my Granddad likely killed a guy that molested one of his daughters.
A Catholic priest who has been criminally charged with sexually assaulting a 14-year-old girl in Minnesota six years ago is still working in his home diocese in India despite warnings to the Vatican from an American bishop that the priest continued to pose a risk to children, according to church documents made public on Monday.
#37
tegid
Edit: Also, what Chaz says.
(Ahh, how I miss the 'hot topic' addon...)
tegid
Sex being forbidden and sexual repression in general may make them let their urges out in this horrible way. I guess?Here's something I've wondered since all the reports started coming out. What the fuck is behind all of the pedo priests?
Is there something about the church that causes pedos to flock to it? Is there something in the training that turns religious men into sick child abusing fucks? Or are there no more short eyes in the catholic church than elsewhere but they just had the opportunity to indulge their sickness?
I mean come on what the fuck is up with the crazy amount of abuse in the church?
Edit: Also, what Chaz says.
(Ahh, how I miss the 'hot topic' addon...)
#38
sixpackshaker
Looks like law enforcement in MN let him go. The Vatican recommended his removal and the Bishop in India said no.
sixpackshaker
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/06/world/europe/06church.html?hpAlso you guys need to look into the laws that were on the books at the time of the offenses. It was not until the 70's and 80's that it began to be a felony. It was the 90s before it was prosecuted as a serious crime. Many of the cases that are being discussed here happened 30-50 years ago.
Across the entire Western World it was swept under the rug in all walks of life. The only exception I can think of is when my Granddad likely killed a guy that molested one of his daughters.
[/QUOTE]A Catholic priest who has been criminally charged with sexually assaulting a 14-year-old girl in Minnesota six years ago is still working in his home diocese in India despite warnings to the Vatican from an American bishop that the priest continued to pose a risk to children, according to church documents made public on Monday.
Looks like law enforcement in MN let him go. The Vatican recommended his removal and the Bishop in India said no.
#39
tegid
I've seen conjecture both ways (people saying it's higher, people saying it's not), but does anybody have anything resembling "real" links on to the actual numbers?
For example, if 1 in 1000 adults are pedophiles (I pulled that number out of a hat), then it makes a difference if 5 out of 1000 priests are pedophiles, or if it's 1 out of 10,000 priests. Which is it?[/QUOTE]
A priest is in a position that makes it easier to be a pedophile, and maybe that's because the percentage is higher (if it is). It is for this same reason that the percentage should be significantly lower and the cases dealt with firmly.
Also, the 1B figure is counting LOTS of people who are actually not catholics.
tegid
Is it crazy high? When you think of how large the organization is (with 1B followers worldwide, the organization itself has to be pretty big) is the incidence of it any higher than in the population at large?Here's something I've wondered since all the reports started coming out. What the fuck is behind all of the pedo priests?
Is there something about the church that causes pedos to flock to it? Is there something in the training that turns religious men into sick child abusing fucks? Or are there no more short eyes in the catholic church than elsewhere but they just had the opportunity to indulge their sickness?
I mean come on what the fuck is up with the crazy amount of abuse in the church?
I've seen conjecture both ways (people saying it's higher, people saying it's not), but does anybody have anything resembling "real" links on to the actual numbers?
For example, if 1 in 1000 adults are pedophiles (I pulled that number out of a hat), then it makes a difference if 5 out of 1000 priests are pedophiles, or if it's 1 out of 10,000 priests. Which is it?[/QUOTE]
A priest is in a position that makes it easier to be a pedophile, and maybe that's because the percentage is higher (if it is). It is for this same reason that the percentage should be significantly lower and the cases dealt with firmly.
Also, the 1B figure is counting LOTS of people who are actually not catholics.
#40
Steven Soderburgin
Steven Soderburgin
Uh, they are actually trying to get the priest extradited and the bishop is like "Well he told me he's innocent soooooo"Looks like law enforcement in MN let him go. The Vatican recommended his removal and the Bishop in India said no.
#41
tegid
(Funnily, in countries where there are more priests and the Church holds more power, such as Spain or Italy, there haven't been outrageous discoveries like in the States, Ireland or Germany. Makes you think...)
tegid
Well, this has been happening all over the world, and although the number of priests has decreased everywhere but Africa, in some places it hasn't so much that it would be used as an excuse.Another thing that plays into keeping these pedophiles on as priests after therapy; is the fact that over the last 60 years the church has been losing great numbers of priests. After the war men were not signing up in the numbers that they used to. So priests are really valuable commodities that they try to save.
(Funnily, in countries where there are more priests and the Church holds more power, such as Spain or Italy, there haven't been outrageous discoveries like in the States, Ireland or Germany. Makes you think...)
#42
sixpackshaker
Extradition is not a fast process. A foreign national should have been considered a flight risk. And the trail should have been expedited. Law enforcement should treat the crime as seriously as it appears to be.
sixpackshaker
Uh, they are actually trying to get the priest extradited and the bishop is like "Well he told me he's innocent soooooo"[/QUOTE]Looks like law enforcement in MN let him go. The Vatican recommended his removal and the Bishop in India said no.
Extradition is not a fast process. A foreign national should have been considered a flight risk. And the trail should have been expedited. Law enforcement should treat the crime as seriously as it appears to be.
#43
Steven Soderburgin
Extradition is not a fast process. A foreign national should have been considered a flight risk. And the trail should have been expedited. Law enforcement should treat the crime as seriously as it appears to be.[/QUOTE]where are you getting the idea that law enforcement hasn't been treating it seriously?
Steven Soderburgin
Uh, they are actually trying to get the priest extradited and the bishop is like "Well he told me he's innocent soooooo"[/QUOTE]Looks like law enforcement in MN let him go. The Vatican recommended his removal and the Bishop in India said no.
Extradition is not a fast process. A foreign national should have been considered a flight risk. And the trail should have been expedited. Law enforcement should treat the crime as seriously as it appears to be.[/QUOTE]where are you getting the idea that law enforcement hasn't been treating it seriously?
#44
Chazwozel
And do you support the rabbis who covered it up?[/QUOTE]
The whole community covers it up! I don't believe I ever mentioned supporting the Pope one way or another. I simply said he's not at fault for the priest's actions. Saying he is guilty is pretty much like blaming a rape victim for dressing too sexy.
Chazwozel
It happens in a lot of positions were people have power over others. As I recall, I remember reading a huge scandal in the orthodox Jewish community over rabbis that molested children. These were never brought to light until recently because to besmirch the name of a rabbi in orthodox communities pretty much means you excommunicate yourself.[/QUOTE]Here's something I've wondered since all the reports started coming out. What the fuck is behind all of the pedo priests?
Is there something about the church that causes pedos to flock to it? Is there something in the training that turns religious men into sick child abusing fucks? Or are there no more short eyes in the catholic church than elsewhere but they just had the opportunity to indulge their sickness?
I mean come on what the fuck is up with the crazy amount of abuse in the church?
And do you support the rabbis who covered it up?[/QUOTE]
The whole community covers it up! I don't believe I ever mentioned supporting the Pope one way or another. I simply said he's not at fault for the priest's actions. Saying he is guilty is pretty much like blaming a rape victim for dressing too sexy.
#45
sixpackshaker
Extradition is not a fast process. A foreign national should have been considered a flight risk. And the trail should have been expedited. Law enforcement should treat the crime as seriously as it appears to be.[/QUOTE]where are you getting the idea that law enforcement hasn't been treating it seriously?[/QUOTE]
That a foreign national charged with a felony is a flight risk. Revoke his passport, deny bail, there are many things they could have done to keep him stateside and ready to stand trail.
---------- Post added at 08:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:41 PM ----------
And do you support the rabbis who covered it up?[/QUOTE]
The whole community covers it up![/QUOTE]
Correct, it was not until about 15 years back that the governments and prosecutors started cracking down on this crime.
sixpackshaker
Uh, they are actually trying to get the priest extradited and the bishop is like "Well he told me he's innocent soooooo"[/QUOTE]Looks like law enforcement in MN let him go. The Vatican recommended his removal and the Bishop in India said no.
Extradition is not a fast process. A foreign national should have been considered a flight risk. And the trail should have been expedited. Law enforcement should treat the crime as seriously as it appears to be.[/QUOTE]where are you getting the idea that law enforcement hasn't been treating it seriously?[/QUOTE]
That a foreign national charged with a felony is a flight risk. Revoke his passport, deny bail, there are many things they could have done to keep him stateside and ready to stand trail.
---------- Post added at 08:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:41 PM ----------
It happens in a lot of positions were people have power over others. As I recall, I remember reading a huge scandal in the orthodox Jewish community over rabbis that molested children. These were never brought to light until recently because to besmirch the name of a rabbi in orthodox communities pretty much means you excommunicate yourself.[/QUOTE]Here's something I've wondered since all the reports started coming out. What the fuck is behind all of the pedo priests?
Is there something about the church that causes pedos to flock to it? Is there something in the training that turns religious men into sick child abusing fucks? Or are there no more short eyes in the catholic church than elsewhere but they just had the opportunity to indulge their sickness?
I mean come on what the fuck is up with the crazy amount of abuse in the church?
And do you support the rabbis who covered it up?[/QUOTE]
The whole community covers it up![/QUOTE]
Correct, it was not until about 15 years back that the governments and prosecutors started cracking down on this crime.
#46
Steven Soderburgin
Steven Soderburgin
Apparently, the suit being brought against the Diocese is recent. Previously, the reports of abuse were only within the Church and they weren't really in a hurry to report the priest to police, so the priest was reassigned to India before a suit was brought.That a foreign national charged with a felony is a flight risk. Revoke his passport, deny bail, there are many things they could have done to keep him stateside and ready to stand trail.
#47
Chibibar
Chibibar
he is not at fault if he didn't know anything about it. BUT he DID know about it and just transfer the guy (before he became pope) that makes him responsible.The whole community covers it up! I don't believe I ever mentioned supporting the Pope one way or another. I simply said he's not at fault for the priest's actions. Saying he is guilty is pretty much like blaming a rape victim for dressing too sexy.
#48
tegid
If he covers up a crime and the criminal commits it again he is partially to blame, regardless of the reason that made him take the decision, be it evilness, goodwill or plain idiocy.
tegid
No it's not. At all.The whole community covers it up! I don't believe I ever mentioned supporting the Pope one way or another. I simply said he's not at fault for the priest's actions. Saying he is guilty is pretty much like blaming a rape victim for dressing too sexy.
If he covers up a crime and the criminal commits it again he is partially to blame, regardless of the reason that made him take the decision, be it evilness, goodwill or plain idiocy.
#49
sixpackshaker
sixpackshaker
You guys were asking for the numbers/stats earlier...
http://www.psychwww.com/psyrelig/plante.html
Roughly speaking 2-5% of active priests over the last 50 years have had sex with a minor. The general population for males is 8%.
http://www.psychwww.com/psyrelig/plante.html
Roughly speaking 2-5% of active priests over the last 50 years have had sex with a minor. The general population for males is 8%.
#50
Steven Soderburgin
Steven Soderburgin
Oh, also I missed Chazwozel's post but seriously, in what world does Ratzinger saying "Hmm, this guy has been sexually abusing children, well we'll just hush this up and move him to another parish where he'll have access to children and no one will be able to find out about what he did before, ah, a job well done" not mean he is partially responsible for this shit?
#51
D
Dubyamn
We should have compassion for the sexually abusive priests because 70% of pedos have been abused so by inference the majority of sexually predatory priests have been abused? Bullshit, complete bullshit. They don't need treatment, they need to be kept the fuck away from kids.
Next he suggests that the church investigate accusations of abuse before informing the authorities. NO absolutely not. The church needs to contact the police immediately after and accusation is made. Not follow this guy's idiotic advice which is exactly "do what they have always done. Only this time involve the psychiatrists"
This article is absurd absolutely absurd.
D
Dubyamn
Would be a significantly better article if it wasn't a huge apology for the Catholic church. 40 years ago sexually abusing minors was a crime the catholic church actively covered up those crimes.You guys were asking for the numbers/stats earlier...
http://www.psychwww.com/psyrelig/plante.html
Roughly speaking 2-5% of active priests over the last 50 years have had sex with a minor. The general population for males is 8%.
We should have compassion for the sexually abusive priests because 70% of pedos have been abused so by inference the majority of sexually predatory priests have been abused? Bullshit, complete bullshit. They don't need treatment, they need to be kept the fuck away from kids.
Next he suggests that the church investigate accusations of abuse before informing the authorities. NO absolutely not. The church needs to contact the police immediately after and accusation is made. Not follow this guy's idiotic advice which is exactly "do what they have always done. Only this time involve the psychiatrists"
This article is absurd absolutely absurd.
#52
Steven Soderburgin
Steven Soderburgin
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/the-pedophiles-paradise/Content?oid=1065017
But seriously, the Catholic Church is tired of all the persecutionThe \"Pedophile's Paradise\"
Alaska Natives are accusing the Catholic Church of using their remote villages as a “dumping ground” for child-molesting priests—and blaming the president of Seattle University for letting it happen.
One spring afternoon in 1977, 15-year-old Rachel Mike tried to kill herself for the third time. An Alaska Native, Rachel was living in a tiny town called Stebbins on a remote island called St. Michael. She lived in a house with three bedrooms and nine siblings. Rachel was a drinker, depressed, and starving. \"When my parents were drinking, we didn't eat right,\" she says. \"I just wanted to get away from the drinking.\"
Rachel walked to the bathroom to fetch the family rifle, propped in the bathtub with the dirty laundry (the house didn't have running water). To make sure the gun worked, Rachel loaded a shell and blew a hole in her bedroom wall. Her father, passed out on his bed, didn't hear the shot. Rachel walked behind their small house. Her arms were too short to put the rifle to her head, so she shot herself in her right leg instead.
Rachel was found screaming in a pool of blood by her Auntie Emily and flown 229 miles to a hospital in Nome. The doctor asked if she wanted to see a priest. She said yes. In walked Father James Poole—a popular priest, radio personality on KNOM, and, according to allegations in at least five lawsuits, serial child rapist. Father Poole has never been convicted of a crime, but the Jesuits have settled numerous sex-abuse claims against him since 2005, in excess of $5 million, according to an attorney involved in four of those five lawsuits. Exact figures aren't available because some of the settlements involve confidentiality agreements. The Jesuits have never let a single case against Father Poole go to trial.
In a 2005 deposition, Rachel testified that she had been molested by Father Poole in 1975, while in Nome for her second suicide attempt, an attempted overdose of alcohol and pills. He'd come sit by her bed, put his hand under the hospital blanket, and fondle her, she said.
She traveled between Stebbins and Nome several times in the late 1970s, spending time in hospitals and receiving homes. By 1977, Rachel testified, Poole had given her gonorrhea, and by 1978 she was pregnant with his child. In an interview with The Stranger, she said Poole encouraged her to get an abortion and tell the doctors she had been raped by her father. She followed his advice. \"He brainwashed me,\" she said. \"He messed up my head, man.\"
Rachel Mike's father died in 2004. A year later, she heard Elsie Boudreau, another survivor of Poole's abuse, being interviewed on the radio. Listening to Boudreau, Rachel was moved to finally tell the truth.
\"He's gone, and I'll never have a chance to tell him in person,\" she said, talking about her father between heaving sobs. \"I was scared. In a way he knew, but—he never even touched me.\"
\"This man,\" says Anchorage-based attorney Ken Roosa, referring to Poole, \"has left a trail of carnage behind him.\"
The only reason Poole is not in jail, Roosa says, is the statute of limitations. And the reason he's still a priest, being cared for by the church? \"Jim Poole is elderly,\" answered Very Reverend Patrick J. Lee, head of the Northwest Jesuits, by e-mail. \"He lives in a Jesuit community under an approved safety plan that includes 24-hour supervision.\"
Father James Poole's story is not an isolated case in Alaska. On the morning of January 14 in Seattle, Ken Roosa and a small group Alaska Natives stood on the sidewalk outside Seattle University to announce a new lawsuit against the Jesuits, claiming a widespread conspiracy to dump pedophile priests in isolated Native villages where they could abuse children off the radar.
\"They did it because there was no money there, no power, no police,\" Roosa said to the assembled cameras and microphones. \"It was a pedophile's paradise.\" He described a chain of poor Native villages where priests—many of them serial sex offenders—reigned supreme. \"We are going to shine some light on a dark and dirty corner of the Jesuit order.\"
...
Roosa and his associate Patrick Wall (a former Benedictine monk who once worked as a sex-abuse fixer for the Catholic Church) said they knew of 345 cases of molestation in Alaska by 28 perpetrators who came from at least four different countries.
This concentration of abuses is orders of magnitude greater than Catholic sex-abuse cases in other parts of the United States. Today, Roosa said, there are 17,000 Catholics in the diocese of Fairbanks, though there was a much smaller number during the peak of the abuse. Roosa compared this lawsuit to the famous Los Angeles suits of 2001, which claimed 550 victims of abuse in a Catholic population of 3.4 million.
These abusers in Alaska, Wall said, were specifically sent to Alaska \"to get them off the grid, where they could do the least amount of damage\" to the church's public image.
...
They say that, in one incident, this priest was called to a house in Yakima to administer last rites to a dying woman in 1989. \"He raped the woman on her deathbed,\" Roosa says. \"He told the family to go into the other room, the husband heard a weird noise, went into the bedroom, and caught him raping his unconscious wife.\"
VATICAN CITY – The Vatican heatedly defended Pope Benedict XVI on Tuesday, claiming accusations that he helped cover up the actions of pedophile priests are part of an anti-Catholic \"hate\" campaign targeting the pope for his opposition to abortion and same-sex marriage.
Vatican Radio broadcast comments by two senior cardinals explaining \"the motive for these attacks\" on the pope and the Vatican newspaper chipped in with spirited comments from another top cardinal.
\"The pope defends life and the family, based on marriage between a man and a woman, in a world in which powerful lobbies would like to impose a completely different\" agenda, Spanish Cardinal Julian Herranz, head of the disciplinary commission for Holy See officials, said on the radio.
Herranz didn't identify the lobbies but \"defense of life\" is Vatican shorthand for anti-abortion efforts.
Also arguing that Benedict's promotion of conservative family models had provoked the so-called attacks was the Vatican's dean of the College of Cardinals, Angelo Sodano.
\"By now, it's a cultural contrast,\" Sodano told the Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano. \"The pope embodies moral truths that aren't accepted, and so, the shortcomings and errors of priests are used as weapons against the church.\"
Also rallying to Benedict's side was Italian Cardinal Giovanni Lajolo, who heads the Vatican City State's governing apparatus.
The pope \"has done all that he could have\" against sex abuse by clergy of minors, Lajolo said on Vatican radio, decrying what he described as a campaign of \"hatred against the Catholic church.\"
#53
Chibibar
Chibibar
I have no hate on the Catholic church. My hate lies with the pedophiles that GET AWAY within the church.
And I'm not even a Catholic (at least not anymore. I was by birth years ago then turn Buddist)
And I'm not even a Catholic (at least not anymore. I was by birth years ago then turn Buddist)
#54
Steven Soderburgin
Steven Soderburgin
I dunno, I kind of hate the Catholic Church for hushing all this up and enabling it to continue. Also their blatant anti-gay policies but ~*THAT'S ANOTHER THREAD*~
#55
Dave
Dave
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VABSoHYQr6k
---------- Post added at 08:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:07 AM ----------
By the way, NSFW language!!
---------- Post added at 08:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:07 AM ----------
By the way, NSFW language!!
#56
Chazwozel
Hey! According to the nice evangelical lady that gave me a pamphlet last night at my doorstep, YOU'RE the pedo here, Mr. Gaypants! How dare you stalk all hours of the night and try to sodomize our children!
Seriously though, the Catholic church has backward anti-gay relations, but ain't nothing compared to the bible thumping crazies.
Personally, I think all religion is pretty fucked in the head, but I enjoy its traditions (like Easter dinner, Christmas, etc...) I think, really, the only "religion" that has it down is Zen Buddhism.
Dave, I've been thinking it over and reading a few more articles on the matter, and I agree with you. The Pope does have a responsibility and has some fault to shoulder.
Chazwozel
I dunno, I kind of hate the Catholic Church for hushing all this up and enabling it to continue. Also their blatant anti-gay policies but ~*THAT'S ANOTHER THREAD*~
Hey! According to the nice evangelical lady that gave me a pamphlet last night at my doorstep, YOU'RE the pedo here, Mr. Gaypants! How dare you stalk all hours of the night and try to sodomize our children!
Seriously though, the Catholic church has backward anti-gay relations, but ain't nothing compared to the bible thumping crazies.
Personally, I think all religion is pretty fucked in the head, but I enjoy its traditions (like Easter dinner, Christmas, etc...) I think, really, the only "religion" that has it down is Zen Buddhism.
Dave, I've been thinking it over and reading a few more articles on the matter, and I agree with you. The Pope does have a responsibility and has some fault to shoulder.
#57
Chibibar
Chibibar
LOL...... I gotta finish this at home. Cause I don't want to get into trouble at work.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VABSoHYQr6k
---------- Post added at 08:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:07 AM ----------
By the way, NSFW language!!
#58
Bowielee
Bowielee
I know old meme is old, but...
#59
Chibibar
Chibibar
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100409/ap_on_re_us/us_pope_church_abuse
newest article.
I like the fact that
FACT: MANY MANY letters were sent to the the Future Pope and nothing has been done (i.e. late action or no action for sometime)
FACT: These priest continue to work with children AND continue to molest them
FACT: These are dated letters to the Vatican. Last time I check, it doesn't take more than 2 weeks to send a handwritten letter to anywhere around the world (most populous place) Vatican isn't exactly backward. So waiting YEARS for a response is a bit much.
I don't know how much "misrepresent" can be done here.
newest article.
I like the fact that
There isn't much fact to be misrepresented.The Vatican has called the accusations \"absolutely groundless\" and said the facts were being misrepresented.
FACT: MANY MANY letters were sent to the the Future Pope and nothing has been done (i.e. late action or no action for sometime)
FACT: These priest continue to work with children AND continue to molest them
FACT: These are dated letters to the Vatican. Last time I check, it doesn't take more than 2 weeks to send a handwritten letter to anywhere around the world (most populous place) Vatican isn't exactly backward. So waiting YEARS for a response is a bit much.
I don't know how much "misrepresent" can be done here.
#60
Steven Soderburgin
Steven Soderburgin
Hahaha was just gonna come post that.
YEP I don't really know how anyone can defend the Pope or the Church about this at this point!
Not that I understood how anyone could defend the Pope or the Church before BUT STILL
YEP I don't really know how anyone can defend the Pope or the Church about this at this point!
Not that I understood how anyone could defend the Pope or the Church before BUT STILL
#61
Chibibar
Note: 200 years ago, people married at age 13-16 give or take due to people usually die around 40-50 (that is average life expectancy) 1970s isn't exactly 200 years ago. Also wasn't a director fled the country when he molest a girl back in the 70s (I forgot his name)
edit: What is WORST is that this guy HAS A record (i.e. serve time in Jail) and WAS still ALLOW to associate with children. That totally baffles me.
Chibibar
The only "misrepresent" part I can even think about is that the Future pope was trying to avoid a scandal vs protecting the children (Lawyer and News interpretation) but last I check, molesting children can be a pretty big scandal. I know that just recently it has been surfacing, but I cannot think unless it is over 200 years ago, that molesting children was ok.Hahaha was just gonna come post that.
YEP I don't really know how anyone can defend the Pope or the Church about this at this point!
Not that I understood how anyone could defend the Pope or the Church before BUT STILL
Note: 200 years ago, people married at age 13-16 give or take due to people usually die around 40-50 (that is average life expectancy) 1970s isn't exactly 200 years ago. Also wasn't a director fled the country when he molest a girl back in the 70s (I forgot his name)
edit: What is WORST is that this guy HAS A record (i.e. serve time in Jail) and WAS still ALLOW to associate with children. That totally baffles me.
#62
Steven Soderburgin
Steven Soderburgin
Well, I can see why Ratzinger had trouble deciding what to do
on one hand, the good of the universal church
on the other, tons of children being molested by a gleefully unrepentant, heinous rapist
tough choice.
on one hand, the good of the universal church
on the other, tons of children being molested by a gleefully unrepentant, heinous rapist
tough choice.
#63
Chibibar
Chibibar
heh. Maybe there is something that we are missing. Maybe it is one of the Cardinal Laws that a priest are allow to molest children without fear of priesthood removal. I mean, to most of us, it is pretty black and white on the issue. I am not sure how the Vatican thinks it is ok for this. I am even more surprise there isn't an edict/laws/pope's command that molesting children = removal from priesthood.Well, I can see why Ratzinger had trouble deciding what to do
on one hand, the good of the universal church
on the other, tons of children being molested by a gleefully unrepentant, heinous rapist
tough choice.
#64
SpecialKO
SpecialKO
You mean you're wondering whether there was some structural motivation behind it besides "guys in power trying to avoid a scandal"?
#65
Chibibar
Chibibar
I guess. I mean most churches trying to promote family values, monogamy, and all that traditional stuff. My thought is trying to figure out how "don't worry about child abuse by the very priest who is tending the flock" mix into all this. This is NOT the first case nor the last. After seeing many court cases and settlement by the Vatican, there are many cases and the Vatican DO keep tabs on EVERYTHING that is going on in their domain so........... why even cover up in the first place? I would think at least someone would have said, "if this thing blows up, it is going to look REALLY bad for the church" but they decides to chance it?You mean you're wondering whether there was some structural motivation behind it besides "guys in power trying to avoid a scandal"?
#66
Steven Soderburgin
Steven Soderburgin
http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/04/11/connecticut.abuse.bill/index.html?hpt=T1
So the Connecticut bishops came out against this proposed law because it would make rapists more vulnerable to prosecution. They are basically coming out and saying they are pro-rape now.Hartford, Connecticut (CNN) -- A bill in Connecticut's legislature that would remove the statute of limitations on child sexual abuse cases has sparked a fervent response from the state's Roman Catholic bishops, who released a letter to parishioners Saturday imploring them to oppose the measure.
Under current Connecticut law, sexual abuse victims have 30 years past their 18th birthday to file a lawsuit. The proposed change to the law would rescind that statute of limitations.
The proposed change to the law would put \"all Church institutions, including your parish, at risk,\" says the letter, which was signed by Connecticut's three Roman Catholic bishops.
The letter is posted on the Web site of the Connecticut Catholic Public Affairs Conference, the public policy and advocacy office of Connecticut's Catholic bishops. It asks parishioners to contact their legislators in opposition of the bill.
The \"legislation would undermine the mission of the Catholic Church in Connecticut, threatening our parishes, our schools, and our Catholic Charities,\" the letter says.
The Catholic archdiocese of Hartford also published a pulpit announcement on its Web site, which was to be read during Mass on Sunday, urging parishioners to express opposition to the bill.
The bill has been revised to address some of the church's concerns about frivolous abuse claims against it, according to Connecticut state Rep. Beth Bye, one of the bill's sponsors.
\"The church didn't recognize that this bill makes improvements,\" Bye said. \"The victims -- their lives have been changed and some will never recover from years of sexual abuse. For me, it's about giving them access to the courts.\"
Under the bill's provisions, anyone older than 48 who makes a sex abuse claim against the church would need to join an existing claim filed by someone 48 or younger. Older claimants would need to show substantial proof that they were abused.
\"They were worried about frivolous lawsuits and so we made the bar high,\" Bye said.
The bill does not target the Catholic Church, she said.
The bishops' letter raised concerns that the bill would allow claims that are 70 years or older, in which \"key individuals are deceased, memories have been faded, and documents and other evidence have been lost.\" The letter said that the majority of cases would be driven by \"trial lawyers hoping to profit from these cases.\"
The bill passed in Connecticut's House of Representatives, and Bye said the state Senate should vote on it in the next week or two.
#67
@Li3n
@Li3n
Oh man, it's always hilarious when an organization tries to stave off a scandal in such a way that they just cause an even bigger PR nightmare...
#68
Dave
Dave
Aw! I came in to post that story!
I'm trying to figure out how in the world they thought this would be a good idea. Does no one in power ever look at these things and think "This is a bad idea."
I'm trying to figure out how in the world they thought this would be a good idea. Does no one in power ever look at these things and think "This is a bad idea."
#69
North_Ranger
North_Ranger
It's easy, Dave: the government can only harsh your mellow in this life. The Church, however, has you by the balls for the whole afterlife. [/snarky]
#70
Chazwozel
Chazwozel
http://www.smh.com.au/world/child-abuse-is-a-gay-problem-says-vatican-20100414-se4y.html
The Vatican's Secretary of State - No. 2 to the Pope himself - has suggested the paedophilia crisis engulfing the Catholic Church is linked to homosexuality, not priests' celibacy. During a press conference in Chile, Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone also insisted that the church has never stymied investigation of priests accused of paedophilia.
''Many psychologists and psychiatrists have demonstrated that there is no relation between celibacy and paedophilia,'' the cardinal said. ''But many others have demonstrated, I have been told recently, that there is a relation between homosexuality and pedophilia. That is true. That is the problem.''
The cardinal's remarks have sparked a storm of controversy in Italy as well as Chile, where they were strongly criticised by politicians and medical experts, who accused the Secretary of State of ''vast generalisations''.
Senator Juan Antonio Coloma, president of the right-wing Independent Democratic Union, told the Chilean newspaper La Nacion that while he understood the claims were made in good faith, they were generalisations that could not be sustained.
Senator Patricio Walker of the Christian Democrats categorically disagreed with the comments. ''Paedophilia is a mental and sexual abnormality that affects both heterosexuals and homosexuals,'' he said.
''I would like to see what studies he is talking about because I would find it fairly surprising to see evidence for these claims.''
Cardinal Bertone's comments follow a series of claims from senior Vatican and Catholic officials over the past few weeks that the charges of clerical abuse and their cover-up by the church that have emerged in Europe, the US, Ireland and Australia are a product of media gossip and exaggeration.
Rolando Jimenez, president of the Movement for Homosexual Integration and Liberation in Chile, said no reputable study exists to support Monsignor Bertone's comments.
In Italy, Aurelio Mancuso, former president of the gay rights association, Arcigay, said: ''The truth is that Bertone is clumsily trying to shift attention to homosexuality and away from the focus on new crimes against children that emerge every day.''
The Pope's press secretary, Federico Lombardi, said the pontiff might consider a private meeting with victims of clerical sexual abuse in Malta during a visit there next weekend. But he said the Pope should not be pressured by the media and should be given the space to listen to and communicate with the victims.
Newspapers in Chile reported that the most prominent paedophiles uncovered in the Chilean church attacked young girls and made a teenager pregnant.
The archbishop of Santiago at the time was shown to have received multiple complaints about Father Jose Andres Aguirre from the families of the young girls. But the priest was allowed to continue serving at several Catholic girls' schools. The church later moved Aguirre out of Chile twice and he was finally sentenced to 12 years in prison for abusing 10 teenage girls.
In La Nacion, one of the young women, identified only as Paula, said she had been abused between the ages of 16 and 20. She said when she told other priests at confession, they simply told her to pray but ''everyone looked the other way. No one corrected or helped me''.
The Associated Press reported that she said one of the priests she confessed to about her sex with Aguirre was Francisco Jose Cox, who had been bishop in La Serena, in northern Chile, for several years but was removed in 1997 amid rumours he was a paedophile and transferred to Santiago, then Rome, then Colombia and finally Germany.
The Schoenstatt movement, a worldwide lay community within the Catholic Church, is reported to have paid for his transfers as well as ''treatment''. He was finally removed for ''inappropriate conduct'' in 2002.
#71
SpecialKO
SpecialKO
Oh good god.
#72
Steven Soderburgin
Steven Soderburgin
So just to recap, this is who the Catholic Church blames for the sex abuse scandal
The Jews
Satan
Freemasons
The Gays, as reported above
The New York Times
But it couldn't possibly be a powerful institution protecting its own interests above those of sexually abused and raped children.
The Jews
Satan
Freemasons
The Gays, as reported above
The New York Times
But it couldn't possibly be a powerful institution protecting its own interests above those of sexually abused and raped children.
#73
Green_Lantern
Green_Lantern
FTFYSo just to recap, this is who the Catholic Church blames for the sex abuse scandal
Not themselves, but The Jews
Not themselves, but Satan
Not themselves, but Freemasons
Not themselves, but The Gays, as reported above
Not themselves, but The New York Times
But it couldn't possibly be a powerful institution protecting its own interests above those of sexually abused and raped children.
#74
Steven Soderburgin
Steven Soderburgin
I thought I covered that with my last line there
#75
Green_Lantern
Green_Lantern
There is always room for improvement ^^I thought I covered that with my last line there
#76
Seraphyn
Seraphyn
If anything, this is just really sad and is pretty much spitting in the faces of those who were abused.
Man up already and just accept it happened, take steps to prevent it and apologize to those hurt. Lousy 'excuses' never helped anyone. Not that they ever will though, it's pretty much what they've been doing since they came into existence.
Man up already and just accept it happened, take steps to prevent it and apologize to those hurt. Lousy 'excuses' never helped anyone. Not that they ever will though, it's pretty much what they've been doing since they came into existence.
#77
Troll
Troll
Dear Gay people,
Please stop being responsible for all the evils in the world. Thanks.
Please stop being responsible for all the evils in the world. Thanks.
#78
Bowielee
Bowielee
Sorry, my bad, won't happen again.Dear Gay people,
Please stop being responsible for all the evils in the world. Thanks.
#79
Chibibar
so........ if a person who is a member of the church (just a person who goes to church) turns out gay, they will be cast out and excommunicated. BUT if that person is a priest, they get to stay?
Talk about double standards.
Chibibar
http://www.smh.com.au/world/child-abuse-is-a-gay-problem-says-vatican-20100414-se4y.html
The Vatican's Secretary of State - No. 2 to the Pope himself - has suggested the paedophilia crisis engulfing the Catholic Church is linked to homosexuality, not priests' celibacy. During a press conference in Chile, Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone also insisted that the church has never stymied investigation of priests accused of paedophilia.
''Many psychologists and psychiatrists have demonstrated that there is no relation between celibacy and paedophilia,'' the cardinal said. ''But many others have demonstrated, I have been told recently, that there is a relation between homosexuality and pedophilia. That is true. That is the problem.''
The cardinal's remarks have sparked a storm of controversy in Italy as well as Chile, where they were strongly criticised by politicians and medical experts, who accused the Secretary of State of ''vast generalisations''.
Senator Juan Antonio Coloma, president of the right-wing Independent Democratic Union, told the Chilean newspaper La Nacion that while he understood the claims were made in good faith, they were generalisations that could not be sustained.
Senator Patricio Walker of the Christian Democrats categorically disagreed with the comments. ''Paedophilia is a mental and sexual abnormality that affects both heterosexuals and homosexuals,'' he said.
''I would like to see what studies he is talking about because I would find it fairly surprising to see evidence for these claims.''
Cardinal Bertone's comments follow a series of claims from senior Vatican and Catholic officials over the past few weeks that the charges of clerical abuse and their cover-up by the church that have emerged in Europe, the US, Ireland and Australia are a product of media gossip and exaggeration.
Rolando Jimenez, president of the Movement for Homosexual Integration and Liberation in Chile, said no reputable study exists to support Monsignor Bertone's comments.
In Italy, Aurelio Mancuso, former president of the gay rights association, Arcigay, said: ''The truth is that Bertone is clumsily trying to shift attention to homosexuality and away from the focus on new crimes against children that emerge every day.''
The Pope's press secretary, Federico Lombardi, said the pontiff might consider a private meeting with victims of clerical sexual abuse in Malta during a visit there next weekend. But he said the Pope should not be pressured by the media and should be given the space to listen to and communicate with the victims.
Newspapers in Chile reported that the most prominent paedophiles uncovered in the Chilean church attacked young girls and made a teenager pregnant.
The archbishop of Santiago at the time was shown to have received multiple complaints about Father Jose Andres Aguirre from the families of the young girls. But the priest was allowed to continue serving at several Catholic girls' schools. The church later moved Aguirre out of Chile twice and he was finally sentenced to 12 years in prison for abusing 10 teenage girls.
In La Nacion, one of the young women, identified only as Paula, said she had been abused between the ages of 16 and 20. She said when she told other priests at confession, they simply told her to pray but ''everyone looked the other way. No one corrected or helped me''.
The Associated Press reported that she said one of the priests she confessed to about her sex with Aguirre was Francisco Jose Cox, who had been bishop in La Serena, in northern Chile, for several years but was removed in 1997 amid rumours he was a paedophile and transferred to Santiago, then Rome, then Colombia and finally Germany.
The Schoenstatt movement, a worldwide lay community within the Catholic Church, is reported to have paid for his transfers as well as ''treatment''. He was finally removed for ''inappropriate conduct'' in 2002.
so........ if a person who is a member of the church (just a person who goes to church) turns out gay, they will be cast out and excommunicated. BUT if that person is a priest, they get to stay?
Talk about double standards.
#80
Bowielee
so........ if a person who is a member of the church (just a person who goes to church) turns out gay, they will be cast out and excommunicated. BUT if that person is a priest, they get to stay?
Talk about double standards.[/QUOTE]
No, gay priests also get kicked out of the church. Pedophiles on the other hand, apparently get a free ride.
I can't stress enough how much pedophiles, even if they molest children of their own gender, are NOT GAY. They are deeply disturbed individuals for whom sex has nothing to do with the sexual act, but about the exertion of control over someone.
Bowielee
http://www.smh.com.au/world/child-abuse-is-a-gay-problem-says-vatican-20100414-se4y.html
The Vatican's Secretary of State - No. 2 to the Pope himself - has suggested the paedophilia crisis engulfing the Catholic Church is linked to homosexuality, not priests' celibacy. During a press conference in Chile, Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone also insisted that the church has never stymied investigation of priests accused of paedophilia.
''Many psychologists and psychiatrists have demonstrated that there is no relation between celibacy and paedophilia,'' the cardinal said. ''But many others have demonstrated, I have been told recently, that there is a relation between homosexuality and pedophilia. That is true. That is the problem.''
The cardinal's remarks have sparked a storm of controversy in Italy as well as Chile, where they were strongly criticised by politicians and medical experts, who accused the Secretary of State of ''vast generalisations''.
Senator Juan Antonio Coloma, president of the right-wing Independent Democratic Union, told the Chilean newspaper La Nacion that while he understood the claims were made in good faith, they were generalisations that could not be sustained.
Senator Patricio Walker of the Christian Democrats categorically disagreed with the comments. ''Paedophilia is a mental and sexual abnormality that affects both heterosexuals and homosexuals,'' he said.
''I would like to see what studies he is talking about because I would find it fairly surprising to see evidence for these claims.''
Cardinal Bertone's comments follow a series of claims from senior Vatican and Catholic officials over the past few weeks that the charges of clerical abuse and their cover-up by the church that have emerged in Europe, the US, Ireland and Australia are a product of media gossip and exaggeration.
Rolando Jimenez, president of the Movement for Homosexual Integration and Liberation in Chile, said no reputable study exists to support Monsignor Bertone's comments.
In Italy, Aurelio Mancuso, former president of the gay rights association, Arcigay, said: ''The truth is that Bertone is clumsily trying to shift attention to homosexuality and away from the focus on new crimes against children that emerge every day.''
The Pope's press secretary, Federico Lombardi, said the pontiff might consider a private meeting with victims of clerical sexual abuse in Malta during a visit there next weekend. But he said the Pope should not be pressured by the media and should be given the space to listen to and communicate with the victims.
Newspapers in Chile reported that the most prominent paedophiles uncovered in the Chilean church attacked young girls and made a teenager pregnant.
The archbishop of Santiago at the time was shown to have received multiple complaints about Father Jose Andres Aguirre from the families of the young girls. But the priest was allowed to continue serving at several Catholic girls' schools. The church later moved Aguirre out of Chile twice and he was finally sentenced to 12 years in prison for abusing 10 teenage girls.
In La Nacion, one of the young women, identified only as Paula, said she had been abused between the ages of 16 and 20. She said when she told other priests at confession, they simply told her to pray but ''everyone looked the other way. No one corrected or helped me''.
The Associated Press reported that she said one of the priests she confessed to about her sex with Aguirre was Francisco Jose Cox, who had been bishop in La Serena, in northern Chile, for several years but was removed in 1997 amid rumours he was a paedophile and transferred to Santiago, then Rome, then Colombia and finally Germany.
The Schoenstatt movement, a worldwide lay community within the Catholic Church, is reported to have paid for his transfers as well as ''treatment''. He was finally removed for ''inappropriate conduct'' in 2002.
so........ if a person who is a member of the church (just a person who goes to church) turns out gay, they will be cast out and excommunicated. BUT if that person is a priest, they get to stay?
Talk about double standards.[/QUOTE]
No, gay priests also get kicked out of the church. Pedophiles on the other hand, apparently get a free ride.
I can't stress enough how much pedophiles, even if they molest children of their own gender, are NOT GAY. They are deeply disturbed individuals for whom sex has nothing to do with the sexual act, but about the exertion of control over someone.
#81
Dave
Dave
The Bowielee is wise.
#82
General Specific
General Specific
And again, Chris Titus sums up everything.
http://comedians.jokes.com/christopher-titus/videos/christopher-titus---pedophilic-priests
http://comedians.jokes.com/christopher-titus/videos/christopher-titus---pedophilic-priests
#83
@Li3n
@Li3n
Me, i have this crazy idea that the crisis is linked to them hiding the problem and protecting these people instead of doing the right thing...
So they're women?!They are deeply disturbed individuals for whom sex has nothing to do with the sexual act, but about the exertion of control over someone.
#84
Dave
Dave
More catholic fun.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/04/19/mexico.abortion/index.html?hpt=T2
10 year old girl is raped by her step-father in Mexico. She's now pregnant. Some want her to get an abortion because obviously a 10 year old won't be able to give live birth. Guess who is against this? Catholics and the religious.
Who gives a fuck about the live little girl who had been brutally raped and scarred for life, we have to protect the fucking zygote.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/04/19/mexico.abortion/index.html?hpt=T2
10 year old girl is raped by her step-father in Mexico. She's now pregnant. Some want her to get an abortion because obviously a 10 year old won't be able to give live birth. Guess who is against this? Catholics and the religious.
Who gives a fuck about the live little girl who had been brutally raped and scarred for life, we have to protect the fucking zygote.
#85
Chibibar
I just see it as double standards in my book.
Chibibar
I can see the difference, but unless you happen to be a mind reader, you can't tell if a priest is gay AND love to have sex with ONLY young boys. They get a free ride too.No, gay priests also get kicked out of the church. Pedophiles on the other hand, apparently get a free ride.
I can't stress enough how much pedophiles, even if they molest children of their own gender, are NOT GAY. They are deeply disturbed individuals for whom sex has nothing to do with the sexual act, but about the exertion of control over someone.
I just see it as double standards in my book.