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Reddit: more racist than Stormfront
#1
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
http://gawker.com/how-reddit-became-a-worse-black-hole-of-violent-racism-1690505395
TW: every slur possible, lots of violence
yet another brick in the "I never go to Reddit for anything ever" wall I have built here
TW: every slur possible, lots of violence
yet another brick in the "I never go to Reddit for anything ever" wall I have built here
Racist websites and organizations do sometimes benefit from racist subreddits like the Chimpire. That's because subreddit users often post links to other racist sites, and those links drive traffic to those other sites, which in turn typically sell merchandise in addition to pushing racist ideology and recruiting.
#2
HCGLNS
HCGLNS
You are perhaps the most hate filled individual I have had the misfortune to associate with.
But you amuse me, so I think I'll keep you.
But you amuse me, so I think I'll keep you.
#3
fade
fade
I think some of the comments summed it up nicely: the subscriberships on the subreddits mentioned in the article are very small, which feels very clickbait-y.
#4
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
Just a general question, would y'all keep posting on Halforums if we had a subforum called "The Chimpire" ?[DOUBLEPOST=1426020890,1426020796][/DOUBLEPOST]
I dunno if you scrolled past the text of the article to the comments or not, but I'll help outI think some of the comments summed it up nicely: the subscriberships on the subreddits mentioned in the article are very small, which feels very clickbait-y.
Within a year, the Chimpire network had grown to include 46 active subreddits spanning an alarming range of racist topics, including "Teenapers," "ApeWrangling," "Detoilet," and "Chicongo," along with subreddits for both "TrayvonMartin" and "ferguson," each of them dealing with the controversial and highly publicized shooting deaths of unarmed black teenagers.
Then, last November, Reddit's most racist community evolved once again, adding the subreddit called CoonTown in the aftermath of a dispute between several top moderators at GreatApes. In just four days, CoonTown had reached 1,000 subscribers. And its popularity continues to grow.
According to Reddit Metrics, as of Jan. 6, there were 552,829 subreddits. CoonTown, with its 3,287 subscribers, ranked 6,279th, placing it in the top 2% of subreddits. It is the 680th fastest-growing subreddit on the site despite — or because of — violently racist material including a large number of threads dedicated to videos of black-on-black violence.
#5
HCGLNS
HCGLNS
So by your own data 0.1% of Redditors are racist.
You need to find yourself a girl mate.
Or a windmill.
You need to find yourself a girl mate.
Or a windmill.
#6
Ravenpoe
Similarly, I live in a country that allows the KKK to exist. Does that means the USA endorses them? No (though I wouldn't be surprised if some congressmen where members.)
Ravenpoe
If this was a place like Reddit where users created the boards, then yes, because while I wouldn't post there and wouldn't like the content, I believe in freedom of speech, even terrible speech.Just a general question, would y'all keep posting on Halforums if we had a subforum called "The Chimpire" ?
Similarly, I live in a country that allows the KKK to exist. Does that means the USA endorses them? No (though I wouldn't be surprised if some congressmen where members.)
#7
fade
fade
No I saw that. Those percentage numbers as presented don't mean much. Top 2% of a cloud of subreddits with single digit subcribers. The actual subscriber population--3287--is minuscule by popular subreddit standards.
http://redditlist.com/
The top subreddits have hundreds to thousands of times as many subscribers by comparison.
http://redditlist.com/
The top subreddits have hundreds to thousands of times as many subscribers by comparison.
#8
tegid
tegid
I don't think you get how reddit works. It's not a forum, it's a platform where something like forums can be created. I mean, I know of political parties that have a subreddit and use it as their main means of discussion and as a significant part of their decision making. Obviously reddit does not endorse, not even care, about their political ideas!Just a general question, would y'all keep posting on Halforums if we had a subforum called "The Chimpire" ?
#9
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
several of you are confusing "reddit" with the "United States of America"
#10
Tinwhistler
Tinwhistler
Would you? Because I'm tempted to try to get one started if it means you'll leaveJust a general question, would y'all keep posting on Halforums if we had a subforum called "The Chimpire" ?
#11
Bowielee
Bowielee
Honestly, if there was a thread like that on this board that received support, I would seriously consider leaving the community. It wouldn't be an issue of free speech. it would be an issue of taking by business somewhere that doesn't support racism.
But, I think communally, something like that on these boards would get shut down by the community.
Also, it's against our very own TOS.
But, I think communally, something like that on these boards would get shut down by the community.
Also, it's against our very own TOS.
#12
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
go for it, champWould you? Because I'm tempted to try to get one started if it means you'll leave
#13
Ravenpoe
Ravenpoe
We are a single community, though. Reddit is a space for thousands of communities. And some of them are racist.Honestly, if there was a thread like that on this board that received support, I would seriously consider leaving the community. It wouldn't be an issue of free speech. it would be an issue of taking by business somewhere that doesn't support racism.
But, I think communally, something like that on these boards would get shut down by the community.
Also, it's against our very own TOS.
#15
SpecialKO
SpecialKO
That is a click-bait-y headline, even for Gawker.
It's like someone at Gawker decided "Condé Nast turns blind eye to racists Reddit users" was too proportionally accurate.
It's like someone at Gawker decided "Condé Nast turns blind eye to racists Reddit users" was too proportionally accurate.
#16
Dave
Dave
Would we ever have anything like that? No. No we would not. Would we tolerate people talking like that? No. No we would not.
But here's the thing - we're not Reddit. We have more of a narrow focus than 4chan or Reddit, even if we do wander afar at times. And yes, Reddit has some absolute shit, but it also has some great stuff. But let's take it a step farther. Should we censor the web because there are hate sites out there? Should we start to impinge on the free speech of others just because we don't like it? Should we shut down the Westboro Baptist Church because we don't like their message of intolerance? Of course not. And even if we should start shutting down things like that, who decides what is intolerable or not? What if the person in charge was a militant Black Panther supporter and decided to make the web ethnic? Or christian and decided that everyone had to adhere to one religious rule, much like some radical muslim governments?
Free speech isn't about being able to say what's popular or politically correct, it's also about being able to say any damned fool thing that your hate-filled brain can think of, as long as it doesn't specifically impinge on the rights of others or cause a DEFINABLE danger - not the ones in the "patriarchy" or "old white man" horror stories that SJWs love to throw around. Is there real racism, sexism, and terribleness? Hell to the yeah there is. But I will defend to the death your ability to talk like that as long as you are aware that your statements might have consequences. Take the recent songs at Oklahoma State University. Those people absolutely had the right to sing that stupid-ass song and be as racist as they pleased. But the university also had the right to expel them.
If you refuse to go to Reddit because a minuscule portion of the subreddits - which you can block, by the way - offend you, then you should never get on the internet again because, brother, there's a lot worse stuff out there.
But here's the thing - we're not Reddit. We have more of a narrow focus than 4chan or Reddit, even if we do wander afar at times. And yes, Reddit has some absolute shit, but it also has some great stuff. But let's take it a step farther. Should we censor the web because there are hate sites out there? Should we start to impinge on the free speech of others just because we don't like it? Should we shut down the Westboro Baptist Church because we don't like their message of intolerance? Of course not. And even if we should start shutting down things like that, who decides what is intolerable or not? What if the person in charge was a militant Black Panther supporter and decided to make the web ethnic? Or christian and decided that everyone had to adhere to one religious rule, much like some radical muslim governments?
Free speech isn't about being able to say what's popular or politically correct, it's also about being able to say any damned fool thing that your hate-filled brain can think of, as long as it doesn't specifically impinge on the rights of others or cause a DEFINABLE danger - not the ones in the "patriarchy" or "old white man" horror stories that SJWs love to throw around. Is there real racism, sexism, and terribleness? Hell to the yeah there is. But I will defend to the death your ability to talk like that as long as you are aware that your statements might have consequences. Take the recent songs at Oklahoma State University. Those people absolutely had the right to sing that stupid-ass song and be as racist as they pleased. But the university also had the right to expel them.
If you refuse to go to Reddit because a minuscule portion of the subreddits - which you can block, by the way - offend you, then you should never get on the internet again because, brother, there's a lot worse stuff out there.
#17
Jay
Jay
#18
Dave
Dave
To me Reddit is like Pandora. When you first start it's filled with music you'd never want to listen to ever, ever, ever. So you block those songs. As you use it more and more, the songs (topics, subs) start to align more and more to your tastes. (Especially if you use RES.) Pretty soon Reddit looks like an aggregate site that you might just enjoy. If all you want to see is porn and funny cat pictures, then by gum that's what you'll get. If you want news then you can go to /r/news, /r/worldnews, etc.
Like anything else, Reddit is what you make it to be.
Like anything else, Reddit is what you make it to be.
#19
Jay
Jay
Pretty much what Dave says.
Create an account, UN-subscribe to shit you hate, subscribe to other stuff you like, get RES.... enjoy content.
Ignore certain posters without issue!
Create an account, UN-subscribe to shit you hate, subscribe to other stuff you like, get RES.... enjoy content.
Ignore certain posters without issue!
#20
PatrThom
--Patrick
PatrThom
FTFYYou are perhaps the mosthateguilt filled individual I have had the misfortune to associate with.
--Patrick
#22
GasBandit
GasBandit
#23
PatrThom
--Patrick
PatrThom
I just figure it all originates with self-hate and then leaks out and gets on everything else.No you didn't.
--Patrick
#24
Officer_Charon
Officer_Charon
Eeeew....
Almost missed this one.... was busy surfing /r/ProtectAndServe
Almost missed this one.... was busy surfing /r/ProtectAndServe
#25
HCGLNS
HCGLNS
You need to head over to /r/MapPorn for all your map pornography needs. current top post should keep you quite busy @Officer_Charon quite busy indeed.
#26
Simfers
Simfers
Map pornography? So, like... Do they show the meridians and everything? Do they need certain latitudes and longitudes to be legal? Would globes be considered their BBWs?
I'm a bit confused here.
I'm a bit confused here.
#27
HCGLNS
HCGLNS
Don't be scared! You're over 18 right?Map pornography? So, like... Do they show the meridians and everything? Do they need certain latitudes and longitudes to be legal? Would globes be considered their BBWs?
I'm a bit confused here.
#28
Simfers
Simfers
Man, look at the relief on those beauties!
#29
Zappit
Zappit
Here's why Reddit attracted the most vicious racists: it's an open forum. Any open forum on the Internet will attract the following without fail:
Partisan Politics: The words "libtard" and "Repugnicans" have lost all bite and meaning, as they constitute 20% of words in those posts. These arguments can start over anything, such as the sharing of birthday photos. Also, it's Obama's fault, because no other politician every fucked anything up ever ever ever. (Except Bush) One side also has a tendency to point out that our melting pot is a Christian nation, with Christian founders, so Christian Jesus Repent Traditional Marriage Prayer in School Lazy Millennials Call it Christmas Because That's What it is Damnit.
Racists: They just need to explain why all other races are inferior and are their own worst enemy, and that whites are the only really oppressed people. Now why do so many folks have a problem with that?
Spambots: You made how much money working from home?
Trolls: Let's threaten some women, call people names, and try to push people to suicide. Lols.
You give people anonymity, you invite the worst in them to come out. But there's a way to avoid it. There's a way to deny those loonies power and an audience.
You can ignore them.
Partisan Politics: The words "libtard" and "Repugnicans" have lost all bite and meaning, as they constitute 20% of words in those posts. These arguments can start over anything, such as the sharing of birthday photos. Also, it's Obama's fault, because no other politician every fucked anything up ever ever ever. (Except Bush) One side also has a tendency to point out that our melting pot is a Christian nation, with Christian founders, so Christian Jesus Repent Traditional Marriage Prayer in School Lazy Millennials Call it Christmas Because That's What it is Damnit.
Racists: They just need to explain why all other races are inferior and are their own worst enemy, and that whites are the only really oppressed people. Now why do so many folks have a problem with that?
Spambots: You made how much money working from home?
Trolls: Let's threaten some women, call people names, and try to push people to suicide. Lols.
You give people anonymity, you invite the worst in them to come out. But there's a way to avoid it. There's a way to deny those loonies power and an audience.
You can ignore them.
#30
DarkAudit
(TIL Kanawha County, WV has one of the highest concentrations of meth labs in the entire US)
DarkAudit
I clicked, and I wish I hadn't. Found another reason for Charleston to kiss my ass.
(TIL Kanawha County, WV has one of the highest concentrations of meth labs in the entire US)
#31
blotsfan
blotsfan
I read that article, and I don't even think the "Chimpire" is the big problem with Reddit racism. There are always hugely bigoted jerks, and a lot of those subs are for shock value. If you go to a lot of the default subreddits though, there are massive amounts of racism and sexism all over the place in areas that really shouldn't be expected to have it. For the most part, I try to stick to Reddit for the sports areas, as those tend to be very well moderated and have good communities.
Edit: For more detail, a big area that has soured on me a lot is "Tumblr In Action." I used to go on it a lot and read all of posts from the lunatics on Social Issues. Over time though, I've noticed its gotten a lot less "make fun of people that make ridiculous statements" and a lot more "make fun of people that aren't MRAs." For that matter, the term SJW being used as an insult for basically anyone who supports any kind of tempering of offensive language rather than people who say things like "being straight makes you a worse person than being gay" has really encouraged dismissal of opposing ideas.
Edit: For more detail, a big area that has soured on me a lot is "Tumblr In Action." I used to go on it a lot and read all of posts from the lunatics on Social Issues. Over time though, I've noticed its gotten a lot less "make fun of people that make ridiculous statements" and a lot more "make fun of people that aren't MRAs." For that matter, the term SJW being used as an insult for basically anyone who supports any kind of tempering of offensive language rather than people who say things like "being straight makes you a worse person than being gay" has really encouraged dismissal of opposing ideas.
#32
PatrThom
PatrThom
I wonder if MapPorn shouldn't be folded into DataIsBeautiful.
--Patrick
--Patrick
#33
Bowielee
Bowielee
I don't think I've ever been to reddit in my life.
#34
GasBandit
GasBandit
I used to spend a fair amount of time on the Space Engineers subreddit. But I really don't like reddit's layout.
#35
Bowielee
Bowielee
Also, for the record, I fully support the first amendment knowing full well that I will HATE what that allows others to say. But that's the double edged sword of freedom. For me to be free to do what I want, assholes also have to be free to do what they want.
I think the Westboro Baptist Church are a bunch of lunatic asshats who have no regard for anyone outside of their incestuous family, but I would defend their right to spew their hate speech just as much as I would defend the local GLBTQA group's right to march for marriage equality.
I think the Westboro Baptist Church are a bunch of lunatic asshats who have no regard for anyone outside of their incestuous family, but I would defend their right to spew their hate speech just as much as I would defend the local GLBTQA group's right to march for marriage equality.
#36
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
reddit is not the american government
#38
Bubble181
Bubble181
...So? It's an American website. Are you saying people should be forced to limit free speech on their own sites to things they agree with?reddit is not the american government
#39
Vrii
Vrii
No, they should be forced to limit it to things that Charlie agrees with. Obviously....So? It's an American website. Are you saying people should be forced to limit free speech on their own sites to things they agree with?
#40
WasabiPoptart
WasabiPoptart
I believe Charles might be going through a difficult time right now.
#41
bhamv3
bhamv3
I have a Reddit account specifically for porn subreddits. To me, Reddit is the greatest porn site ever invented.
Also, I'm pretty sure the porn subreddits significantly outnumber the racist subreddits, both in terms of number of subreddits and number of visitors/subscribers. Why are we not characterizing Reddit as a huge porn site, rather than a racist site?
Also, I'm pretty sure the porn subreddits significantly outnumber the racist subreddits, both in terms of number of subreddits and number of visitors/subscribers. Why are we not characterizing Reddit as a huge porn site, rather than a racist site?
#42
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
Pornography is a grey area kind of to me? And a lot of people. It's not as clearly abhorrent as this stuff.I have a Reddit account specifically for porn subreddits. To me, Reddit is the greatest porn site ever invented.
Also, I'm pretty sure the porn subreddits significantly outnumber the racist subreddits, both in terms of number of subreddits and number of visitors/subscribers. Why are we not characterizing Reddit as a huge porn site, rather than a racist site?
#43
Bubble181
I know quite a few right wing nuts who'd agree vehemently that pornography is a vile and despicable thing, poisoning the minds of our youth, while a racist joke is just an innocent joke about some stereotypes. I'm not saying they're right - they aren't - but it's just as valid a point of view as yours. They have the right to express it. And be proven to be idiots over and over again, preferably. But they do have the right to believe so.
Bubble181
...TO YOU.It's not as clearly abhorrent as this stuff.
I know quite a few right wing nuts who'd agree vehemently that pornography is a vile and despicable thing, poisoning the minds of our youth, while a racist joke is just an innocent joke about some stereotypes. I'm not saying they're right - they aren't - but it's just as valid a point of view as yours. They have the right to express it. And be proven to be idiots over and over again, preferably. But they do have the right to believe so.
#44
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
I think you guys are drastically misunderstanding me and making shit up. I don't think Reddit should be forced by law to remove the racist subreddits, I'm just saying I'm going to think they're shitty until they do.
#45
Vrii
Vrii
But you make that so hard to do!I think you guys are drastically misunderstanding me
#46
HCGLNS
HCGLNS
We understand perfectly. You scream that the child is covered in dirt while ignoring that she has a smile on her face that could warm the world.Charlie Don't Surf, post: 1197865, member: 247"]I think you guys are drastically misunderstanding me and making shit up. I don't think Reddit should be forced by law to remove the racist subreddits, I'm just saying I'm going to think they're shitty until they do.
#47
DarkAudit
DarkAudit
You're a troll. What else is there to understand? You even admitted as such when you and Kissinger showed up. Your presence was predicated on ill intent, and has been ever since.
#48
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
this is the most boring piece of meaningless tripe I've ever read, and I mostly have lived in the south and drive by church billboards all the time[DOUBLEPOST=1426070151,1426070111][/DOUBLEPOST]We understand perfectly. You scream that the child is covered in dirt while ignoring that she has a smile on her face that could warm the world.
then stop talking to meYou're a troll. What else is there to understand? You even admitted as such when you and Kissinger showed up. Your presence was predicated on ill intent, and has been ever since.
#49
HCGLNS
HCGLNS
Ok if you eschew that particular vernacular,
You're a wonderful human being who sows nothing but dissent and couldn't see the beauty in the world to save his meaningless bitter worthless ignorant life.
Or your heart is three sizes too small.
Let's not bandy about personal attacks, please.
You're a wonderful human being who sows nothing but dissent and couldn't see the beauty in the world to save his meaningless bitter worthless ignorant life.
Or your heart is three sizes too small.
Let's not bandy about personal attacks, please.
#50
Bowielee
Bowielee
Did Charlie post something particularly egregious in another thread that I'm missing? People are being overly reactive to him in this thread. He has a completely legitimate point, and people ARE reading so much stuff into it that isn't there.
Again, again, again, I have to say, yes, Charlie should be called on his bullshit, but not imaginary bullshit that you're pulling out of the air.
also, I don't get HGLN's analogy... I don't care how smily that bitch is, clean your damn child
Again, again, again, I have to say, yes, Charlie should be called on his bullshit, but not imaginary bullshit that you're pulling out of the air.
also, I don't get HGLN's analogy... I don't care how smily that bitch is, clean your damn child
#51
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
I dunno, maybe my anti-capitalism stuff in the rant thread? people also just really really love redditDid Charlie post something particularly egregious in another thread that I'm missing?
#52
Jax
Maybe.
Jax
Maybe everybody is just fed up with him.. Or maybe it's the "I have just as much right to say anything I want, and everyone who does not agree is misunderstanding me and therefore their opinions are invalid. You guys don't understand what I'm trying to convey and are putting words in my mouth that I've never said", whilst he quotes everyone and everything out of context to prove his point.Did Charlie post something particularly egregious in another thread that I'm missing?
Maybe.
#53
Bowielee
Bowielee
Or, OR, people overreacting.
#54
GasBandit
GasBandit
#55
HCGLNS
HCGLNS
I am more upset that you misspelled my name than anything else in this thread.Or, OR, people overreacting.
#56
PatrThom
PatrThom
You know what's even more racist than reddit?
Reality.
--Patrick
Reality.
--Patrick
#57
phil
phil
I never knew about this group of subs until now, because of the advertising this thread gave it.
#58
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
That was partially the point of the threadI never knew about this group of subs until now, because of the advertising this thread gave it.
#59
Chad Sexington
Chad Sexington
You know, I went and visited reddit for the first time in a while. There are just so many better reasons to hate it than it hosts some racist communities. Everything on the default page is painfully bad on its own idiotic merits, why bother looking for trouble?
#60
PatrThom
PatrThom
It's not for everyone, that's for sure. Also, they don't claim to be, so at least they're honest.
--Patrick
--Patrick
#61
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
This isn't the only reason I'm not a fan of Reddit, it just seemed really egregious in this case
#62
HCGLNS
HCGLNS
I like that /r/hockey saved a guys life and he took the time to thank everyone yesterday
It was also kinda cool on Wednesday that /r/all managed to find a kidney donor for another member
It was also kinda cool on Wednesday that /r/all managed to find a kidney donor for another member
#63
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
Again, that stuff was done by the people of reddit, not those making decisions for the company, who this thread is aimed towards.
#64
Vrii
Vrii
Except that those subreddits were made by the people of reddit, not those making decisions for the company.
#65
figmentPez
figmentPez
If Halforums had such a subforum, I'm pretty sure it would be a working title for us making a Planet of the Apes knock-off. I imagine that if we put our collective talents together, we could make something at least on par with what The Asylum puts out.Just a general question, would y'all keep posting on Halforums if we had a subforum called "The Chimpire" ?
#66
HCGLNS
HCGLNS
Fair enough, your reply is both brief and nescient, I can accept that.Again, that stuff was done by the people of reddit, not those making decisions for the company, who this thread is aimed towards.
#67
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
They're doing nothing to take them off their siteExcept that those subreddits were made by the people of reddit, not those making decisions for the company.
#68
PatrThom
--Patrick
PatrThom
Sometimes an online community will put up with something that would otherwise be considered offensive, in the name of free speech and tolerance, and all that.They're doing nothing to take them off their site
--Patrick
#69
tegid
tegid
I get your point, but this is like not joining a, idk, feminist club, or improv group or whatever because they do their weekly meetings in a place is rented twice a year by some nazis. (The difference in meeting frequencies is there to represent how small a percentage of reddit are the racist subreddits)
#70
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
And sometimes I'll think that community is a spineless, evil sack of shit for tolerating that speech. Their site isn't bound by the constitution of the united states.Sometimes an online community will put up with something that would otherwise be considered offensive, in the name of free speech and tolerance, and all that.
--Patrick
#71
PatrThom
--Patrick
PatrThom
Sometimes an online community will put up with something that would otherwise be considered offensive, in the name of free speech and tolerance, and all that.
I'll let @Dave explain it to you, if he feels it necessary.And sometimes I'll think that community is a spineless, evil sack of shit for tolerating that speech. Their site isn't bound by the constitution of the united states.
--Patrick
#72
fade
fade
I don't understand references to the US Constitution. I don't think anyone here has made that claim. It's reddit's policy they're talking about, not the government's.
#73
PatrThom
PatrThom
You got that image from reddit, didn't you.
--Patrick
--Patrick
#74
figmentPez
That said, I think the more valid reason for Reddit allowing such reprehensible speech is that it's more effective to ignore it than to ban it. It exists, but it's a tiny little trickle of traffic, and in absence of it causing problems for other sub-Reddits, then why spend the effort shutting it down? It's not a trivial matter to have someone spend the time to change their Terms of Service to ban racism, but not infringe upon political speech. A poorly worded addition to the ToS will cause more problems than simply letting a few racist sub-Reddits exist.
I wonder if Charlie refuses to do any photocopying or printing at Kinkos, because they, undoubtably, allow hate speech groups to run off fliers at one of their multitude of locations?
figmentPez
I can actually see a reason for referencing the US Constitution, though it works against Charlie's position. Reddit is a site that wishes to house political speech. Not just in a "well, you can use this to discuss politics, if you want" but they've actively promoted the political side of Reddit by having AMAs with various politicians, including President Obama. If Reddit didn't respect the ideals of free political speech, they'd be a pretty poor forum.I don't understand references to the US Constitution. I don't think anyone here has made that claim. It's reddit's policy they're talking about, not the government's.
That said, I think the more valid reason for Reddit allowing such reprehensible speech is that it's more effective to ignore it than to ban it. It exists, but it's a tiny little trickle of traffic, and in absence of it causing problems for other sub-Reddits, then why spend the effort shutting it down? It's not a trivial matter to have someone spend the time to change their Terms of Service to ban racism, but not infringe upon political speech. A poorly worded addition to the ToS will cause more problems than simply letting a few racist sub-Reddits exist.
I wonder if Charlie refuses to do any photocopying or printing at Kinkos, because they, undoubtably, allow hate speech groups to run off fliers at one of their multitude of locations?
#75
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
because it advocates and organizes violence against other people? Someone elsewhere put it like thisthen why spend the effort shutting it down?
But when they have a platform that encourages groups to act on violent racism and share victim pics, or share non-consensual nude pics, revenge porn, "jailbait" masturbatory materials, stories of how they've raped people, etc, that's no longer "having shitty opinions," that's doing objectively awful things. When genuinely illegal shit is going down on your website and you turn a blind eye because, hey, if you didn't, your site would be a pale shadow of what it once was, you're tacitly complicit in all of it. Boo fucking hoo. If violent neo-nazis, pedophiles, and rapists have to scurry to some other shitty website, good.
#76
figmentPez
However, you bring up a valid point about how most major online sites have trouble taking down posts promoting illegal activity. Facebook, Youtube, Tumblr, Twitter, and more are all notoriously bad at getting content promoting violence taken down. But that's a systematic problem that stems more from practicality, manpower, legal precedent, and more, than it necessarily does from any attitude on the part of those site's administration. Most of these sites don't have the staff/infrastructure necessary to deal with the sheer volume of complaints, not in a fair and reasonable matter. They're already swamped with DMCA take-down notices that have the weight of multi-million dollar corporations behind them, and they can't handle those properly. Do you expect them to handle complaints from people who are offended by the political views of others, and be able to do so while sorting through the hyperbole of the scores of people who say "all those shitlords who hate feminism should be strung up by their testicles and roasted alive over burning piles of fedoras!"? Because lots of people say things that, if taken literally, are promoting violence, and it's not always easy to recognize who is being hyperbolic and who is actually making a threat.
You act like this is a simple issue that can be solved with a few mouse clicks, but it's actually a very complex issue, that if Reddit and other sites tried to solve with a quick and heavy hand, would only invite a shit-storm of retaliation.
figmentPez
Okay, that's a valid reason for getting specific posters/Redditors banned from the site, and any group that's purpose is to promote illegal activity, but that's a big difference from saying that they should be held accountable for shutting down all racist sub-Reddits.because it advocates and organizes violence against other people? Someone elsewhere put it like this
However, you bring up a valid point about how most major online sites have trouble taking down posts promoting illegal activity. Facebook, Youtube, Tumblr, Twitter, and more are all notoriously bad at getting content promoting violence taken down. But that's a systematic problem that stems more from practicality, manpower, legal precedent, and more, than it necessarily does from any attitude on the part of those site's administration. Most of these sites don't have the staff/infrastructure necessary to deal with the sheer volume of complaints, not in a fair and reasonable matter. They're already swamped with DMCA take-down notices that have the weight of multi-million dollar corporations behind them, and they can't handle those properly. Do you expect them to handle complaints from people who are offended by the political views of others, and be able to do so while sorting through the hyperbole of the scores of people who say "all those shitlords who hate feminism should be strung up by their testicles and roasted alive over burning piles of fedoras!"? Because lots of people say things that, if taken literally, are promoting violence, and it's not always easy to recognize who is being hyperbolic and who is actually making a threat.
You act like this is a simple issue that can be solved with a few mouse clicks, but it's actually a very complex issue, that if Reddit and other sites tried to solve with a quick and heavy hand, would only invite a shit-storm of retaliation.
#77
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
I think it's a big line between "black people can't swim" and "who has a really great picture of a dead black person?"
like, if there was a femynysm reddit detailing how to castrate a man using household items, well, I would hope it's immediately shut down too
like, if there was a femynysm reddit detailing how to castrate a man using household items, well, I would hope it's immediately shut down too
#78
drifter
drifter
The thing is, Reddit has shut down problematic subreddits before. Anyone familiar with Violentacrez? He oversaw a slew of borderline pedophilic subreddits (among other NSFW subjects) and got himself and his subreddits banned. Of course, the big reason they got shut down was because that shit hit mainstream media and all of a sudden major networks were breathing down Reddit's neck about harboring pedophiles. So it's not like Reddit is some bastion of free speech, it's that they'll look the other way as long as it doesn't cost them anything.
#79
PatrThom
--Patrick
PatrThom
You could say the same exact thing about Bittorrent, guns, drugs, and many other contemporarily controversial topics. It's the trend towards the abdication of personal responsibility. "I only ate those cookies because you left them out where I could get them." Reddit is a venue, and a venue is like a tool, in that it has no inherent morality about it. I can see those calling for reddit's closure/censure the same way that people would want to shut down a city park if a lot of murders/rapes were to happen there, but that would not be the park's fault.Okay, that's a valid reason for getting specific posters/Redditors banned from the site, and any group that's purpose is to promote illegal activity, but that's a big difference from saying that they should be held accountable for shutting down all racist sub-Reddits.
--Patrick
#80
figmentPez
Here's where the rubber meets the road. 1. Do you have any evidence that Reddit has been any more lax in enforcing it's terms of service in regards to racist groups, than it has with any other subject? 2. If not, do you have a concrete suggestion for what Reddit should do to change it's terms of service to make it so that racist groups are not abiding by the rules they have for all users?
figmentPez
That's all well and good, but it does nothing to address the practicality of the issue. Part of Reddit's Terms of Service is "do not incite harm". Do you have any evidence that any of these sub-reddits you hate exist explicitly to incite harm against individuals or groups? Because I'm betting that none of them exist explicitly for that purpose. Similarly, I bet you don't have any evidence of a user being reported for promoting harm, with Reddit doing nothing in response.I think it's a big line between "black people can't swim" and "who has a really great picture of a dead black person?"
like, if there was a femynysm reddit detailing how to castrate a man using household items, well, I would hope it's immediately shut down too
Here's where the rubber meets the road. 1. Do you have any evidence that Reddit has been any more lax in enforcing it's terms of service in regards to racist groups, than it has with any other subject? 2. If not, do you have a concrete suggestion for what Reddit should do to change it's terms of service to make it so that racist groups are not abiding by the rules they have for all users?
#82
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
i hope y'all know that was a joke strawman[ATTACHoihoihoihoihoih=full]17741[/ATTACH]
#83
Chad Sexington
There are problems with having a big open forum for discussion. It's probably impossible to have enough staff to moderate and detect and critically read every subreddit, or even a majority of them. This is one reason user reporting can be valuable, but even then I'm sure they get unmanageable volumes and every report can't be addressed with all the care we wish it could. But /r/redpill is a big subreddit, and fairly well-known -notorious, really. Their lack of action on something like that implies, to me, a lack of regard for their own rule, which exists more to give them something to point at when they choose to enforce it than to actually moderate all content. This is their prerogative, but I do not find your argument a compelling defense in its favour.
edit: apparently it's /r/theredpill, but you know what I mean.
Chad Sexington
This isn't about racism, but it fits in to the conversation that reddit doesn't always, even in a major case, follow its code. I think there is a strong argument that /r/redpill endorses and embraces rape. You're right: it's not explicit in the subreddit's rules and description, but it is implicit, which is more insidious and more dangerous. But the rule you cite isn't "do not incite harm explicitly," it stops one word short of that, and, by extension, subreddits with implicit ideas of that flavour ought to be shut down, but they aren't.That's all well and good, but it does nothing to address the practicality of the issue. Part of Reddit's Terms of Service is "do not incite harm". Do you have any evidence that any of these sub-reddits you hate exist explicitly to incite harm against individuals or groups? Because I'm betting that none of them exist explicitly for that purpose. Similarly, I bet you don't have any evidence of a user being reported for promoting harm, with Reddit doing nothing in response.
Here's where the rubber meets the road. 1. Do you have any evidence that Reddit has been any more lax in enforcing it's terms of service in regards to racist groups, than it has with any other subject? 2. If not, do you have a concrete suggestion for what Reddit should do to change it's terms of service to make it so that racist groups are not abiding by the rules they have for all users?
There are problems with having a big open forum for discussion. It's probably impossible to have enough staff to moderate and detect and critically read every subreddit, or even a majority of them. This is one reason user reporting can be valuable, but even then I'm sure they get unmanageable volumes and every report can't be addressed with all the care we wish it could. But /r/redpill is a big subreddit, and fairly well-known -notorious, really. Their lack of action on something like that implies, to me, a lack of regard for their own rule, which exists more to give them something to point at when they choose to enforce it than to actually moderate all content. This is their prerogative, but I do not find your argument a compelling defense in its favour.
edit: apparently it's /r/theredpill, but you know what I mean.
#84
figmentPez
And that's the big difference between your example, and what Charlie's article cites. /r/theredpill is one major subreddit, with over 100,000 subscribers. The ones mentioned in the article Charlie linked are at least an order of magnitude smaller, the first one mentioned "CoonTown" has 5,620 subscribers. /r/SneakerMarket, a sub-reddit specifically for selling sneakers, has more subscribers. There are 3,446 sub-reddits with more subscribers than "CoonTown", but only 328 with more subscribers than "theredpill".
This matters because if a small-ish racist reddit gets shut down, another one just gets created. As far as I know, anyone can create a reddit for any reason. Anyone can go down to Kinkos and print off pamphlets. But when something is as big as /r/theredpill, that's something else entirely. To me, Reddit not doing anything about a sub-reddit with 100,000 subscribers means something, but their ignoring reddits that don't even crack the top 1,000 doesn't say a whole lot. Show me that a printing company is running off pamphlets for the national convention of the KKK, and I'd say you've got an argument that Kinkos should be taking notice of what such a large customer is printing. But if they're printing the manifesto of some local nut job, then it's hard for me to think it reflects badly on them for not caring until they get enough complaints.
So, yeah, Reddit is kind of fucked up if what you say about /r/theredpill is true (I've only heard of it in passing. I know it has a reputation for promoting rape, but I don't know how pervasive that is.) However, letting people create awful sub-reddits seems to be just part of what inevitably will happen if you let people create sub-reddits freely.
figmentPez
I know very little about Reddit. I'm mostly just here to poke holes in Charlie's arguments because it's fun. I'm not trying to defend Reddit's inaction, just explaining that their business model doesn't exist to promote racism, any more than Kinko's does. Blaming Reddit for having awful sub-Reddits is like blaming Kinkos for allowing nut jobs to print their fliers there.This is their prerogative, but I do not find your argument a compelling defense in its favour.
And that's the big difference between your example, and what Charlie's article cites. /r/theredpill is one major subreddit, with over 100,000 subscribers. The ones mentioned in the article Charlie linked are at least an order of magnitude smaller, the first one mentioned "CoonTown" has 5,620 subscribers. /r/SneakerMarket, a sub-reddit specifically for selling sneakers, has more subscribers. There are 3,446 sub-reddits with more subscribers than "CoonTown", but only 328 with more subscribers than "theredpill".
This matters because if a small-ish racist reddit gets shut down, another one just gets created. As far as I know, anyone can create a reddit for any reason. Anyone can go down to Kinkos and print off pamphlets. But when something is as big as /r/theredpill, that's something else entirely. To me, Reddit not doing anything about a sub-reddit with 100,000 subscribers means something, but their ignoring reddits that don't even crack the top 1,000 doesn't say a whole lot. Show me that a printing company is running off pamphlets for the national convention of the KKK, and I'd say you've got an argument that Kinkos should be taking notice of what such a large customer is printing. But if they're printing the manifesto of some local nut job, then it's hard for me to think it reflects badly on them for not caring until they get enough complaints.
So, yeah, Reddit is kind of fucked up if what you say about /r/theredpill is true (I've only heard of it in passing. I know it has a reputation for promoting rape, but I don't know how pervasive that is.) However, letting people create awful sub-reddits seems to be just part of what inevitably will happen if you let people create sub-reddits freely.
#85
Chad Sexington
I guess to your question, though posed to Charlie, I wouldn't say they need to change their terms, but they need to consistently enforce them. There are roadblocks to this, that have been discussed. But I don't think the difference between my example of a large subreddit vs some small ones is a big one. If there were only some small subreddits that hadn't been addressed, then I'd agree that they may not have attracted enough attention from the staff behind the scenes. Instead, because there is a big subreddit full of repugnant ideas, I'm inclined to believe that they are part of the same disease of selective enforcement.
As to the Kinko's analogy, I'm undecided if I agree with it or not. My thoughts against it run like this: here we have Staples, which I'll assume is the same style. There, you can just go to the copier and print out your material without the staff ever knowing or seeing it. Hard for them to censor you. Maybe you can make the argument that staff should check materials, but I don't know - I'm uncomfortable with that, though it'd be within their rights. On reddit, of course, everyone can know about and see it. Reddit is more like the hall that the KKK rents out than the shop where they get their materials.
Chad Sexington
Well, granted, and I tried to address that when I said it was an impossible chore to moderate all subreddits with whatever staff. I was more addressing your statement that the subreddits don't necessarily explicitly promote violence, or that reddit being no more or less lax about its rules was a compelling reason to say reddit isn't responsible. I suppose more succinctly I think that the problem is reddit has rules not to be followed, but for them to enforce on a subjective whim (viz. You can get away with /r/jailbait, but once it becomes a problem, then they enforce the rule, rather than expecting it to be followed and enforcing it from the word go).However, letting people create awful sub-reddits seems to be just part of what inevitably will happen if you let people create sub-reddits freely.
I guess to your question, though posed to Charlie, I wouldn't say they need to change their terms, but they need to consistently enforce them. There are roadblocks to this, that have been discussed. But I don't think the difference between my example of a large subreddit vs some small ones is a big one. If there were only some small subreddits that hadn't been addressed, then I'd agree that they may not have attracted enough attention from the staff behind the scenes. Instead, because there is a big subreddit full of repugnant ideas, I'm inclined to believe that they are part of the same disease of selective enforcement.
As to the Kinko's analogy, I'm undecided if I agree with it or not. My thoughts against it run like this: here we have Staples, which I'll assume is the same style. There, you can just go to the copier and print out your material without the staff ever knowing or seeing it. Hard for them to censor you. Maybe you can make the argument that staff should check materials, but I don't know - I'm uncomfortable with that, though it'd be within their rights. On reddit, of course, everyone can know about and see it. Reddit is more like the hall that the KKK rents out than the shop where they get their materials.
#86
Reverent-one
Reverent-one
/r/jailbait was banned once it became clear that actual child pornography was being exchanged through it though, not because of violations they knew about but simply didn't care about. Prior to that it wasn't breaking any rules.Well, granted, and I tried to address that when I said it was an impossible chore to moderate all subreddits with whatever staff. I was more addressing your statement that the subreddits don't necessarily explicitly promote violence, or that reddit being no more or less lax about its rules was a compelling reason to say reddit isn't responsible. I suppose more succinctly I think that the problem is reddit has rules not to be followed, but for them to enforce on a subjective whim (viz. You can get away with /r/jailbait, but once it becomes a problem, then they enforce the rule, rather than expecting it to be followed and enforcing it from the word go).
#87
Chad Sexington
Chad Sexington
I was under the impression it was always being used to post pictures of under-eighteen year olds, just not nude ones, but for pornographic reasons. If that's wrong, then my example is bad, but I stand by the rest of my statements./r/jailbait was banned once it became clear that actual child pornography was being exchanged through it though, not because of violations they knew about but simply didn't care about. Prior to that it wasn't breaking any rules.
#88
Reverent-one
Reverent-one
You're mostly right. Since the pictures weren't nude, they weren't pornography and thus illegal, but after at least one thread in which a non-nude photo led to discussions of the existence of related nude photos and sharing going on, they shut it down entirely and added the new rule banning even sexually suggestive material about minors. To my understanding they were consistent in applying that rule, and any such previously existing minor-focused sexual subreddit is no more.I was under the impression it was always being used to post pictures of under-eighteen year olds, just not nude ones, but for pornographic reasons. If that's wrong, then my example is bad, but I stand by the rest of my statements.
#89
figmentPez
It'd be interesting if /r/theredpill put up disclaimers like /r/thinspo has. "We do not condone or advocate sexual assault, or other illegal sexual activity. If you know someone who has been the victim of sexual assault, contact RAINN." Because we all know that despite the disclaimers, a lot of thinspiration photos are used to fuel eating disorders, and may even be photos of people with eating disorders. Furthermore, a lot of eating disorders are very adept at hiding themselves as just healthy eating (there's a whole emerging category of Orthorexia Nervosa, people obsessive about eating right, and it's hard to tell the difference between that and people just following a fad diet, at least on the surface). And that's the thing, we know that eating disorders harm people, but does /r/thinspo existence rely so much on the promotion of eating disorders that Reddit should shut it down? How much policing are they responsible for, once they're aware that it's doing harm, despite it's disclaimers? If Reddit shuts down /r/thinspo, does it shut down /r/P90X and /r/fitness, too? Because some eating disorders revolve around excessive exercise. Where is the line? If the line isn't at explicitly promoting harm, then what level of implicit harm does there need to be before it's over the line, and how do you put that into a Terms of Service agreement?
figmentPez
My statement was meant to be descriptive, not prescriptive. I was making a statement about how Reddit, and indeed many other internet services, function, not saying that they should function that way. Most major services like that turn as much of a blind eye as possible to what goes on. Not just to negative stuff, but to positive and neutral stuff as well. They try to remain as neutral as possible, taking sides only when forced to because of legal concerns, or out of need to promote and expand their business. Ignoring racism by saying "we don't really pay attention to what is posted there, and the group description doesn't say anything about violence or harm, if you have a problem file a complaint" also allows them to do the same thing to /r/weed420bonghits and remain neutral on drug use/politics, religion, sexuality, etc. Granted, it's unlikely some government is going to go after Reddit for promoting illegal drug use if they ban racist forums, while allowing pot sub-reddits, but there's a long standing history of internet services trying to remain as neutral as possible. Reddit is just another in a long line. Not saying if it's right or wrong, or even if it's the only way to be, just that trying to spin Reddit as "violently racist" because of that means they're also "pro drug use, pro-anorexia (/r/thinspo has 32,000 subscribers!), pro-whatever someone can take to an extreme and harm themselves"I was more addressing your statement that the subreddits don't necessarily explicitly promote violence, or that reddit being no more or less lax about its rules was a compelling reason to say reddit isn't responsible.
It'd be interesting if /r/theredpill put up disclaimers like /r/thinspo has. "We do not condone or advocate sexual assault, or other illegal sexual activity. If you know someone who has been the victim of sexual assault, contact RAINN." Because we all know that despite the disclaimers, a lot of thinspiration photos are used to fuel eating disorders, and may even be photos of people with eating disorders. Furthermore, a lot of eating disorders are very adept at hiding themselves as just healthy eating (there's a whole emerging category of Orthorexia Nervosa, people obsessive about eating right, and it's hard to tell the difference between that and people just following a fad diet, at least on the surface). And that's the thing, we know that eating disorders harm people, but does /r/thinspo existence rely so much on the promotion of eating disorders that Reddit should shut it down? How much policing are they responsible for, once they're aware that it's doing harm, despite it's disclaimers? If Reddit shuts down /r/thinspo, does it shut down /r/P90X and /r/fitness, too? Because some eating disorders revolve around excessive exercise. Where is the line? If the line isn't at explicitly promoting harm, then what level of implicit harm does there need to be before it's over the line, and how do you put that into a Terms of Service agreement?
Kinkos has self service as well, but you can also put in online orders where employees may never read what you're printing. It comes out, they put in in a box, slap on a label, and wait for you to show up to claim it. They may never notice the difference between a playbill for a local theater company, and the manifesto of a guy about to bomb a government building. But that's the problem with trying to equate digital with physical, there is no absolute equality. Sure everyone could see any given Reddit, but most people aren't going to see, even those in charge of administration. Renting a hall generally requires specific permission. Starting a sub-reddit may not get noticed until it reaches a given size, if ever.As to the Kinko's analogy, I'm undecided if I agree with it or not. My thoughts against it run like this: here we have Staples, which I'll assume is the same style. There, you can just go to the copier and print out your material without the staff ever knowing or seeing it. Hard for them to censor you. Maybe you can make the argument that staff should check materials, but I don't know - I'm uncomfortable with that, though it'd be within their rights. On reddit, of course, everyone can know about and see it. Reddit is more like the hall that the KKK rents out than the shop where they get their materials.
#90
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
If you admittedly know nothing about reddit and are just posting to aggravate me, isn't that the definition of trolling? you could always just fuck off instead
#91
figmentPez
"Poking holes in your argument" and "aggravating you" may functionally be the same thing, but only if you're the type of small minded person who cannot stand to have his logic questioned. I'm not trying to aggravate you, I'm trying to examine the issue and challenge the conclusion you have set forth.
I don't consider myself to be trolling. I'm not disagreeing just because it's you, I'm disagreeing because I honestly think you have flawed reasoning (and I loathe the type of hyperbole you used in your thread title). I'm not posting just to ruffle feathers, I'm not playing "devil's advocate"; I'm just pointing out that the statements you've made about Reddit being racist don't have a logical basis.
I don't view the owners/operators of Reddit to be some sort of saints. There's a good possibility they're really shitty people (there are a lot of really shitty people out there, and a lot of them do well in business). However, that doesn't make them actively racist, at least not in the same way that white supremacy groups are actively racist. Passively allowing people to say horrible things on a website designed to allow people to make discussion groups based on nearly anything is far different than actively promoting a viewpoint.
figmentPez
"Very little" and "nothing" are not the same thing. You also know very little about Reddit. I don't see how my open ignorance and willingness to examine the issue is somehow more troublesome than your feigned omniscience and refusal to consider the viewpoints of others.If you admittedly know nothing about reddit and are just posting to aggravate me, isn't that the definition of trolling? you could always just fuck off instead
"Poking holes in your argument" and "aggravating you" may functionally be the same thing, but only if you're the type of small minded person who cannot stand to have his logic questioned. I'm not trying to aggravate you, I'm trying to examine the issue and challenge the conclusion you have set forth.
I don't consider myself to be trolling. I'm not disagreeing just because it's you, I'm disagreeing because I honestly think you have flawed reasoning (and I loathe the type of hyperbole you used in your thread title). I'm not posting just to ruffle feathers, I'm not playing "devil's advocate"; I'm just pointing out that the statements you've made about Reddit being racist don't have a logical basis.
I don't view the owners/operators of Reddit to be some sort of saints. There's a good possibility they're really shitty people (there are a lot of really shitty people out there, and a lot of them do well in business). However, that doesn't make them actively racist, at least not in the same way that white supremacy groups are actively racist. Passively allowing people to say horrible things on a website designed to allow people to make discussion groups based on nearly anything is far different than actively promoting a viewpoint.
#92
Jay
Jay
Let's be honest here, Charlies know very little of anything.
#93
PatrThom
--Patrick
PatrThom
That's not true. We know he knows a lot, he's just not in the habit of citing his sources.Let's be honest here, Charlies know very little of anything.
--Patrick
#94
blotsfan
blotsfan
Well, they banned a lot of the racist subreddits. There are still a lot more, but its something.
https://www.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/3fx2au/content_policy_update/
https://www.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/3fx2au/content_policy_update/
#95
Jay
Jay