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Regressive (and possibly racist) Comic Book Storytelling
#1
ThatNickGuy
ThatNickGuy
http://www.comicsalliance.com/2010/05/06/the-racial-politics-of-regressive-storytelling/
Really great article how regressive storytelling in comics - essentially shoe-horning older characters back for nostalgia purposes - is also somewhat racist. Gone are the black Firestorm and the Chinese Atom in favour of the white classics.
Thoughts?
Really great article how regressive storytelling in comics - essentially shoe-horning older characters back for nostalgia purposes - is also somewhat racist. Gone are the black Firestorm and the Chinese Atom in favour of the white classics.
Thoughts?
#2
sixpackshaker
sixpackshaker
That link no worky here.
#3
ThatNickGuy
ThatNickGuy
Just tried it. Works okay for me. Weird.
#4
Soliloquy
Soliloquy
Huh. Interesting. I never even thought about that before.
#5
R
Raemon777
R
Raemon777
Yup. This was not lost on me. What I don't understanding is, if you really MUST have old characters back for nostalgia purposes... can't you PLEASE just tell alternate history versions or re-imaginings or something, because, apart from the whole "gee, everyone's white now" thing, is the fact that the storylines required to keep the original characters relevant just get ridiculous.
#6
SpecialKO
SpecialKO
I pretty much agree entirely with the article in the OP. Like the author, I'm not saying that Geoff Johns or any of the others are racist, but the regressive/statsu quo approach of the Big Two (but particularly DC) has unquestionably contributed to the "whitewashing" of their continuity and the sidelining of an impressive number of characters of diverse backgrounds being shunted to the back row, and it's increasingly ridiculous.
#7
Green_Lantern
Green_Lantern
Very well written and conscious article, I understand the nostalgia influence on this (really, as cheesy it was, I loved that they brough Jade and Martian Manhunter back), but it is a unforunate implication that deserves some pondering. I wonder what would be the "best" solution in this case?
#8
SpecialKO
<----- still mad about how they crapped on Kyle Rayner to bring Hal Jordan back
SpecialKO
Keep comic characters dead/moved on, and allow the contribution of their successors to stand on their own?Very well written and conscious article, I understand the nostalgia influence on this (really, as cheesy it was, I loved that they brough Jade and Martian Manhunter back), but it is a unforunate implication that deserves some pondering. I wonder what would be the "best" solution in this case?
<----- still mad about how they crapped on Kyle Rayner to bring Hal Jordan back
#9
ThatNickGuy
ThatNickGuy
Well, the best solution, in my eyes, would be to have an actual timeline, where certain things happened at certain times. Kind of like a longer version of New Frontier, with a new class of heroes coming every couple of years as the older folk grow old, etc.
Of course, that would mean that Bruce Wayne could not be Batman forever (heh, Batman Forever; pun) and Dick Grayson would take over the mantle properly instead of just as a placement holder 'til Bruce is done currently being dead. The older ones would fill a role similar to the older folk in the JSA, as mentors for the younger. Some might die heroically, others pass away naturally, etc. But then you could have Kyle take over properly for Hal or something, Wally for Barry, etc. The Golden Age makes way for the Silver Age, etc. If you want to tell stories from that period, then tell stories from that period. It'd be like...well, if you've ever read Starman, it'd be like taking that generational story idea throughout the whole DCU.
Again, it'll never happen, though, because of the cyclical, never-aging nature of superhero comics. Don't worry. In another decade or so, we'll have a new bunch of editors who will get tired of bringing back the Silver Age and want to modern it up again. Then, someone else will miss the glory days and it all happens again.
Of course, that would mean that Bruce Wayne could not be Batman forever (heh, Batman Forever; pun) and Dick Grayson would take over the mantle properly instead of just as a placement holder 'til Bruce is done currently being dead. The older ones would fill a role similar to the older folk in the JSA, as mentors for the younger. Some might die heroically, others pass away naturally, etc. But then you could have Kyle take over properly for Hal or something, Wally for Barry, etc. The Golden Age makes way for the Silver Age, etc. If you want to tell stories from that period, then tell stories from that period. It'd be like...well, if you've ever read Starman, it'd be like taking that generational story idea throughout the whole DCU.
Again, it'll never happen, though, because of the cyclical, never-aging nature of superhero comics. Don't worry. In another decade or so, we'll have a new bunch of editors who will get tired of bringing back the Silver Age and want to modern it up again. Then, someone else will miss the glory days and it all happens again.
#10
Green_Lantern
Green_Lantern
You unknow, this could be actually interesting "remake" of the Series Generations, but as a ongoing story. =)Well, the best solution, in my eyes, would be to have an actual timeline, where certain things happened at certain times. Kind of like a longer version of New Frontier, with a new class of heroes coming every couple of years as the older folk grow old, etc.
Of course, that would mean that Bruce Wayne could not be Batman forever (heh, Batman Forever; pun) and Dick Grayson would take over the mantle properly instead of just as a placement holder 'til Bruce is done currently being dead. The older ones would fill a role similar to the older folk in the JSA, as mentors for the younger. Some might die heroically, others pass away naturally, etc. But then you could have Kyle take over properly for Hal or something, Wally for Barry, etc. The Golden Age makes way for the Silver Age, etc. If you want to tell stories from that period, then tell stories from that period. It'd be like...well, if you've ever read Starman, it'd be like taking that generational story idea throughout the whole DCU.
Again, it'll never happen, though, because of the cyclical, never-aging nature of superhero comics. Don't worry. In another decade or so, we'll have a new bunch of editors who will get tired of bringing back the Silver Age and want to modern it up again. Then, someone else will miss the glory days and it all happens again.
#11
sixpackshaker
sixpackshaker
Then again, how racist is it to take a long time white character and paint him black?
In comes TOKEN Black Green Lantern.
I cringed every time they did that to an established character.
Why not seek out minorities to write stories about new heroes if you want to change comics so much?
---------- Post added at 04:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:57 AM ----------
That article flat out lied about the Green Lantern/Green Arrow panel. The question was, Why are you always going around saving the Blue Skins and The Green Skins?....
In comes TOKEN Black Green Lantern.
I cringed every time they did that to an established character.
Why not seek out minorities to write stories about new heroes if you want to change comics so much?
---------- Post added at 04:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:57 AM ----------
That article flat out lied about the Green Lantern/Green Arrow panel. The question was, Why are you always going around saving the Blue Skins and The Green Skins?....
#12
Bowielee
Bowielee
One of the things I used to like about the DC universe is that, with the exception of the big 3 (Superman, Wonderwoman, Batman), they didn't seem afraid to have the legacies of the characters move on to a new generation. Wally West taking over the Flash Role, Connor Hawke taking over Green Arrow, Kyle Raynor taking over Green Lantern, etc...
I think the real reverting started with the return of Hal Jordan, and they've continued regressing their universe ever since.
To be honest, I WANT the characters to move on to the next generation. Dick Grayson should be Batman, Impulse should be the flash by now, Garth should be Aquaman, Donna Troi should be Wonder Woman, Connor Kent should be Superman, you see where I'm going.
It would be a far more engaging universe, and require far fewer "Crisis" to reboot the universe every few years, if they had kept up with the dynamic that they had started back when the silver age characters took over for their predecessors.
I missed many of these characters as much as the next guy, but let the new guys keep going.
I think the real reverting started with the return of Hal Jordan, and they've continued regressing their universe ever since.
To be honest, I WANT the characters to move on to the next generation. Dick Grayson should be Batman, Impulse should be the flash by now, Garth should be Aquaman, Donna Troi should be Wonder Woman, Connor Kent should be Superman, you see where I'm going.
It would be a far more engaging universe, and require far fewer "Crisis" to reboot the universe every few years, if they had kept up with the dynamic that they had started back when the silver age characters took over for their predecessors.
I missed many of these characters as much as the next guy, but let the new guys keep going.
#13
sixpackshaker
It is DC has OLDER legacy characters. Marvel's Legacy Characters are ONLY 50 years old, compared to DC's 75+.
---------- Post added at 04:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:03 AM ----------
And Legion of Super Heroes has always been the worst idea for a comic.
sixpackshaker
I nearly fell out of my chair laughing at that one.it's particularly prevalent in DC Comics because no other company so relies on legacy characters.
It is DC has OLDER legacy characters. Marvel's Legacy Characters are ONLY 50 years old, compared to DC's 75+.
---------- Post added at 04:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:03 AM ----------
And Legion of Super Heroes has always been the worst idea for a comic.
#14
ThatNickGuy
ThatNickGuy
Pfft. Worst idea for a comic? Is that including Archie Meets Punisher?
LoSH is one of the few superhero properties I've yet to really "get", but I do see the appeal of it...kind of. If done right, it's downright awesome. But the ones done right are few and far between.
LoSH is one of the few superhero properties I've yet to really "get", but I do see the appeal of it...kind of. If done right, it's downright awesome. But the ones done right are few and far between.
#15
Green_Lantern
Green_Lantern
Blasphemy!And Legion of Super Heroes has always been the worst idea for a comic.
#16
sixpackshaker
sixpackshaker
Every incarnation of it that I've seen was terrible.
#17
Bowielee
Bowielee
I don't think you understand the word legacy in the context in which the author is using it. He's saying that, unlike Marvel, the main characters have a legacy that get's passed on from one generation of heroes to the next, as I pointed out in my post. It's been a part of the tradition at DC since Barry Allen replaced Jay Garrick and Hal Jordan replaced Alan Scott.I nearly fell out of my chair laughing at that one.it's particularly prevalent in DC Comics because no other company so relies on legacy characters.
It is DC has OLDER legacy characters. Marvel's Legacy Characters are ONLY 50 years old, compared to DC's 75+.
---------- Post added at 04:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:03 AM ----------
And Legion of Super Heroes has always been the worst idea for a comic.
#18
SpecialKO
You could even add the Ultimate continuity into the mix, despite its exploitation of the big legacy characters, because they used it to completely restart their storylines with different directions, events, and characters without having to actually rely on 616 to provide anything more than the initial direction. The last time DC tried that was the Silver Age, and they basically gave up on it when they had the first Crisis.
SpecialKO
I agree that the statement is a little odd, but it's not quite as simple as you make it out to be either. A large part of marketed Marvel catalogue over the past few years was from comics like Deadpool, Runaways, and the Initiative. Now, Deadpool is 20 years old, and the Initiative began as an Avengers tie-in with lots of cameos on top of their original characters, but Marvel (compared to DC, obviously) is far more willing to play with their continuity and characters than DC, which is fairly obviously what the author was trying to convey.I nearly fell out of my chair laughing at that one.it's particularly prevalent in DC Comics because no other company so relies on legacy characters.
It is DC has OLDER legacy characters. Marvel's Legacy Characters are ONLY 50 years old, compared to DC's 75+.
You could even add the Ultimate continuity into the mix, despite its exploitation of the big legacy characters, because they used it to completely restart their storylines with different directions, events, and characters without having to actually rely on 616 to provide anything more than the initial direction. The last time DC tried that was the Silver Age, and they basically gave up on it when they had the first Crisis.
#19
sixpackshaker
sixpackshaker
Yeah Bowie, The laughter had me skipping the rest of the paragraph.
#20
Steven Soderburgin
Steven Soderburgin
I don't know what you guys are talking about. Old comics weren't raci-
#21
GasBandit
GasBandit
ME TOO! I WANNA HOLLER THE LOUD FUNNY WORDS!
#22
Soliloquy
Soliloquy
How about progressive sentiment mixed with racist caricature?
Go Go Will Eisner!
Go Go Will Eisner!
#23
AshburnerX
AshburnerX
Speaking of Runaways, does anyone know what the hell happened to the comic? I haven't seen a new issue in close to 6 months and it was in the middle of a storyline at the time.A large part of marketed Marvel catalogue over the past few years was from comics like Deadpool, Runaways, and the Initiative. Now, Deadpool is 20 years old, and the Initiative began as an Avengers tie-in with lots of cameos on top of their original characters, but Marvel (compared to DC, obviously) is far more willing to play with their continuity and characters than DC, which is fairly obviously what the author was trying to convey.
#24
V.Bond
That's why the last few arcs, in my opinion, were kind of a mess.
V.Bond
It's supposedly being retooled. It was originally only going to be a short run, but then it got popular.Speaking of Runaways, does anyone know what the hell happened to the comic? I haven't seen a new issue in close to 6 months and it was in the middle of a storyline at the time.
That's why the last few arcs, in my opinion, were kind of a mess.
#25
AshburnerX
That's why the last few arcs, in my opinion, were kind of a mess.[/QUOTE]
That's what happens when you switch artists and writers every 5 issues.
AshburnerX
It's supposedly being retooled. It was originally only going to be a short run, but then it got popular.Speaking of Runaways, does anyone know what the hell happened to the comic? I haven't seen a new issue in close to 6 months and it was in the middle of a storyline at the time.
That's why the last few arcs, in my opinion, were kind of a mess.[/QUOTE]
That's what happens when you switch artists and writers every 5 issues.
#26
@Li3n
Jaime Reyes (new Blue Beetle) is a pretty great character, but he gains almost nothing from being a legacy character for BB...
And isn't Firestorm now made of the old guy and the new black kid?!
@Li3n
As opposed to making former white character black/asia so you don't have to bother with coming up with new minority characters that work?!\"http://www.comicsalliance.com/2010/05/06/the-racial-politics-of-regressive-storytelling/\"
Really great article how regressive storytelling in comics - essentially shoe-horning older characters back for nostalgia purposes - is also somewhat racist. Gone are the black Firestorm and the Chinese Atom in favour of the white classics.
Jaime Reyes (new Blue Beetle) is a pretty great character, but he gains almost nothing from being a legacy character for BB...
And isn't Firestorm now made of the old guy and the new black kid?!
#27
V.Bond
V.Bond
I miss Cassandra Cain, at maybe one of the most exciting times of the Batman legacy, they just completely write this character out of all the ongoing Batman titles.
So lame.
So lame.
#28
R
Raemon777
R
Raemon777
That assumes that the choice is between "new black character" and "black version of existing character." When in fact, I bet it's more along the lines of "new white version of an existing white character," vs "new ethnic version of existing white character." They were going to remake the older character anyway. I realize making them token ethnic versions of pre-established white people is racist, but it's even more racist to leave everyone white. The real issue is that they didn't make new, genuinely interesting non-white characters, but that had nothing to do with the decision to make new versions of old characters.As opposed to making former white character black/asia so you don't have to bother with coming up with new minority characters that work?!
#29
@Li3n
@Li3n
Nah, that's included in my statement, they want ethnic diversity but not to actually work for it, which is why it usually comes down to "new white version of an existing white character," vs "new ethnic version of existing white character."That assumes that the choice is between "new black character" and "black version of existing character." When in fact, I bet it's more along the lines of "new white version of an existing white character," vs "new ethnic version of existing white character."As opposed to making former white character black/asian so you don't have to bother with coming up with new minority characters that work?!
#30
R
Raemon777
R
Raemon777
I don't think it's that simple at all (although it's only slightly more complicated). Legacy characters sell better than random new characters. Making sequels and reimaginings and new version of old things that you already know people liked is a much safer business model than creating a whole new character.
#31
Green_Lantern
Green_Lantern
I realized another facet of this, usually, the former/original characters that are replaced by the ethinic legacy ones, are the less popular ones, essencially the company is trying to have ethnic characters, but not the majors ones, they can be on the bus, but in the back seats.
I hope I have articulated my thoughs.
I hope I have articulated my thoughs.
#32
Iaculus
Iaculus
Possible, but another explanation would be that it's only the less popular ones who need to be replaced to boost sales in the first place. With the more popular folks, they might as well stick to the winning formula.I realized another facet of this, usually, the former/original characters that are replaced by the ethinic legacy ones, are the less popular ones, essencially the company is trying to have ethnic characters, but not the majors ones, they can be on the bus, but in the back seats.
I hope I have articulated my thoughs.
#33
Covar
When I first saw this thread my thought was the guy who wrote the article was overreacting and then I read this weeks Titans: Villains for Hire one-shot.
I was PISSED. Completely pointless, and disrespectful to the character.
Covar
I agree, but with the way her character was completely butchered at DC (I blame Didio's fued with Chuck Dixon) it's probably best that we take a break from her. Also, if you are not reading the new Batgirl series I highly suggest it, it has been great so far.I miss Cassandra Cain, at maybe one of the most exciting times of the Batman legacy, they just completely write this character out of all the ongoing Batman titles.
So lame.
When I first saw this thread my thought was the guy who wrote the article was overreacting and then I read this weeks Titans: Villains for Hire one-shot.
DC Kills of Ryan Choi
I was PISSED. Completely pointless, and disrespectful to the character.
#34
Gryfter
Gryfter
Didio has ruined so much at DC, I really want him gone.I agree, but with the way her character was completely butchered at DC (I blame Didio's fued with Chuck Dixon) it's probably best that we take a break from her. Also, if you are not reading the new Batgirl series I highly suggest it, it has been great so far.
#35
Covar
Well he's no longer in a creative role so there's that.
Covar
Didio has ruined so much at DC, I really want him gone.[/QUOTE]I agree, but with the way her character was completely butchered at DC (I blame Didio's fued with Chuck Dixon) it's probably best that we take a break from her. Also, if you are not reading the new Batgirl series I highly suggest it, it has been great so far.
Well he's no longer in a creative role so there's that.
#36
SpecialKO
Well he's no longer in a creative role so there's that.[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately, as Executive Editor and Co-Publisher, he has huge amounts of creative control over the primary IP.
SpecialKO
Didio has ruined so much at DC, I really want him gone.[/QUOTE]I agree, but with the way her character was completely butchered at DC (I blame Didio's fued with Chuck Dixon) it's probably best that we take a break from her. Also, if you are not reading the new Batgirl series I highly suggest it, it has been great so far.
Well he's no longer in a creative role so there's that.[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately, as Executive Editor and Co-Publisher, he has huge amounts of creative control over the primary IP.
#37
Gryfter
Well he's no longer in a creative role so there's that.[/QUOTE]
Wow, it's really hard to look at Creative and Didio in the same sentence. One is the antithesis of the other.
That guy has done more damage during his stint at DC than even Quesada has done at Marvel.
---------- Post added at 12:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:33 AM ----------
Gryfter
Didio has ruined so much at DC, I really want him gone.[/QUOTE]I agree, but with the way her character was completely butchered at DC (I blame Didio's fued with Chuck Dixon) it's probably best that we take a break from her. Also, if you are not reading the new Batgirl series I highly suggest it, it has been great so far.
Well he's no longer in a creative role so there's that.[/QUOTE]
Wow, it's really hard to look at Creative and Didio in the same sentence. One is the antithesis of the other.
That guy has done more damage during his stint at DC than even Quesada has done at Marvel.
---------- Post added at 12:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:33 AM ----------
And this.Unfortunately, as Executive Editor and Co-Publisher, he has huge amounts of creative control over the primary IP.