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Scientists convicted of manslaughter for not giving advance warning of earthquake.

Oct 24, 2012#1

strawman

Better hide your geophysics degrees when traveling to Italy. Apparently you can now be convicted of manslaughter if you fail to give advance warning for earthquakes:

http://www.laboratoryequipment.com/news/2012/10/italian-scientists-get-6-years-earthquake-warning

An Italian court convicted seven scientists and experts of manslaughter for failing to adequately warn citizens before an earthquake struck central Italy in 2009, killing more than 300 people.

The court in L'Aquila also sentenced the defendants to six years in prison. Each one is a member of the national Great Risks Commission.

...

Scientists worldwide had decried the trial as ridiculous, contending that science has no reliable way of predicting earthquakes.

Among those convicted were some of Italy's most prominent and internationally respected seismologists and geological experts, including Enzo Boschi, former head of the national Institute of Geophysics and Volcanology.

...

The defendants were accused in the indictment of giving "inexact, incomplete and contradictory information" about whether small tremors felt by L'Aquila residents in the weeks and months before the April 6, 2009, quake should have constituted grounds for a quake warning.

The 6.3-magnitude quake killed 308 people in and around the medieval town and forced survivors to live in tent camps for months.

Many much smaller earth tremors had rattled the area in the months before the quake, causing frightened people to wonder if they should evacuate.

Oct 24, 2012#2

MindDetective

Here is a more nuanced view of the trial: http://rogerpielkejr.blogspot.com/2012/10/mischaracterizations-of-laquila-lawsuit.html

Yet as the trial unfolded here over the past year, a more complex picture has emerged. Prosecutors didn't charge commission members with failing to predict the earthquake but with conducting a hasty, superficial risk assessment and presenting incomplete, falsely reassuring findings to the public. They have argued in court that the many tremors that L'Aquila experienced in the preceding months did provide at least some clues about a heightened risk.

Meanwhile, a recorded telephone conversation made public halfway through the trial has suggested that the commission was convened with the explicit goal of reassuring the public and raised the question of whether the scientists were used—or allowed themselves to be used—to bring calm to a jittery town.

Oct 24, 2012#3

sixpackshaker

I was going to post this the other day...

seriously, what the hell?

Between this, the college kids getting convicted on zero evidence, and BUNGA BUNGA! how can anyone take the Italian gov't seriously again?

Oct 24, 2012#4

GasBandit

Bobbida boopy?!

Oct 24, 2012#5

sixpackshaker

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunga_bunga

Oct 24, 2012#6

GasBandit

sixpackshaker said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunga_bunga

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boong-Ga_Boong-Ga

Oct 24, 2012#7

Azurephoenix

This is total bullshit plain and simple.

Oct 24, 2012#8

sixpackshaker

I can't see how that did not go over well here...

Oct 24, 2012#9

North_Ranger

I think this is just Silvio Berlusconi working behind the scenes, trying to get everyone smart enough not to vote for him behind bars.

That or trying to give Italians something else to worry about than their crappy economics. Panem et circenses, folks...

Oct 24, 2012#10

MindDetective

*ahem*

Prosecutors didn't charge commission members with failing to predict the earthquake but with conducting a hasty, superficial risk assessment and presenting incomplete, falsely reassuring findings to the public.

Oct 24, 2012#11

GasBandit

MindDetective said:
*ahem*

Bibbida BABBADA bibbada boopy!

Oct 24, 2012#12

GasBandit

Aaand italian scientists are quitting in droves.

Oct 24, 2012#13

Hylian

Oct 24, 2012#14

strawman

MindDetective said:
*ahem*

They are convicting them of manslaughter. No matter how you dress it up in legalese they are essentially saying, "These people are dead and your actions led to their death."

The earthquake killed them.

But somehow you are stating that it's ok to blame the deaths on the scientists?

What could the scientists have possibly said beforehand that would make them not eligible for manslaughter?

It's silly to say that the deaths are due to public statements and hasty investigations into small shocks that no one could predict would lead to anything specific.

If the scientists had declared that a major earthquake was likely due in the next 3-500 days, and the city should be evacuated they would be ignored as well. If they said something to evacuate the city, and it didn't happen, then they would be charged with causing a public disturbance, similar to yelling fire in the crowded theater.

So I'm very interested in knowing exactly how they should be held accountable for deaths caused by an earthquake. Your statement doesn't explain this to me.

Oct 24, 2012#15

MindDetective

stienman said:
They are convicting them of manslaughter. No matter how you dress it up in legalese they are essentially saying, "These people are dead and your actions led to their death."

The earthquake killed them.

But somehow you are stating that it's ok to blame the deaths on the scientists?

What could the scientists have possibly said beforehand that would make them not eligible for manslaughter?

It's silly to say that the deaths are due to public statements and hasty investigations into small shocks that no one could predict would lead to anything specific.

If the scientists had declared that a major earthquake was likely due in the next 3-500 days, and the city should be evacuated they would be ignored as well. If they said something to evacuate the city, and it didn't happen, then they would be charged with causing a public disturbance, similar to yelling fire in the crowded theater.

So I'm very interested in knowing exactly how they should be held accountable for deaths caused by an earthquake. Your statement doesn't explain this to me.

Don't get me wrong. I think the ruling is ridiculous. It encourages broad speculations of danger around every turn. I just want to re-emphasize that this is more about the politics involved than the science that is involved. Was there a conspiracy to placate the public, putting them at risk? That is pretty ridiculous too, but it is a more accurate statement about the trial than what you are getting in the press.

Oct 24, 2012#16

sixpackshaker

Hylian said:

If OJ Simpson /facepalm's it... you know it must be bad.

Oct 24, 2012#17

Jay

As a Canadian with Italian origins... this is fucking madness.

Oct 24, 2012#18

Adam

Jay said:
As a Canadian with Italian origins... this is fucking madness.

Oct 24, 2012#19

Jay

Oct 24, 2012#20

bhamv3

Adam said:
View attachment 8626

Dammit, I wanted to post that.

Oct 26, 2012#21

SpecialKO

The last thing we need is scientists feeling like they have to constantly cover their asses when presenting results of studies.

Whatever the exact nature of these charges is, that's what's going to come out of it.

Oct 26, 2012#22

MindDetective

GasBandit said:
Aaand italian scientists are quitting in droves.

Droves??

Oct 26, 2012#23

strawman

Droves:

Oct 26, 2012#24

Ravenpoe

stienman said:
Droves:

Surely you jape.

Oct 26, 2012#25

Adam

Ravenpoe said:
Surely you jape.

Only if he does it consensually.

Oct 26, 2012#26

Silent Bob

GasBandit said:
Bibbida BABBADA bibbada boopy!

View attachment 8623

Holy shit, I just snorted out my orange juice. That was perfect!

Oct 27, 2012#27

David

Oct 27, 2012#28

strawman

Ravenpoe said:
Surely you jape.

It was a legitimate jape.

Oct 27, 2012#29

Bowielee

stienman said:
It was a legitimate jape.

Boo.

I know I funny'd the post, but I hate myself for it

Nov 11, 2014#30

evilmike

Manslaughter Conviction for Italian Earthquake Scientists Overturned

Six of seven convictions overturned. The seventh is still under appeal.

Nov 11, 2014#31

GasBandit

And it only took two years!

Nov 11, 2014#32

fade

Yay, I can tell everyone in Italy I'm a professional geophysicist again. If I ever go to Italy, that is.

Nov 11, 2014#33

rac3r_x

What the state commits to a case:

What a defendant(s) gets:

Nov 11, 2014#34

DarkAudit

It's Italy. The country that took nearly 15 years to finally settle the legal wranglings in the Ayrton Senna case. Just wait for the appeal and retrial.

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