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Sexism vs bullying: FIGHT!

Mar 21, 2013#1

strawman

So a female tech evangelist is at a technical conference, and overhears two men behind her making what she assumed to be lewd jokes, in the main conference hall, during the presentation.

She turns around, snaps a picture, and posts both the picture and commentary about how offended she was by them, then proceeds to tweet conference organizers who pull the men out of the conference. She then posts a long blog post about how she stood up for women everywhere by standing up to these sexist pigs

End act one.

Act two:

One of the men involved explains his perspective on reddit, indicating that the first comments were not of a sexual nature, and the second joke wasn't started by him, nor did he participate, however he wanted to thank this female evangelist for publicly calling him out for sexual discrimination which resulted in him being fired that morning.

The whole thing erupts as people call the woman a bully, and the company she works for gets ddos'd to the point where they can no longer serve their customers for many, many hours. It appears this is still ongoing.

Shortly after the female tech evangelist is fired and the company she worked for posts this publicly on their Facebook page, assuming that it might quell the raging masses.

Act three:

Who knows?

Right now I can't help but think that it would have been better if she simply turned around, asked the men to stop because it was making her uncomfortable, and moved on. However the conference had a record number of women that year 20% - which is huge in the tech world - and openly proclaimed their diversity and zero tolerance for any kind of abuse, so she was certainly within her rights to request the conference organizers become involved. But the public shaming on twitter (she has a very large following) seems a bit above and beyond what is reasonable action to take against someone for a verbal offense.

The company that fired one of the offenders is at fault, in my opinion, for taking things to the next level, but that's not the interesting point I'm thinking about.

The loss of her job, and the very public hanging she's receiving, sends a very strong message to women in the tech community that if they speak out about offenses and discrimination, they may find themselves without a job.

Even if her public shaming of these men was over the top, and even if they didn't actually say anything that should have been offensive if she heard the whole conversation and had the proper context, the fact that she tried to discuss it publicly, then was publicly beaten in return and lost her job is rather distressing.

I honestly feel everyone's being harmed in this situation. Both companies are losing great people. Both people, the conference, and one company are airing dirty laundry that probably should have been kept behind closed doors, unless one party refuses to deal, then maybe public shaming would be reasonable to get them to understand the problem.

But it's obvious that all parties involved are generally reasonable people, and it seems that if they had discussed things privately first everything would have been resolved without the resulting mess.

Of course, the next generation puts everything on twitter and Facebook. At some point there is no private space, at least no in the minds of the upcoming generation, everything is up for public consideration.

Either way, it's quite an interesting mess if you want to dive in. Google for "Pycon Adria Richards" if you are curious. Everyone seems to have an opinion.

May cooler heads prevail.

Mar 21, 2013#2

Krisken

I'm not commenting until Charlie has had a chance to say something absurd. It's only fair at this point.

Mar 21, 2013#3

Covar

Karma's a ... well, you know.

Mar 21, 2013#4

Dave

Some people take offense to almost anything. The problem isn't when these people are offended, but when others listen to these easily offended people. Like the guy's boss. Or the con taking her word for it and kicking them out. Or HER bosses for firing her.

Everyone in this is wrong, with the exception of the guys who got kicked out. Dongle is a funny word. Deal with it.

Mar 21, 2013#5

sixpackshaker

Something that should have been handled between the adults involved spills out into a public spectacle that got two people fired...

Mar 21, 2013#6

DarkAudit

Cooler heads were nullified when instead of the shot across the bow, she went for the full broadside. Even more so when the other party responded in kind.

"Off with his/her head!" is supposed to be the last resort, not the opening salvo.

Mar 21, 2013#7

Gilgamesh

Krisken said:
I'm not commenting until Charlie has had a chance to say something absurd. It's only fair at this point.

Mar 21, 2013#8

Charlie Don't Surf

stienman said:
Act two:

One of the men involved explains his perspective on reddit, .

lmfao

Mar 21, 2013#9

Fun Size

Charlie Don't Surf said:
lmfao

Just to be clear, you have already discounted anything that he might say in his own defense on the basis of him being accused of something. Am I reading that right?

Mar 21, 2013#10

Chad Sexington

Fun Size said:
Just to be clear, you have already discounted anything that he might say in his own defense on the basis of him being accused of something. Am I reading that right?

No, it's that our accused friend turned to reddit as his pulpit that causes mirth.

Mar 21, 2013#11

Fun Size

Ah. That makes way more sense. Although I'm not sure where else an unemployed guy is going to give his side of the argument.

Mar 21, 2013#12

GasBandit

Lady should have known that when you go right for the jugular, they will too. Live by the sword, die by the sword. If she'd been an adult about it she still could have embarrased her would-be mockers in public, but she had to make an online federal case about it with photos and a paper trail. You only do that shit when you are 100% certain you are right and entirely blameless.

Mar 21, 2013#13

Charlie Don't Surf

It's too perfect that someone accused of misogyny is defending himself on Reddit, is all my lmfao meant. I literally stopped reading there to make that post, I'll read it all later, a lot of people are talking about this on my twitter feed too

Mar 21, 2013#14

Dave

Why does having it on Reddit make it an untenable position? You can have posts even on MensRights that have merit.

Mar 21, 2013#15

D

Dubyamn

Dave said:
Why does having it on Reddit make it an untenable position? You can have posts even on MensRights that have merit.

I don't think he was completely dismissing the guy just saying that Reddit isn't really a place well known for it's respect towards women.

Oddly enough despite all of the female Redditors I know.

Mar 21, 2013#16

Dave

Dubyamn said:
I don't think he was completely dismissing the guy just saying that Reddit isn't really a place well known for it's respect towards women.

Oddly enough despite all of the female Redditors I know.

I agree, but Charlie is particularly dismissive of anything in MensRights. I think Charlie is an SRS guy, personally. I'd check, but I've been banned from there.

Mar 21, 2013#17

Charlie Don't Surf

Dave said:
I agree, but Charlie is particularly dismissive of anything in MensRights. I think Charlie is an SRS guy, personally. I'd check, but I've been banned from there.

lol. I refuse to go to reddit for anything, ever, in any way. Even if it has a subreddit making fun of how much of a shitheap it is. We've had that discussion before. I read copy-pasted posts on occasion and screenshots etc etc, but I'm never clicking there.

also I just read this summary: http://www.dailydot.com/society/pycon-dongle-joke-misogyny-sexism-adria-richards/

Mar 21, 2013#18

Tress

I believe the word "clusterfuck" applies quite well here.

Mar 21, 2013#19

Necronic

Large companies have HR departments dedicated to this kind of shit exactly to avoid situations like this. If I were to make a sexist joke at work and someone found it offensive, there are built in procedures that are meant to be followed. They talk to HR, HR talks to me, maybe I get fired, some sort of resolution is found for all people. Probably not the most righteous resolution, but one that is guided by millions up millions of dollars in lawsuits. If the offended person were to bypass this system and send a company wide e-mail with my name and face along with allegations of sexual harrasment....well they would likely get shit-canned.

But this situation is different for 2 reasons.

1) The tech industry is about as knuckly dragging as wall-street when it comes to misogyny. They are decades behind most other places, which is, frankly, inexcusable. (At least in wall-street you have the excuse that it is an inherently morally compromised workplace to begin with that specifically attracts sociopaths. What's the tech excuse? We never grew up?). Because of this it's likely that there isn't always a good existing HR infrastructure to deal with these things, or if there is it's compromised by a good-old-boy network.

and

2) They were at a conference. There isn't a specific HR department that exists between companies at a place like that. Also, at a place like that you are there as a proxy for your company. You are expected, frankly, to be on best behavior (yes even after you cash in your drink tickets.)

But even with that said....I don't excuse her behavior. She specifically chose to do this in a public forum, which was inappropriate. There were many many MANY better venues, OBVIOUSLY better venues to do so. She could have privately e-mailed the conference organizers. She could have e-mailed the managers of these guys. I don't think it was her responsibility to directly tell the guys it bothered her, that creates a chilling factor, but it was wildly innapropriate to name and shame. Especially doing it without letting the managers of these guys even have a shot at dealing with the problem. I mean...shit, they could have had a woman for a manager, who knows?

She chose vigilante justice. And....I get that the tech industry has some serious issues with sexism. But you don't fix that by doing shit like this. She publicly shamed these guys. And by proxy she publicly shamed their companies. And she did that as a proxy of HER company. This...this was a bad choice.

In the real world, the world that knows how to handle sexism, these guys would probably have gotten a serious sit down with HR, and kept their jobs, but would probably never make this mistake again. Instead, a bunch of people are out of a job and more asshats are probably forming negative opinions about women in the tech industry that are probably pushing gender relations in the tech industry backwards, not forwards.

The main point is that there are no winners here.

Mar 21, 2013#20

Charlie Don't Surf

Also I don't think many people here are realizing how much vile shit was slung her way by ~the internet~. Nothing she did deserved all that.

Mar 21, 2013#21

Necronic

She did not deserve what happened to her. The guys didn't deserve what happened to them. Basically no justice was served here because "professionals" in the IT industry can't seem to wrap their heads around the smallest level of professionalism.

Grow the fuck up IT industry.

Mar 21, 2013#22

Piotyr

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Also I don't think many people here are realizing how much vile shit was slung her way by ~the internet~. Nothing she did deserved all that.

Neither side deserves that, but the internet allows a public voice to everyone, and many people take that to mean they deserve a say as to what happens.

Mar 21, 2013#23

GasBandit

Whinging about the "vile shit" on the internet is the very definition of spitting in the ocean.

Mar 21, 2013#24

Necronic

The one thing I wish a hacker would come up with is a system to defeat internet anonymity.

Mar 21, 2013#25

GasBandit

Necronic said:
The one thing I wish a hacker would come up with is a system to defeat internet anonymity.

Yeah, screw privacy.

Mar 21, 2013#26

Ravenpoe

Necronic said:
The one thing I wish a hacker would come up with is a system to defeat internet anonymity.

If you really want to know what I fap to, all you gotta do is ask.

Mar 21, 2013#27

Dave

GasBandit said:
Yeah, screw privacy.

I agree. In a lot of cases, privacy is a secondary concern.

Mar 21, 2013#28

Chad Sexington

Dave said:
I agree. In a lot of cases, privacy is a secondary concern.

GB was being sarcastic... and... I hope you are too?

Mar 21, 2013#29

Dave

Chad Sexington said:
GB was being sarcastic... and... I hope you are too?

I know he was. I was not. For some things like Twitter, Facebook, and other comment sections, I'm a firm believer in the fact that civility would be much greater were it not for anonymous dickwaddery.

Mar 21, 2013#30

strawman

Necronic said:
The one thing I wish a hacker would come up with is a system to defeat internet anonymity.

China would love that.

Mar 21, 2013#31

Necronic

Yeah...ok I mean I know it's a bad idea. But on the other hand.....fuck 'em.

Mar 21, 2013#32

Zappit

Just more people unable to handle things face-to-face, desiring the attention of countless Internet users.

Mar 21, 2013#33

DarkAudit

Piotyr said:
Neither side deserves that, but the internet allows a public voice to everyone, and many people take that to mean they deserve a say as to what happens.

On the contrary. Both sides intended to stir up an internet shitstorm. If they didn't know by now that this is what happens when you do that, too bad for them.

Mar 21, 2013#34

Charlie Don't Surf

DarkAudit said:
On the contrary. Both sides intended to stir up an internet shitstorm. If they didn't know by now that this is what happens when you do that, too bad for them.

Victim blaming, fuck yeah, just won halforums bingo

Mar 21, 2013#35

DarkAudit

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Victim blaming, fuck yeah, just won halforums bingo

Blow it out your ass, Charlie. If they didn't know by now that this is what happens when you invite the entire Internet to your pitchforks and torches party, it's their own damn fault.

A pox on both their houses.

Mar 21, 2013#36

Bowielee

I'm gonna have to side with the guy on this one. This women should have just said something. She makes it out like she took some sort of brave step forward by speaking out. The brave and proper thing would have been to confront the person who was making the comments. Her actions were downright cowardly.

Mar 21, 2013#37

Charlie Don't Surf

DarkAudit said:
If they didn't know by now that this is what happens when you invite the entire Internet to your pitchforks and torches party, it's their own damn fault..

are you saying that women deserve to be threatened with rape and murder for speaking out against a sexist joke publicly? Really?[DOUBLEPOST=1363923025][/DOUBLEPOST]I also like how the OP sets up the girl as the "bully" when way more bullying tactics were used by 4chan/reddit/~the internet~ to silence and cower the woman that made someone's shitty sex jokes (more) public.

Mar 21, 2013#38

DarkAudit

Charlie Don't Surf said:
are you saying that women deserve to be threatened with rape and murder for speaking out against a sexist joke publicly? Really?[DOUBLEPOST=1363923025][/DOUBLEPOST]I also like how the OP sets up the girl as the "bully" when way more bullying tactics were used by 4chan/reddit/~the internet~ to silence and cower the woman that made someone's shitty sex jokes (more) public.

That is the "Internet shitstorm" pretty much defined these days. And it was both parties intent to unleash said monster upon the other.

What happened after that is out of anyone's control. And these people should have been around the 'net long enough to know that this is what happens. What always happens.

Mar 21, 2013#39

Bowielee

Cause getting someone fired isn't bullying in anyway.

Mar 21, 2013#40

Charlie Don't Surf

DarkAudit said:
That is the "Internet shitstorm" pretty much defined these days. And it was both parties intent to unleash said monster upon the other.

What happened after that is out of anyone's control. And these people should have been around the 'net long enough to know that this is what happens. What always happens.

Come on, man, just say it. Say "she deserved rape threats for her actions".

Also, I don't think she intended to have the men in the situation threatened with rape or death (and I didn't see any of this). AND I don't think the men in the original situation intended anything like that either. They acted pretty... normal/neutral in the wake of it from what I saw.[DOUBLEPOST=1363923591][/DOUBLEPOST]

Bowielee said:
Cause getting someone fired isn't bullying in anyway.

If the story ended with the original incident, yeah, she's the biggest bully. But then reddit/4chan had to be awful and evil and up the ante.

Mar 21, 2013#41

Krisken

This is a case of anyone involved is a tool. From the top on down there was over reaction. The woman- if you have a problem with something someone says, why not confront them instead of making it public for the world on the internet where shit can't be taken back? The guy's employer- wait, you took the word of someone you didn't know off the internet and fired a guy for hearsay? The guy- way to be the bigger man, dick brain. It would have been more humane to shit on the hood of her car in retaliation then enlisting the douche bag army to do your dirty work. The woman's work- oh for fuck's sake, you're punishing the woman because assholes on the internet have nothing to do?

Lesson- everyone is an asshole.

Mar 21, 2013#42

Charlie Don't Surf

Krisken said:
The guy's employer- wait, you took the word of someone you didn't know off the internet and fired a guy for hearsay?.

Again, not to quibble, but the guy's employer said something to the effect of "we conducted a thorough investigation", which says to me that they asked him, and he didn't deny it, then he was let go.

I think dismissing it as "everyone's an asshole" just kind of turns a blind eye to the really vile shit that the woman in this had to endure just for daring to speak out against perceived sexism (even if I believe she did it in a slightly misguided way!).

ALSO again backing up, I don't think the original incident was even really....sexist in nature. It was just inappropriate, and making a joke about fucking a developer could have just as well offended a guy. I know if I overheard the conversation I would have been like smh irl

Mar 21, 2013#43

Krisken

Sounds like an asshole to me. She had a crayon up her ass from an earlier incident and this guy paid the price.

You know, I can tell a stranger I disapprove of what he says, or I can post that shit online and have tons of cyber-dicks fuck with him.

Mar 21, 2013#44

Charlie Don't Surf

Krisken said:
I can post that shit online and have tons of cyber-dicks fuck with him.

I'm not condoning what she did, I'm just saying the stupid online posse on her side... ugh, I hate dumb metaphors, but here we go-

I'm saying the online posse on her side used knives and the 4chan/anonymous/reddit cyber posse defending him used machine guns. And the difference in weapons/approach/numbers is........................ sexism

Mar 21, 2013#45

Krisken

Horseshit. That's possibly the stupidest conclusion I've ever seen. Those pricks also attack Westboro Church and the Church of Scientology, two groups synonymous with bigotry and sexism. Don't fool yourself, they would have fallen over themselves to be a prick to just about anyone. Even you.

Mar 21, 2013#46

Charlie Don't Surf

Krisken said:
Horseshit. That's possibly the stupidest conclusion I've ever seen. Those pricks also attack Westboro Church and the Church of Scientology, two groups synonymous with bigotry and sexism. Don't fool yourself, they would have fallen over themselves to be a prick to just about anyone. Even you.

Those attacks probably use 90% less gendered language and rape threats.

Mar 21, 2013#47

Krisken

Doesn't matter.

Mar 21, 2013#48

Charlie Don't Surf

Krisken said:
Doesn't matter.

Yes... it does. That's the point I'm making. It's more vicious and wrong when it's a single woman instead of an organization and when it's focused on her minority status.

Mar 21, 2013#49

Krisken

You're a special creature, Charlie. You're not a White Knight, you're a Unicorn.

Mar 22, 2013#50

Dave

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Victim blaming, fuck yeah, just won halforums bingo

I rather don't think she's a victim of anything other than being a humorless dolt with a power complex. Now an UNEMPLOYED power complex.

Mar 22, 2013#51

Charlie Don't Surf

Dave said:
being a humorless dolt

What's funny about several dozen people telling her that they wish she gets raped to death?

Mar 22, 2013#52

Dave

Charlie Don't Surf said:
What's funny about several dozen people telling her that they wish she gets raped to death?

I wasn't talking about that part, obviously. I was talking about the start of the whole thing. Is she a victim of harassment after the initial fact? Yup. Should she have been? Nope. Should it even have gotten to that point? Nope. Should the guys have been fired for joking about a dongle? (*snicker*) Nope.

Mar 22, 2013#53

Charlie Don't Surf

I don't think I have much difference of opinion about the initial incident! I think she was in the wrong the way she handled it. I think the guy in question was mostly right / civil in his public postings about it (albeit, I lol-ed at the choice of venue of Reddit, but his actual words weren't horrible or anything).

Mar 22, 2013#54

Krisken

Dave said:
I wasn't talking about that part, obviously. I was talking about the start of the whole thing. Is she a victim of harassment after the initial fact? Yup. Should she have been? Nope. Should it even have gotten to that point? Nope. Should the guys have been fired for joking about a dongle? (*snicker*) Nope.

THIS.

Mar 22, 2013#55

bhamv3

My sympathy for the woman is strongly tempered by the fact that she chose to play with fire, and then ended up horribly horribly burned.

Mar 22, 2013#56

GasBandit

Gettin' back to the whole "anonymity/privacy" thing, if you guys sure as hell want to drive women off the internet, subject them to every Sam Jones and Tom Davis who now knows exactly who does and does not have a vagina.

Mar 22, 2013#57

T

The_Khan

GasBandit said:
Gettin' back to the whole "anonymity/privacy" thing, if you guys sure as hell want to drive women off the internet, subject them to every Sam Jones and Tom Davis who now knows exactly who does and does not have a vagina.

I miss the good ole days of the internet when men were men, women were men and children were gnu agents.

I'm sick and tired of scared pussy cats unable to take a joke about fucking without needing reassurance from their batman.I mean
Dongle is a funny word

For crying out loud i can't even talk about fagging without offending somebody or go stick a fag in my mouth without getting cancer or pick up a fag of wood without hurting myback.

Words are mutable and changeabul. Just look at what happened to aweful and awesome.

Mar 22, 2013#58

Charlie Don't Surf

The_Khan said:
I miss the good ole days of the internet when men were men, women were men and children were gnu agents.

I'm sick and tired of scared pussy cats unable to take a joke about fucking without needing reassurance from their batman.I mean
Dongle is a funny word

For crying out loud i can't even talk about fagging without offending somebody or go stick a fag in my mouth without getting cancer or pick up a fag of wood without hurting myback.

Words are mutable and changeabul. Just look at what happened to aweful and awesome.

You sound like the type of person that would call something "niggardly" around black people and then call them the true bigots if they say anything.

Mar 22, 2013#59

Bowielee

And you sound like someone who would be offended if someone said they had a niggling doubt.

Mar 22, 2013#60

Krisken

It's ok, I'm taking it back.

Mar 22, 2013#61

T

The_Khan

[quoI spend everyday e="Charlie Don't Surf, post: 1037664, member: 247"]You sound like the type of person that would call something "niggardly" around black people and then call them the true bigots if they say anything.[/quote]

No i spend everyday as an immigrant surrounded by other immigrants. Im also the type of asshole to compliment a British woman's fanny pack. And call a car full of males a car full of boys. I'm the type of asshole who sees nothing unusual pabout patting a kid on the top of the head. Or nothing fight worthy from a thumbs up.

Mar 22, 2013#62

Charlie Don't Surf

The_Khan said:
And call a car full of males a car full of boys. I'm the type of asshole who sees nothing unusual pabout patting a kid on the top of the head. Or nothing fight worthy from a thumbs up.

okay, now I'm confused.[DOUBLEPOST=1363951667][/DOUBLEPOST]

Bowielee said:
And you sound like someone who would be offended if someone said they had a niggling doubt.

nah!

Mar 22, 2013#63

Covar

bhamv3 said:
My sympathy for the woman is strongly tempered by the fact that she chose to play with fire, and then ended up horribly horribly burned.

So much this. It's not okay to publicly shame people as the face of all sexism in tech (that's going to make it easy to get another job), and you don't get to act shocked and indignant when the same thing is turned around back on you.

Mar 22, 2013#64

Charlie Don't Surf

Covar said:
So much this. It's not okay to publicly shame people as the face of all sexism in tech (that's going to make it easy to get another job), and you don't get to act shocked and indignant when the same thing is turned around back on you.

did she threaten to rape and kill those two guys that made a sexist joke, or did I miss something

Mar 22, 2013#65

Frank

She's been harassed, he didn't do the harassing, they've both lost their jobs. Seems like everyone's a loser.

Mar 22, 2013#66

DarkAudit

Charlie Don't Surf said:
did she threaten to rape and kill those two guys that made a sexist joke, or did I miss something

Did those two guys threaten to rape or kill her? Not the internet mob they called forth, those two guys.

Mar 22, 2013#67

T

The_Khan

Quote="Charlie Don't Surf, post: 1037672, member: 247"]okay, now I'm confused.[DOUBLEPOST=1363951667][/DOUBLEPOST]

nah![/quote]
Fanny in England means vagina
The hmung will be hugely offended if you touch the top of their kids heads
Some black people have been offended when I was traveling with them and reffered to the car with all girls as the girls car and the car with all males as the boys car
The dai in China will traditionally kill you if you touch their ancestors pillar in the house and force you to marry their daughter if you touch a different post
If a pregnant woman in Yunan is raped and murdered the family will wrap her grave in silver chains to prevent the vengeful spirit from returning from the grave and killing her killer or else they will bury her in a red dress and give her a sword if they want it to happen.

And in America you can't call a dongle a bit of dangling tackle.

And on the internet there exists a malignant preseence that think rape he hello.

Note the red dress pregnant woman hasn't been practiced too often recently. I was traveling through humans countryside for three months back in 06 when we ended up in the cemetery in a small village and came across a grave covered in chains. A local then told the story. Don't know if true.

Cultural differences.

Fanny

Mar 22, 2013#68

Charlie Don't Surf

DarkAudit said:
Did those two guys threaten to rape or kill her? Not the internet mob they called forth, those two guys.

Mar 22, 2013#69

Necronic

Bowielee said:
I'm gonna have to side with the guy on this one. This women should have just said something. She makes it out like she took some sort of brave step forward by speaking out. The brave and proper thing would have been to confront the person who was making the comments. Her actions were downright cowardly.

I'm really bothered that people think this way. No HR manager would consider a complaint to be cowardly for not having approached the other person first. That should NEVER be a requirement. Sure, you could do it if you want, but you should have the right to be privately complain and remain anonymous if you desire. The biggest problem with defeating sexism in places where it is heavily entrenched is the chill-factor against reporting it. No one wants to be known as the killjoy.

That said: She used a public twitter with her name on it. The poor judgement she used is very apparent.

Mar 22, 2013#70

Krisken

Necronic said:
I'm really bothered that people think this way. No HR manager would consider a complaint to be cowardly for not having approached the other person first. That should NEVER be a requirement. Sure, you could do it if you want, but you should have the right to be privately complain and remain anonymous if you desire. The biggest problem with defeating sexism in places where it is heavily entrenched is the chill-factor against reporting it. No one wants to be known as the killjoy.

That said: She used a public twitter with her name on it. The poor judgement she used is very apparent.

Yup, key words being PRIVATELY COMPLAIN AND REMAIN ANONYMOUS. She threw that out the window when she acted like she was a righteous crusader.

Mar 22, 2013#71

Necronic

Agreed.

Mar 22, 2013#72

strawman

She could still have reported it privately and had the convention staff deal with it according to their procedures, and then wrote a blog post about the experience without naming names or showing photographs.

Then both of her primary purposes would have been accomplished, without the third purpose of public shaming.

Don't get me wrong, public shaming can be a very effective tool, but it needs to be applied very carefully. I'm not saying it should never happen, but one should be prepared for the consequences, if any, of choosing to publicly shame someone else, or do so anonymously, as anonymous does.

There's a lot of blowback on anonymous for outing a number of things recently, but there's no single target for the blowback, so it's not a problem for them.

Either way, she needed to have anonymized the individuals, or herself, if she didn't want to suffer the consequences of her public shaming.

Mar 22, 2013#73

Charlie Don't Surf

Here's another good read on the subject - http://www.buzzfeed.com/courtneystanton/a-woman-walks-into-a-tech-conference

Mar 22, 2013#74

GasBandit

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Here's another good read on the subject - http://www.buzzfeed.com/courtneystanton/a-woman-walks-into-a-tech-conference

Written by Courtney Stanton, the chick who went thermonuclear over the penny arcade dickwolves.

Mar 22, 2013#75

Charlie Don't Surf

GasBandit said:
Written by Courtney Stanton, the chick who went thermonuclear over the penny arcade dickwolves.

yeah she has a pretty good perspective on this firsthand sexism in tech/gaming shit, good job pointing that out!

Mar 22, 2013#76

GasBandit

Charlie Don't Surf said:
yeah she has a pretty good perspective on this firsthand sexism in tech/gaming shit, good job pointing that out!

Always happy to provide the proper frame of reference.

Mar 22, 2013#77

strawman

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Here's another good read on the subject - http://www.buzzfeed.com/courtneystanton/a-woman-walks-into-a-tech-conference

She makes pretty much all the same major points I made. The public shaming she performed was a poor choice. The public reaction was uncalled for. The company's reactions were inappropriate.

She says that if Adria had contacted Pycon privately it would have been swept under the rug, and so she thinks that the public shaming wasn't as bad as I think it was. I don't believe that to be the case, but it's supposition either way. If this is a possibility though, then I'd suggest a slower course of escalation, rather than going all the way to the top and hitting the men publicly and directly.

Mar 22, 2013#78

Covar

stienman said:
She makes pretty much all the same major points I made. The public shaming she performed was a poor choice. The public reaction was uncalled for. The company's reactions were inappropriate.

but you have a penis and don't hate yourself for it, so your opinion is irrelevant and invalid.

Mar 22, 2013#79

Charlie Don't Surf

Covar said:
but you have a penis and don't hate yourself for it, so your opinion is irrelevant and invalid.

lol

Mar 22, 2013#80

Bubble181

If she'd sent the Twitter pic or whatever just to PyCon security/management, the guys would've been escorted from the hall (as they were) and asked to apologize (as they were). No more would have had to come from it. And, while I think the joke was relatively innocent and, while sexual in nature, not sexist, I can understand her not appreciating it - and '"no sexual jokes" was in the con guidelines, so, eh.
Had they swept it iunder the rug, and had she made it public after that, to shame the guys and the con management, I might've been ok with it (though I'd still say she was overreacting to a bad joke).

Going to the public shaming as first course of action, meant she was being a boneheaded, entitled airhead. Did she really not think through what might happen? Then she's irresponsible. Did she think it through? Then she's a horrible person.

Anonymous' overreaction is typical and wrong and all that, but not the guys' fault. The ONLY thing those guys were guilty of was making a joke that was arguably in bad taste. She blew it all up, and it exploded in her face. No, she doesn't deserve rape threats or death threats or whatever...But she's not the holy virgin, either. She's the cause it escalated.

Also, this sort of thing is exactly where we're going with society. People's views on privacy, anonimity, freedom of speech,... are changing rapidly, and not only for the better.

Mar 22, 2013#81

Covar

https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425

herp derp, dick joke.

Mar 22, 2013#82

Charlie Don't Surf

Covar said:
https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425

herp derp, dick joke.

oh, whew, thanks, now I can tell her to kill herself in peace!

Mar 22, 2013#83

Covar

Well that's the exact kind of thing that caused a person to lose their jobs after public ridicule and shaming, and that was perfectly okay with you. So rest easy.

Mar 22, 2013#84

GasBandit

Charlie Don't Surf said:
oh, whew, thanks, now I can tell her to kill herself in peace!

Everybody else here is discussing the merits of what she did and what the two men at the conference did. You're the only one still screaming into the typhoon about the bestial inhuman force that is anonymous - mob mentality on steroids and cybernetics. You might as well blame the tiger that eats the man who jumps in his cage.

Mar 22, 2013#85

Necronic

The one trick thing is that, if she did it privately, she never would have known if it was swept under the rug or not. Honestly I doubt it would have been.

Ed: reading that article....Jesus chris wtf is wrong with the tech community?

Ed2: in a weird turn of events Charlie just posted an article that criticizes Juilian Assange and Michael Moore as Rape Aologists. Will the cognitive dissonance be resolved? Stay tuned for another episode of "When Militant Ideocracies Colide!"

Mar 22, 2013#86

Frank

Do you know who's either genius clickbaiting or just completely not self-aware of just how shitty this makes them look in the current climate in the tech industry? Complex.

http://www.complex.com/tech/2013/03/the-40-hottest-women-in-tech/

Ha ha ha, Jesus guys.

Mar 22, 2013#87

GasBandit

Frank said:
Do you know who's either genius clickbaiting or just completely not self-aware of just how shitty this makes them look in the current climate in the tech industry? Complex.

http://www.complex.com/tech/2013/03/the-40-hottest-women-in-tech/

Ha ha ha, Jesus guys.

HAH.. Number 40:

Marina Orlova
Affiliation/ Company: HotForWords (YouTube channel)
Position: Show Host

The popular Internet sensation is now host of a bi-weekly radio show on Sirius Satellite Radio for Maxim.

Marina Orlova is as much part of the "tech" sector/industry as the girls that lay on cars at auto shows are part of the auto industry.

Mar 22, 2013#88

Frank

That list reminded me of Amber MacArthur. She was rad and makes me miss TechTV.

Mar 26, 2013#89

Adam

Guy didn't post his apology to Reddit, he posted it to Hackernews, where Adria Richards had also posted about the incident. He didn't call out the hordes and when things started ramping up, he tried to tamp them down to no avail.

There are two victims:

1) Guy gets fired for making silly "big" dongle joke
2) Adria Richards is a victim of her own whiteknightedness.

Yeah, it's a shame that 'The Internet", nebulous beast that it is, is now attacking poor Adria Richards, saying terrible things about her. But her gender plays as little role in it as the Ocean Marketing fiasco. "The Internet" is going to attack perceived injustice regardless of gender. The insults will cater towards potential hot button items, but that's the purpose of an insult. What's the point in insulting someone with a softball?

Mar 26, 2013#90

Charlie Don't Surf

Adam said:
2) Adria Richards is a victim of her own whiteknightedness.

wrong

But her gender plays as little role in it as the Ocean Marketing fiasco.

wrong

Mar 26, 2013#91

blotsfan

I think if she was a man, she wouldn't get the rape comments, but she'd still be humiliated and fired anyways.

Mar 26, 2013#92

Charlie Don't Surf

blotsfan said:
I think if she was a man, she wouldn't get the rape comments,

that's a bingo

Mar 26, 2013#93

strawman

Well, as I've considered the subject over the last several days, I've altered my stance it ever-so-slightly.

I no longer think Adria is wrong to have conducted the public shaming. I don't think it was the best way to handle the situation, but I believe that she has a right to call people out when they're being idiots, and that if more people did that we'd have fewer problems with idiots mouthing off inappropriately in public spaces.

I still think both firings were overreaction to the situation, and the public response both ways is staggering in it's wrongheadedness.

But she should not have been punished for posting a picture and publicly telling everyone that this guy made her feel bad in a public area.

Further, she never once named the individual, so it's not even a full-on public shaming. His company might have overreacted when they "fired" him, but note that two people were in the picture from that company, and only one was fired, and that only after a discussion with the two. He identified himself when he publicly "thanked" her for getting him fired, but obviously he did something slightly different than the other guy when he talked to his bosses and/or HR department. It is likely that it's not just the comments and the picture that got him fired, but the conversations he had with his company afterwards about it that got him fired, as obviously the other guy didn't get fired, and the only difference between the two must have occurred in the company after the conference.

Anyway. Everyone got hurt. Hope they all land on their feet.

Mar 26, 2013#94

Charlie Don't Surf

stienman said:
Anyway. Everyone got hurt. Hope they all land on their feet.

actually I'm pretty sure there have been no / minimal consequences for all the people that told her to get raped and die.

Mar 26, 2013#95

strawman

A number of people had their twitter accounts suspended or deleted for abuse directed toward adria. States are looking at anti-bullying statutes that would cover this situation for legal prosecution, though in connection to other cases.

It's not perfect, but we've made some progress in the right direction and continue to do so.

But you're right, not everyone got hurt.

Though most of those you're concerned about got butthurt.

Does that count?

Mar 26, 2013#96

Charlie Don't Surf

stienman said:
Though most of those you're concerned about got butthurt.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised when you post insults that make fun of and insult gay sex.

Mar 26, 2013#97

Adam

Charlie Don't Surf said:
wrong

She White Knighted "Women in IT" and she was fired for it. Factually correct.

wrong

Is there a difference between someone saying "You should be raped." and being raped?

Important question.

Mar 26, 2013#98

Charlie Don't Surf

Adam said:
Is there a difference between someone saying "You should be raped." and being raped?

Important question.

are you implying that verbal / written abuse doesn't count?

Mar 26, 2013#99

strawman

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I guess I shouldn't be surprised when you post insults that make fun of and insult gay sex.

Actually I always associated that with getting a wedgie, or getting your knickers in a twist.

I apologize if my use of the term "butthurt" offended you or anyone else, and I'll avoid using it in the future now that I know some associate it with negative gay stereotypes.

Mar 26, 2013#100

GasBandit

stienman said:
Actually I always associated that with getting a wedgie, or getting your knickers in a twist.

I apologize if my use of the term "butthurt" offended you or anyone else, and I'll avoid using it in the future now that I know some associate it with negative gay stereotypes.

Actually, it doesn't. That's just charlie being butthurt.

Mar 26, 2013#101

Charlie Don't Surf

oh, let me just click that "know your meme" link and give a fuck about what it says... I'm going... to do that right... right now

Mar 26, 2013#102

Frank

Butthurt being derived from pain in the ass and spanking makes more sense than the pain of having anal sex since it's usually meant to describe whining.

Mar 26, 2013#103

Tress

Charlie Don't Surf said:
oh, let me just click that "know your meme" link and give a fuck about what it says... I'm going... to do that right... right now

That's about what I expect out of you. Faced with some evidence that you're wrong (again), you just run and hide.

Mar 26, 2013#104

GasBandit

Tress said:
That's about what I expect out of you. Faced with some evidence that you're wrong (again), you just run and hide.

That's cause he's butthurt about being wrong about butthurt.

Mar 26, 2013#105

Charlie Don't Surf

Tress said:
That's about what I expect out of you. Faced with some evidence that you're wrong (again), you just run and hide.

know your meme isn't evidence, it's a really stupid fucking site I wouldn't trust to tell me what day it is

Mar 26, 2013#106

Tress

Charlie Don't Surf said:
know your meme isn't evidence, it's a really stupid fucking site I wouldn't trust to tell me what day it is

That sums up how I feel about you.

Mar 26, 2013#107

strawman

GasBandit said:
Actually, it doesn't. That's just charlie being butthurt.

I...I can never love again!

Mar 26, 2013#108

GasBandit

Charlie Don't Surf said:
know your meme isn't evidence, it's a really stupid fucking site I wouldn't trust to tell me what day it is

Actually, they do some pretty in depth documentation and research into the origin of internet memes, showing first known usage and trends. You're just dismissive because you're a ċunt.

Mar 26, 2013#109

strawman

Actually what I meant to say was that if Charlie Don't Surf interprets it that way, then chances are others do too. Similar to how talking about dongles and forking, even without the sexual overtones (yes, these are terms I use regularly to describe specific objects and tasks related to my work), could be misinterpreted, I do need to know when others have a connotation for a word or phrase I don't know so I can avoid it when the audience calls for it.

Mar 26, 2013#110

GasBandit

stienman said:
Actually what I meant to say was that if Charlie Don't Surf interprets it that way, then chances are others do too. Similar to how talking about dongles and forking, even without the sexual overtones (yes, these are terms I use regularly to describe specific objects and tasks related to my work), could be misinterpreted, I do need to know when others have a connotation for a word or phrase I don't know so I can avoid it when the audience calls for it.

Surrendering cromulent usage to belligerent ignorance is anathema to me, as it reinforces the misinterpretation and gives cretins control over the evolution of our communication and our culture.

Mar 26, 2013#111

Frank

How intellectually embiggened of you.

Mar 26, 2013#112

Chad Sexington

stienman said:
Actually what I meant to say was that if Charlie Don't Surf interprets it that way, then chances are others do too.

Yeah I always thought it was derogatory/anal sex thing, and was surprised you'd used it since that seemed out of character. BUT NOW I KNOW and ... knowing is ... 50% of something...

Mar 26, 2013#113

strawman

Chad Sexington said:
Yeah I always thought it was derogatory/anal sex thing, and was surprised you'd used it since that seemed out of character. BUT NOW I KNOW and ... knowing is ... 50% of something...

The other 50% is superior firepower.

Mar 26, 2013#114

Charlie Don't Surf

I've never NOT heard it associated with that / homosexuality / having sissy feelings / etc.

That's not even getting into the whole. Well, let's just pretend it has nothing to do with anal sex. It's still making fun of someone for having feelings, which is another level of fucked up.

Mar 26, 2013#115

GasBandit

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I've never NOT heard it associated with that / homosexuality / having sissy feelings / etc.

That's not even getting into the whole. Well, let's just pretend it has nothing to do with anal sex. It's still making fun of someone for having feelings, which is another level of fucked up.

/thorspeak engage

Thy MEWLING is reminiscent of a small child what has been flatly struck upon his fundament, and is an unending source of amusement!

And HA HA you have feelings!

Mar 26, 2013#116

Charlie Don't Surf

GasBandit said:
/thorspeak engage

Thy MEWLING is reminiscent of a small child what has been flatly struck upon his fundament, and is an unending source of amusement!

And HA HA you have feelings!

okay um, whatever, cool post???

Mar 26, 2013#117

tegid

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I've never NOT heard it associated with that / homosexuality / having sissy feelings / etc.

Haven't you? Or have you never NOT interpreted it that way?

Mar 26, 2013#118

Charlie Don't Surf

tegid said:
Haven't you? Or have you never NOT interpreted it that way?

hearing it usually combined with that word the filter bans probably colored it a certain way, I think. I don't think it's some big stretch.

Mar 26, 2013#119

Covar

tegid said:
Haven't you? Or have you never NOT interpreted it that way?

How else is he supposed to get offended?

Mar 26, 2013#120

sixpackshaker

For all those decades that pain in the butt has been pushed around, I never once thought of anal sex. To me it was always spanking, or hemorrhoids.

Mar 26, 2013#121

Azurephoenix

So when I say something is a pain in the ass it's obviously a derogatory reference to anal sex? Wow Charlie... thanks for informing me... you are truly a hero!

Mar 26, 2013#122

Gared

Does that mean that when I say something is a pain in the neck, it's a derogatory reference to oral sex?

Mar 26, 2013#123

Charlie Don't Surf

Stop putting words* in my mouth, please. I never said that. I really don't think "pain in my ass" is an anti-gay slur at all. I'm not an insult historian or whatever and I admittedly could be wrong on the butthurt thing! I'm just going on how I've seen it predominantly.

*or dicks

Mar 26, 2013#124

sixpackshaker

There's nothing wrong about putting a dick in someone's mouth...

Mar 26, 2013#125

Charlie Don't Surf

I was cutting off (lol) any bad jokes like that

also it would be rape since I'm heterosexual

Mar 26, 2013#126

Gared

I don't know... according to Charlie, Steak and BJ day is horribly sexist, and since all that that day entails is eating steak and getting a BJ, that must mean that putting a dick in someone's mouth is a horrible crime against humanity.

Mar 26, 2013#127

Charlie Don't Surf

Gared said:
I don't know... according to Charlie, Steak and BJ day is horribly sexist,

right

and since all that that day entails is eating steak and getting a BJ,

wrong

that must mean that putting a dick in someone's mouth is a horrible crime against humanity.

wrong, as long as they want it there. I've done it before

Mar 26, 2013#128

GasBandit

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I've done it before

Monster.

Mar 26, 2013#129

Bowielee

Charlie Don't Surf said:
hearing it usually combined with that word the filter bans probably colored it a certain way, I think. I don't think it's some big stretch.

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I don't think it's some big stretch.

Charlie Don't Surf said:
some big stretch.

Charlie Don't Surf said:

big stretch.

Click to expand...

Mar 26, 2013#130

Adam

Charlie Don't Surf said:
are you implying that verbal / written abuse doesn't count?

Does the gender of the recipient matter when it's verbal/written abuse?

Mar 26, 2013#131

Charlie Don't Surf

Adam said:
Does the gender of the recipient matter when it's verbal/written abuse?

I think a man telling a woman to get raped to death is different / more sinister and can be more painful I guess, for lack of a better word, than the same threats at a man.

Mar 26, 2013#132

Adam

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I think a man telling a woman to get raped to death is different / more sinister and can be more painful I guess, for lack of a better word, than the same threats at a man.

And why is that exactly? Because men can't get raped to death? Is it not just as horrible a crime? Or simply because women are raped more than men.

A man who was raped would probably respond worse to that comment than a woman who hasn't, would you agree?

Mar 26, 2013#133

Charlie Don't Surf

Adam said:
And why is that exactly? Because men can't get raped to death? Is it not just as horrible a crime? Or simply because women are raped more than men.

A man who was raped would probably respond worse to that comment than a woman who hasn't, would you agree?

Definitely. Men being raped is vastly underreported / overlooked because so few men will come forward and report it because of the bullshit macho culture (hint: you perpetuate it) in society. Also the avalanche of prison rape jokes in EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE makes people think A) they deserved it for commiting a crime and/or B) it's not a big deal.

however, that all being said, yeah, women are much more sexually assaulted than men still despite the above and it's a more real fear for them than the inverse due to rape culture and the patriarchy

Mar 26, 2013#134

Adam

So, in summation, written abuse that aligns with historical cultural flaws against specific groups is explicitly unacceptable, but can be situationally acceptable against other groups as long as they haven't suffered similar injustices (Whether known or unknown)

Let's replace Adria Richards with Paul Christophoro from Ocean Marketing.

Paul had a bit of a tiff with Penny Arcade, background thread here: https://www.halforums.com/threads/maker-of-game-controllers-declares-war-on-penny-arcade.26947/

He received death threats to his family, to himself, to his business; threats of rape, violence, basically everything that Adria Richards received and certainly a wider audience due to Penny Arcade's popularity

I want to draw your attention to one specific post you made in that thread:
https://www.halforums.com/threads/m...-war-on-penny-arcade.26947/page-3#post-896884

I have zero sympathy for the PR guy and am not defending him in any way.

Selective sympathy is the worst kind of arrogance. You explicitly sanctioned the abuse one person received based on the fact that he has probably not been raped in the past?

Is your world view so coloured by bigotry? I can tolerate bigots; often they don't know the damage they do. Zealots, no.

Mar 26, 2013#135

Charlie Don't Surf

holy shit you got me!!!

I only knew about the professional abuse / people disowning his products on twitter, what the PA guys did publically, this is actually the first I heard that he had death threats to him and his family.

Mar 27, 2013#136

Dave

And in this thread, ladies and gentlemen, Charlie got OWNED!

Mar 27, 2013#137

Charlie Don't Surf

Dave said:
And in this thread, ladies and gentlemen, Charlie got OWNED!

not really, I had no idea him / his family was personally threatened or harassed, I wouldn't have said "I have zero sympathy" if I knew that. My shallow reading of that thing was just people bullying his controllers or whatever

Mar 27, 2013#138

Ravenpoe

Charlie Don't Surf said:
not really, I had no idea him / his family was personally threatened or harassed, I wouldn't have said "I have zero sympathy" if I knew that. My shallow reading of that thing was just people bullying his controllers or whatever

This isn't an attack, I like you Charlie, but your shallow involvement in everything is why so many people argue with you.

Except Gilgamesh, that's just his fetish.

Mar 27, 2013#139

Gilgamesh

Ravenpoe said:
Except Gilgamesh, that's just his fetish.

Mar 28, 2013#140

T

The_Khan

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I was cutting off (lol) any bad jokes like that

also it would be rape since I'm heterosexual

Really? i didn't think it would be too big of a gap, but i always pegged you as somebody who would enjoy pegging.

Don't be so silly Charlie, anal sex isn't just for gay people and regular women.

Do you think dog pile is a reference to rape?

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