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'Sexy' stuff that just comes off as...

Sep 6, 2012#1

LittleSin

Lately I have been more critical of depictions of women in media.

You see, I LOVE sexy depictions of characters and stuff. However, I've been finding that artist and writers are missing more than they are hitting lately. Anatomy fails, skimpy outfits, stupid clichés are turning me off.

So here is a thread where you can post things where the intention was 'sexy' or 'eye catching' but just came off as dumb or exploitive.

Things such as this:

I've posted this before so I'll just list off my problems:

-reflections don't work that way
-Oracles expression doesn't convey shock. It conveys "Please don't get it in my hair!"
-Oracles breast size seems to have increased three fold.
-Oracle apparently doesn't believe in proper support
-That hand in the right corner...is that hers? Is she in a arm chair? Where the hell is she that she can be in a leather arm chair but still depict a city in the relfection of the glasses?

So, anyone else have pics or other examples to share so we can kill each others libidos?

Sep 6, 2012#2

Ravenpoe

I'm on my phone, so someone else will need to post every woman Rob Liefield has ever drawn.

Sep 6, 2012#3

LittleKagsin

I actually follow a tumblr that is specifically for this subject:

eschergirls.tumblr.com

My biggest complaint is the noodle spine. People, females in general, are often drawn contorting their bodies in ways that just...do not work, ever. Like the ever present 'boobs and butt' pose - where both buttcheeks and both boobs are in full view..that just does not happen without breaking your back.

Sep 6, 2012#4

Covar

Adam Hughes Catwoman cover, featuring Zatanna. I seem to recall him apologizing for this one.

Sep 6, 2012#5

sixpackshaker

Looks like she put her thong on backwards...

Sep 6, 2012#6

WasabiPoptart

LittleSin said:
Where the hell is she that she can be in a leather arm chair but still depict a city in the relfection of the glasses?

Leather seats in a convertible with the top down.

Sep 6, 2012#7

sixpackshaker

Super Plush, wheel chair?

Sep 6, 2012#8

LittleSin

WasabiPoptart said:
Leather seats in a convertible with the top down.

That makes sense.

One mystery solved![DOUBLEPOST=1346952833][/DOUBLEPOST]

Covar said:
Adam Hughes Catwoman cover, featuring Zatanna. I seem to recall him apologizing for this one.

Either she magiked her boobs up a few sizes or that's a too tiny, push up bra at work.

Sep 6, 2012#9

WasabiPoptart

And on topic, I am all for a thin waist, but sometimes it looks ridiculous. Psylocke, who is one of my favorite X-Men characters, sometimes looks like she should snap in half when she stands up because she's disproportionate IMO.

Sep 6, 2012#10

Bowielee

WasabiPoptart said:
And on topic, I am all for a thin waist, but sometimes it looks ridiculous. Psylocke, who is one of my favorite X-Men characters, sometimes looks like she should snap in half when she stands up because she's disproportionate IMO.

In defense of Joe Madureira, his men are drawn with similarly weird proportions.

Sep 6, 2012#11

GasBandit

Boobs. Hee hee.

Sep 6, 2012#12

LittleSin

If you like your girls looking like road kill.

Sep 6, 2012#13

Tress

This whole thread:

Sep 6, 2012#14

GasBandit

I don't care whatchoo guys say, that oracle picture is HAWT.

Sep 6, 2012#15

Gusto

Sep 6, 2012#16

ThatNickGuy

http://www.progressiveboink.com/2012/4/21/2960508/worst-rob-liefeld-drawings

Gotcha covered, Ravenpoe. The above link will have a LOT of examples of Rob Liefeld. I'll just post a few:

It's not just women, though. Liefeld's most hilarious was this Captain America one. Just try figuring out Cap's anatomy here:

Sep 6, 2012#17

Yoshimickster

Ikki Tousen. Look it up, I can't find a specific picture finding how awful it is. I mean sweet satan, in one episode a chicks shirt disintegrated after it faced one punch. ONE PUNCH! What was it made of paper or something?

Sep 7, 2012#18

Azurephoenix

ThatNickGuy... holy crap... those Liefield drawings had me howling with how bad they were. I was never into comics so I never really knew what people were talking about with the whole Liefield draws like crap thing. Now I know. God he is TERRIBLE! I have have never seen someone so devoted to ignoring how basic anatomy work. Plus his pouch fetish is kind of weird.

Sep 7, 2012#19

evilmike

(via The Mary Sue)

Sep 7, 2012#20

Yoshimickster

Dear lord its like she's being compressed by a vacuum. Also how can we forget:

Keep in mind she's a character in a tournament where people have swords and other bladed weaponry. How the hell she survived 4 tournaments is beyond me. Well...other than the obvious reason I don't need to say.

Sep 7, 2012#21

GasBandit

Yoshimickster said:
Dear lord its like she's being compressed by a vacuum. Also how can we forget:

Keep in mind she's a character in a tournament where people have swords and other bladed weaponry. How the hell she survived 4 tournaments is beyond me. Well...other than the obvious reason I don't need to say.

Fixed your broken hotlinked image.

Also, how did she survive? By being the daughter of an undead demon-sword-possessed pirate who has her own semisentient prehensile-whip/sword.

And of course by the law of inverse-AC female armor.

Sep 7, 2012#22

LittleSin

Y' know, I always thought Ivy's weapon was awesome. Her personality as well.

However her armor conflicts with her sly, upper class personality.

Sep 7, 2012#23

Yoshimickster

Still, she has over a million open spots. Plus having an awesome magic weapon doesn't always save the day.

Edit: Unless she's wearing such armor to get her opponents off guard. Is that her deal? I would buy that if it was her deal.

Sep 7, 2012#24

Bowielee

evilmike said:
(via The Mary Sue)

really, this would have been a great drawing if not for the impossible placement of her boobs.

Sep 7, 2012#25

GasBandit

Sep 7, 2012#26

LittleKagsin

Like I said, 'boobs and butt pose' = never happens in real life ever. See also 'broken spine'.

Sep 7, 2012#27

LittleSin

I think you missed where I said I didn't like her armor.

Also, a "sword whip" is a real thing though not like it is in the game.

Sep 7, 2012#28

GasBandit

There's also this one which has been in a previous thread on the subject:

It led to people trying to imitate the pose.

Sep 7, 2012#29

Yoshimickster

LittleSin said:
I think you missed where I said I didn't like her armor.

Also, a "sword whip" is a real thing though not like it is in the game.

Really? Damn I want one of those then. And my armor post was actually towards GasBandit. Probably shoulda put @ thingamajig in there, and I apologize.

Sep 7, 2012#30

LittleKagsin

GasBandit said:
There's also this one which has been in a previous thread on the subject:

It led to people trying to imitate the pose.

This one is just..insane. But I feel bad making fun of it...J. Scott used his girlfriend, who actually does sit like that, as inspiration. And since I know her..I feel bad.

But really J. Scott, c'mon!

Sep 7, 2012#31

GasBandit

Speaking of J Scott Campbell -

Sep 7, 2012#32

LittleSin

Me scrolling down this image:

Me @ the head: Nice hair...freckles...narrow face. So far to good.

Me @ Shoulder: Meow! Shoulders freckles!

Me @ Everything else: Holy shit...is she made out of silly putty? Look at her spine! And..and...that tail! Mermaids wouldn't work like that! That's her wearing a mermaid costume...there wouldn't be a KNEE joint in the tail![DOUBLEPOST=1347039492][/DOUBLEPOST]Voila.

Sep 7, 2012#33

Gusto

This doesn't follow mermaid science!

Sep 7, 2012#34

LittleSin

I know it's silly but I've been on a huge roll reading anatomy books and 'non-fiction' lately. Also, I have tumblr and these things are always sliding across my dash.

Sep 7, 2012#35

Gusto

LittleSin said:
I know it's silly but I've been on a huge roll reading anatomy books and 'non-fiction' lately. Also, I have tumblr and these things are always sliding across my dash.

Haha, no worries dogg.

Sep 7, 2012#36

Norris

This Justice League Cover:

From the amount of skin she's showing to the look on her face to her pose, Wondy just looks insanely out of place. In the name of "sexiness".

Sep 7, 2012#37

LittleSin

The first thing I notice about that one: they didn't even try to shade her like the others.

The second thing: Her head is way to big for her body...or vice versa.

Sep 7, 2012#38

Norris

LittleSin said:
The first thing I notice about that one: they didn't even try to shade her like the others.

The second thing: Her head is way to big for her body...or vice versa.

I think she ends up looking like a sexy cosplayer the male members got to stand in for Wonder Woman. Also, the only member not included is the black dude. Huh.

Sep 7, 2012#39

ThatNickGuy

Superman's all like, "HELLO CHICAGO! ARE YOU READY TO ROCK!?"

Sep 7, 2012#40

GasBandit

All the guys are doing their darkseid impressions.[DOUBLEPOST=1347046980][/DOUBLEPOST]Intentional but funny. NSFW, Oglaf.

Sep 7, 2012#41

Wahad

Broken image, Gas.

Sep 7, 2012#42

GasBandit

Wahad said:
Broken image, Gas.

Fixed. So oglaf finally got some hotlink protection. I'll be durned.

Sep 7, 2012#43

Yoshimickster

Norris What the hell is with Wonder Woman's facial structure? It doesn't look right at all. She looks more like a cat than a person.

Sep 7, 2012#44

linglingface

Bellechere shared this one:

Sep 7, 2012#45

ThatNickGuy

Chiropractors for women must make MILLIONS servicing comic book females.

Sep 7, 2012#46

Yoshimickster

What the hell is with comic artists and not knowing how to make a proper waist? It's either too wider or too narrow. TAKE A DAMN ANATOMY CLASS!

Sep 7, 2012#47

ThatNickGuy

See, what bothers me isn't just the lack of anatomy. It's the artists that know anatomy...but then forget that clothes on someone, even if they're muscular, doesn't show every single muscle, even in spandex (just look at pro-wrestlers). It's like they draw them naked.

Sep 7, 2012#48

Yoshimickster

Or how they over-extenuate veins in some heroes. Unless they are mutant, they should not look so damn vascular. The nineties was full of vascular weirdos.

Sep 7, 2012#49

Covar

heatherling said:
Bellechere shared this one:

Poor Spider-man, he has a broken leg, and the same back problem as Captain Marvel.

Sep 7, 2012#50

Yoshimickster

Covar Normally I'd just say its because of his super physiology but...not those are some fucked up legs.

Sep 8, 2012#51

HowDroll

We can rename this to "Why HowDroll Doesn't Read Comics: The Thread."

Sep 8, 2012#52

Bowielee

Here's the thing, though, I never expect comics to look realistic. In fact some of the concession of sequential art is that in order to convey motion, a bit of stylization is needed. For example I have no problem with the Ms. Marvel (i guess that's her new constume... ugh) and Spider-Man panels. They're stylized in a way that conveyes motion and the Ms. Marvel is not really as cheesecake fanservice-ish as women are generally portrayed.

The problem comes when these things are taken to extremes such as the Catwoman picture.

Sep 8, 2012#53

HowDroll

Sep 8, 2012#54

Bowielee

HowDroll said:

I find it ironic how large the artist drew Black Widow's breasts in that picture.

Sep 8, 2012#55

HowDroll

He's clearly a boob man.

Sep 8, 2012#56

Espy

Who is she supposed to be punching in the original picture? Air Man?

Sep 8, 2012#57

LittleSin

Espy said:
Who is she supposed to be punching in the original picture? Air Man?

I think they are trying to hi-light her bracer. In the comics it shoots stuff...though I odn't remember it doing that in the movie.[DOUBLEPOST=1347146695][/DOUBLEPOST]

This just came across my tumblr dash. Ugh.

Sep 9, 2012#58

PatrThom

LittleSin said:
Me @ Everything else: Holy shit...is she made out of silly putty?

No, she's probably just highly cartilagenous. You know, like a shark.

--Patrick

Sep 9, 2012#59

ThatNickGuy

HowDroll said:
We can rename this to "Why HowDroll Doesn't Read Comics: The Thread."

There ARE good comics out there that do women justice.

Sep 9, 2012#60

Cajungal

Norris said:
This Justice League Cover:

From the amount of skin she's showing to the look on her face to her pose, Wondy just looks insanely out of place. In the name of "sexiness".

Plus it looks like she's about to floss with her rope for some reason.

Sep 9, 2012#61

drifter

The things that strike me the most with that Justice League cover is that Wonder Woman looks so young, like she's barely out of her teens. I mean really, give her blonde hair and she'd look like a little pixie. It looks especially out of place given how craggy all the dudes faces are.

Sep 9, 2012#62

HowDroll

ThatNickGuy said:
There ARE good comics out there that do women justice.

Oh, I'm sure! I just don't have the inclination to wade through the misogynistic crap to find them

I have the same issues with a lot of anime, which my boyfriend is really into. I have nothing against the people who do enjoy those things, but when I personally try to read/watch them (and this goes for a great many superhero movies as well), it usually leads to long, overblown third-wave feminist rants at the people in my immediate vicinity. Nobody wants to listen to that shit.

Sep 9, 2012#63

drifter

Re:anime, maybe you two could give Noitamina shows a shot? They tend to be a lot better about that stuff compared to most anime. You could share your boyfriend's interests without wanting to claw your eyes out. Although, it's not a given; Hataraki Man was pretty good, Black Rock Shooter... not so much.

Sep 9, 2012#64

Yoshimickster

Noitinama, I freakin love that company! Tatami Galaxy is probably one of the greatest short animated series I've seen from Japan in years.

The entire ecchi subgenre in Japanese animation gets very grating at times. Especially since much of the time said fan-service is completely unnecessary.

Sep 9, 2012#65

HowDroll

We tried watching Eden of the East, and I couldn't get into it. I'll have to ask him if there are any other Noitamina shows he's interested in

There's been a few anime shows I've liked -- Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood probably being my favorite -- but there's been a lot more I've given up on after a few episodes. I'm optimistic about Death Note, though, which is apparently what we're watching next.

Sep 9, 2012#66

Norris

Seems relevant, via Our Valued Customers:

Sep 9, 2012#67

drifter

HowDroll said:
We tried watching Eden of the East, and I couldn't get into it. I'll have to ask him if there are any other Noitamina shows he's interested in

There's been a few anime shows I've liked -- Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood probably being my favorite -- but there's been a lot more I've given up on after a few episodes. I'm optimistic about Death Note, though, which is apparently what we're watching next.

It's not an action show, but I think Moyashimon is pretty fun... just puttin' it out there.

Though apparently the 2nd season is total butt.

Sep 9, 2012#68

Bowielee

I watched the most mysogenistic/cheesecake anime this week. High School of the Dead (or damned, I can't remember which). It was just plain terrible. Not only is it yet another zombie story, but holy crap there were so many cheap breast butt and prominent camel toe shots. I thought I was watching Hentai.

Sep 9, 2012#69

Yoshimickster

Bowielee said:
I watched the most mysogenistic/cheesecake anime this week. High School of the Dead (or damned, I can't remember which). It was just plain terrible. Not only is it yet another zombie story, but holy crap there were so many cheap breast butt and prominent camel toe shots. I thought I was watching Hentai.

Damn straight! Apparently the artist for that actually did do straight up porn before this. Not...not a surprise at all. Also the 26 year old nurse looks the same damn age as the high school students which I find stupid as all hell.

Sep 9, 2012#70

Tress

Bowielee said:
I watched the most mysogenistic/cheesecake anime this week. High School of the Dead (or damned, I can't remember which). It was just plain terrible. Not only is it yet another zombie story, but holy crap there were so many cheap breast butt and prominent camel toe shots. I thought I was watching Hentai.

I felt the same way. I tried to watch it, and I made it about 1 minute in. Then some girl trips while running up stairs, and the view zooms focuses on a cheap panty-shot. I had the same reaction - what is this, hentai? - and decided to turn it off. Not worth my time.

Sep 9, 2012#71

Norris

Bowielee said:
I watched the most mysogenistic/cheesecake anime this week. High School of the Dead (or damned, I can't remember which). It was just plain terrible. Not only is it yet another zombie story, but holy crap there were so many cheap breast butt and prominent camel toe shots. I thought I was watching Hentai.

Just reminded me: Gurren Lagann is a damn good show. That said, the main female character's design is re-goddamned-diculous in its fan-servicey-ness.

Sep 9, 2012#72

Yoshimickster

Norris said:
Just reminded me: Gurren Lagann is a damn good show. That said, the main female character's design is re-goddamned-diculous in its fan-servicey-ness.

Yeah Yoko was an all-right character but what was up with her clothes? Is showing a lot of skin a good idea when your in a friggin' desert? Also apparently she is supposed to be 14 in the beginning. Noooooooooooo.

Sep 10, 2012#73

GasBandit

The RULES are "hot redheads wear little to nothing," and "when in doubt, see rule 1."

Question the rules at your peril!

Sep 10, 2012#74

Gusto

GasBandit said:
Question the rules at your peril!

...any questions?

Sep 10, 2012#75

GasBandit

Gusto said:
...any questions?

Watch your step, my evil minion. You presume too much. One of these days, you'll go too far.

Sep 10, 2012#76

Terrik

GasBandit said:
The RULES are "hot redheads wear little to nothing," and "when in doubt, see rule 1."

Question the rules at your peril!

Just gleaming with sweat

Sep 10, 2012#77

North_Ranger

Terrik said:
Just gleaming with sweat

*clicks spoiler*

Sep 10, 2012#78

Yoshimickster

Well I have my reason to go blind today.

Sep 10, 2012#79

WasabiPoptart

There goes breakfast.

Sep 10, 2012#80

Telephius

Yoshimickster said:
Well I have my reason to go blind today.

And I thought carrots were good for the eyes...I guess maybe not the tops of them, can someone get Yoshimickster a pic of Carrot Bottom to reverse the blindness. :devil:

Sep 10, 2012#81

evilmike

Catwoman #0, take 2

Sep 11, 2012#82

AshburnerX

It's better, but not by much. It still looks like she's doing a 90 degree angle with her back.

Sep 11, 2012#83

Yoshimickster

At least it looks like an actual logical action pose for her character.

Sep 11, 2012#84

Bowielee

She still has impossible boobs, though. Actually, the first version has better anatomy as it was ONLY her boobs that were at an impossible angle. This time, it's her entire upper torso.

Sep 11, 2012#85

AshburnerX

At least she's fucking zipped up.

Sep 11, 2012#86

Yoshimickster

It does look like her upper half is a bit bent doesn't it? And of course lets not forget:

Her hips look REALLY off to me. Its just weird.

Sep 11, 2012#87

Gusto

Speaking of "broken hips" pictures, this Miss Fortune splash art from League of Legends ALWAYS bothers me.

[DOUBLEPOST=1347384753][/DOUBLEPOST]And is far less sexy than her Mafia skin:

Sep 11, 2012#88

Yoshimickster

Dear lord it looks like her torso is about to fall off. And yeah her mafia skin does look a lot better.

Sep 11, 2012#89

Gusto

The good news is that Riot is starting to "redo" a lot of their splash art for the older characters. My main, Ryze was updated recently.

Sep 11, 2012#90

GasBandit

I hate the new Gangplank art.

Before:

After:

Worst. Little. Hat. Ever. And they even updated his in-game model to match. Yuck. But I guess at least they got his navel hair under control.[DOUBLEPOST=1347388106][/DOUBLEPOST]Oh, and news has just come down that Miss Fortune has gotten new artwork, too.

Sep 11, 2012#91

Yoshimickster

That is how you get back problems Miss Fortune.

Sep 11, 2012#92

sixpackshaker

Sorry.

Sep 11, 2012#93

Ravenpoe

In defense of the gaga, I don't think that was ever intended to be sexy. She likes to parody the fashion industry.

Sep 11, 2012#94

sixpackshaker

But they took the image on the right and photoshopped the shit out of it to make the image on the left.

Sep 11, 2012#95

Ravenpoe

sixpackshaker said:
But they took the image on the right and photoshopped the shit out of it to make the image on the left.

Oh, that's what that's showing.

Well then, yes. That's terrible.

Sep 11, 2012#96

Yoshimickster

I find it ironic how one of Gaga's themes is being proud in how beautiful you are and yet she digitally alters herself. Also her voice over on the Simpsons sucked.

Sep 11, 2012#97

LordRendar

Do you mean her voice or the picture? Because if it is the picture I dont think she has much say on how Vogue will "upgrade" her pictures.

Sep 11, 2012#98

GasBandit

LordRendar said:
Do you mean her voice or the picture? Because if it is the picture I dont think she has much say on how Vogue will "upgrade" her pictures.

I think he might also be referring to her videos which routinely use special effects to distort how she looks.

To say nothing of the pounds of makeup, wigs, and costume-er-ry.

Sep 11, 2012#99

ThatNickGuy

Honestly GasBandit, I prefer the newer pirate picture to the older one. It's much simpler in design. The other was just ridiculously overdesigned. I don't see the problem with that hat at all. In fact, the "before" picture looks worse.

Sep 11, 2012#100

GasBandit

ThatNickGuy said:
Honestly GasBandit, I prefer the newer pirate picture to the older one. It's much simpler in design. The other was just ridiculously overdesigned. I don't see the problem with that hat at all. In fact, the "before" picture looks worse.

Well, I suppose that's just because you're wrong and awful and have never shivered a single timber in your life.

Sep 11, 2012#101

ThatNickGuy

GasBandit said:
Well, I suppose that's just because you're wrong and awful and have never shivered a single timber in your life.

Or it could be that I've seen my fair share of stupidly overdesigned comic book, movie, and video game characters that try to do too much when you can do a lot more with a lot less.

Sep 11, 2012#102

GasBandit

ThatNickGuy said:
Or it could be that I've seen my fair share of stupidly overdesigned comic book, movie, and video game characters that try to do too much when you can do a lot more with a lot less.

Ye scurvy lubbers took me larger-than-life pirate captain an' be givin' me the homeless vagrant of the seas, by blood and thunder.

Sep 11, 2012#103

ThatNickGuy

u mad, matey?

Sep 11, 2012#104

Necronic

Completely unrealistic curves here

What, is she made of jelly?

Absurd dimensions, no woman looks like this. wtf tiny hands

Fanservice Nipple Shot (kind of NSFW)

Sep 11, 2012#105

Cajungal

You know, it's not comics, but I saw some ridiculous shit on thechive.com. Someone linked me there, and in their "random afternoon pictures" are pages and pages of girls flaunting underboob or thongs for whatever reason. A lot of them end up looking more pathetic than sexy. I get it. You want attention. Go call your dad, for Chrissake.

Sep 12, 2012#106

Yoshimickster

GasBandit said:
I think he might also be referring to her videos which routinely use special effects to distort how she looks.

To say nothing of the pounds of makeup, wigs, and costume-er-ry.

Mostly on the appearance yes. Especially how I'm pretty sure they scrunch her face in a lot of those videos since her face looks different from appearance to appearance. Its very subtle changes but they are there. And I was also mocking how I personally didn't like her episode on the Simpsons. I don't know, I just feel she didn't emote as well as she should have in my opinion. The songs were all-right, but her straight up dialogue just sounded like she didn't care.

Sep 12, 2012#107

Gilgamesh

GasBandit said:
There's also this one which has been in a previous thread on the subject:

It led to people trying to imitate the pose.

They're doing it wrong:

Sep 12, 2012#108

Cajungal

Her posture isn't the same either. Her back isn't arched the same way, and her shoulders aren't as far back.

Sep 12, 2012#109

Gilgamesh

It's really darn close.

Sep 12, 2012#110

LittleSin

They changed the shooting angle for the picture. Her foot is out further, hanging a bit off the side of the couch. Her head is tilted naturally, wistfully instead of trying to look over her shoulder. Her back is not arched. Her arms aren't tucked in the nigh impossible way under her boobs. She is also not using her other leg as a seat.

It only looks the same on a 'at a glance' level.

In other words, they are cheating a bit.

Sep 12, 2012#111

Gilgamesh

Yeah, a bit. Like I said, close enough.
Drawings can't always be 100% but this one wasn't as exaggerated as the other -posers- were making it out to be.

Sep 12, 2012#112

LittleKagsin

I actually kind of think that recreation is fabulous. The took something that looks silly and inhuman, made it into something that's real. She's purty.

Thanks for posting Gilgamesh!

Sep 12, 2012#113

LittleSin

Oh, she is beautiful and it looks great.

It still doesn't justify the original though.

Sep 12, 2012#114

Gusto

Cartoons, man.

Sep 12, 2012#115

LittleKagsin

I'm pretty sure Gilgamesh is simply pointing out that it can be re-created and look awesome. Not that the original is justified cause it's not by any means.

Sep 12, 2012#116

checkeredhat

What bothers me most about that picture is the perspective. The horizon is shifting all over the place, and some of the objects two vanishing points are on completely different planes.

The camera is sloped, but even still the vanishing points don't even all align the same way.

Edit: I forgot to pit in the other vanishing point for the newspaper on the coffee table. It's much higher up.

Sep 12, 2012#117

sixpackshaker

Even as thin as the real girl is... her waist is not thinner than her elbows...

Sep 13, 2012#118

Yoshimickster

Someoen actually thought....it was a good idea...to have the black character....dress up in tribal clothing. Totally not racist at all!

Sep 13, 2012#119

GasBandit

Hey at least she isn't carrying a spear.[DOUBLEPOST=1347574627][/DOUBLEPOST]I'll give 20 bucks to any chick who personally demonstrates this is not a physical impossibility.

Sep 13, 2012#120

Yoshimickster

UGH! My spine hurts just looking at her!

Sep 13, 2012#121

AshburnerX

GasBandit said:
Hey at least she isn't carrying a spear.

The middle parts of RE5 have loads of villagers in grass skirts chasing after you, some of which hide behind shields and throw spears at you. It's really, REALLY awkward to see it happening.

Sep 14, 2012#122

Yoshimickster

Uggggggggggggggh. I cannot believe with something like that they are able to make a sequel afterwords. This should've been the franchise killer. Course if Japan has proven themselves of anything they are capable of making incredibly racist things profitable. Just look at Street Fighter 2! And don't say it isn't because it is.

Sep 14, 2012#123

Bowielee

Sep 14, 2012#124

Gusto

Welcome to 2008!

Sep 14, 2012#125

Yoshimickster

Yeah yeah, I know its an old complaint but Japan still makes some really sketchy race/nationality based characters even today. Not saying America is any better historically but still.

Sep 14, 2012#126

ThatGrinningIdiot!

Sorry Yoshimickster, but I don't think Sheva dressed in tribal clothing can be considered racist.

Sep 14, 2012#127

Yoshimickster

Its not that offensive, but its still just a bit offensive. Not saying its like that black-face mascot that I think Toei had, but its on the borderline.

Edit: No wait it was Takara. It was called Dakko-chan.

All-right let's switch back to sexy stuff:

Sep 14, 2012#128

ThatGrinningIdiot!

Yoshimickster said:
Its not that offensive, but its still just a bit offensive. Not saying its like that black-face mascot that I think Toei had, but its on the borderline.

Sheva's heritage, culture, and ancestry are African. I don't see anything offensive about her adorning the traditional garments of her people.

Now if Chris were wearing those, well that would be offensive on so many levels. . . . . >.>

Sep 14, 2012#129

Yoshimickster

Yes...that would be creepy. But what makes it kind-of offensive is like if feels like its forcing that this character is African. We could see that all-ready. But like I've said its not that bad so lets just drop it.

Now this isn't the worst drawing I've seen of Supergirl's waist but its still kind-of bad. Why is her waist-line drawn so horribly some times?

Sep 14, 2012#130

Norris

Yoshimickster said:
Its not that offensive, but its still just a bit offensive. Not saying its like that black-face mascot that I think Toei had, but its on the borderline.

Edit: No wait it was Takara. It was called Dakko-chan.
All-right let's switch back to sexy stuff:

Except Japan doesn't have the same cultural baggage as America does. Holding other countries to our standards is not exactly fair. Black, white, hispanic, it's all just funny looking foreigners to Japan.

Sep 14, 2012#131

Ravenpoe

Yoshimickster said:
Yes...that would be creepy. But what makes it kind-of offensive is like if feels like its forcing that this character is African. We could see that all-ready.

It's only offensive if you think she should be offended for being called African. It's quite a but different than if a black American was drifted in the same way, as that portrays an entirely different intent, specifically towards someone that has never been to Africa.

It's no different than an English character shown wearing a bowler hat with the union jack, or maybe dressed as a chimney sweep.

Sep 14, 2012#132

Yoshimickster

Norris said:
Except Japan doesn't have the same cultural baggage as America does. Holding other countries to our standards is not exactly fair. Black, white, hispanic, it's all just funny looking foreigners to Japan.

This is true, they don't have the crushing liberal guilt we've grown to have.

Ravenpoe said:
It's only offensive if you think she should be offended for being called African. It's quite a but different than if a black American was drifted in the same way, as that portrays an entirely different intent, specifically towards someone that has never been to Africa.

It's no different than an English character shown wearing a bowler hat with the union jack, or maybe dressed as a chimney sweep.

Indeed, I guess as long as its not like they are acting full on stereotypically insulting.

Sep 14, 2012#133

AshburnerX

Except that's not what she wears during the game... it's a bonus costume. She actually wears this most of the time.

You know... because she's with the Anti-BOW task force and needs things like pockets?

Is the leopard print racist? I don't want to say it is, but when you combine it with the spear throwing guys in grass skirts (which stand out because everyone else is wearing normal clothing), it's the most embarrassing depiction of Africa I've ever seen in a video game. The spear throwing guys used to be normal people too! Apparently the virus made them "devolve" and "take up the ways of their ancestors". It's just an all around clusterfuck and I blame it on the devs being Japanese and not really understanding the implications of what they wrote. Sort of like when they depict all Americans as 6'2", blond, and eating hamburgers.

Sep 14, 2012#134

BananaHands

Damn, Sheva is kind of hot, except when SHE USES ALL OF MY HEALING ITEMS.

Sep 14, 2012#135

Yoshimickster

Does it make sense for her to wear tight-pants in such heat? It looks kinda hot in the area there in in the game. If I were wearing pants like that in that heat I'd get a sweat rash like nobodies business. And trust me, I am fully learned in wearing tight pants. Not for fashion reasons of course, I just haven't bought new pants in while.

Sep 14, 2012#136

AshburnerX

If the options are "wear skin tight leather pants" or "expose flesh to infected villagers, snakes, and other vermin", you damn well better believe I'd wear skin tight pants.

Sep 14, 2012#137

Yoshimickster

Good point. Her arms are still exposed though, is that a good idea? I assume its for maneuverability reasons(and to show off more skin to fan-boys) but that is an open spot for said vermin. Also sun-burn, as the area I've said looks very very hot. Unless sun-lotion is something you need in the game, I haven't gotten that far.

Sep 14, 2012#138

AshburnerX

Chris is just as guilty of showing of his guns, considering the roid freak he is. So yeah, it's fan service.

Sep 14, 2012#139

Yoshimickster

Chris as well should cover the hell up. Sheva and Chris are trained soldiers, they should know better. Well...unless you play single player than only Chris is the trained soldier because Sheva is apparently an idiot.

Sep 14, 2012#140

ThatGrinningIdiot!

Yoshimickster said:
Chris as well should cover the hell up. Sheva and Chris are trained soldiers, they should know better. Well...unless you play single player than only Chris is the trained soldier because Sheva is apparently an idiot.

It's hot in Africa, I wouldn't be covering up anymore than I had too. Traveling light, and carrying only what you need in any extreme enviroment is a must.

Sep 14, 2012#141

Yoshimickster

ThatGrinningIdiot! said:
It's hot in Africa, I wouldn't be covering up anymore than I had too. Traveling light, and carrying only what you need in any extreme enviroment is a must.

Yes but keep in mind the sun is in full focus over there so sun-burn out the wazoo. Both Chris and Sheva seem to have fair skin so they should cover up their arms and wear some damn sun-hats. And they don't have to be tight sleeves, loose sleeves would do. Plus I don't remember either of them putting on sun-lotion on in the game. Yes there are zombies everywhere, but that doesn't mean you should forget to apply the proper precautions.

Sep 14, 2012#142

Azurephoenix

I'm all for realism in games (hell I actually play Arma 2 for crap sake!)... but having to worry about sunburn in a resident evil game seems... superfluous.

Sep 14, 2012#143

Yoshimickster

I'd actually think it would be a nice touch. Give an extra survival element to the game. Course that's just me.

Sep 14, 2012#144

AshburnerX

Azurephoenix said:
I'm all for realism in games (hell I actually play Arma 2 for crap sake!)... but having to worry about sunburn in a resident evil game seems... superfluous.

I still think the Infection counter from RE: Outbreak File 1 and 2 should have been kept for the rest of the games.

Sep 14, 2012#145

Azurephoenix

AshburnerX said:
I still think the Infection counter from RE: Outbreak File 1 and 2 should have been kept for the rest of the games.

I'll be honest I never played those games... but assuming the infection counter does what I think it does it seems like a reasonable mechanic to have kept.

Sep 14, 2012#146

AshburnerX

Azurephoenix said:
I'll be honest I never played those games... but assuming the infection counter does what I think it does it seems like a reasonable mechanic to have kept.

Yes, it does. In the context of Outbreak, having a full 100% of infection meant you died and came back as a zombie. You could then move around as a zombie, break down doors, and basically try to kill the other players for not being there when you needed them. They could kill you to put you down permanently, but if someone was a zombie, the whole group had already fucked up hard.

Sep 20, 2012#147

PatrThom

Yoshimickster said:
Someoen actually thought....it was a good idea...to have the black character....dress up in tribal clothing. Totally not racist at all!

When did Prince get so tall?

--Patrick

Sep 20, 2012#148

Norris

PatrThom said:
When did Prince get so tall?

--Patrick

Hey now. Prince didn't have boobs like that. He had a cute ass though.

Sep 21, 2012#149

Jay

Norris said:
Hey now. Prince didn't have boobs like that. He had a cute ass though.

Sep 26, 2012#150

GasBandit

Sep 27, 2012#151

linglingface

This may have already been posted, but I'm too lazy to check right now.

http://goodcomics.comicbookresource...ale-superheroes-see-how-the-other-side-lives/

Sep 28, 2012#152

LittleSin

That Cyclops in Emma Frost's costume almost undid me.

Sep 28, 2012#153

Covar

heatherling said:
This may have already been posted, but I'm too lazy to check right now.
http://goodcomics.comicbookresource...ale-superheroes-see-how-the-other-side-lives/

Cosmic Boy has worn much worse. And Hercules's costume is far more revealing and impractical than Wonder Woman's.

Sep 28, 2012#154

Frank

That's what I was thinking in that Hercules pic.

How are his boots any less impractical than anything Wonder Woman wears?

Sep 28, 2012#155

Gilgamesh

ERMAGAWD GAIZ, WIMMEN R SUBJECTIFID! WAI DUNT U GED ID?!

Sep 28, 2012#156

Espy

...Are people really using Hercules stupid costume to discredit a comedic take on the ridiculous costumes women tend to wear in comic books?

Sep 28, 2012#157

Gilgamesh

Espy said:
...Are people really using Hercules stupid costume to discredit a comedic take on the ridiculous costumes women tend to wear in comic books?

I can produce plenty of other options if you like.

Sep 28, 2012#158

Espy

Maybe I missed the part where someone said that only women can wear objectifying clothing but I don't think I did...

Sep 28, 2012#159

Gilgamesh

Espy said:
Maybe I missed the part where someone said that only women can wear objectifying clothing but I don't think I did...

I didn't say you said that, I was simply giving your more options to discredit a comedic take on ridiculous costumes women tend to wear in comic books.

For the record, I'm well aware it's much more an issue with women than it is for men, but complaining about objectified women in comics is like complaining there aren't enough naked women in Playgirl.

Sep 28, 2012#160

Espy

I don't understand why it needs to be discredited. Makes me wonder if people know what the point of this thread is... because that post fits perfectly. And despite what some seem to think, it doesn't appear to me to be some kind of uber-feminist statement, although it certainly raises the objectification issue through comedy. Defending that objectification is just... hard for me to understand.

Sep 28, 2012#161

Gilgamesh

Espy said:
I don't understand why it needs to be discredited. Makes me wonder if people know what thread this is...

Because much like the -Honest- Avengers trailer, when something tends to be non-factual, people who know it's non-factual no longer find it amusing.

Sep 28, 2012#162

Covar

If you're going to present a case you should at least do it right. Yes Alfred the Butler's outfit is not as over the top as Zatanna, a stage musician. That does nothing to prove the point of all super-hero comics are sexist (which lets be honest is what the argument is).

Sep 28, 2012#163

Espy

Man you reply fast Gil.

Now I'm really confused, what is "non-factual" about this and the avengers thing?[DOUBLEPOST=1348841417][/DOUBLEPOST]

Covar said:
That does nothing to prove the point of all super-hero comics are sexist (which lets be honest is what the argument is).

Was that the point?

Sep 28, 2012#164

sixpackshaker

Nearly every comic book hero is sexually objectified. Even Supes, Bats, and Spidey are basically drawn naked, and then just colored to look like they have clothes on...

Sep 28, 2012#165

Gilgamesh

Espy said:
Man you reply fast.

Now I'm really confused, what is "non-factual" about this and the avengers thing?

That we should dress up male superheros in skimpy/ridiculous outfits so that they know how it feels! That's hilarious! ---- Non-factual due to there being male characters in skimpy ridiculous outfits already. One of them being in the very parody itself (Hercules)

The -Honest- Avengers trailer failed to be funny due to a number of points being non-factual.

In comedy, jokes are usually funny when they're based in reality, bordering on stereotypical so that people can relate and be amused. IE: Isn't it funny how men do this and women do that? Isn't it funny how black people do this and mexican people do that? If a comedian were to come out and say -Isn't it hilarious how Black people love haggis?- noone would relate it to something factual and the joke would fail.

Sep 28, 2012#166

Espy

Uh. Alright.

Sep 28, 2012#167

Gilgamesh

Espy said:
Uh. Alright.

If the joke had simply been about how skimpy and stupid some comic book women's outfits are, I'd have been right there agreeing and laughing. The way they spinned it fell flat.

Sep 28, 2012#168

Frank

Espy said:
...Are people really using Hercules stupid costume to discredit a comedic take on the ridiculous costumes women tend to wear in comic books?

No, they had Hercules wearing Wonder Woman's outfit. I thought it was an odd choice for the joke.

Maybe the joke was super meta. Like Hercules, one of the most impractically dressed male heroes thinks that Wonder Woman, one of the most impractically dressed female heroes dresses impractically.

Sep 28, 2012#169

Covar

Seeing the lack of Legion fans here, I would like to present Cosmic Boy's worst costume ever.

[DOUBLEPOST=1348841905][/DOUBLEPOST]

Frank said:
No, they had Hercules wearing Wonder Woman's outfit. I thought it was an odd choice for the joke.

Another bad one was Batman and Huntress. Of course using the three Batgirl costumes and Batwoman's would only result in a re-coloring.

Sep 28, 2012#170

Espy

I think the joke was that it was funny to see guys dressed in the ladies outfits not a treatise on feminism. I think you guys might be over-thinking it.

Sep 28, 2012#171

Gusto

Comedy thread is serious business.

Sep 28, 2012#172

Espy

No shit right?

Sep 28, 2012#173

sixpackshaker

I wanna see Wonder Woman in Hercules's costume. :awesome:

Sep 28, 2012#174

LittleKagsin

sixpackshaker said:
Nearly every comic book hero is sexually objectified. Even Supes, Bats, and Spidey are basically drawn naked, and then just colored to look like they have clothes on...

I'm so bummed because I have the perfect gif in my head as a response to this. But when I looked, I couldn't find this gif - I don't think it exists. And since I'm at work, I can't make it happen.

Just know that I agree with this.

Sep 28, 2012#175

evilmike

Is it wrong to think the most disturbing thing is that Hercules is complaining because he normally goes commando?

Sep 28, 2012#176

AshburnerX

Gilgamesh said:
For the record, I'm well aware it's much more an issue with women than it is for men, but complaining about objectified women in comics is like complaining there aren't enough naked women in Playgirl.

The objectification of women in comics isn't JUST a comics issue, but a pervasive social view in all forms of media. Fuck, it's not even that it's women facing most of the objectification. It's that there is objectification period.

Also, it's an entirely different situation when musclebound guys wear tight or revealing attire than it is when women do the same, because when men do it it's still playing into male fantasy (in this case a power fantasy, not a sexual one). A silly costume doesn't change the fact that those guys are still built like they could lay out a dude just by slapping him.

Sep 28, 2012#177

Covar

LittleKagsin said:
I'm so bummed because I have the perfect gif in my head as a response to this. But when I looked, I couldn't find this gif - I don't think it exists. And since I'm at work, I can't make it happen. Just know that I agree with this.

I know what gif you're talking about, and I too couldn't find it. I did find the original page.

Sep 28, 2012#178

LittleKagsin

Ah, broken image! Noooo!

Sep 28, 2012#179

sixpackshaker

But, it is a sexy, broken image.

Sep 28, 2012#180

Covar

I hate how the red X objectifies letters. Also fixed.

Sep 28, 2012#181

Frank

Sarcasm doesn't work on the interwebs. I should know this by now.

Sep 28, 2012#182

Espy

Frank said:
Sarcasm doesn't work on the interwebs. I should know this by now.

I'm gonna be frank with you.

Sep 28, 2012#183

Frank

No, no one is frank but Frank.

Sep 28, 2012#184

Covar

Can I be Espy?

Sep 28, 2012#185

sixpackshaker

Can I be Kags?

wait, wut?

Sep 28, 2012#186

Espy

Frank said:
No, no one is frank but Frank.

Sep 28, 2012#187

sixpackshaker

For a guy that never looked good, he looks good for his age...

Sep 28, 2012#188

tegid

sixpackshaker said:
Nearly every comic book hero is sexually objectified. Even Supes, Bats, and Spidey are basically drawn naked, and then just colored to look like they have clothes on...

Nope. Besides Ashburner's post dealing with this, I recommend reading the article that originated the comments on which originated those drawings:
http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2012/02/21/she-has-no-head-no-its-not-equal/

Really the costumes are only symptomatic. Tha latest wonder woman comic is an excellent example (as pointed in that article). She has the somewhat ridiculous costume (just like men, if you want to see it that way), but no ridiculous anatomy or sexual objectification. She comes off as a strong character type, not an inflatable doll on aventures to save the world.[DOUBLEPOST=1348845688][/DOUBLEPOST]I know I'm sooo late here. Sorree :oops:

Sep 28, 2012#189

Gilgamesh

There's alot I want to say here but between work and phone calls I'm a bit stuck so I'll just simplify it.

I disagree with Ash/Tegid on my previous statement and it's just that simple. You see objectifying of the opposite sex depending on the outlet. IE: Comics = Women (The majority of the clients are straight male) and Romance Novels = Men (Majority of the clients are straight women)

Sep 28, 2012#190

GasBandit

Here's the Gif you were looking for. It's been on gasbanditry.com for a while.

Dec 2, 2012#191

figmentPez

Some days I love Tumblr. For instance: The Hawkeye Initiative

link

link

I'm laughing too hard to post more, but there is a lot of hilarity.

Dec 2, 2012#192

Espy

Oh wow. That is so awesome.

Dec 2, 2012#193

figmentPez

I'm still laughing:

link

Dec 2, 2012#194

bhamv3

I was mildly amused until I got to "caw caw" and then I was in stitches.

Dec 2, 2012#195

GasBandit

From that same site - not sexy but still rofl

estifi:

So my friend was talking about the Chanukah episode of Rugrats today… so I decided to watch it.
I saw this, and decided to look up what מוהל meant.
It’s a circumcizer… someone who performs circumcisions… and apparently this one offers them at a “cut rate”…..
OH MY GOD

Dec 2, 2012#196

Bowielee

Imagine of male superheros' penises were accentuated the same way that women's boobs were in comics. I think then people would understand how ridiculous the disparity is.

Dec 2, 2012#197

bhamv3

Bowielee said:
Imagine of male superheros' penises were accentuated the same way that women's boobs were in comics. I think then people would understand how ridiculous the disparity is.

I just imagined a male superhero having a "crotch window" analogous to Power Girl's outfit.

Dec 2, 2012#198

Ravenpoe

Bowielee said:
Imagine of male superheros' penises were accentuated the same way that women's boobs were in comics. I think then people would understand how ridiculous the disparity is.

I don't think that's really an accurate comparison, but we can both agree it's overboard.

Dec 2, 2012#199

Bowielee

I really don't see it much different than women having their tits hanging out.

Dec 2, 2012#200

Gilgamesh

Bowielee said:
I really don't see it much different than women having their tits hanging out.

There's a bit of a difference between genitals and tits.

I see the equivalent of a woman showing cleavage as a guy showing off his abs. They get the same reactions from both parties (That's so hot! Just a little bit more!)

Dec 3, 2012#201

HowDroll

Gilgamesh said:
There's a bit of a difference between genitals and tits.

I see the equivalent of a woman showing cleavage as a guy showing off his abs. They get the same reactions from both parties (That's so hot! Just a little bit more!)

Yeah, I hate when comics objectify men.

Dec 3, 2012#202

Ravenpoe

HowDroll said:
Yeah, I hate when comics objectify men.

Comics objectify everyone. But due to a long history of juvenile artists and writers, the objectification of women in comics is much more blatant, especially contrasted against the lack of strong (or even well written) female characters.

Dec 3, 2012#203

Bowielee

Here's a good cosplay example of how stupid a man looks in the same pose and costume Black Widow is usually portayed with.

The best look at what it would be if the situation was reversed is the guy who cross-plays Power Girl. He has it spot on how it would be if the gender roles were reversed.

(found a pic)

Dec 3, 2012#204

Gilgamesh

Bowielee said:
The best look at what it would be if the situation was reversed is the guy who cross-plays Power Girl. He has it spot on how it would be if the gender roles were reversed.

(found a pic)
View attachment 9142

Exactly, he's showing off his abs as Power Girl shows off her cleavage.

HowDroll - I never said they didn't objectify women/poses are stupid for women characters in comics, I'm denying that: Cleavage = Dick lines

It's:
Cleavage = Abs
Camel Toe = Cock Bump

Dec 3, 2012#205

Bowielee

Now imagine that all male superheroes had costumes like that, and they were constantly in poses that thrust their crotch or ass at the reader. That's pretty much what it's like for women being represented in comics.

Dec 3, 2012#206

Gilgamesh

Bowielee said:
Now imagine that all male superheroes had costumes like that, and they were constantly in poses that thrust their crotch or ass at the reader. That's pretty much what it's like for women being represented in comics.

Again, I'm not arguing that women are not objectified in their poses or costumes. I agree with that. Just don't equvilate Cleavage as extremely as you do.

Dec 3, 2012#207

Bowielee

It's also an issue that's become more pronounced as time has gone on. Even Emma frost's original costume is absolutely puritan compared to what she now wears.

Let's take a look at Psylocke:

Original costume:

Current costume:

Or Rogue

Original Costume:

Current costume:

Dec 3, 2012#208

bhamv3

I would venture to suggest boobs are more sexualized body parts than abs.

But, really, I think debating this is basically splitting hairs.

Dec 3, 2012#209

Frank

There's no real defending it. Comic creators just seem to know who their main audience is now, the same people they are, sad adult males.

Dec 3, 2012#210

Gilgamesh

bhamv3 said:
I would venture to suggest boobs are more sexualized body parts than abs.

But, really, I think debating this is basically splitting hairs.

Boobs yes. Cleavage no.

Bowielee - Yep. Sucks. Some guys have the same issue with costumes. Nowhere near as much as women, but it exists.

Dec 3, 2012#211

Frank

Yeah, but the male character's costumes are definitely more of a male's ideal power fantasy than female fantasy. Both are for their targeted audience.

Dec 3, 2012#212

Gilgamesh

Frank said:
Yeah, but the male character's costumes are definitely more of a male's ideal power fantasy than female fantasy. Both are for their targeted audience.

But but but, crotch cleavage shots!? It's only fair!

Dec 3, 2012#213

Bowielee

This whole thing is basically becoming a looming elephant in the room with geek culture which in the past has been predominantly straight white men. As our culture becomes more diverse, the audience for this stuff is extending beyond just straight white males to gays, people of color, and women. Because of this, the inherent misogyny, homophobia and racism of geek culture is really being called into question.

Dec 3, 2012#214

CynicismKills

Misogyny I can understand, but racism and homophobia? I can't say I run into that anywhere but online, which isn't exactly a shining beacon of morality to start with.

Also, guys in that "Power Girl-esque" costume do exist, Namor's been darting around in his Speedo for years and the current Thor villain is a buff Voldemort in a thong.

In the long run it's still a male-dominant industry, I think one of the guys on Comic Book Men put it best in saying (paraphrased) that even though Disney and Marvel have created these iconic characters, nobody wants to run around pretending to be Goofy or Pluto, they want to be Spider-Man or Wolverine.

As for more modest costumes on women, weren't a bunch of folks here fairly unimpressed with Wonder Woman's brief stint in a jacket and pants instead of a corset and hot pants?

Dec 3, 2012#215

Bowielee

I was referring to geek culture. In comics it's mostly the misogyny, but in other aspects such as gaming, etc... homophobia and racism used to be very prominent. Things are changing, but very slowly. The reason these things are coming to light now is because when it was just straight white males consuming this culture, these issues were largely just part of "business as usual" thus why so many critical eyes have been cast on geek culture and the way it interacts with people outside of the usual paradigm.[DOUBLEPOST=1354533350][/DOUBLEPOST]Also, read the article listed on the previous page. It specifically addresses the Namor issue. Long story short. Namor has character motivation to dress like that, as does Emma Frost because it's part of their characters. Namor is vain, lives under water, and is nigh indestructible. He wouldn't see any reason to cover himself up and as he is also a notorious womanizer, he would also be likely to flaunt his body. As would Emma as she unapologetically uses her sexuality to get what she wants. It makes sense for her character. What's the character motivation for Wonder Woman to be wearing a thong bikini to fight crime?

Dec 3, 2012#216

AshburnerX

Bowielee said:
Here's a good cosplay example of how stupid a man looks in the same pose and costume Black Widow is usually portayed with.

View attachment 9141

The image is funny, but the catsuit AND the work books together makes it ridiculous. Well done.

CynicismKills said:
Misogyny I can understand, but racism and homophobia? I can't say I run into that anywhere but online, which isn't exactly a shining beacon of morality to start with.

That's a scene where someone basically trigger's Bruce Banner's Hulk transformation by (intentionally) pointing out how kinda "gay" the Hulk/Bruce Banner is. Mind you that this was in an Ultimate Universe comic, but it really does show you that at least one artist (because he drew it) and one writer (because he wrote it) were perfectly willing to believe that Bruce Banner, an adult scientist at the top of his field, wouldn't be able to deal with the fact that someone called him gay.

Dec 3, 2012#217

Frank

That is written by Mark Millar though...so you know, maturity of a 12 year old.

Dec 3, 2012#218

Espy

I would also argue that depending on the situation and character it's not bad for them to show homophobia if they are using it not to say gay=bad but rather, hey, this person has some issues.

Dec 3, 2012#219

fade

I'm not going to argue that there isn't a split in how women and men are portrayed in comics. That pretty much speaks for itself. My devil's advocate question is simply, "Why should they not pander to the fantasies of their primary audience?" It's good business, no matter how uncomfortable it makes you. No matter how unbalanced its portrayal of women and men.

You know what I would also find interesting? A survey of male comic readers who grew up with these books. Let's find out how many of them associated any of these characters with real humans. I know I didn't. This was a comic book drawing. I'm pretty sure even as a child I never expected women (or men) to look or act like that, any more than I expected to actually win the Dark Lord's ring from a fish-eating degraded hobbit by asking it a question that wasn't technically a riddle. Never saw either in real life, and knew the difference. I bring this up not to defend the lack of strong female physical portrayals in the comics, but to argue against the use of the word "misogyny". That's a very strong word, on a whole different level. It implies hatred. I don't think there's some hidden hatred here--just comic writers and artists who think of themselves as the primary consumers, and also like big boobs.

Dec 3, 2012#220

@Li3n

AshburnerX said:
Bruce Banner, an adult scientist at the top of his field, wouldn't be able to deal with the fact that someone called him gay.

If Banner was as well adjusted as you assume him to be there'd be no Hulk, just a radioactive scientist corpse.

EDIT:

Not to say that comics don't have a problem with how they portray women...

Also, Rictor...

Dec 3, 2012#221

Bowielee

fade said:
I'm not going to argue that there isn't a split in how women and men are portrayed in comics. That pretty much speaks for itself. My devil's advocate question is simply, "Why should they not pander to the fantasies of their primary audience?" It's good business, no matter how uncomfortable it makes you. No matter how unbalanced its portrayal of women and men.

You know what I would also find interesting? A survey of male comic readers who grew up with these books. Let's find out how many of them associated any of these characters with real humans. I know I didn't. This was a comic book drawing. I'm pretty sure even as a child I never expected women (or men) to look or act like that, any more than I expected to actually win the Dark Lord's ring from a fish-eating degraded hobbit by asking it a question that wasn't technically a riddle. Never saw either in real life, and knew the difference. I bring this up not to defend the lack of strong female physical portrayals in the comics, but to argue against the use of the word "misogyny". That's a very strong word, on a whole different level. It implies hatred. I don't think there's some hidden hatred here--just comic writers and artists who think of themselves as the primary consumers, and also like big boobs.

The objectification of women is pretty much the textbook definition of misogyny.

The issue is that in the changing cultural view, it's actually BAD business to cling to the traditional portrayal of women in comics. Especially with comic book movies making more people interested in the medium. This alienates an entire group of potential customers.

Also http://www.unheardtaunts.com/wir/

Dec 3, 2012#222

Gilgamesh

Bad business to keep their current audience, that has keep their medium alive, so that they can appeal to a much smaller audience (someone who happened to watch the movies that suddenly wants to read the books)? I fail to see how that works.

Dec 3, 2012#223

Bowielee

Gilgamesh said:
Bad business to keep their current audience, that has keep their medium alive, so that they can appeal to a much smaller audience (someone who happened to watch the movies that suddenly wants to read the books)? I fail to see how that works.

So, you're saying that the broad comic book audience are such knuckle dragging neanderthals that they'd rather have boobs in their face than quality storytelling that can appeal to everyone?[DOUBLEPOST=1354553060][/DOUBLEPOST]Also, women make up a much larger portion of the population than you seem to think.

Dec 3, 2012#224

Gilgamesh

Bowielee said:
So, you're saying that the broad comic book audience are such knuckle dragging neanderthals that they'd rather have boobs in their face than quality storytelling that can appeal to everyone?

Dec 3, 2012#225

figmentPez

Gilgamesh said:
Bad business to keep their current audience, that has keep their medium alive, so that they can appeal to a much smaller audience (someone who happened to watch the movies that suddenly wants to read the books)? I fail to see how that works.

They aren't keeping their audience. Comic book sales are continuing to shrink. They need to appeal to a broader audience, or they're going to go under.

Dec 3, 2012#226

Gilgamesh

figmentPez said:
They aren't keeping their audience. Comic book sales are continuing to shrink. They need to appeal to a broader audience, or they're going to go under.

I'm simply stating that I personally thing that the people who prefer their comic heroines they are now is larger than the audience that is suddenly turned on to comics because of the new media but decides against it because some chick has some massive cleavage in the contents.

Dec 3, 2012#227

fade

I understand that this is a commonly used usage of the word misogyny, but it's that common usage that I'm objecting to--as DA again, to be clear. I haven't seen a strong case for the hatred implied by the dictionary definition of the word. Where's the hatred in objectification? I feel like I can take issue with objectification without resorting to calling the objectifiers "haters', because to me, that's extremely strong.

Dec 3, 2012#228

figmentPez

Gilgamesh said:
I'm simply stating that I personally thing that the people who prefer their comic heroines they are now is larger than the audience that is suddenly turned on to comics because of the new media but decides against it because some chick has some massive cleavage in the contents.

And I'd argue that it's more than a black and white issue. This isn't just about if someone makes an immediate decision based on "boobs", but the level of commitment they have, and the ease of which they can spread their fandom to those around them. If new readers have hesitations about fully committing to comics because of the objectification of women, and feel like they have to hide their reading of comics (i.e. "I can't read this on the bus with that on the cover") then comics will have a harder time growing an audience and enticing new readers, as well as retaining existing readers. Even if it's not the only deciding factor, it is still an issue.

Dec 3, 2012#229

Bowielee

To objectify is to dehumanize, to dehumanize is to stop seeing someone as a person but a thing. Dehumanizing someone is one of the most hateful things that can be done and by encouraging it, it DOES harm women as a whole by portraying them as objects, rather than people.

Misogyny encompasses a larger concept than the base definition. Just as homophobia may literally mean the fear of gay people, but also encompasses the hatred of them as well.

Dec 3, 2012#230

Bowielee

Objectify- "to treat as an object"

If you're assessing someone as a whole person, you're doing the opposite of objectifying them, you're humanizing them.[DOUBLEPOST=1354554658][/DOUBLEPOST]hrm... deleted post

Dec 3, 2012#231

fade

sorry, I was rewording it, because I anticipated the wrong reaction would happen.[DOUBLEPOST=1354555519][/DOUBLEPOST]Again, this is for the fun of the argument, but do we hate Einstein? He's been reduced to nothing but his smarts. He's become an objectified symbol of intelligence, and nothing more. What do any of us know about him aside from his big brain?

Dec 3, 2012#232

MindDetective

Einstein hated wearing socks.

Dec 3, 2012#233

@Li3n

Bowielee said:
The objectification of women is pretty much the textbook definition of misogyny.

No, pretty sure objectification of women is a result of misogyny. I mean i could easily just objectify everyone, men and women, and not be a misogynist, but a misanthrope .[DOUBLEPOST=1354555704][/DOUBLEPOST]

MindDetective said:
Einstein hated wearing socks.

But loved having his ex-lover and cousin wash them...

Dec 3, 2012#234

Bowielee

@Li3n said:
No, pretty sure objectification of women is a result of misogyny. I mean i could easily just objectify everyone, men and women, and not be a misogynist, but a misanthrope .[DOUBLEPOST=1354555704][/DOUBLEPOST]

But loved having his ex-lover and cousin wash them...

Dec 3, 2012#235

GasBandit

@Li3n said:
I mean i could easily just objectify everyone, men and women, and not be a misogynist, but a misanthrope .

You say that, but it's not as easy as it looks.

Dec 3, 2012#236

figmentPez

fade said:
Again, this is for the fun of the argument, but do we hate Einstein? He's been reduced to nothing but his smarts. He's become an objectified symbol of intelligence, and nothing more. What do any of us know about him aside from his big brain?

Yes, we do hate Einstein if we reduce him to his intellectual achievements and nothing more. Generally that's not the case, though. We have a movie about him playing matchmaker. We get to see his goofy side in the famous photo of him sticking out his tongue. His struggles in early life and work as an under-appreciated file clerk are often mentioned alongside his mathematical success. You can argue that what we know of Einstein is more myth than man, but he's not dehumanized in media depictions. His depiction in pop culture is more than just math smarts. Unfortunately many women in comics are simply sex symbols, or solely exist to give men motivation.

Dec 3, 2012#237

Gilgamesh

figmentPez said:
Yes, we do hate Women if we reduce them to their physical features and nothing more. Generally that's not the case, though.

Exactly.

Dec 3, 2012#238

figmentPez

Gilgamesh said:
Exactly.

I'd say that all too often comic books reduce women to their sexuality, though not simply to physical features. Many characters dress, actions, speech, etc. are all aimed towards being "sexy". While I think many female characters have times when they have been written with depth and humanity, there are also far more cases when they're not used as anything more than "look how sexy she is fighting crime."

Compare that to nerds in general in pop culture, not Einstein in particular. Though there has been a recent trend of "nerd is the new cool", that wasn't always the case. It used to be that, more often than not, science types were mostly bit characters, useful but often two-dimensional. When they were more fleshed out, they were socially awkward and often their dialog was spouting a lot of facts and figures to show how intelligent they are. Reducing them to have intelligence as their defining trait is dehumanizing scientsts/nerds, and it is a form of hatred. There have always been exceptions where men can be scholars and more, but that doesn't change that when a cardboard cutout scientist is propped-up on-screen, that's a small sliver of nerd-hate. Do that often enough for a pattern to emerge, and those slivers add up. It's the same with the depiction of women as nothing but sex-objects, or mostly off-screen motivation for the male heroes.

Dec 3, 2012#239

Azurephoenix

I hear the word "hatred" thrown around here a lot. It must mean something different than what I currently think it does.

Dec 3, 2012#240

figmentPez

Azurephoenix said:
I hear the word "hatred" thrown around here a lot. It must mean something different than what I currently think it does.

Hate:
to dislike intensely or passionately; feel extreme aversion for or extreme hostility toward; detest: to hate the enemy; to hate bigotry.

To me portraying a whole class of people in such a fashion that they are consistently dehumanized is an act of extreme aversion and hostility.

Dec 3, 2012#241

Azurephoenix

Do you honestly think that the artists drawing these comic book women feel an extreme aversion or extreme hostility towards women?

Dec 3, 2012#242

figmentPez

Azurephoenix said:
Do you honestly think that the artists drawing these comic book women feel an extreme aversion or extreme hostility towards women?

Some certainly do, at least an extreme aversion to the idea of women as actual people. Liking the fictional concept of what you think "women" should be is completely different from actually liking women. Have you read some of Frank Miller's notes on how he wants the women drawn in what he writes?

source

That's instructions on how to draw Vicki Vale in All Star Batman & Robin #1, reviewed here by Atop the Fourth Wall, where Linkara points out just why that scene is so sexist. Ms Vale has been reduced to someone to swoon over the male heroes, and for readers to lust after. I honestly think that shows an aversion to actual women.

Dec 3, 2012#243

CynicismKills

Frank Miller is batshit insane, he's not a great example.

Dec 3, 2012#244

Azurephoenix

I'm really just arguing semantics here as I agree with your main points... I just feel that "hatred" and "hate" get thrown around far too much in things where they really aren't applicable.

When I think of hate I think of hating things like child murderers, rapists and genocide.

Dec 3, 2012#245

fade

Azurephoenix hit the point I was getting at. I had written something similar but deleted it. To be perfectly clear, I do not like the treatment of women by comic writers and artists, but I don't think it represents hatred. I think that requires a conscious intense dislike on the part of the artist, as in the case of sexism. I might accuse them of being socially irresponsible or childish or even stupid, or tell them that what they're doing may make women fell small or degraded, but I don't think we can assume dislike on the part of the artist enters into it.

Dec 3, 2012#246

figmentPez

I don't think hatred has to be explicit to be hatred, nor do I think it has to be on some grand level either. If someone can't stand to have a pickle even sitting on their plate at some point, they hate pickles. They don't have to think pickles killed their baby sister, they have an extreme aversion and that is hate. As to being explicit, someone can deny hating something while still holding hatred. Say someone says "Oh, I don't hate dogs, I just can't stand the way they walk around on all fours, and how they poop on the ground, and just a single bark drives me nuts." Yeah, they don't mind dogs at all as long as they walk on two legs, never poop and never bark, they're fine with dogs that don't act like dogs. It doesn't matter how much they deny it, or what absurd qualifiers they make, if they can't stand to be around dogs acting like normal dogs, then they hate dogs.

Dec 3, 2012#247

fade

Well, I don't think an artist needs an extreme aversion to women to draw them as sexualized. Though I am very confused by the juxtaposition of an "extreme" aversion and not on a grand level. Your dog example is still explicit to me. Because they're still intentionally and knowingly expressing dislike. It's just with conditions. I don't think that figures into these artists. They're showing ignorance and lack of consideration for another's feelings (which is still bad), not dislike. I can easily imagine an artist who treats absolutely every woman in his life with respect, but then draws his characters as pinups because he's a) drawing what he finds sexually attractive without considering the social impact of it, and b) because it's a fictional character he created out of ink and paper, and not connected in his mind to a real woman--especially not the way it might be to a female reader. This is not, of course to condone his actions, just to explain them.

I can pull an anecdotal piece of evidence from my own life. I certainly don't hate women. But I never considered even once that the use of "he" as the genderless pronoun would come across to women readers as offensive, as if the author was not talking to them. I was ignorant of the situation, and I was perpetuating it. But my wife explained it to me, it made perfect sense, and I fixed it. Didn't change my attitude toward women, because I didn't do it originally out of hate.[DOUBLEPOST=1354573842][/DOUBLEPOST]Let me be clear once again, because I have enough experience with HF now. This is mostly a semantic argument over the word "hate". I don't want to hijack, because the examples are what they're supposed to show. No argument there, and it's a good thing to bring to light.

Dec 3, 2012#248

@Li3n

Bowielee said:
But loved having his ex-lover and cousin wash them...

Click to expand...

Because that's obviously not a condemnation of a guy being an asshole to female relative...

GasBandit said:
You say that, but it's not as easy as it looks.

Yeah Gas, it's really hard to not think of you as human... :rolleyes:

Dec 3, 2012#249

GasBandit

@Li3n said:
Yeah Gas, it's really hard to not think of you as human...

I didn't realize I was everyone.

Dec 3, 2012#250

Azurephoenix

fade said:
Let me be clear once again, because I have enough experience with HF now. This is mostly a semantic argument over the word "hate". I don't want to hijack, because the examples are what they're supposed to show. No argument there, and it's a good thing to bring to light.

This is my position too and I think I'll just leave it at that.

Dec 4, 2012#251

@Li3n

GasBandit said:
I didn't realize I was everyone.

Actually you're slightly better at thinking them most... you know, when you actually bother.

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