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So Explain This To Me.....

#1

Shegokigo

Shegokigo

I'm in line at the convenience store, with my smokes and some drinks when I see something that floors me. A lady (dressed down would be speaking too highly of how she looked) with two snot nosed kids (they actually had snot trails from their nose to their mouths) holding gobs of junk food. Sodas, hot cheetos, candy bars, while the mother had a fat pack of Bud Light. She puts it all on the counter when it's her turn, requests $20 in lottery/scratch offs, then proceeds to whip out her Food Stamp card.

Un-freakin-believable. She spent over $40 cash on Beer + Lottery tickets and dropped another $30 on junk food on her food stamp card.

So explain this to me: In Texas there's a program called "WIC" which gives food vouchers to needy families with very strict rules on what can be purchased (healthy, nourishing foods). Yet a food stamp card is just basically "here's some money you can blow on anything you can shove in your pie hole, so feel free to spend any actual income on bullshit card". WHY IS THERE NO STRICT LIMITS ON THE FOOD STAMP CARD?

I guess the rant is two-fer. One, I'm blown away at how much this lady is abusing the system, two her kids probably haven't had a real meal cooked for them in god knows how long.


#2

sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

I am not up on The Lone Star card. But you may want to give the state a call. I am pretty sure that you can't buy beer on it. So the convenience store is likely the ones robbing us.


#3

Shegokigo

Shegokigo

No, she bought the beer and lottery tickets with cash. That was my point.


#4

Jay

Jay

I'll be brutally honest. There's a reason why she's on Food stamps... spending 30$ on junk food to "feed" her family is exactly what I expect for a large majority of those on that system.

Sure there's people who genuinely need it, like Russell Crowe's character in Cinderella Man but I fully expect a large chunk of the beneficiaries being fat lazy fucks who take advantage of the system.

You are correct though, there should be a better system for that, you shouldn't be able to afford to dump 40$ on beer/lottery tickets.


#5

phil

phil

I thought food stamps could only be applied to foods that had some kind of nutritional value, like basically the types of foods that aren't taxed. If that's true or not, though especially if that's true, I think too many foods applied to that "nutritional value" litmus test. Donuts are like one notch above actual poison, but still apply.


#6

AshburnerX

AshburnerX

The only real, hard rule that I've seen regarding Food Stamp cards is that you can't use them on hot food (basically so you can't use them on fast food). All this means is now gas stations and super markets carry cold sandwiches, sushi, boneless wings, pizza and other prepared stuff to circumvent the requirement.


#7

LittleKagsin

LittleKagsin

phil said:
I thought food stamps could only be applied to foods that had some kind of nutritional value, like basically the types of foods that aren't taxed. If that's true or not, though especially if that's true, I think too many foods applied to that "nutritional value" litmus test. Donuts are like one notch above actual poison, but still apply.
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Thats more like WIC. WIC checks have very specific foods listed on them and are generally more on the healthy side, and are more 'bare bones'. Like you can get milk and bread and things like that. You also only get them once a month.

I'm pretty sure with food stamps, you have to meet certain requirements, but after that, they don't moniter what you purchase with them. It's a free for all.


#8

strawman

strawman

As we've been using the system ourselves recently I've been amazed at a number of things. Number one - we get way more money for food than we would normally budget. Our food stamps are easily twice what we would normally spend to feed our family. I suppose we could be considered to be somewhat frugal, but also the food stamp system is universal and doesn't vary based on cost of living, so here in the midwest where it's relatively cheap we get more food, effectively, than more expensive places.

Having also used WIC, there are some stark differences between the two programs - they really have different mandates. WIC is meant to provide a source of nutrition for children, and so they are allowed to specify foods that have high nutritional value. Food stamps aren't intended to provide specific nutritional value for growing children (and in fact if you qualify for one, you often qualify for the other if you have children and can get both benefits).

In chatting with my sister in law (getting her PHD in family sciences next year) she indicated that the gov't is in a bit of a bind legally. They can't tell people what to eat even if they are providing the funds to feed the people. Further, nutritious foods are more expensive in some ways - fresh meat, foods, and vegetables are healthier than their cheaper processed foods. So on top of being unable to tell people on the public dole how and what they can eat, they have to give them more money so that they can always get the fresh, non-processed food that may be more expensive in some areas.

The system is seriously screwed up, but it's designed this way due to all the various court rulings that have been made over the years about what the gov't can and can't do in providing food for people.

While I don't want to excuse this woman's actions, I found something interesting about my own situation:

While we couldn't afford to do the fun and nice things we wanted to, we could splurge on fun food we wouldn't normally buy. I specifically went to the store several times over the last year and a half and purchased just ice cream, toppings, etc so I could make a whole restaurant-style sundae bar for my kids. It's not exactly a trip to a theme park, but we had a blast doing that sort of thing. We couldn't afford to go to the movies, but my wife discovered General Mills had "specially marked boxes of cereal" where two boxes would give you a free movie ticket you could print out at home - nothing to send in. Over the next month or so she would scour the local stores for these boxes and we were able to take the kids to movies on their birthdays and so forth on food stamps - about 14 movie tickets total between last fall and this summer, so not a big deal, but it was using the food stamp system in a way it wasn't designed to do. Had to eat a lot more cheerios and cinnamon toast crunch than we were used to.

So I no longer begrudge people their treats when I see them using food stamps for stuff I would never normally buy.

I do feel there's a strong need for re-evaluation of the system. However there's no such thing as one-size-fits-all, and as many programs as I can think of, there's bound to be a group that suffers under it, and thus there's going to have to be a loophole, which others will slip through as well, and so forth. Right now it's pretty basic and simple.

A lot of people are taking advantage of it - but I don't know that there's a good solution that doesn't hurt more than it helps. Just last month the food stamp system in michigan changed - they now count certain assets, such as second homes and property, cars, and a few other things, in their calculations. So a number of rather well-off families who work the system will have a harder time keeping their benefits (what you do is create a corporation for the business you own, and pay yourself a very low salary, and then have the business cover your big expenses such as your car, travel, entertainment, healthcare, etc)

Coincidentally, my main client over the summer that wasn't paying me finally needed more work done, and of course had to pay up to date, so I won't be on food stamps very shortly. If my next few customers turn out to be better than my last few, we might actually be able to go on a trip next summer.

We'll have to give up the sundae bars, though - too expensive for a regular food budget...


#9

Dave

Dave

When we were on food stamps we didn't have a handy little card - we had brightly colored chits that we had to take from a little book. It was WAY obvious what they were due to it looking like Monopoly money. I was mortified every time I had to use them.

But we did spend more money on food when I had them than I do now, but we had small kids and everything for them was a damned necessity. My kids now can go without certain things, but young kids & babies can't always do that.

This lady was gaming the system but I wouldn't change a thing as it would punish those who need it legitimately.


#10

CrimsonSoul

CrimsonSoul

I'm currently on FS and my kids ar eon medicaid =/ but if/when I get my new job all of that will be a thing of the past and I can't friggin wait!
Added at: 22:57
Also cinnamon toast crunch is yummy!


#11

Tress

Tress

Jay is right. Sometimes people on government assistance are there because they are lazy and/or dumb. This woman sounds like she falls under that category. But as steinman and Dave pointed out, you can't change the system to prevent these kinds of abuses without screwing over the people who legitimately use it and need that help to get nutritious food.


#12

Shegokigo

Shegokigo

I dunno why they just can't expand the WIC program and kill the Food Stamp card. Makes sense to me.


#13



SeraRelm

The cards are more in use now because people would sell the stamps for cash. Seen it done hundreds of time. I've never used government assistance in this manner, even when I needed it, but I was only responsible for myself at the time. I still firmly believe that only people who -need- help should get help. Not irresponsible jack asses who want their free hand out because they have a much undeserved sense of entitlement.


#14

PatrThom

PatrThom

We would be on the program ourselves (grudgingly but thankfully) if only our income wasn't so high. It's not spectacular, but it's just high enough. Not that we get to keep any of it (debts, debts, debts), but because the tax forms say we make too much, we don't get assistance. This makes me upset at situations like the one you describe, but from a slightly different angle.

--Patrick


#15

blotsfan

blotsfan

SeraRelm said:
The cards are more in use now because people would sell the stamps for cash. Seen it done hundreds of time. I've never used government assistance in this manner, even when I needed it, but I was only responsible for myself at the time. I still firmly believe that only people who -need- help should get help. Not irresponsible jack asses who want their free hand out because they have a much undeserved sense of entitlement.
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I don't know how it works for you, but when I was a cashier, I had to check their ID in order to do a wic purchase.


#16



SeraRelm

What? ^
Was talking about Foodstamps.


#17



Chibibar

I am not sure what to say. I know that our fellow forumite use the system and there is nothing wrong with it. It is there when people need it, but it upsets me when people abuse the system that we all pay for.
I don't have answer/suggestion on what to do with people who abuse the system in short of being inhumane (i.e. ban certain people from the system if they abuse it)
Maybe the system should have a stricter purchasing right (i.e. maybe allow purchase of healthier frozen food and limit on certain junk food) I don't know :(


#18

CrimsonSoul

CrimsonSoul

I agree with what they are trying to do in Florida, but others are trying to get it blocked: Mandatory drug test for those on gov assistance, if you fail, no assistance for you!


#19

Azurephoenix

Azurephoenix

CrimsonSoul said:
I agree with what they are trying to do in Florida, but others are trying to get it blocked: Mandatory drug test for those on gov assistance, if you fail, no assistance for you!
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Didn't we already have a rather heated thread about that exact topic?


#20

CrimsonSoul

CrimsonSoul

if we did I wasn't paying attention


#21



Chibibar

CrimsonSoul said:
I agree with what they are trying to do in Florida, but others are trying to get it blocked: Mandatory drug test for those on gov assistance, if you fail, no assistance for you!
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While I agree to some extent, the problem with such a blanket statement is that there HAVE to be other system in place to help people in need.

(note: the following is speculation)
Most people believe that low income people may have drug issues. Ok, so you now denied their benefits, now what? they have no means to feed the kids or themselves which can cause different problem. Will there suppliment programs that will help these people get OUT of drug problem? (rehab is not cheap) will there be a system to help people while they are getting help?

Personally, I think there should be a "total program" type to help people with different needs and process them in the system to be productive citizens, BUT there should also be a culture change in terms of what if some people DON'T want to help themselves and just want to abuse the system. Now what? Send them off to an island to fend for themselves or die? jail time? labor camp? (most of these are illegal in many ways and culturally won't happen in the U.S.)


#22

Azurephoenix

Azurephoenix

CrimsonSoul said:
if we did I wasn't paying attention
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I believe it was here:



#23

blotsfan

blotsfan

SeraRelm said:
What? ^
Was talking about Foodstamps.
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Sorry that was unclear. I just meant that the stamps could have the name of the person who is supposed to receive the food so they would have to have ID in order to use them.


#24

AshburnerX

AshburnerX

CrimsonSoul said:
if we did I wasn't paying attention
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Yeah... I believe it basically boiled down to that no one really cared about the actual testing, but it wasn't going to save money once you factored in the cost of the testing and the company that got the testing contract was owned by the wife of the guy who proposed it. So in the end we all agreed it was just a scam and left it at that.


#25

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

SeraRelm said:
The cards are more in use now because people would sell the stamps for cash. Seen it done hundreds of time. I've never used government assistance in this manner, even when I needed it, but I was only responsible for myself at the time. I still firmly believe that only people who -need- help should get help. Not irresponsible jack asses who want their free hand out because they have a much undeserved sense of entitlement. the result of reproductive organs.
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Fixed.


#26

GasBandit

GasBandit

Quotemander Prime said:
Fixed.
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Because if there's one thing that's an indisputable truth, it's that human beings have absolutely no control over when, how and where they breed. Much like they can't be expected to not defacate in public or refrain from attacking those who approach their den without the right scent.


#27

Dei

Dei

blotsfan said:
I don't know how it works for you, but when I was a cashier, I had to check their ID in order to do a wic purchase.
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When I was on WIC for my first pregnancy/kid, they never bothered to check my ID. Ever. In fact, there were 2 different grocery chains in town, one that needed a manager to do WIC transactions and one that the cashiers could just do it themselves (I'm sure you know which one I chose to go to) and even with the manager doing it I never had to worry about it.


#28

blotsfan

blotsfan

Well then the government could make the penalties for not IDing wic/foodstamps the same as not IDing people that buy cigarrettes or alcohol.


#29

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

GasBandit said:
Because if there's one thing that's an indisputable truth, it's that human beings have absolutely no control over when, how and where they breed. Much like they can't be expected to not defacate in public or refrain from attacking those who approach their den without the right scent.
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Especially if they can just keep dropping them out in order to increase the free handout. It's amazing to me that people are so willing to game the system that they'll bring a life into the world just for an extra chunk onto their welfare.

Of course, I don't know what would be a solution. The last thing we need is a Indira Gandhi "castrate the poor" program running to the slums, projects, and trailer parks, or a China "one and you're done" family planning gang.


#30

Shegokigo

Shegokigo

Castrate the poor program? I like this idea. Where can I subscribe to your newsletter? Where does one sign up for the position of castrator? Oh who am I kidding, I wouldn't care if I got accepted or not, I'm liking this program more and more by the day I may just start an organization.


#31

GasBandit

GasBandit

Why stop at the poor? Sterilize the earth, I say.


#32

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

Shegokigo said:
Castrate the poor program? I like this idea. Where can I subscribe to your newsletter? Where does one sign up for the position of castrator? Oh who am I kidding, I wouldn't care if I got accepted or not, I'm liking this program more and more by the day I may just start an organization.
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India in the 70s, government vehicles went through neighborhoods for members of the Hindu lower castes, rounded them up, and performed mass sterilizations. Others were pulled off the streets and put into slave labor camps.


#33

GasBandit

GasBandit

Quotemander Prime said:
India in the 70s, government vehicles went through neighborhoods for members of the Hindu lower castes, rounded them up, and performed mass sterilizations. Others were pulled off the streets and put into slave labor camps.
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And then Indy and Short Round got there and messed everything up.


#34

Steve

Steve

Happens all the time. A friend of mine said he was behind a lady who paid with food stamps for her basket full of food then loaded them up in her Escalade. I live in Oklahoma and I've seen people pay for food with food stamps then buy smokes, beer and lottery tickets with cash, just like you mentioned. My father in law hires a lot of people like this to do odd and end jobs with his rent houses or his heating/cooling business. One of his workers (paid cash) gets food stamps. He has seven kids all under the age of 10. He said he'd never go get a payroll job because he'd lose too much money in assistance. His family gets low income housing, medical care (the two youngest kids have a lot of problems due to the fact the wife gets pregnant every year) and food assistance. It's frustration to us who do the right thing and have to put in 40 hours a week making an honest living while these clowns take advantage of the system.


#35



SeraRelm

I'm glad your father in law is helping them abuse the system.


#36

CrimsonSoul

CrimsonSoul

Food stamps go in crack heads come out, you cant explain that!


#37

Shegokigo

Shegokigo

Wow Crimson, that has to be the funniest post you've ever made. Seriously, that's practically SIG material! :D


#38

Mathias

Mathias

SeraRelm said:
I'm glad your father in law is helping them abuse the system.
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Wow, you're an asshole.


#39

Shegokigo

Shegokigo

Is she wrong?


#40

Mathias

Mathias

Shegokigo said:
Is she wrong?
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yes


#41

Shegokigo

Shegokigo

He's not helping them circumvate the income reporting system by paying them cash under the table so that he can report a lower income to receive government assistance? Because I'm pretty sure that's what was stated very clearly in her post.


#42

CrimsonSoul

CrimsonSoul

Yeah, I have to agree with Shego on this one


#43

PatrThom

PatrThom

I'm sure it's being done to avoid payroll taxes, not to make it easier for the employee to qualify for aid. Totally different departments.

--Patrick


#44



SeraRelm

Intended or not, it's assisting them in abusing the system. Doing so to abuse another system for his own profit doesn't make it better.


#45

Mathias

Mathias

SeraRelm said:
Intended or not, it's assisting them in abusing the system. Doing so to abuse another system for his own profit doesn't make it better.
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How in the hell is he "assisting" them? You make your own fucking choices in life.


#46

Shegokigo

Shegokigo

Seriously Mathias?

He's giving them cash under the table, knowing they use the pay to avoid tax reporting and loss of food benefits. How can you not realize such an easy concept. What does this have to do with "choices in life"?


#47

strawman

strawman

Well, since taxes are unconstitutional anyway, then it's all good.


#48

FnordBear

FnordBear

ug

Reading this thread reminded me of a few years ago being at the grocery store in line behind this family that primarily spoke Spanish getting pissed because the cashier couldnt run a few things (like beer and cigarettes) on their WIC card. After babbling at the cashier who didn't seem to understand a word of Spanish the father pulls out a WAD of $50 and $100 bills(seriously there had to be close to 5K cash in his pocket) and pays for the items and THEN argues over a $.04 discrepancy on the receipt in PERFECT English.

Shit like this makes me want there to be strict drug testing, income oversight, and other checks and balances for people on assistance.


#49

Bowielee

Bowielee

SeraRelm said:
Intended or not, it's assisting them in abusing the system. Doing so to abuse another system for his own profit doesn't make it better.
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I'm pretty sure it makes it worse.

Sorry, Mathias, but Sera and Shego are totally in the right here.

He is not only avoiding paying taxes he should be paying himself, but also contributing to their abuse of the system in a very clear way by offering them unreportable income.


#50

Dave

Dave

I had my car looked at by my mechanic. When I went to pay in cash he dropped the price for me. I asked why and he said since I was paying in cash he was knocking off the tax.

Great for him, great for me...but gaming the system nonetheless.

Yeah, the father-in-law is gaming the system for his own end, but the unintended consequence is that it's helping the other people game the system as well...an it's a much bigger system gaming than one transaction at a mechanic. What these people don't realize is that if they get hurt on the job, being paid in cash means they are not entitled to any sort of worker compensation coverage. So if they hurt then they're screwed.


#51

Espy

Espy

stienman said:
Well, since taxes are unconstitutional anyway, then it's all good.
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There are THREE things that are unconstitutional here:
1) Paying Taxes.
2) The System
and 3)... uh...
Uh...
The uh...




EPA?


#52



Chibibar

Dave said:
I had my car looked at by my mechanic. When I went to pay in cash he dropped the price for me. I asked why and he said since I was paying in cash he was knocking off the tax.

Great for him, great for me...but gaming the system nonetheless.

Yeah, the father-in-law is gaming the system for his own end, but the unintended consequence is that it's helping the other people game the system as well...an it's a much bigger system gaming than one transaction at a mechanic. What these people don't realize is that if they get hurt on the job, being paid in cash means they are not entitled to any sort of worker compensation coverage. So if they hurt then they're screwed.
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well in the U.S. you can still use emergency room and get help, then dodge the system (pretty easily from what I understand) and get free healthcare.


#53

Dave

Dave

Chibibar said:
well in the U.S. you can still use emergency room and get help, then dodge the system (pretty easily from what I understand) and get free healthcare.
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Uh...no. You would get the very much limited care - just enough to make sure you weren't going to die. Then they'd kick you out. And then the bills would start rolling in, the collection agencies would come after you and you'd be financially ruined and possibly even barred from getting a job.


#54



Chibibar

Dave said:
Uh...no. You would get the very much limited care - just enough to make sure you weren't going to die. Then they'd kick you out. And then the bills would start rolling in, the collection agencies would come after you and you'd be financially ruined and possibly even barred from getting a job.
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Heh, unless someone was using a random SS number to register (which someone did with my wife) and guess what? the bill was footed to US. luckily we were able to prove that my wife had never gotten any 25,000 emergency care and it went into "lost collection" since they got a fake name and my wife's SS to register during the emergency room.


#55

Krisken

Krisken

Great, so our advice is to go to the emergency room, use a fake social security number, and hope to high hell they survive the brink of death. Oh, and hope we don't get caught and sent to jail for it.

We have a great system there.


#56



Chibibar

Krisken said:
Great, so our advice is to go to the emergency room, use a fake social security number, and hope to high hell they survive the brink of death. Oh, and hope we don't get caught and sent to jail for it.

We have a great system there.
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So many loopholes that is for sure.


#57

Shegokigo

Shegokigo

Krisken said:
Great, so our advice is to go to the emergency room, use a fake social security number, and hope to high hell they survive the brink of death. Oh, and hope we don't get caught and sent to jail for it.

We have a great system there.
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What are they going to do? Sue you for the funds you have never claimed to have anyway? In a home that you're recieving from Government benefits? Or how about the food that you get from the government?

They have nothing to lose by doing that.


#58

Null

Null

In NJ, you can apply for "charity care" which means the state covers your medical bills, for one year. You have to prove that your income and total holdings are less than the state-calculated "poverty line", meaning you need to show them tax returns, bank statements, pay stubs, even get your HR department to say whether or not you have employee health insurance or to what degree you're covered. You can only apply once you've been billed for treatment. It's the only way I was able to afford my $21k Emergency Room treatment.


#59

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

Dave said:
Uh...no. You would get the very much limited care - just enough to make sure you weren't going to die. Then they'd kick you out. And then the bills would start rolling in, the collection agencies would come after you and you'd be financially ruined and possibly even barred from getting a job.
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Collection agencies can't do much to you except make it difficult for you to get a loan in the future. A lot of people in that situation don't really give a shit about that.


#60



makare

I have collection agencies calling me for my medical bills from my surgery. I tell them, SOMEDAY I will pay you. SOMEDAY I will, hopefully, be making good money. But as of right now.. does the phrase you cant squeeze blood from a stone mean anything to you!?


#61

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

makare said:
I have collection agencies calling me for my medical bills from my surgery. I tell them, SOMEDAY I will pay you. SOMEDAY I will, hopefully, be making good money. But as of right now.. does the phrase you cant squeeze blood from a stone mean anything to you!?
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I saw something on the news once about how to get them to have to pay you for breaking policy, like asking if they can garnish your wages. If they say yes:



#62



Chibibar

makare said:
I have collection agencies calling me for my medical bills from my surgery. I tell them, SOMEDAY I will pay you. SOMEDAY I will, hopefully, be making good money. But as of right now.. does the phrase you cant squeeze blood from a stone mean anything to you!?
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BTW, my comment is nothing against people who need the system. The system is in place to help people when needed. Food Stamps, government assistance in housing, medical, and emergency room are out there for people who REALLY need it and will pay back the system.

I have no doubt that people on this forum are using it (I have use some) and pay back (via getting a job and paying taxes) but there are people out there that abuse the system that was meant to do good. There are people who manage to circumvent all kinds of system and live better than we do :(


#63



makare

Yeah garnishment is a pretty detailed process. also balls that process.. BALLS.


#64

Mathias

Mathias

Shegokigo said:
He's not helping them circumvate the income reporting system by paying them cash under the table so that he can report a lower income to receive government assistance? Because I'm pretty sure that's what was stated very clearly in her post.
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How the father-in-law pays his employees is his business - most odds and ends part-time work is paid under the table tax free. You still have to report your total earnings to the government and "pay" for those wages. It benefits the father-in-law by not having to shell out outragious health care benefits costs etc...

How the fuck is he responsible for their actions on abusing welfare systems? He is in no way forcing these people to abuse the system. He stated in the post that the worker refuses any kind of work that's not under the table. Are you suggesting that all work should be reported to the government and taxed? All of it? Like a dude fixes your fence and you pay him a wage check? Are you retarded?

Like I said, people make their own choices. I hate this bullshit, nanny, blame the small business owner crap.


#65

GasBandit

GasBandit

Mathias said:
He stated in the post that the worker refuses any kind of work that's not under the table. Are you suggesting that all work should be reported to the government and taxed? All of it? Like a dude fixes your fence and you pay him a wage check? Are you retarded?
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Not that I necessarily agree with it, but yes, that is actually what the law requires, assuming the person in question makes more than $9000 a year total.


#66

PatrThom

PatrThom

You're already supposed to report that sort of "income." If you receive goods/services in exchange for goods/services (aka barter), you're still supposed to report the FMV of that so it can be properly taxed.

--Patrick


#67

Bowielee

Bowielee

Mathias said:
How the father-in-law pays his employees is his business - most odds and ends part-time work is paid under the table tax free. You still have to report your total earnings to the government and "pay" for those wages. It benefits the father-in-law by not having to shell out outragious health care benefits costs etc...

How the fuck is he responsible for their actions on abusing welfare systems? He is in no way forcing these people to abuse the system. He stated in the post that the worker refuses any kind of work that's not under the table. Are you suggesting that all work should be reported to the government and taxed? All of it? Like a dude fixes your fence and you pay him a wage check? Are you retarded?

Like I said, people make their own choices. I hate this bullshit, nanny, blame the small business owner crap.
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Again, in this case, it's very much the small business owner's fault. People wouldn't even be able to game the system in the way described if people refused to hire these people off the books and pay them under the table. He is DIRECTLY contributing to their ability to skirt the system.


#68

Mathias

Mathias

Bowielee said:
Again, in this case, it's very much the small business owner's fault. People wouldn't even be able to game the system in the way described if people refused to hire these people off the books and pay them under the table. He is DIRECTLY contributing to their ability to skirt the system.
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Uh, no they choose to skirt the system themselves.


#69

Shegokigo

Shegokigo

Noone's arguing "choice" we're saying they "are".


#70

Null

Null

Mathias said:
Uh, no they choose to skirt the system themselves.
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And by paying them cash without keeping records of it, he's enabling them to do so much more easily than if his records indicated that they were in fact being paid.


#71



Chibibar

Mathias said:
How the father-in-law pays his employees is his business - most odds and ends part-time work is paid under the table tax free. You still have to report your total earnings to the government and "pay" for those wages. It benefits the father-in-law by not having to shell out outragious health care benefits costs etc...

How the fuck is he responsible for their actions on abusing welfare systems? He is in no way forcing these people to abuse the system. He stated in the post that the worker refuses any kind of work that's not under the table. Are you suggesting that all work should be reported to the government and taxed? All of it? Like a dude fixes your fence and you pay him a wage check? Are you retarded?

Like I said, people make their own choices. I hate this bullshit, nanny, blame the small business owner crap.
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The blame is not solely on the business owner, but all small business contribute to the system as a whole.

By law, we are SUPPOSE to report all income. The best way to do it is pay via checks/direct deposit. That way there is a system to track and will out W-2. BUT since cash are involved, there are two folds of this situation.

1. Your FiL can avoid paying SS tax, Medicare, and other taxes when doing wages (I know this cause my Mom is paying them for her workers) Paying cash is not easily trace and can be put under business lost or something. UNLESS your dad IS filing all the taxes and just pay cash (which is ok)

2. The person receiving the cash suppose to report income. Tips for example, are suppose to be reported. This will raise your income bracket and may have to pay taxes (if you get a lot of cash tips) of course with CC charges, it is harder to avoid reporting tips (I did it when I was younger to avoid paying tax on them)

It is a loophole. People do it all the time to save money since Taxes do not generate profit directly (actually to small business it is a lost)


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