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PHILADELPHIA - The owner of a famous cheesesteak shop did not discriminate when he posted signs asking customers to speak English, a city panel ruled Wednesday.

In a 2-1 vote, a Commission on Human Relations panel found that two signs at Geno's Steaks telling customers, \"This is America: WHEN ORDERING 'PLEASE SPEAK ENGLISH,'\" do not violate the city's Fair Practices Ordinance.

Shop owner Joe Vento has said he posted the signs in October 2005 because of concerns over immigration reform and an increasing number of people in the area who could not order in English.
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Vento has said he never refused service to anyone because they couldn't speak English. But critics argued that the signs discourage customers of certain backgrounds from eating at the shop.

Commissioners Roxanne E. Covington and Burt Siegel voted to dismiss the complaint, finding that the sign does not communicate that business will be \"refused, withheld or denied.\"

In a dissenting opinion, Commissioner Joseph J. Centeno said he thought the signs did discourage some customers.

\"The sign appeared immediately above another sign that had the following words: 'Management Reserves the Right to Refuse Service,'\" Centeno wrote.

New immigrants in Italian neighborhood
Geno's and its chief rival across the street, Pat's King of Steaks, are two of the city's best known cheesesteak venues. A growing number of Asian and Latin American immigrants have moved into the traditionally Italian neighborhood in recent years.

Vento had threatened to go to court if he lost. His attorney, Albert G. Weiss, said he was \"pleasantly surprised\" by Wednesday's decision.

\"We expected that this was not going to go our way,\" Weiss said.

In February 2007, the commission found probable cause against Geno's for discrimination, alleging that the policy discourages customers of certain backgrounds from eating there.

The case went to a public hearing, where an attorney for the commission argued that the sign was about intimidation, not political speech. The matter then went to the three-member panel for a ruling.

W. Nick Taliaferro, the commission's executive director, said he would not appeal.

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I actually went to eat at this place the other day and saw the sign. I gotta say I agree with it.

Speak English mothersmurfer!

Makes perfect sense to me. Dealing with the language barrier at work is such a difficult ordeal. Tourists I can understand, but non-English speaking residents are downright frustrating.

I'd feel more comfortable if the "Speak English when ordering" part wasn't prefaced with "This is America," but yeah it makes sense to me too. Can't expect the staff to know Italian and Spanish and Chinese etc.

Speak English mothersmurfer!

bhamv3 said:

I'd feel more comfortable if the "Speak English when ordering" part wasn't prefaced with "This is America," but yeah it makes sense to me too. Can't expect the staff to know Italian and Spanish and Chinese etc.

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The restaurant is located right by a Mexican neighborhood, so Geno gets pissed when they come to his place and start ordering in Spanish. This actually happened when I was in line for a sandwich there. He pointed to the sign and the dude didn't get what was going on. Finally after some talking to his friend, the guy starts ordering in broken English. That's how you learn to speak another language! It wasn't a matter of the guy not understanding or not being able to speak English. He pretty much expected everyone else to know Spanish because it's easier for him!

Speak English mothersmurfer!

I continue to be amazed by happening upon whole households who speak no English at all. We'll get called for Various Unknown Emergency, and when we get there, someone will be speaking Haitian Creole at us, and... well, it's certainly not a language you take in high school, so we all do alot of pointing and charades and pantomime, and of course you've always got that one guy who speaks LOUD English-
"Ed- he can't understand loud English either..."
"Well he said he doesn't speak English!"
"Yeah- that's probably the only phrase he knows besides 'Which way to the bathroom?' ya know?"


We can't exactly put that sign up though. Of course, there are a good number of native English speakers I'd like to hold that sign up for as well!

Speak English mothersmurfer!

bhamv3 said:

I'd feel more comfortable if the "Speak English when ordering" part wasn't prefaced with "This is America," but yeah it makes sense to me too. Can't expect the staff to know Italian and Spanish and Chinese etc.

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While English isn't the 'official' language, it might as well be. My parents and grandparents learned to speak English back in the 70's somehow. These lazy fucks can learn too. I friggin' hate how everything is catered towards Spanish speaking individuals anymore. Where's the Polish option on the phone for my great-grandma? If you cater to one language you should pamper all of them...

Speak English mothersmurfer!

Chazwozel said:

If you cater to one language you should pamper all of them...

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Nah, if you cater to one language, you should cater to the one spoken by the group that's going to be the majority in this country in the not-so-distant future.

It amazes me how someone can come from Mexico, be here for 20 years, and not learn English. And then someone can come from Africa, and I imagine Fulani is far more removed from English than Spanish is removed from English, and learn the language in 3 years.

Speak English mothersmurfer!

Charlie Dont Surf said:

Chazwozel said:

If you cater to one language you should pamper all of them...

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Nah, if you cater to one language, you should cater to the one spoken by the group that's going to be the majority in this country in the not-so-distant future.

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That's what they say... Spanish is still not going to be the business language of the world.

Speak English mothersmurfer!

Slightly Offtopic

Pats > Genos

Speak English mothersmurfer!

Gadzooks said:

Slightly Offtopic

Pats > Genos

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Speak English mothersmurfer!

escushion said:

Gadzooks said:

Slightly Offtopic

Pats > Genos

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Touche good sir

I'm Flemish, my opinion on language issues is supposed to be ignored.
That said, I fullly agree with the sentiment of the owner :-P

Bubble181 said:

I'm Flemish, my opinion on language issues is supposed to be ignored.
That said, I fullly agree with the sentiment of the owner :-P

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Quiet, you Flemer.

escushion said:

Bubble181 said:

I'm Flemish, my opinion on language issues is supposed to be ignored.
That said, I fullly agree with the sentiment of the owner :-P

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Quiet, you Flemer.

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ta geulle :-P

Speak English mothersmurfer!

How can someone live in USA and not learn the language? My english is not the best of the world but I learned by myself just watching television and playing videogames. I never had a conversation in english in my whole life.

Speak English mothersmurfer!

I wish my store would post a sign like that. I have assholes getting in my face at least several times a day if we don't have someone who speaks Spanish (although it's happened with quite a few Polish-speakers too, Chaz ) at their beck and call. I'll usually tell them that someone will get to them when they get to them, and 50-60% of the time, they end up getting impatient and talking to me in broken but perfectly passable English anyway. As long as this country makes it easy for them to remain ignorant of its dominant language, they're never going to learn to speak English. "Press 1 for English" my ass.

It's up to the person in the foreign country to at least try and learn the language and culture. That's common sense and decency.

HOWEVER, it's none of my business if a company wants to include other languages on its product or in its store. That would just be good business sense on their part. Even though doing something the guy in the OP did is just as good. Freedom of Speech, and different ways to run your business. Life is dandy!

Speak English mothersmurfer!

escushion said:

It amazes me how someone can come from Mexico, be here for 20 years, and not learn English. And then someone can come from Africa, and I imagine Fulani is far more removed from English than Spanish is removed from English, and learn the language in 3 years.

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That's because Mexican people are lazy?

Speak English mothersmurfer!

That's because Mexican people are lazy?[/quote]

lolWUT

Speak English mothersmurfer!

Puedo ver porqué el hablar en otra lengua puede ser difícil. Mucho algo intentaría aprender la lengua materna cuando visitar otro país entonces que intenta inglés de la fuerza adentro deja para decir Japón. Además, pienso que intentando aprender otra lengua es fresco. Todavía no soy bueno en él sin embargo.

Speak English mothersmurfer!

SeriousJay said:

escushion said:

It amazes me how someone can come from Mexico, be here for 20 years, and not learn English. And then someone can come from Africa, and I imagine Fulani is far more removed from English than Spanish is removed from English, and learn the language in 3 years.

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That's because Mexican people are lazy?

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It's not going to be Shego lurking in the shadows ready to shank you in a dark alley

It'll be Calleja

escushion said:

That's because Mexican people are lazy?

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I'm not lazy, I'm just a master at conserving energy!

escushion said:

It amazes me how someone can come from Mexico, be here for 20 years, and not learn English. And then someone can come from Africa, and I imagine Fulani is far more removed from English than Spanish is removed from English, and learn the language in 3 years.

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No kidding, one of my trainers at depot was African. He spoke perfect English and his name literally began with two clicks of the tongue when spoken correctly.

Darn immigrants.

Speak English mothersmurfer!

I don't have a problem with it, but I do feel like the sign could be a little more polite...

also I don't like 'THIS IS 'MERICA'

Speak English mothersmurfer!

Charlie Dont Surf said:

Chazwozel said:

If you cater to one language you should pamper all of them...

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Nah, if you cater to one language, you should cater to the one spoken by the group that's going to be the majority in this country in the not-so-distant future.

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Mandarin/English mix?

Oh and on topic:

You mean people speak English in Philly? Who knew! Fuggedaboutit.
I'll take my cheesesteak "witout", btw.

I lived in Laredo Texas for about a year. Spanish speakers as a main language vs English was probably 20 to 1.

Yeah I'm Hispanic and fully fluent in the language, but damn.... couldn't stand the place. There were more reasons than that, but it was a large factor.

Eh. I can point out the neighbourhoods in Brussels where the French and Dutch street name signs have been replaced with (obivously illegal) ones in Arabic; and where sales posters and price tags are all unilingual. Come back when Spanish is written in an alphabet you don't recognise :-P

Speak English mothersmurfer!

HowDroll said:

I wish my store would post a sign like that. I have * getting in my face at least several times a day if we don't have someone who speaks Spanish (although it's happened with quite a few Polish-speakers too, Chaz ) at their beck and call. I'll usually tell them that someone will get to them when they get to them, and 50-60% of the time, they end up getting impatient and talking to me in broken but perfectly passable English anyway. As long as this country makes it easy for them to remain ignorant of its dominant language, they're never going to learn to speak English. "Press 1 for English" my a**.

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I'd be annoyed with Pollacks who don't learn to speak English too. If my 85 year old great-grandma can speak broken English at the grocery store to pay the cashier then any Eastern European can do the same!

-- Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:46 pm --

WildSoul said:

You mean people speak English in Philly? Who knew! Fuggedaboutit.
I'll take my cheesesteak "witout", btw.

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This is "threw". Philly is a shithole to begin with, I resent everyday that my dream job is in downtown Philly. I hate this city so fucking much, but I do love wearing my Steelers and Penguins shirts around and getting sassed for it.

Finland's officially bilingual (trilingual if you count some of the northern counties where Sami languages can also be used) - and still I keep wondering what the frak for some Swedish-speakers refuse to learn Finnish, even though they are barely a 5% minority.

Speak English mothersmurfer!

LordRavage said:

Puedo ver porqué el hablar en otra lengua puede ser difícil. Mucho algo intentaría aprender la lengua materna cuando visitar otro país entonces que intenta inglés de la fuerza adentro deja para decir Japón. Además, pienso que intentando aprender otra lengua es fresco. Todavía no soy bueno en él sin embargo.

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*stabs you in the face*

DON'T USE BABEL FISH, BITCH!

Speak English mothersmurfer!

This is a private business, right? What happened to personal freedom, even if it concerns something that makes us uncomfortable? I'm a little unsettled by this Fair Practices thing.

North_Ranger said:

Finland's officially bilingual (trilingual if you count some of the northern counties where Sami languages can also be used) - and still I keep wondering what the frak for some Swedish-speakers refuse to learn Finnish, even though they are barely a 5% minority.

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As long as they don't try to get help in Russian....;-)


Fade: so you think I should be allowed to post a sign "No negroes, darkies, or spics" on my store, too? Fun :-P

Speak English mothersmurfer!

Offensive language displayed to the public is a separate issue, and you know it (and we could argue the merits of that).

In fact, that's going to be the brunt of the argument of the supporters of such an ordinance. The owner opened up the store to the public and is subject to public regulation.

Just messing. I approve whole-heartedly of asking clientele to speak the local language (though, as stated before, there are some big differences between Belgium and the US in that regard...For one, we actually have official languages :-p).

To add to the fun, as an immigrant, you can actually take the citizen test in your language of choice. You can also have a translator on hand if you prefer.

elph said:

To add to the fun, as an immigrant, you can actually take the citizen test in your language of choice. You can also have a translator on hand if you prefer.

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That's just ridiculous.

Speak English mothersmurfer!

Learning the local language just makes sense. It gives you a feeling of belonging in your new country. When I moved to Quebec, I took French immersion and, although my southern accent makes me sound like I'm speaking some sort of weird gumbo French, I managed to get by.

My French still sucks though.

I hate going to Miami cause all they speak is Cuban.

And I hate that accent.

Is Cuban really a different language? Or just a combination of a thick accent and dialect?

acrew english... clicks is what we should all be speaking in...

North_Ranger said:

Finland's officially bilingual (trilingual if you count some of the northern counties where Sami languages can also be used) - and still I keep wondering what the frak for some Swedish-speakers refuse to learn Finnish, even though they are barely a 5% minority.

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Huh. I was under the impression that Swedish and Finnish are pretty much mutually ineligible. I've never been anywhere in that area though, so I don't actually know anything. That's just what I thought I heard.

Bubble181 said:

Fade: so you think I should be allowed to post a sign "No negroes, darkies, or spics" on my store, too? Fun :-P

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Learning to speak another language is much easier than changing your race.

Just say'n.

-- Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:05 pm --

Meraede said:

Learning the local language just makes sense. It gives you a feeling of belonging in your new country. When I moved to Quebec, I took French immersion and, although my southern accent makes me sound like I'm speaking some sort of weird gumbo French, I managed to get by.

My French still sucks though.

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Well, to be fair, Quebecois French is a sort of weird gumbo French to begin with.

Charlie Dont Surf said:

Is Cuban really a different language? Or just a combination of a thick accent and dialect?

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It's still spanish, but they have this annoying sing-songy accent and make everything diminutive. And they make it diminutive with an ugly suffix, too. Normal, decent, spanish speakers diminutize with "-ito" at the end, they use "-ico". The humanity.

-- less than a minute ago --

disclaimer: I have political Cuban relatives.

Speak English mothersmurfer!

Meh...I know Russian (High Muscovite), some Norwegian and some Gaelic, the last two due to family influences.

My family came to this country in the 1980's from Ireland though, so the language barrier wasn't there.

Also: My Barcelonian classmate speaks Spanish of course, but he speaks in Castillian, "pure Spanish' as he calls it. I have a feeling the difference in dialect makes understanding Mexican Spanish and such a bit difficult.

nah, it's not difficult to understand at all if they don't use obscure slang

Although... my grandma, Madrilenian, has lost her accent but still insists we all speak with "orthographical errors" cause we don't pronounce a "z" or a "c" different, which they do in Spain.

Is this the same cheesesteak place where they'll send you to the back of the line if you don't say the ingredients in the right order or pause to look at the menu? Seems pretty reasonable to me that if they'd expect "whiz wit" and reject "I'd like one with cheese whiz and can I get onions on that?", even in English, that they'd reject someone trying to order Spanish.

Yep. Cuban, Mexican, Spanish, etc. etc. Can't stand each others' dialects at all

figmentPez said:

Is this the same cheesesteak place where they'll send you to the back of the line if you don't say the ingredients in the right order or pause to look at the menu? Seems pretty reasonable to me that if they'd expect "whiz wit" and reject "I'd like one with cheese whiz and can I get onions on that?", even in English, that they'd reject someone trying to order Spanish.

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No Cheesesteak for you!
/

My sister recently went to New Brunswick. Whil there she ran into this fench-canadian couple who helped her out when she had some car troubles. Everything was going dandy until my sister said: "Thank you for helping me and speaking to me in English. My french is kind of poor."

Then the wife just started blasting her, talking about how the french were forced to learn english and how the rst of country didn't respect them. She told my sister she was ignorant and that she shouldn't be in that part of New Brunswick with out knowing french and that the englishman expects the french to catere to their language.

My sister was stunned. This lady cursed her out and everything.

I should mention that sissy did six years of french immersion...its just hard to retain when its not being used every day.

Speak English mothersmurfer!

At least they aren't mutually unintelligible like freaking Chinese dialects.

Speak English mothersmurfer!

Shego will be lurking in the shadows ready to shank you in a dark alley

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She welcome to try! ^.^
But she'll find that her kill/death ratio will suffer... very badly.

Charlie Dont Surf said:

Is Cuban really a different language? Or just a combination of a thick accent and dialect?

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...and talking VERY loudly!

Learning the local language just makes sense. It gives you a feeling of belonging in your new country. When I moved to Quebec, I took French immersion and, although my southern accent makes me sound like I'm speaking some sort of weird gumbo French, I managed to get by.

My French still sucks though

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It depends where you live, not so much in the Montreal area but it's a good idea nonetheless.

The French tend to be pretty redneck about their language in this province. So any stories about how stupid French Canadians can be, never surprises me.

Speak English mothersmurfer!

Terrik said:

At least they aren't mutually unintelligible like freaking Chinese dialects.

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This man speaks the truth. I once heard two drunk men arguing in Cantonese. It sounded like a moose drowning.

Speak English mothersmurfer!

SeriousJay said:

Shego will be lurking in the shadows ready to shank you in a dark alley

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She welcome to try! ^.^

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With me...

There is no "try".

Rob King said:

[quote="North_Ranger":2m00xe7o]Finland's officially bilingual (trilingual if you count some of the northern counties where Sami languages can also be used) - and still I keep wondering what the frak for some Swedish-speakers refuse to learn Finnish, even though they are barely a 5% minority.

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Huh. I was under the impression that Swedish and Finnish are pretty much mutually ineligible. I've never been anywhere in that area though, so I don't actually know anything. That's just what I thought I heard.[/quote:2m00xe7o]

*twitch*

BURN THE BLASPHEMER!

Speak English mothersmurfer!

Shegokigo said:

SeriousJay said:

Shego will be lurking in the shadows ready to shank you in a dark alley

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She welcome to try! ^.^

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With me...

There is no "try".

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Learning you are, young padawan but SeriousJay, you are not.

Says the man who uses the younger Yoda as his gif! Ha! I say unto you! HA! :toocool:

North_Ranger said:

[quote="Rob King":3bm00ja4][quote="North_Ranger":3bm00ja4]Finland's officially bilingual (trilingual if you count some of the northern counties where Sami languages can also be used) - and still I keep wondering what the frak for some Swedish-speakers refuse to learn Finnish, even though they are barely a 5% minority.

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Huh. I was under the impression that Swedish and Finnish are pretty much mutually ineligible. I've never been anywhere in that area though, so I don't actually know anything. That's just what I thought I heard.[/quote:3bm00ja4]

*twitch*

BURN THE BLASPHEMER![/quote:3bm00ja4]

So ... does that mean "You are incorrect, good sir."?

Rob King said:

[quote="North_Ranger":xmtjr5ll][quote="Rob King":xmtjr5ll][quote="North_Ranger":xmtjr5ll]Finland's officially bilingual (trilingual if you count some of the northern counties where Sami languages can also be used) - and still I keep wondering what the frak for some Swedish-speakers refuse to learn Finnish, even though they are barely a 5% minority.

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Huh. I was under the impression that Swedish and Finnish are pretty much mutually ineligible. I've never been anywhere in that area though, so I don't actually know anything. That's just what I thought I heard.[/quote:xmtjr5ll]

*twitch*

BURN THE BLASPHEMER![/quote:xmtjr5ll]

So ... does that mean "You are incorrect, good sir."?[/quote:xmtjr5ll]

Something to that effect, yes.

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqSQCshTF70:xmtjr5ll][/youtube:xmtjr5ll]

Consider that your final mercy before I light the pyre.

North_Ranger said:

Something to that effect, yes.

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqSQCshTF70:2gqshrj2][/youtube:2gqshrj2]

Consider that your final mercy before I light the pyre.

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Well. I have no idea what I just watched. But thanks for straightening me out on the Swedish/Finnish thing.

Speak English mothersmurfer!

fade said:

This is a private business, right? What happened to personal freedom, even if it concerns something that makes us uncomfortable? I'm a little unsettled by this Fair Practices thing.

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Your pitiful freedom is no match for our political correctness.

Speak English mothersmurfer!

HowDroll said:

I wish my store would post a sign like that. I have * getting in my face at least several times a day if we don't have someone who speaks Spanish (although it's happened with quite a few Polish-speakers too, Chaz ) at their beck and call. I'll usually tell them that someone will get to them when they get to them, and 50-60% of the time, they end up getting impatient and talking to me in broken but perfectly passable English anyway. As long as this country makes it easy for them to remain ignorant of its dominant language, they're never going to learn to speak English. "Press 1 for English" my a**.

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I want to do the same here, but a bit different, since the native language is spanish.



Every single Brazilian I've dealt with doesn't even make an effort to talk in spanish. Even the French and the Germans try to talk in spanish.

My English is not the best, but I have to agree with the store owner. It is easier for the staff to take order in a single language than trying to learn a bunch of them (usually not part of the job) also less chance of screwing the order up.

I work with people who barely speak English, but at least they try. Back in CA I couldn't say the same and it drove me up a fucking wall trying to help people at work (Sears and then again when I worked at a bar).

Right now my problem is with people who mumble their orders to me then get indignant when I have to make them repeat it.

Chibibar said:

My English is not the best, but I have to agree with the store owner. It is easier for the staff to take order in a single language than trying to learn a bunch of them (usually not part of the job) also less chance of screwing the order up.

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The important thing is not perfection, but the intent to try and learn the language and customs of the people around you, so as not to come off like a selfish prick. It's common decency, and I think the work should be on the foreigner's side of things, and the natives should be receptive and conducive to the people that try.

CynicismKills said:

I work with people who barely speak English, but at least they try. Back in CA I couldn't say the same and it drove me up a fucking wall trying to help people at work (Sears and then again when I worked at a bar).

Right now my problem is with people who mumble their orders to me then get indignant when I have to make them repeat it.

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Exactly. I've had people who come up to me and speak Spanish, then act pissy and stomp away when they find out I don't speak it (then again, I'm a mutt, so I've gotten everything from Spanish to Russian). I have no problem with wanting to retain your culture and language, but it's incredibly self-centered and idiotic to expect the country to conform to your standards.

When I studied abroad in Japan, I used my Japanese as best I could (granted, I had taken it for a few years beforehand), even if it was uncomfortable. When (if, heh) I go to Egypt next year, I will attempt to learn at least basic Arabic to make life easier for both myself and them. I kind of expect the same courtesy to at least try to speak the native tongue.

Speak English mothersmurfer!

Quick fun story:

For a a while I was a bartender at the jersey shore during the summer. This is the time when the guidos come down to play.

This particular summer, I had my first middle name on my nametag, more or less for the hell of it. That name's Diarmuid. Keep in mind my natural hair color is light reddish brown, and I'm nearly chalk white in terms of fairness, so I look as Irish as I am, ancestry wise. Here's a conversation with one young man, and the typical 'ugly American' that foreigners dislike

"Yo lookit da fuckin' mick over here. Hey paddy, you fuckin' speak english?"

"....Of course sir, I'm American.:

"Then why ya gotta name like ya's a fuckin potato head off da boat huh huh huh?

"Didn't have much of a choice when my parents named me sir.."

"Fuck you, gimme a beer"

"ID?"

"The fuck do you mean ID, you fuckin' blind?"

"We card anyone who looks under 35, No ID, no drink"

"You think I'm fuckin' stupid?"

"Of course not"

"Fuck you I don't need this"

And off he went.

...what else would you speak, Gaelic?

sheesh

Fun Facts about North_Ranger:

As some of you may know, I recently spent a year abroad, studying in Ireland. Appearance-wise I was (and am) fat, 6 feet tall, with curly blond hair and a thick, rust-red beard. Plus glasses. An American friend I was in regular contact with on Skype told me I had started to sound a little British. While when I asked, just for fun, Irish people I came in contact with, where they thought I came from after a small chat, nine out of ten said I sounded like I was from the States. One thought I was Dutch.

Go figure.

-- Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:22 am --

Calleja said:

...what else would you speak, Gaelic?

sheesh

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Tá me dreathair amhain agus dreachair amhain. Fhionn ar mo gruaig.

pog mo thuin!!

or however you spell it aranoid:

North_Ranger said:

Fun Facts about North_Ranger:

As some of you may know, I recently spent a year abroad, studying in Ireland. Appearance-wise I was (and am) fat, 6 feet tall, with curly blond hair and a thick, rust-red beard. Plus glasses. An American friend I was in regular contact with on Skype told me I had started to sound a little British. While when I asked, just for fun, Irish people I came in contact with, where they thought I came from after a small chat, nine out of ten said I sounded like I was from the States. One thought I was Dutch.

Go figure.

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Interestingly I had a Finnish friend while I was at uni, and we all assumed she was American at first. The trouble was that the greatest exposure she'd had to English before coming to uni was from watching Friends, she'd obviously learnt English at school, but it sounded like she'd practised it in front of the TV, it was very strange.

Mr_Chaz said:

[quote="North_Ranger":187ox25e]Fun Facts about North_Ranger:

As some of you may know, I recently spent a year abroad, studying in Ireland. Appearance-wise I was (and am) fat, 6 feet tall, with curly blond hair and a thick, rust-red beard. Plus glasses. An American friend I was in regular contact with on Skype told me I had started to sound a little British. While when I asked, just for fun, Irish people I came in contact with, where they thought I came from after a small chat, nine out of ten said I sounded like I was from the States. One thought I was Dutch.

Go figure.

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Interestingly I had a Finnish friend while I was at uni, and we all assumed she was American at first. The trouble was that the greatest exposure she'd had to English before coming to uni was from watching Friends, she'd obviously learnt English at school, but it sounded like she'd practised it in front of the TV, it was very strange.[/quote:187ox25e]

Well, for most Finns it either the American TV shows (or the rare British comedy series) - or Mika Häkkinen:

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRIq3UhoB-M:187ox25e][/youtube:187ox25e]

Bubble181 said:

Eh. I can point out the neighbourhoods in Brussels where the French and Dutch street name signs have been replaced with (obivously illegal) ones in Arabic; and where sales posters and price tags are all unilingual. Come back when Spanish is written in an alphabet you don't recognise :-P

Click to expand...

we're being fucking invaded...

i'm not gonna talk about the language problem in Belgium tho. not gonna happen

North_Ranger said:

[quote="Mr_Chaz":g81ge6a9][quote="North_Ranger":g81ge6a9]Fun Facts about North_Ranger:

As some of you may know, I recently spent a year abroad, studying in Ireland. Appearance-wise I was (and am) fat, 6 feet tall, with curly blond hair and a thick, rust-red beard. Plus glasses. An American friend I was in regular contact with on Skype told me I had started to sound a little British. While when I asked, just for fun, Irish people I came in contact with, where they thought I came from after a small chat, nine out of ten said I sounded like I was from the States. One thought I was Dutch.

Go figure.

Click to expand...

Interestingly I had a Finnish friend while I was at uni, and we all assumed she was American at first. The trouble was that the greatest exposure she'd had to English before coming to uni was from watching Friends, she'd obviously learnt English at school, but it sounded like she'd practised it in front of the TV, it was very strange.[/quote:g81ge6a9]

Well, for most Finns it either the American TV shows (or the rare British comedy series) - or Mika Häkkinen:

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRIq3UhoB-M:g81ge6a9][/youtube:g81ge6a9][/quote:g81ge6a9]


I miss Mika, he was always good fun to watch.

Mr_Chaz said:

I miss Mika, he was always good fun to watch.

Click to expand...

I don't... but that's mostly because Finns hate to be laughed at by anyone but themselves. Silvio Berlusconi never made any friends here...

North_Ranger said:

[quote="Mr_Chaz":2ucxs2c9]I miss Mika, he was always good fun to watch.

Click to expand...

I don't... but that's mostly because Finns hate to be laughed at by anyone but themselves. Silvio Berlusconi never made any friends here...[/quote:2ucxs2c9]

You see, I don't think I ever laughed at him, I only thought he came across as a nice guy who was just kinda frustrated by the inane questions people would ask. And it was a joy to watch him drive, and a genuine pain when something went wrong for him, he always seemed so honest.

Speak English mothersmurfer!

the point of the sign is that to keep business moving in an orderly fashion you should ask for your food in a language the cook understands. end of story, glad he won.

It seems extremely short sighted to not serve half of your customer base in a language that they do not understand. If you are on the edge of a predominately Spanish speaking neighborhood, you should accommodate your clientele.

They will be swallowed up by the expanding Spanish speaking demographic in 10 years. Then the sign will read "Hablemos Espanol"

Soon we will have a Balkanized nation divided over language.

sixpackshaker said:

It seems extremely short sighted to not serve half of your customer base in a language that they do not understand. If you are on the edge of a predominately Spanish speaking neighborhood, you should accommodate your clientele.

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Or, you know, Spanish speakers could bother trying to learn the language that most of the books, movies, television shows, stage productions, music, educational programs (both public and private), business, and politics are written/conducted in. Especially if you have CHOSEN to live here.

If I even took a vacation someplace else in the world without learning how to get around using that country's language, I'd be the "Ugly American" stereotype. People come and live here for years without bothering to learn passable english, and it's the english speakers being intolerant. Fuck that. I've encountered innumerable people at work (I'm a cart wrangler at Target) who spoke broken english. It was hard to understand most of them. But I understood them, and have to date always been able to help them find what they were looking for (or get them someone who could). But if someone walked up to me speaking in Hindi or Arabic (I live in Michigan), it'd be over. I would not be able to understand them, nor would any other employee that I am aware of. And we're not the ones in the wrong.

Sounds like Target in Michigan should stop their discriminatory hiring practices and get some Indians and Arabs on the workforce.

Speak English mothersmurfer!

Anubinomicon said:

the point of the sign is that to keep business moving in an orderly fashion you should ask for your food in a language the cook understands. end of story, glad he won.

Click to expand...

But what happens when the cook speaks Spanish?

Or better yet, what happens when you go to my favorite Vietnamese restaurant...where the cook speaks Spanish.

Or better yet, what happens when you go to this little cart a few miles from my house where a Chinese/Mexican-American serves Chinese/Mexican-American food, but he speaks English so yeah.

I agree with most of the sentiment in this thread. I think people should be able to conduct business in any way they please as long as it's not outwardly discriminatory. If you want English only orders then ok. If you have 15 language options on your customer service line then ok. If you want to accept Mexican Pesos at your pizzaria then ok.

If immigrants of any kind have trouble with that then nuts to them. Learning the language gives you power, it makes you more successful, gives your family a future. Let's use Chaz as an example, or even me (French as a first language for my mother despite being several generations born in the US.) Because our ancestors took the time to learn they put themselves in a position to have children that went to college.

And at the same time we should give a break to those who don't know the language. While many have been here for 20 years and don't speak the language, there are many who just moved and are scared of messing up the language or coming off as ungrateful. Patience and encouragement work wonders here.

sixpackshaker said:

Sounds like Target in Michigan should stop their discriminatory hiring practices and get some Indians and Arabs on the workforce.

Click to expand...

You'd be right...except for the fact that most of these immigrants are older folks who HAVE jobs. Target doesn't discriminate. My Target is, however, at the border of three WASPy suburbs and located on the major road that is a straight shot into Detroit proper...at the same place there you can get on and off the highway. We get folks from a fairly large geographic area shopping there....but mostly folks from the immediate four areas working there. It's a matter of local geography, not racial standards.

Speak English mothersmurfer!

Anubinomicon said:

the point of the sign is that to keep business moving in an orderly fashion you should ask for your food in a language the cook understands. end of story, glad he won.

Click to expand...

When the line can go for longer than the building, yeah, I figure this is the reason for the sign moreso than anything else.

I actually wrote a paper on this subject - it was for a course discussing the politics of language in various English-speaking countries. The sources I read mentioned something called "English Plus", a lobby group who wanted to promote the use of English - plus at least one other foreign/enclave language (e.g. various Native American languages). While it is expected to keep a somewhat neutral viewpoint in the paper, I personally found the idea quite compelling. You get the other-than-English-speakers to learn English without antagonizing them, while at the same time you propose that the English-speakers learn another language as well.

But then again, I'm a Finn, it's late and I don't feel like digging out that paper in the middle of the night. I'll just keep cursing about those damn "coastal Swedes" who celebrate "Day of Swedishness" and refuse to learn Finnish. Snacka finska, morknullare! :tongue:

Math242 said:

Bubble181 said:

Eh. I can point out the neighbourhoods in Brussels where the French and Dutch street name signs have been replaced with (obivously illegal) ones in Arabic; and where sales posters and price tags are all unilingual. Come back when Spanish is written in an alphabet you don't recognise :-P

Click to expand...

we're being fucking invaded...

i'm not gonna talk about the language problem in Belgium tho. not gonna happen

Click to expand...

It'd only end in bloodshed :-P

Speak English mothersmurfer!

If I even took a vacation someplace else in the world without learning how to get around using that country's language, I'd be the "Ugly American" stereotype.

Click to expand...

Believe it or not, you probably wouldn't. The fact is that English is the Lingua Franca of the world. Besides the fact that I don't think its necessary to take a year long course on Russian if I ever wanted Moscow for a week, the truth is much of the world would cater to you whether or not you spoke another language, as long as you spoke English.

Lets take my situation in China, for example.

I live in China now, and while my Chinese is passable, it's not great. It's a bloody hard language and I feel sympathy for learners of another language (though Knowing Spanish and learning English is nothing like Chinese-English, to be sure). The truth is if I could not speak a word of Chinese, I'd probably be ok----in fact when I came to China the first time a few years ago, I did exactly that, and I learned from the ground up.

I often find myself at odds with myself in this kind of debate. On one hand, knowing the language of the place you're at is common sense. While I COULD be ok in China without being able to speak Chinese, it doesn't mean I'd want to be in China without speaking Chinese. I like a certain degree of self-sufficiency and being able to speak Chinese helps immensely.

Of course on the other hand, one thing I've noticed is that in all the places I've ever been to, I've never seen so much ire directed at people not being able to speak the language than back in the U.S.. I've often discussed with friends of mine that if you live in the states and speak broken English, people think you're a dumbass. If I live in China and can say "Ni Hao", I get "Wows" and "Your Chinese is great!". I tend to have a little more sympathy for people who can't speak English so well simply because it's a hard language. Does that mean they shouldn't learn to speak it? No---they should. It just simply amuses me that a westerner can go to China for instance, and never get any shit for not being able to speak Chinese, but flip the tables around and we suddenly have a problem.


Disclaimer: I also realize the main point of this particular topic applies to people with makes the US their home and don't speak English (at all), but I think some of what I wrote still applies.

I think a lot of your points about China are unique to China. It's not a matter of English cultures getting butthurt about people not learning English. There have already been some allusions to similar thoughts and feelings in Finland and Belgium in this thread alone. I know France is xenophobic to begin with, but that's another great example. And may God have mercy on your soul if you try to erect an English sign in Quebec.

I think the reason China is so laid back is twofold: First of all, you don't get a lot of English immigrants to China, unless they're there to teach English. You certainly don't have a lot of Americans moving to China to make a better life for themselves (or at least, not yet ). And second of all, Mandarin has so many mutually unintelligible dialects, that the Chinese are no strangers to the curse of Babylon anyways.

...

After considering it, though, perhaps it's more to do with the development of different nations. Western Europe is getting fed up with Arab immigrants. The U.S.A. is getting fed up with Spanish-speaking immigrants. Both of those situations are in developed parts of the world, taking on immigrants from less-developed nations.

Nations which might be a little bit behind on the curve would obviously be more lenient to immigrants who have (sort of) moved down in the world to come live with them. And as you said, English is the Lingua Franca of the age, so the whole world really has something to gain from English-speakers, which would explain why English Speakers are given a lot of leeway language-wise.

Hmm. Things to consider ...

Eh, language stuff in Europe has historical grounds as well. The French still hate anything by les Anglais; especially in towns where a large part of the population is English. Again, I'm not even goin to try and summarize the language situation in Belgium - let's just say it's complicated, and the roots go back at least to hundred years, and are as much sociological as linguistic. In most of Eastern Europe, you've got a generation that understands but refusses to speak German, a generation that understands but refuses to speak Russian, a generation that speaks German, and a generation that speaks English, all as their second languages. (from being oppressed by Nazi Germany, USSR, trying to fit in the German economic wonder and drag themselves up, and from turning to the US instead of the EU for help due to cultural imperialism aka Hollywood :-P).
China is so huge; yet have been united, for so long, that their views on language are, I think,radically different. But I haven't been to China, so....

Speak English mothersmurfer!

KenjiFinster said:

I want to do the same here, but a bit different, since the native language is spanish.

Every single Brazilian I've dealt with doesn't even make an effort to talk in spanish. Even the French and the Germans try to talk in spanish.

Click to expand...

Não, nós não FALAMOS Português.
And apparently it is true...

But you know, that is funny... every single Spanish guy I ever met in Brazil for some reason fully expect you to understand them in Spanish. No, we don't have this issue with French and Germans... I guess I'll make a "no hablo espanol" shirt now...

Speak English mothersmurfer!

rabbitgod said:

Anubinomicon said:

the point of the sign is that to keep business moving in an orderly fashion you should ask for your food in a language the cook understands. end of story, glad he won.

Click to expand...

But what happens when the cook speaks Spanish?

Or better yet, what happens when you go to my favorite Vietnamese restaurant...where the cook speaks Spanish.

Or better yet, what happens when you go to this little cart a few miles from my house where a Chinese/Mexican-American serves Chinese/Mexican-American food, but he speaks English so yeah.

I agree with most of the sentiment in this thread. I think people should be able to conduct business in any way they please as long as it's not outwardly discriminatory. If you want English only orders then ok. If you have 15 language options on your customer service line then ok. If you want to accept Mexican Pesos at your pizzaria then ok.

If immigrants of any kind have trouble with that then nuts to them. Learning the language gives you power, it makes you more successful, gives your family a future. Let's use Chaz as an example, or even me (French as a first language for my mother despite being several generations born in the US.) Because our ancestors took the time to learn they put themselves in a position to have children that went to college.

And at the same time we should give a break to those who don't know the language. While many have been here for 20 years and don't speak the language, there are many who just moved and are scared of messing up the language or coming off as ungrateful. Patience and encouragement work wonders here.

Click to expand...

what happens when the cook speaks another language? nothing. the cook in a KITCHEN doesn't have to serve 600 people in an hour because the restaurant only holds a certain amount of people and guess what?......the waiters and waitresses ALL SPEAK ENGLISH well enough to serve the customer even if it's their second language. it was a nice grab at something there, but reality of the situation is that his business is based on customers served and not amount of money earned on higher priced dishes.

Speak English mothersmurfer!

I need to brush up on my spanish. I can still read it decently (for a kindergartner) and with Calleja being in my Twitter feed i'll have plenty of stuff to practice with. Even if its all Beatles Lyrics.

HEY! that #TheBeatlesEnEspañol hashtag was not only hilarious but awesome!!

Speak English mothersmurfer!

Anubinomicon said:

rabbitgod said:

Anubinomicon said:

the point of the sign is that to keep business moving in an orderly fashion you should ask for your food in a language the cook understands. end of story, glad he won.

Click to expand...

Clipped for ease of reading

Click to expand...

what happens when the cook speaks another language? nothing. the cook in a KITCHEN doesn't have to serve 600 people in an hour because the restaurant only holds a certain amount of people and guess what?......the waiters and waitresses ALL SPEAK ENGLISH well enough to serve the customer even if it's their second language. it was a nice grab at something there, but reality of the situation is that his business is based on customers served and not amount of money earned on higher priced dishes.

Click to expand...

Bolded for your convenience. It is a direct response to what you said. And now you are changing your arguement.

So what happens when the wait staff speaks another language. Or a restaurant is owned by by non english speaking people. Does the same rule apply?

And I never disagreed that the court didn't make the right decison. I completely agree that a businessman has the right do conduct business as they please (barring any real discrimination e.g. race, religion, sexual orientation, etc.). But that applies to all business. And the customer has the right to not shop at a store that doesn't cater to their linguic preference.

And I don't even know where that last part came from. I certainly didn't say that and I don't see how it's relevant to the conversation. Is that from further up in the thread?

Speak English. Assimilate. If your old culture was so awesome you'd still be in your old country.

But what about when this country came to your culture? Louisiana Purchase and all that.

And once again I'll reiterate. I think immigrants should learn english for their own benefit. I don't think it should be required and at the same time they shouldn't get help if they don't. If you can't take the drivers test in english than you don't get to take the test. If you can skate by then so be it.

Suggesting that business have the right to work as they please because this is America and we are free to do as we please, then saying that all immigrants must learn the language is hypocritical. If some are free than all are free. Anything less is bordering racism...or linguism in this case.

Speak English mothersmurfer!

whats wrong with racism? they've been racist in the middle east, africa and asia for thousands of years. don't they still have functioning societies there? :tongue:

GasBandit said:

Speak English. Assimilate. If your old culture was so awesome you'd still be in your old country.

Click to expand...

Dammit. yer right.

Speak English mothersmurfer!

GasBandit said:

Speak English. Assimilate. If your old culture was so awesome you'd still be in your old country.

Click to expand...

My family left Ireland due to job offers and having family members who were......involved in the Troubles.

Still, we keep the Irish culture up and such.

Speak English mothersmurfer!

rabbitgod said:

But what about when this country came to your culture? Louisiana Purchase and all that.

Click to expand...

Grandfather clause. All the French that were there when the US purchased it can get a free pass on any language laws. :eyeroll:

Speak English mothersmurfer!

Anubinomicon said:

whats wrong with racism? they've been racist in the middle east, africa and asia for thousands of years. don't they still have functioning societies there? :tongue:

Click to expand...

We're better than they are. We don't need that crutch.

Covar said:

Grandfather clause. All the French that were there when the US purchased it can get a free pass on any language laws.

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Which is fine with me as long as it includes all the Spanish speakers from the same treaty, and the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, "Seward's Foll," the Gadsden Purchase, etc. As well as all indiginous language speakers.

Speak English mothersmurfer!

:tumbleweed:

sure. Any non-english speaker alive at the time of any American land-grab treaties or situations would be exempt from any english language laws.

What you don't have 200 year old Spaniards living next door?

We still need to consider Indigenous languages. They have the right to speak it as a primary language. If we give them that right, we should give everybody the right.

Bottom line for me is, you don't have to do business or engage with anybody...ever. Immigrant or not. So what does it matter?

I didn't know speaking a language was a right...

Speak English mothersmurfer!

Over here (in the Netherlands) all official papers etc are available in arabic among other languages.
I was in The Hague for a few days and everything was in English. (advertisements, shop names, restaurant menu's). I'm used to that being so in Amsterdam but I didn't know other big cities did this too.

So many people never learn to speak Dutch, even though they have lived here for years!
One of my teachers is from London and she said she never really had to learn Dutch since everyone adressed her in English. After ten years she still can't speak Dutch without a very heavy accent.
My best friends (American) mother didn't learn to speak "proper" Dutch in fourteen years.

@ Finnish/Swedish thing. Lots of people think Dutch and German are the same language or so similar that we can understand each other. Ehm. No.

(Not related to what I said before but reading this thread reminded me of this:

I was in Michigan last year, speaking Dutch to my friend and some guy then told his friends:
They're Russians! )

ElJuski said:

I didn't know speaking a language was a right...

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The relationship between the Federal government and the Native American Reservations within allows the right to pick and use the language of their choice.

The 4th most spoken language in Arizona is a Native American language. That's how they do business.

And certainly you have the right to speak English any time you want. And certainly any business has the right to serve their customers in any language they want.

I could have worded it better, that's for sure.

Speak English mothersmurfer!

Covar said:

rabbitgod said:

But what about when this country came to your culture? Louisiana Purchase and all that.

Click to expand...

Grandfather clause. All the French that were there when the US purchased it can get a free pass on any language laws. :eyeroll:

Click to expand...

They did not, Acadian French has nearly been driven to extinction. There was system wide pressure to stop them "foreign" French speakers from continuing their language. I had a speech prof that was literally whipped in school because he spoke French on the playground on his first day of kindergarten.

rabbitgod said:

But what about when this country came to your culture? Louisiana Purchase and all that.

And once again I'll reiterate. I think immigrants should learn english for their own benefit. I don't think it should be required and at the same time they shouldn't get help if they don't. If you can't take the drivers test in english than you don't get to take the test. If you can skate by then so be it.

Suggesting that business have the right to work as they please because this is America and we are free to do as we please, then saying that all immigrants must learn the language is hypocritical. If some are free than all are free. Anything less is bordering racism...or linguism in this case.

Click to expand...

The louisiana purchase is irrelevant. English is the cultural language of the U.S. Always has been. That we have fallen so far to the cancerous, politically correct bunk known as "multiculturalism" is an extremely sorry thing. Businesses can refuse service for any reason or no reason, that's free association and also irrelevant to this discussion. The pertinent thing here is that to forge and maintain a national/cultural identity requires assimilation of new immigrants. Otherwise you get culturally segregated ghettos, the residents all mistrusting each other because they're not "like me." That english aptitude has not been a required part of US citizenship so far is one of the tragic shortcomings of our nation.

Indian reservations are also irrelevant because they're basically their own little nations with their own little governments. They can do whatever they want as far as language goes, within their borders.

WolfOfOdin said:

GasBandit said:

Speak English. Assimilate. If your old culture was so awesome you'd still be in your old country.

Click to expand...

My family left Ireland due to job offers and having family members who were......involved in the Troubles.

Still, we keep the Irish culture up and such.

Click to expand...

By Irish Culture, I'm assuming you mean the contemporary one which speaks english, and not the one that runs around in the woods speaking gaelic, burning people in effigy and making bloody animal sacrifices, yes?

On another note, "The Troubles" is also an excellent example of what can occur due to insufficient cultural assimilation within geographical confines.

Speak English mothersmurfer!

Poftoffel said:

I was in Michigan last year, speaking Dutch to my friend and some guy then told his friends:
They're Russians! )

Click to expand...

That's one of those situations that I would burst into laughter, and carry on with the person who called you Russians as if he was joking. Then I would stop, 'realize' the truth, pretend to be all embarrassed, and apologize since I 'thought' they were joking.

GasBandit said:

The louisiana purchase is irrelevant. English is the cultural language of the U.S. Always has been. That we have fallen so far to the cancerous, politically correct bunk known as "multiculturalism" is an extremely sorry thing. Businesses can refuse service for any reason or no reason, that's free association and also irrelevant to this discussion. The pertinent thing here is that to forge and maintain a national/cultural identity requires assimilation of new immigrants. Otherwise you get culturally segregated ghettos, the residents all mistrusting each other because they're not "like me." That english aptitude has not been a required part of US citizenship so far is one of the tragic shortcomings of our nation.

Indian reservations are also irrelevant because they're basically their own little nations with their own little governments. They can do whatever they want as far as language goes, within their borders.

Click to expand...

And customers are free to frequent who they please. If they choose a non english restaurant that is their choice. By requiring immigrants to learn english you are infringing on the inherent beauty of this country, the freedom to do as you like. By requiring immigrants to learn english you introduce big government into peoples everyday life. I'm suggesting that instead of forcing them to assimilate, instead, people simply stop catering to non-speakers.

And I don't see the Lousiana purchase as irrelevant. You said that if people are coming here they must assimilate, but when the U.S. did it, they don't have to. Sure that's the benefit of being the nation in power, but these immigrants are taking power. Cultural change happens whether we like it to or not. It sounds like the people who want required assimilation are scared that it's their turn to be assimilated.

I don't disagree that english for citizenship should be required. Rather, it should be in English and if you can't read the test then too bad. I've already said this already so I won't delve further.

Regarding Reservations, they are still citizens and are free to go about their business outside of their border. If they get that right, then all must get that right. And, again, you don't have to cater to them. Many who don't speak english simply don't leave, but they are still allowed to.

As far as assimilation and segragating, I agree. At no point did I say anything contrary. I just don't think it should be forced.

In the end I think you and I (and a few others) agree more than we disagree. Currently you are not forced to deal with people in business or personally who do not speak the language you want. If they want to struggle and fail then that is their right. I think they should assimilate for their own good, so that they can get the American dream. But forcing them does nothing. They tried it with Natives and the resentment built so great that they have more problems than ever. Where as other Native groups have flourished with the option.

GasBandit said:

By Irish Culture, I'm assuming you mean the contemporary one which speaks english, and not the one that runs around in the woods speaking gaelic, burning people in effigy and making bloody animal sacrifices, yes?

Click to expand...

You do realize there's more to Celts than Julius Caesar's propagandistic image, don't you? Hell, Bibracte and other Gallic cities were major hubs of trade and craftsmanship, not some huts surrounded by a palisade.

Hell, there's a section of Spain that's considered of Gaelic ancestry.

North_Ranger said:

GasBandit said:

By Irish Culture, I'm assuming you mean the contemporary one which speaks english, and not the one that runs around in the woods speaking gaelic, burning people in effigy and making bloody animal sacrifices, yes?

Click to expand...

You do realize there's more to Celts than Julius Caesar's propagandistic image, don't you? Hell, Bibracte and other Gallic cities were major hubs of trade and craftsmanship, not some huts surrounded by a palisade.

Click to expand...

Next you're going to say that in Irak they knew of foods other than dry mud before the glorious US brought them bountiful shipments of liberty fries.

rabbitgod said:

Regarding Reservations, they are still citizens and are free to go about their business outside of their border. If they get that right, then all must get that right. And, again, you don't have to cater to them. Many who don't speak english simply don't leave, but they are still allowed to.

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Natives are considered to have dual citizenship, for both the US and towards their respective tribal nations. Each reservation is considered it's own separate nation in regards to it's language and culture (though being so close to the US heavily influences it) as well as certain laws. In short, they don't have to do it because it was agreed that they would have certain rights and privileges inside of their own territories when they were first created, and they were only given these rights to prevent future uprisings.

rabbitgod said:

But forcing them does nothing. They tried it with Natives and the resentment built so great that they have more problems than ever. Where as other Native groups have flourished with the option.

Click to expand...

Your forgetting one huge detail: In the case of the Natives, WE were the hostile invading force and they were the rightful owners of the land. They get special rights in recognition of this fact. That is not the case with other immigrant groups entering into the US today... THEY are newcomers and the US (or State... not sure where this falls) Government gets to dictate the rules by which they will abide.

rabbitgod said:

But forcing them does nothing. They tried it with Natives and the resentment built so great that they have more problems than ever. Where as other Native groups have flourished with the option.

Click to expand...

There is a difference between saying "you need to learn English, as it is the primary language in which business, education, and government work are conducted" and "we're gonna kidnap your children, change their names & religions, and force them into our way of life".

They don't have dual citizenship. They are citizens of the U.S. with tribal enrollment that varies from tribe to tribe. That does not grant a second citizenship, there are no documents for immigration, etc.

And really I'm not sure why you wrote the rest of that paragraph. I don't recall saying anything that contradicts what you said. I'm using natives as an example of how citizens are allowed to use the language of their choice. Maybe they aren't a good example since there are federal treaties in place that change the argument. Let's use German speaking Amish. I don't know how many speak English, but surely there are groups of them (and other secluded religious groups) who don't speak English. They don't have special treaties that allow them to stay separate culturally. If they have that right, then all citizens should have that right to conduct themselves in any language they please. Just as any English speaking person can conduct themselves any way they please.

I think you missed the point of what I was saying in the second part. It's true that we were the invading force and have given special liberties to the invaded. That's a part of cultural change. The thing though, is that culture changes at all times. It's changing now. If everybody who isn't an English speaker decided to vote in a certain manner then they would change the cultural standards of this country. This country will change it's culture. It already has.

It's true that we get to make the rules. However, there are no rules currently that require English use as a citizen. You must pass a comprehension test (with exceptions for the elderly), but you are not required to speak use it there after.

And what I was really intending with that paragraph is that patience and encouragement in English comprehension works better than forced education. At one time native were forced to go to English style schools. This has created a lot of ill feelings toward the U.S. by native. Where as at least one group of transplanted Mexican Natives were the option of learning English. They did.

Dorko- I never said it was the same. See above. Encouragement works better than the anger placed against non english speakers.

Even though I've already said this. I AM NOT SAYING THAT THEY SHOULDN'T LEARN ENGLISH. They should. I just think that we should allow Capitalism to work this out. If people chose not to do business with them then they will have to adapt.


And with that, I appreciate the lively debate, but this seems like a good time for me to bow out. I'll be happy to read any responses as I'm always open to other peoples opinion, but it's probably time for me to stop replying. This thread really shouldn't have this many replies. This is a fun forum with silly pictures and bad puns. I'd like to keep it that way.

Speak English mothersmurfer!

zero said:

KenjiFinster said:

I want to do the same here, but a bit different, since the native language is spanish.

Every single Brazilian I've dealt with doesn't even make an effort to talk in spanish. Even the French and the Germans try to talk in spanish.

Click to expand...

Não, nós não FALAMOS Português.
And apparently it is true...

But you know, that is funny... every single Spanish guy I ever met in Brazil for some reason fully expect you to understand them in Spanish. No, we don't have this issue with French and Germans... I guess I'll make a "no hablo espanol" shirt now...

Click to expand...

Sorry, I did that in a hurry with the Google translator.
Anyone who doesn't even try to make an effort to use the language of the country they are in should be scolded. I really don't have an issue with a foreigner who speaks in "broken" spanish (even brazilians). But when they don't even make a little effort, it makes me really angry.

I mention the brazilians because they are the ones I see the most (30 or so every day), and they feel offended when you don't answer them in portuguese (one even tried to give me a punch)

Curious thing: French tourists speak a pretty good "broken" spanish, and they're actually quite nice. Never had seen a trace of that "xenophobe" thing with them.

Rabbitgod: the Amish don't speak German, they speak an old and adapted version of Dutch. :-P

KenjiFinster said:

zero said:

KenjiFinster said:

I want to do the same here, but a bit different, since the native language is spanish.

*snip*

Every single Brazilian I've dealt with doesn't even make an effort to talk in spanish. Even the French and the Germans try to talk in spanish.

Click to expand...

Não, nós não FALAMOS Português.
And apparently it is true...

But you know, that is funny... every single Spanish guy I ever met in Brazil for some reason fully expect you to understand them in Spanish. No, we don't have this issue with French and Germans... I guess I'll make a "no hablo espanol" shirt now...

Click to expand...

Sorry, I did that in a hurry with the Google translator.
Anyone who doesn't even try to make an effort to use the language of the country they are in should be scolded. I really don't have an issue with a foreigner who speaks in "broken" spanish (even brazilians). But when they don't even make a little effort, it makes me really angry.

I mention the brazilians because they are the ones I see the most (30 or so every day), and they feel offended when you don't answer them in portuguese (one even tried to give me a punch)

Curious thing: French tourists speak a pretty good "broken" spanish, and they're actually quite nice. Never had seen a trace of that "xenophobe" thing with them.

Click to expand...

Guys... you do realize that both Spanish and Portuguese speakers believe that, at least on paper, the languages are very similar and hence assume that if they speak slowly in the other language, they'll be understood?

I'm not saying it's a solid conclusion, but it makes sense on why brazilians would go to spanish-speaking countries without trying to speak spanish and vice versa. I'm not justifying them, just explaining.

Bubble181 said:

Rabbitgod: the Amish don't speak German, they speak an old and adapted version of Dutch. :-P

Click to expand...

This, and they also speak English with anyone outside of their communities because they know we generally aren't going to know it. The Amish aren't a problem because they don't demand we secede to their special needs, they meet the needs of the general public anytime they need to interact with them.

AshburnerX said:

Bubble181 said:

Rabbitgod: the Amish don't speak German, they speak an old and adapted version of Dutch. :-P

Click to expand...

This, and they also speak English with anyone outside of their communities because they know we generally aren't going to know it. The Amish aren't a problem because they don't demand we secede to their special needs, they meet the needs of the general public anytime they need to interact with them.

Click to expand...

Actually, no. Rabbitgod pointed out in PMs that they do, in fact, speak a bastardized German, not a bastardized Duth. I'm never wrong, so I obviously just said that to test him. aranoid:

Bubble181 said:

AshburnerX said:

Bubble181 said:

Rabbitgod: the Amish don't speak German, they speak an old and adapted version of Dutch. :-P

Click to expand...

This, and they also speak English with anyone outside of their communities because they know we generally aren't going to know it. The Amish aren't a problem because they don't demand we secede to their special needs, they meet the needs of the general public anytime they need to interact with them.

Click to expand...

Actually, no. Rabbitgod pointed out in PMs that they do, in fact, speak a bastardized German, not a bastardized Duth. I'm never wrong, so I obviously just said that to test him. aranoid:

Click to expand...

Oops. *facepalm*

Chandler: Hold on a second, Joe. Where do Dutch people come from?
Joey: Ah, well, the, uh, Pennsylvania Dutch come from Pennsylvania.
Chandler: And the, uh, other Dutch people? They come from somewhere near the Netherlands, right?
Joey: Nice try! See, the Netherlands is this make-believe place where Peter Pan and Tinkerbell come from.

Calleja said:

Chandler: Hold on a second, Joe. Where do Dutch people come from?
Joey: Ah, well, the, uh, Pennsylvania Dutch come from Pennsylvania.
Chandler: And the, uh, other Dutch people? They come from somewhere near the Netherlands, right?
Joey: Nice try! See, the Netherlands is this make-believe place where Peter Pan and Tinkerbell come from.

Click to expand...

After seeing the Red Light district in Amsterdam... he's not that far off.

Speak English mothersmurfer!

ok here's the problem... the people who are saying people shouldn't need to learn english well enough to order food are missing something.....

THIS WENT TO COURT TO SEE IF THE CHEESESTEAK SHOP OWNER WAS INFRINGING ON THE RIGHTS OF PEOPLE COMING TO HIS ESTABLISHMENT WHERE HE HAS THE RIGHT TO REFUSE SERVICE.

Speak English mothersmurfer!

Anubinomicon said:

ok here's the problem... the people who are saying people shouldn't need to learn english well enough to order food are missing something.....

THIS WENT TO COURT TO SEE IF THE CHEESESTEAK SHOP OWNER WAS INFRINGING ON THE RIGHTS OF PEOPLE COMING TO HIS ESTABLISHMENT WHERE HE HAS THE RIGHT TO REFUSE SERVICE.

Click to expand...

No, it has been established by the Civil Rights Bill that running a public service does not give you carte blanche to discriminate. Every Whites Only Diner in America had to start serving everyone. In a lot of ways this is the similar to that level of discrimination.

Speak English mothersmurfer!

sixpackshaker said:

Anubinomicon said:

ok here's the problem... the people who are saying people shouldn't need to learn english well enough to order food are missing something.....

THIS WENT TO COURT TO SEE IF THE CHEESESTEAK SHOP OWNER WAS INFRINGING ON THE RIGHTS OF PEOPLE COMING TO HIS ESTABLISHMENT WHERE HE HAS THE RIGHT TO REFUSE SERVICE.

Click to expand...

No, it has been established by the Civil Rights Bill that running a public service does not give you carte blanche to discriminate. Every Whites Only Diner in America had to start serving everyone. In a lot of ways this is the similar to that level of discrimination.

Click to expand...

Didn't know humans communicated by skin colour. The more you know, I guess.

Bubble181 said:

Rabbitgod: the Amish don't speak German, they speak an old and adapted version of Dutch. :-P

Click to expand...

Like Flemish? :smug:

My opinion is that if you live in a country with a language other than your native, you should at least learn the basic words. True, some people have more difficulty learning languages than others, and some languages are in themselves more difficult than others, but really, you're gonna live there the rest of your life - or at least a long time. Plenty of time to take a course or whatever.

Speak English mothersmurfer!

sixpackshaker said:

Anubinomicon said:

ok here's the problem... the people who are saying people shouldn't need to learn english well enough to order food are missing something.....

THIS WENT TO COURT TO SEE IF THE CHEESESTEAK SHOP OWNER WAS INFRINGING ON THE RIGHTS OF PEOPLE COMING TO HIS ESTABLISHMENT WHERE HE HAS THE RIGHT TO REFUSE SERVICE.

Click to expand...

No, it has been established by the Civil Rights Bill that running a public service does not give you carte blanche to discriminate. Every Whites Only Diner in America had to start serving everyone. In a lot of ways this is the similar to that level of discrimination.

Click to expand...

This.

As long as one is running a public service, he has to follow the law, and only refuse services on valid grounds.

Speak English mothersmurfer!

Denbrought said:

sixpackshaker said:

Anubinomicon said:

ok here's the problem... the people who are saying people shouldn't need to learn english well enough to order food are missing something.....

THIS WENT TO COURT TO SEE IF THE CHEESESTEAK SHOP OWNER WAS INFRINGING ON THE RIGHTS OF PEOPLE COMING TO HIS ESTABLISHMENT WHERE HE HAS THE RIGHT TO REFUSE SERVICE.

Click to expand...

No, it has been established by the Civil Rights Bill that running a public service does not give you carte blanche to discriminate. Every Whites Only Diner in America had to start serving everyone. In a lot of ways this is the similar to that level of discrimination.

Click to expand...

Didn't know humans communicated by skin colour. The more you know, I guess.

Click to expand...

It does not take much time to let the customer grab a menu and point to what he needs. I have served several people in my life that do not speak English. Yes, your 2 minute transaction now takes 3. But their money is just as green as mine.

Speak English mothersmurfer!

sixpackshaker said:

Denbrought said:

sixpackshaker said:

Anubinomicon said:

ok here's the problem... the people who are saying people shouldn't need to learn english well enough to order food are missing something.....

THIS WENT TO COURT TO SEE IF THE CHEESESTEAK SHOP OWNER WAS INFRINGING ON THE RIGHTS OF PEOPLE COMING TO HIS ESTABLISHMENT WHERE HE HAS THE RIGHT TO REFUSE SERVICE.

Click to expand...

No, it has been established by the Civil Rights Bill that running a public service does not give you carte blanche to discriminate. Every Whites Only Diner in America had to start serving everyone. In a lot of ways this is the similar to that level of discrimination.

Click to expand...

Didn't know humans communicated by skin colour. The more you know, I guess.

Click to expand...

It does not take much time to let the customer grab a menu and point to what he needs. I have served several people in my life that do not speak English. Yes, your 2 minute transaction now takes 3. But their money is just as green as mine.

Click to expand...

You're delivering subpar service, though. They won't know exactly what they're ordering unless there's clear pictures in the menu (or been told, or eaten there before, etc.), plus if they don't like something like salt or tomatoes (or they're allergic to an ingredient) you're not helping them by making things easier.
Also, while their money may be as green as yours, compare how much time it takes to serve 20 non-english speakers and 30 english speakers (going by your numbers).

Speak English mothersmurfer!

Denbrought said:

You're delivering subpar service, though. They won't know exactly what they're ordering unless there's clear pictures in the menu (or been told, or eaten there before, etc.), plus if they don't like something like salt or tomatoes (or they're allergic to an ingredient) you're not helping them by making things easier.
Also, while their money may be as green as yours, compare how much time it takes to serve 20 non-english speakers and 30 english speakers (going by your numbers).

Click to expand...

Good, if he is getting 20 Spanish speakers turned away a day. He is loosing nearly $200. I am just glad that the Spanish speaking restaurants in my home town want my money.

Speak English mothersmurfer!

sixpackshaker said:

Denbrought said:

You're delivering subpar service, though. They won't know exactly what they're ordering unless there's clear pictures in the menu (or been told, or eaten there before, etc.), plus if they don't like something like salt or tomatoes (or they're allergic to an ingredient) you're not helping them by making things easier.
Also, while their money may be as green as yours, compare how much time it takes to serve 20 non-english speakers and 30 english speakers (going by your numbers).

Click to expand...

Good, if he is getting 20 Spanish speakers turned away a day. He is loosing nearly $200. I am just glad that the Spanish speaking restaurants in my home town want my money.

Click to expand...

It's his decision. If he chose wrong, he'll get hurt economically. I still don't see why this should have legal ramifications.

rabbitgod said:

And customers are free to frequent who they please. If they choose a non english restaurant that is their choice.

Click to expand...

Of course customers are free to frequent who they please. Never said they weren't. I said immigrants should be required to demonstrate proficiency in english as part of their path to citizenship.

By requiring immigrants to learn english you are infringing on the inherent beauty of this country, the freedom to do as you like. By requiring immigrants to learn english you introduce big government into peoples everyday life. I'm suggesting that instead of forcing them to assimilate, instead, people simply stop catering to non-speakers.

Click to expand...

The freedom to do as you like... ahh, I remember when we still had that. It was back in the day before national security, nanny-statery, and political correctness trumped liberty.

And I don't see the Lousiana purchase as irrelevant. You said that if people are coming here they must assimilate, but when the U.S. did it, they don't have to. Sure that's the benefit of being the nation in power, but these immigrants are taking power. Cultural change happens whether we like it to or not. It sounds like the people who want required assimilation are scared that it's their turn to be assimilated.

Click to expand...

The US (former british colony, english speakers) bought Louisiana, not vice versa.

I don't disagree that english for citizenship should be required. Rather, it should be in English and if you can't read the test then too bad. I've already said this already so I won't delve further.

As far as assimilation and segragating, I agree. At no point did I say anything contrary. I just don't think it should be forced.

In the end I think you and I (and a few others) agree more than we disagree.

Click to expand...

So it seems. But I hold a firmer stance I think - I believe assimilation should be strongly pursued, not just left as an option. It's the first step to combating the festering multiculturalism that has metastasized throughout the nation, reinforcing (if not outright causing) many of the social problems we experience today.

Since when was Language a grounds for discrimination according to the Civil Rights Act? It seems to me that would be highly abuseable, not to mention potentially unintentional, way to use an act. Yes, some people might be willing to desciminate based on it, but that doesn't stop a large part of the population from being unable to interact with someone based on language differences.

Can you post where it says it in any of the Civil Rights Acts?

GasBandit said:

So it seems. But I hold a firmer stance I think - I believe assimilation should be strongly pursued, not just left as an option. It's the first step to combating the festering multiculturalism that has metastasized throughout the nation, reinforcing (if not outright causing) many of the social problems we experience today.

Click to expand...

Multiculturalism isn't a problem in and of itself. Yes, areas like the local Little Italy, German Town, China Town, and the like may have been cloisters of ethnic pride and culture in the US, but it was usually still possible to communicate with the people in those areas because they were at least TRYING to learn the language. Having differing cultures is NOT a problem if the different cultures are able to communicate freely and clearly. Yes, there will always be friction between them, but it's much better when the cops can understand the people they are supposed to be protecting.

But that's the problem today; the newly inbound immigrants aren't learning the language of the land because the US Government has seen fit to provide services for them in their native tongue. This sends the wrong message to them. Now the kids... we got the kids handled. I know my school district at least that we had classes for kids where part of the curriculum was getting them to learn English (or at least we did, until the 4th failed levy made us cut everything non-necessary ). Where is this for Adults? Does the US Government provide free English classes to people coming into the US? If not, that might be a good first step to combating this problem.

Oh and Gas... you might want to reword what you were saying. I could replace the word "multiculturalism" with a lot of words and you'd sound like a Southern Democrat during the Civil Rights Era, championing against racial equality. That's not a good position to be arguing from.

I'm not referring to mere pride and practice of that which is one's heritage, I'm talking about refusal to assimilate into American culture in favor of adherence to an unchanged version of your original language and culture. I see it happen all the time here in Texas. There's quite a bit of trouble going on in France and the Netherlands for the same reason, I hear (from people who live there).

Speak English mothersmurfer!

GasBandit said:

So it seems. But I hold a firmer stance I think - I believe assimilation should be strongly pursued, not just left as an option. It's the first step to combating the festering multiculturalism that has metastasized throughout the nation, reinforcing (if not outright causing) many of the social problems we experience today.

Click to expand...

You're sounding more like a Republican and less like a Libertarian here.

GasBandit said:

I'm not referring to mere pride and practice of that which is one's heritage, I'm talking about refusal to assimilate into American culture in favor of adherence to an unchanged version of your original language and culture. I see it happen all the time here in Texas. There's quite a bit of trouble going on in France and the Netherlands for the same reason, I hear (from people who live there).

Click to expand...

See, that's much better. Now you don't sound like a member of a lynch mob.

Speak English mothersmurfer!

Denbrought said:

sixpackshaker said:

Denbrought said:

You're delivering subpar service, though. They won't know exactly what they're ordering unless there's clear pictures in the menu (or been told, or eaten there before, etc.), plus if they don't like something like salt or tomatoes (or they're allergic to an ingredient) you're not helping them by making things easier.
Also, while their money may be as green as yours, compare how much time it takes to serve 20 non-english speakers and 30 english speakers (going by your numbers).

Click to expand...

Good, if he is getting 20 Spanish speakers turned away a day. He is loosing nearly $200. I am just glad that the Spanish speaking restaurants in my home town want my money.

Click to expand...

It's his decision. If he chose wrong, he'll get hurt economically. I still don't see why this should have legal ramifications.

Click to expand...

This. not to mention he doesn't have a "menu" that one can hold and point to exactly. maybe he does have some printed up, but really do you ever go to food stands? have you ever had to stand in line while someone who speaks english takes a ton of time ordering while you wait in the hot sun or cold weather? have you ever been to pat's or geno's in philly? the line stretches for a block sometimes, and it can take at least 20 min just to get up front to order.

Speak English mothersmurfer!

sixpackshaker said:

It does not take much time to let the customer grab a menu and point to what he needs. I have served several people in my life that do not speak English. Yes, your 2 minute transaction now takes 3. But their money is just as green as mine.

Click to expand...

Well yes, but that requires having hand held menus with detailed pictures on them printed up. And it also makes it more advantageous to not use peanut oil, cook the meat with onions, or do any other of the numerous things that potentially introduce someone's allergen into your product that can't be easily communicated via pictogram. Any of those steps can easily alter the taste of your product. Or you could always fire your cashiers and hire new ones who are bilingual, though that could lead to lawsuits from the people fired and turning away otherwise well qualified applicants.

Or you can, y'know, just refuse service to those who can't order (because if all the food names are in English and you don't speak it, you can't order). If a spanish speaker can learn the words "Cheese Steak with everything", they can order.

sixpackshaker said:

No, it has been established by the Civil Rights Bill that running a public service does not give you carte blanche to discriminate. Every Whites Only Diner in America had to start serving everyone. In a lot of ways this is the similar to that level of discrimination.

Click to expand...

No, no it's not. You can't learn a new skin color. You can learn a new language. This place would likely turn away someone speaking Gaelic, Flemish, German, Italian, Hebrew, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Spain-Spanish, or French just as soon as they would someone speaking Mexican Spanish. The issue is not "we don't like Mexicans". The issue is "our menu is in English and all our servers speak English, we have a twenty minute wait as it is, we're not gonna serve someone who makes that wait longer".

Speak English mothersmurfer!

MindDetective said:

GasBandit said:

So it seems. But I hold a firmer stance I think - I believe assimilation should be strongly pursued, not just left as an option. It's the first step to combating the festering multiculturalism that has metastasized throughout the nation, reinforcing (if not outright causing) many of the social problems we experience today.

Click to expand...

You're sounding more like a Republican and less like a Libertarian here.

Click to expand...

I don't agree with EVERY tenet of the libertarian party. For instance, I think their stance of strict pacifism and isolationism is also unworkable.

Gas, this is one point I agree with you on (and actually, I'd be willing to wager we agree on more things than we don't), so don't misconstrue it as an argument, but I'm curious to know specifically what social problems you consider to be caused by refusing to assimilate?

Speak English mothersmurfer!

Dorko said:

**snip**

Click to expand...

What are the qualifications to be a cashier at a Philly Stand?

Bathe every 3 days?

Grunt "you wunt cheez wit dat?"

You don't need to fire the server, hell the turn over rate in fast food is brutal.
A person that can serve more than one language is an asset to a restaurant. Especially in a town as cosmopolitan as Phily.

-- Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:18 pm --

Lally said:

Gas, this is one point I agree with you on (and actually, I'd be willing to wager we agree on more things than we don't), so don't misconstrue it as an argument, but I'm curious to know specifically what social problems you consider to be caused by refusing to assimilate?

Click to expand...

If you don't assimilate into the larger culture you will be stuck out as a second class citizen. If two groups that border one another don't communicate, they tend to have high rates of violence between them. Not being part of the larger economy limits the future of that group in attaining Middle Class status. I.E. living the American Dream. I hope that people don't travel thousands of miles and face dangerous conditions to make it here just to lock themselves into a position of only holding menial jobs for themselves and their children.

How much English does it take to order a cheesesteak anyway? "Whiz wit'", "Provolone wit-out", maybe "fries". A Spanish speaker would need to learn less than a dozen words to be able to get everything on the menu.

How many words would an Arab speaker need to learn?

Speak English mothersmurfer!

sixpackshaker said:

What are the qualifications to be a cashier at a Philly Stand?

Bathe every 3 days?

Grunt "you wunt cheez wit dat?"

You don't need to fire the server, hell the turn over rate in fast food is brutal.
A person that can serve more than one language is an asset to a restaurant. Especially in a town as cosmopolitan as Phily.

Click to expand...

This is a nationally famous, family owned cheese steak joint. I would imagine that their hiring standards are a touch hire than those of standard fast food places, and their turn over rate a fair piece lower.

Now, in discussing this with my father, he claims that this is no big deal. That immigrants always have tended to speak in their native tongue, their children were bilingual, and their grandkids english speakers. He also pointed out that similar controversies occurred over the failure to assimilate of German speakers a century or so ago. I think he is overly optimistic about the situation here, specifically because of the mindset that insisting someone learn english is infringing on their rights. I feel people like that are the majority, and in thrity years my kids will be taking required spanish classes because a huge percent of our population can't speak english. I hope I'm wrong.

Speak English mothersmurfer!

Everyone needs to learn two languages. There own, and Esperanto.

There, solved.

Speak English mothersmurfer!

Joe Johnson said:

Everyone needs to learn two languages. There own, and Esperanto.

Click to expand...

Let's start with their own, what do you say?

Speak English mothersmurfer!

>sigh<

slinks back to school

Whoa, fuck, Chazwozel's avatar is HUGE over here!!

Calleja said:

Whoa, fuck, Chazwozel's avatar is HUGE over here!!

Click to expand...

Holy SHIT! I'm on it!

Dave said:

Holy SHIT! I'm on it!

Click to expand...

Still big but not BIG.

And I can't get mine to work...

Me = Sad Finn now

North_Ranger said:

And I can't get mine to work...

Me = Sad Finn now

Click to expand...

PM me the picture and I'll see what I can do.