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Well, using the term "woman" very loosely, here is the next cover model for the SI Swimsuit Issue:

Barbie’s Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue Causes a Stir Online

In response to renewed criticism that Barbie promotes unhealthy body image in young girls, Mattel has started the "Unapologetic" campaign. Part of this is partnering with Sports Illustrated to put Barbie on the cover of one of the biggest mainstays of manufactured sexuality. Because... I don't know, is this some sort of corporate "YOLO!"?

And here I thought that the SI Swimsuit Issue couldn't get any more plastic.

Oh no, I remember the last time we had a thread about Barbie.

I'm out.

Just when I thought having Marge Simpson on the cover of Playboy was the most inane thing.

You know what.

Barbie should be apologetic. Because I never ONCE looked at a Barbie and wanted to look like barbie. No girl does, I think. I looked at Barbie because she dressed nice.

AND she was paleontologist, veterinarian, teacher, doctor, flapper, Egyptian queen, astronaut etc etc.

Any feminist that looks at barbie and concentrates on solely on how she looks is missing the point. Barbie was the only girls doll that WAS someone.

Also, I'm sorry Pez, but your last comment is perfectly nauseating. I just...ugh.

LittleSin said:

Barbie should be apologetic. Because I never ONCE looked at a Barbie and wanted to look like barbie. No girl does, I think. I looked at Barbie because she dressed nice.

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Studies have suggested otherwise, such as this one. "A total of 162 girls, from age 5 to age 8, were exposed to images of either Barbie dolls, Emme dolls (U.S. size 16), or no dolls (baseline control) and then completed assessments of body image. Girls exposed to Barbie reported lower body esteem and greater desire for a thinner body shape than girls in the other exposure conditions." While the long-term impact is less clear, it is easily shown that young girls are influenced, at least in the short term, by Barbie.

Also, I'm sorry Pez, but your last comment is perfectly nauseating. I just...ugh.

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I realized I could have chosen a better word than "plastic" because I did not mean to imply surgery, I meant to imply fakeness, because those photos are manipulated to the point that they are not representative of reality.

figmentPez said:

Studies have suggested otherwise, such as this one. "A total of 162 girls, from age 5 to age 8, were exposed to images of either Barbie dolls, Emme dolls (U.S. size 16), or no dolls (baseline control) and then completed assessments of body image. Girls exposed to Barbie reported lower body esteem and greater desire for a thinner body shape than girls in the other exposure conditions." While the long-term impact is less clear, it is easily shown that young girls are influenced, at least in the short term, by Barbie.



I realized I could have chosen a better word than "plastic" because I did not mean to imply surgery, I meant to imply fakeness, because those photos are manipulated to the point that they are not representative of reality.

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Damn. That is dense study. It seems that they kind of gloss over environmental stimuli? Mothers and fathers talking about their diets and their own body dissatisfaction? Peers focusing only on Barbies looks and nothing else? Media?

To focus solely on Barbie seems...I don't know.

It does mention that as the girls grow older they seem to not focus on the barbie anymore and become ambivalent towards her.

Also, I better understand you last comment now. Thank you.

I didn't know that magazine still existed.

I was hoping for Julianne Moore or Robin Wright (who IMDB indicates is only 48).

I am disappoint.

I think it's less problematic to talk about the dubious "Barbie Effect" (personally loved Barbie as a kid, didn't want to look like her because she's a doll), but the fact that one of the most recognizable toys for girls is being featured in what usually can be considered soft-core porn.

Celt Z said:

I think it's less problematic to talk about the dubious "Barbie Effect" (personally loved Barbie as a kid, didn't want to look like her because she's a doll), but the fact that one of the most recognizable toys for girls is being featured in what usually can be considered soft-core porn.

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Yeh. I haven't picked up a SI before so...I wasn't sure what the content was.

LittleSin said:

Barbie was the only girls doll that WAS someone.

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My Barbie was a rock star turned battered wife & hooker thanks to one of my cousins.

LittleSin said:

Yeh. I haven't picked up a SI before so...I wasn't sure what the content was.

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You and I aren't usually the target demographic for that issue, and neither are those who usually play with Barbies, so who thought this was a good idea?[DOUBLEPOST=1392340850,1392340653][/DOUBLEPOST]

WasabiPoptart said:

My Barbie was a rock star turned battered wife & hooker thanks to one of my cousins.

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When my best friend and I were at the age where we really didn't play with Barbies anymore, we did have one last summer-long story line that would make "Flowers in the Attic" seem sane by comparison. I think we were just trying to see who could make the other laugh harder with the insanity of it all.

I still have a collection of boxed barbies. XD

The ones I opened I coupled with my extensive collection of dinosaur models/action figures. I had a land of the lost thing on the go with story lines and a monarchy and a war...then a peace.

But that all changed when the fire dragons attacked.

I had a Barbie when I was a kid.

I apologize for nothing.

bhamv3 said:

I had a Barbie when I was a kid.

I apologize for nothing.

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Jet has some princess dolls Inclusing a Princess Peach.

He took Peach for show and tell. The other kids began making fun at him because she's pink and girly. Now Jet is scrutinizing everything he has, toys he loves, for signs of being 'girly'.

I feel so SAD about that!

When the 12" GI Joes came back a decade ago, my mother bought one for each of her grand-daughters. "I want their Barbies to date real men, not those wimpy Ken dolls."

LittleSin said:

Damn. That is dense study. It seems that they kind of gloss over environmental stimuli? Mothers and fathers talking about their diets and their own body dissatisfaction? Peers focusing only on Barbies looks and nothing else? Media?

To focus solely on Barbie seems...I don't know.

It does mention that as the girls grow older they seem to not focus on the barbie anymore and become ambivalent towards her.

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Well, it wouldn't be possible to study mothers and fathers talking about diet or body dissatisfaction in the same way. The testing methodology was that three groups of girls were told the same story, each with different accompanying images. One group saw Barbies, one group saw the Emme dolls, and the last saw images that didn't contain depictions of bodies of any type. After seeing the story, they were asked a series of questions about body image.

And, yes, the summary does mention that immediate impact was no evident in older girls. While it could be that they aren't impacted anymore and Barbie becomes a non-issue, it could also be that the influence isn't as immediate, or that the damage has already been done and the current effect is too small to measure. There are a lot of possibilities for why younger girls seeing Barbie has a measurable effect while it does not on older girls.

LittleSin said:

Jet has some princess dolls Inclusing a Princess Peach.

He took Peach for show and tell. The other kids began making fun at him because she's pink and girly. Now Jet is scrutinizing everything he has, toys he loves, for signs of being 'girly'.

I feel so SAD about that!

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Nooooooo! That's not right. He shouldn't feel bad about having dolls. Toys are toys. And those kids are obviously not gamers. Who puts down Peach?!

I feel like I should point out that I had a Barbie doll because I liked how she looked naked. I liked boobies even as a little kid. Probably a bit different from what Jet is doing with his dolls. Probably.

I still apologize for nothing!

bhamv3 said:

I feel like I should point out that I had a Barbie doll because I liked how she looked naked. I liked boobies even as a little kid. Probably a bit different from what Jet is doing with his dolls. Probably.

I still apologize for nothing!

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I had an exercise barbie doll, and two older sisters. They hated when I played with them because I always insisted on my barbie being naked. That and I'd pop off the heads of their dolls when they weren't looking.

I have to say, I feel bad for the small percentage of women who through genetics/metabolism are naturally close to "barbie-esque" proportions and are constantly blasted by feminists for not being shaped like "real" women.

Celt Z said:

Who puts down Peach?!

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Delirious, for one.

David said:

I have to say, I feel bad for the small percentage of women who through genetics/metabolism are naturally close to "barbie-esque" proportions and are constantly blasted by feminists for not being shaped like "real" women.

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No one is naturally close to "barbie-esque" proportions.

There is a more recent study on girls from age 6 -10 in which they were given a thin Barbie, average-sized Emme doll, or LEGOs to play with then they were evaluated. Their body image evaluations showed no significant difference between any of the three groups. The researchers also measured the girl's food intake after playing with the dolls. They theorized that the girls who played with Barbie would eat less. Instead they found the girls who played with Emme took in more food. (Anschutz, D. J., Engels, R. C., M., & E. (2010). The effects of playing with thin dolls on body image and food intake in young girls. Sex Roles, 63(9-10), 621-630. doi:http://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s11199-010-9871-6)

I did a paper within the last two years on body image and social influence. I found one study which said school aged girls are more greatly influenced by their peers and their mother's attitudes where diet and body image are concerned. This was seen in girls as young as 5. I don't think I have that class's folder saved anymore and don't have the time to sift through my school's online library to find the right article.

This is the actual cover for the 2014 Swimsuit Edition

This is the other article. It is not about maternal influence, but peer and media influence. I know I had another article for this paper which talked about the influence of the mother's attitudes and self-talk on their young daughters. But here is this...
http://www.willettsurvey.org/TMSTN/Gender/PeerAndMediaInfluencesOnYoungGirls.pdf

Bowielee said:

No one is naturally close to "barbie-esque" proportions.

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See, this kind of attitude is what I'm talking about!

HCGLNS said:

This is the actual cover for the 2014 Swimsuit Edition

Spoiler: spoillered because Gusto is a sensitive soul

View attachment 13890

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To clarify, most issues of the magazine will have that cover; 1,000 limited editions will have a Barbie cover, and the Barbie cover will appear on a billboard in Times Square as well. There's also a Swimsuit Issue themed doll being released.

David said:

See, this kind of attitude is what I'm talking about!

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I think he means that, despite some women looking closer to Barbie than others, Barbie's actual proportions are not humanly possible. For instance Barbie's waist is smaller around than her head, and she has a smaller waist than Dita Von Teese does when she's wearing a corset. Barbie's legs are 50% longer than her arms, while the average woman has legs that are only 20% longer.

While I don't support mocking, or otherwise harassing, anyone for their body-type, I also don't think it's unfair to point out that Barbie doesn't exist in real life.

The defense that Barbie's designers gave for her proportions was

What's your stance on Barbie's proportions?
Barbie’s body was never designed to be realistic. She was designed for girls to easily dress and undress.
So to get the clean lines of fashion at Barbie’s scale, you have to use totally unrealistic proportions?
You do! Because if you’re going to take a fabric that’s made for us, and turn a seam for a cuff or on the body, her body has to be able to accommodate how the clothes will fit her.

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Barbie is a doll, not a human, and even her makers admit that she's made the way that she is in order to make doll clothes work.

Eh, I was attempting to be funny, but it wasn't working. Apologies and kittens

I thought it was funny. I like kitties though so I'll pretend to be mad and get more kitty pictures!


Maybe I should have kept that thought in my head.

David said:

Eh, I was attempting to be funny, but it wasn't working. Apologies and kittens

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I missed the humor, sorry, but I wasn't offended. I thought the statements were a little odd, but I've seen enough random hate on the internet that I figured that maybe you had known some people attacked for their appearance. I certainly know people who have gotten hate for just being the size they naturally are.

I know you intended it as a joke, but He-Man actually carries some of the exact same problems.

Men are starting to become just as pressured as women about their looks.

Bowielee said:

I know you intended it as a joke, but He-Man actually carries some of the exact same problems.

Men are starting to become just as pressured as women about their looks.

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I've been searching for references on a study that showed that men are suffering from, or finally admitting to, body image issues in increasing numbers.

Personally, I was in my twenties before I learned that women can be sexually attracted to the male body. Up until then, I honestly thought that women were, at best, indifferent to the nude male form. I thought they liked suits and pretty faces, but otherwise were attracted to what a man could do, not what he looked like, (and I'm not the only guy who grew up thinking this way.) Up until my ex-fiancee managed to drill it into my head that some women actually want to have sex with men and see them nude, I never worried about body image, because what was the point? I hated my body, but mostly because it was sick and I didn't know why, but I figured it would all be okay as soon as I was healthy, and had a job, etc. Now I struggle with moderate body image issues. Even though I've started to realize that women do like male bodies, I still haven't been able to shake my long held belief that no woman would be interested in my body.

Sometimes I still have lingering doubts that any woman would want to see me naked. So I know exactly what you mean.

figmentPez said:

Personally, I was in my twenties before I learned that women can be sexually attracted to the male body. Up until then, I honestly thought that women were, at best, indifferent to the nude male form. I thought they liked suits and pretty faces, but otherwise were attracted to what a man could do, not what he looked like, (and I'm not the only guy who grew up thinking this way.)

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Understandable. Most sitcoms/comedies would support this point of view. (See anything starring Kevin James, for example).

I think everyone's missing the bigger problem here. Body issues from Barbie isn't the problem. A toy that is loved by millions of girls is going to be starring in an issue where most of the women are portrayed like HCGLNS posted. Even without Barbie on the cover, they are making a huge marketing campaign about how Barbie is going to be featured in this issue, including toy tie-ins. Yes, I know there are adult Barbie collectors (I still have mine, and my mother still buys special editions from time to time for collecting/selling), but there are a LOT of little girls who are going to want to read about Barbie, a number of those who don't even know what the Sport Illustrated Swimsuit Issue is. And whether their parents are aware of it or not, they're going to have to navigate images like the above to get to the article. And yes, while parents should be aware of what their children are doing/viewing, you shouldn't be featuring a popular girls' (or children's) toy among sexually explicit depictions of women. (I don't even know why they bother calling it a swimsuit edition when barely anyone is wearing part of the swimsuit, if they are at all.) If they were going to feature Barbie, then maybe it should have been a toy-themed issue, and leave the usual "swimsuit" pictorals for adults/teens who can't by Playboy yet.

LittleSin said:

Jet has some princess dolls Inclusing a Princess Peach.

He took Peach for show and tell. The other kids began making fun at him because she's pink and girly. Now Jet is scrutinizing everything he has, toys he loves, for signs of being 'girly'.

I feel so SAD about that!

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Yeah, Peach is such a weakling:


Warrior Princess Peach by Alexia-Jean-Grey

Kids Jet's age mostly don't know who Peach is. They just see a princess in a pink dress. Unfortunately, little kids learn these gender roles from their families, their friends, and what they read and watch. Our culture teaches kids that boys don't play with dolls or princesses or like the color pink - even at that young of an age. I wish it was a toy is a toy. When my son was about 2 or 3 I wanted to buy him a play kitchen because he liked helping me when I was cooking and I needed a way to get him out from underfoot when I was trying to make dinner. I got told by my parents and my in-laws that it wasn't a toy for boys despite all of them admitting that some of the greatest chefs of our time are all men. My husband cooks. My dad cooks. But a toy kitchen would make him less of a boy some how. It's ridiculous.

figmentPez said:

Yeah, Peach is such a weakling:

Warrior Princess Peach by Alexia-Jean-Grey

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Holy balls. I am going to have to show him that.

He's also started saying that Wonder Woman isn't strong because she's a girl and disliking some other femme superheros for the same reason.

Girls just aren't 'tough'.

Apparently they are also only allowed to play with pink legos and pink nerf guns. He has some pink legs and he has put them in a corner.

It's just such a radical change from the little boy that liked to wear princess crowns and pretend to do ballet one second and get in a gun war the next. I don't know if it's my doing or not....

WasabiPoptart said:

Kids Jet's age mostly don't know who Peach is. They just see a princess in a pink dress. Unfortunately, little kids learn these gender roles from their families, their friends, and what they read and watch. Our culture teaches kids that boys don't play with dolls or princesses or like the color pink - even at that young of an age. I wish it was a toy is a toy. When my son was about 2 or 3 I wanted to buy him a play kitchen because he liked helping me when I was cooking and I needed a way to get him out from underfoot when I was trying to make dinner. I got told by my parents and my in-laws that it wasn't a toy for boys despite all of them admitting that some of the greatest chefs of our time are all men. My husband cooks. My dad cooks. But a toy kitchen would make him less of a boy some how. It's ridiculous.

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Thankfully, we have had no complaints over his kitchen yet.

LittleSin said:

Holy balls. I am going to have to show him that.

He's also started saying that Wonder Woman isn't strong because she's a girl and disliking some other femme superheros for the same reason.

Girls just aren't 'tough'.

Apparently they are also only allowed to play with pink legos and pink nerf guns. He has some pink legs and he has put them in a corner.

It's just such a radical change from the little boy that liked to wear princess crowns and pretend to do ballet one second and get in a gun war the next. I don't know if it's my doing or not....

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A few months ago Noah tried telling me that women can't be warriors. I introduced him to Boudica, Joan of Arc, Tomoe Gozen, and Hatshepsut (not a warrior, but a highly successful Egyptian pharaoh which in itself took skill). At the end of my lecture my husband, shaking his head slowly, patted Noah on the back and said, "You'll learn one way or the other".

My son is obsessed with my Dyson vacuum, so from Christmas my friend got him his own mini one that looks exactly like mine (it even has some suction!). He spent all of Christmas and the two days following "vacuuming" the house, usually wearing his new construction belt and his dinosaur slippers. He still loves that vacuum and plays with it all the time. If someone ever tries to tell him a vacuum isn't for boys, I'll deck them.

I know boys reach that age where they're suddenly anti-anything perceived "girly", usually instructed by their peers. It just makes me sad that they feel like it has to be that way. (Sadder that there are some who never grow out of it.) I know it happens to girls, too, but I guess I was lucky that most of the friends I made in childhood never made me feel like I had to stop liking things because they were "for boys" or "uncool". They weren't always on board with it, but I never felt like I had to eliminate it from my life. And having supportive family helped, too, but man, there is no pressure like peer pressure in those years.

LittleSin said:

He's also started saying that Wonder Woman isn't strong because she's a girl and disliking some other femme superheros for the same reason.

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I don't know if it's still in print, but you should show him Greg Rucka's run on Wonder Woman, specifically the volume called Eyes of the Gorgan. She fights Medusa in a really nasty, tough battle.


Or the time she went toe-to-toe with Superman.

See also: this clip.

[DOUBLEPOST=1392428662,1392428389][/DOUBLEPOST]Or this one.

Celt Z said:

I know it happens to girls, too, but I guess I was lucky that most of the friends I made in childhood never made me feel like I had to stop liking things because they were "for boys" or "uncool". They weren't always on board with it, but I never felt like I had to eliminate it from my life. And having supportive family helped, too, but man, there is no pressure like peer pressure in those years.

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I got a lot of grief over things I did and liked because they were "unlady-like" or it was something only a male of the species should be interested in. Football, sciences, cars & motorcycles, weaponry...all for boys and I was odd for liking them. I also took dance for 12 years, played with make up and clothes, had dolls and liked to bake. That was acceptable. So I kept a lot of my interests to myself when I was younger.

ThatNickGuy said:

Or the time she went toe-to-toe with Superman.

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She's fought with Superman more than once, and that's made for pretty well established comic canon that Wonder Woman is on evenly matched with Superman in a fight.

Personally I like the version of Wonder Woman from The New Frontier, where she's taller than Superman is.

I have the feeling - but I'm seriously just going by anecdotal evidence here from my own circles -that the "that isn't feminine/ladylike enough for girls" thing is slowly petering out as it's regarded as anti-feminist and such (plus, doctors, engineers, the lot are just plain good jobs for kids to aspire to); while the "that's not manly/tough/masculine enough" for boys is still going strong and possibly even getting worse.

As stated earlier, I think everyone should feel free to play with what they want, one way or the other. I've seen parents "force" their girl to play with lego while she wanted to play with a doll "because ti's better for her development" and that's just rubbish too.

Bubble181 said:

while the "that's not manly/tough/masculine enough" for boys is still going strong and possibly even getting worse.

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My suspicion is that this continues because there is a minority of radical feminists who see the vilification of men as advantageous to women. The same feminists who say stuff like "The only way to make men equal to women is to bring them down" are the ones who are happy to see men continue to be defined, and limited, by stereotypes. The silent majority just allows that to happen, even if they don't find it to be true, they may not see how harmful it is to everyone. This silent majority also tends to speak up if men try to defend themselves, because it takes a cool head and a lot of wisdom to be able to speak up against the minority voices attacking men, without coming across as attacking all women in return. There is also another small minority within feminism who actually speak out against the old stereotypes for men, but their voice is harder to hear because they have to be heard above not only the factions within their own movement, but above all other social forces that wish to keep the status quo for men, as well.

Bowielee said:

I know you intended it as a joke, but He-Man actually carries some of the exact same problems.

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I don't think he meant it as a joke at all. It's just plain fact.

Celt Z said:

I know boys reach that age where they're suddenly anti-anything perceived "girly", usually instructed by their peers. It just makes me sad that they feel like it has to be that way. (Sadder that there are some who never grow out of it.)

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Sadder still when they get older and discover that most girls would love to date a guy who is a) a bit "girly" and b) not at all afraid to show it.

--Patrick

I tell you what the biggest consternation I had about he-man when I was a kid... it was that the Teela action figure wore this big snake-themed hood/garment that never ever showed up in the cartoon. What the hell was THAT all about, I'd still like to know?

Also, it's hard to remember that far back, I was around 3 or 4 at the time, but I think the Sorceress might have been the first reason I found to consider that, at some point, girls might have a purpose other than for hitting or discomforting via exposure to invertebrates and reptiles.

ThatNickGuy said:

Or the time she went toe-to-toe with Superman.

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I'm picturing her wielding Captain America's shield in this panel. And it is glorious.