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So this weekend AshburnerX gave me a beta Steam thing for the collectible card game. One thing this adds is the Steam market, where you can sell or buy stuff to use in games. The money is real money and goes in your "Steam Wallet". So I have two questions.

• What do you guys think of this?
• Does it make me a hypocrite that I don't mind this but I lost my shit on the Diablo III RMAH?

Dave said:

So this weekend AshburnerX gave me a beta Steam thing for the collectible card game. One thing this adds is the Steam market, where you can sell or buy stuff to use in games. The money is real money and goes in your "Steam Wallet". So I have two questions.

• What do you guys think of this?
• Does it make me a hypocrite that I don't mind this but I lost my shit on the Diablo III RMAH?

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Hasn't this been going on with tf2 hats forever?

What I've heard about D3 is that the RMAH was broken because you needed the items in it to just get through the game on harder settings. I don't see anything wrong with paying extra for things here and there. The problem is when it becomes game changing. I guess if someone in TF2 can get the equivalent of the BFG from Doom 2 that's a problem. If they're just getting cool skins or even different but not overpowered guns, I don't see anything wrong.

I can't wait to sell off a bunch of TF2 hats for more games!

Gilgamesh said:

I can't wait to sell off a bunch of TF2 hats for more games!

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Most things aren't able to be traded or sold on the market. And prices are pretty low for the most part - $.40 here & $.60 there. I've sold 4 things and have $2.80 in my Steam wallet. But that $2.80 can be used to buy newer games.

I'm tempted to set up our TF2 server again so people can start collecting stuff!

Dave said:

Most things aren't able to be traded or sold on the market. And prices are pretty low for the most part - $.40 here & $.60 there. I've sold 4 things and have $2.80 in my Steam wallet. But that $2.80 can be used to buy newer games.

I'm tempted to set up our TF2 server again so people can start collecting stuff!

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Yeah but I have some very old and very rare hats, I'm sure I can get a few bucks here and there.

I wonder how much a Max's Head sells for...

If it's even marketable, there are none for sale right now.

This was added entirely because people we already trading games for hats, but they didn't have an easy way to do it without one party having to risk losing everything (except to get a broker). I'm okay with this, if only because it makes it VERY easy to see the actual value of an item for trade and eliminates the risk of losing your stuff to a scumbag.

I also hear they are adding in rare drops of card boosters so it's actually possible to complete sets without trading for half of them now. Only getting 4 cards from FTL was stupid when I could still get doubles.

When you sell or buy something they show a trendline of what the items have been selling for. You can set the trendline for "week", "month", or "lifetime". If you get rooked it's your own fault.

Dave said:

If it's even marketable, there are none for sale right now.

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That would be due to rarity and not so much the marketability. Not to mention it's in Beta so not everyone has access.

If this is the precursor to a "Steam Used Games" market, I'm all for it.

Fuck, Gas, I would so love that! Sell my used games to whomever wants to take them from me and then get new ones from others who didn't like theirs? That would rock!

Dave said:

Fuck, Gas, I would so love that! Sell my used games to whomever wants to take them from me and then get new ones from others who didn't like theirs? That would rock!

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And the new golden age of pc gaming has begun.

Calm yo tits, yo... there's no guarantee that's going to happen, and I think a lot of publishers would absolutely lose their shit if steam started facilitating used PC game sales. But it shows that, from a technical standpoint at least, the hurdles are already behind. Now it's just the "but we don't make money from used sales" hurdles left.

Hey EA/Activision/Ubi/whoever, ask Chevrolet how much money they make from used car sales.

GasBandit said:

If this is the precursor to a "Steam Used Games" market, I'm all for it.

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They already have something like this for Europeans. If you live in the EU, you have the legal right to sell your digital games... so you can do it in Steam. But only if your account is from Europe.

The only reason we can't do this in the US is because there is no precedent for it. No one has taken anyone to court over selling their digital games/other programs.

AshburnerX said:

They already have something like this for Europeans. If you live in the EU, you have the legal right to sell your digital games... so you can do it in Steam. But only if your account is from Europe.

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That's true, but I think it would (literally) take an act of congress to get that to happen stateside.

GasBandit said:

That's true, but I think it would (literally) take an act of congress to get that to happen stateside.

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Not really. A court could declare that first sale applies to digital goods as well and then companies would have to deal with it. It just hasn't been brought up yet.

AshburnerX said:

Not really. A court could declare that first sale applies to digital goods as well and then companies would have to deal with it. It just hasn't been brought up yet.

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Soon this will be in the Politics forum, but... the companies haven't "sold" you something, they "licensed" it, and according to the terms of said license, it's non-transferable. And when you "buy" the physical game disc from a store, I have no idea what the hell you have actually "bought" other than packaging. You don't have the same "rights" to it as if it was "sold" to you. Now IANAL, but IMO that's why it hasn't been brought before a court, because the contract you agreed to (EULA, or the like) probably says something almost exactly like what I put above.

That being said, I 100% agree that copyrighted goods should be subject to the First Sale doctrine in 100% of cases. Digital or not. As was said above, Chevrolet has no rights to a used car, and neither should any original creator. But the better example is this: the publishers don't make money off of used BOOK stores either, and everybody (practically everybody at least) agrees that those are perfectly legal, and good. Same with Libraries.

That's what really needs to happen actually. The ALA (American Library Association) needs to get in on this. Once they get all digital books treated the same as physical books, the rest will follow suit rapidly. Anybody know someone in the ALA?

AshburnerX said:

Not really. A court could declare that first sale applies to digital goods as well and then companies would have to deal with it. It just hasn't been brought up yet.

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I seem to recall reading somewhere that first sale expressly does not apply to digital goods in America. One of the provisions of the DMCA perhaps?

Hasn't there been talk from Valve about creating a used game market on Steam? I could have sworn they've been discussing the issue.

Dave said:

If it's even marketable, there are none for sale right now.

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It is not marketable. I'm still tempted to sell all my vintage stuff. Even at a quarter a piece I might be able to get enough to buy a couple of games at the Summer Sale.

I'm a little puzzled as to the rhyme or reason for what can be sold on there and what can't. My Trine 2 pre-order items are marketable, as is my Portal 2 pin, but not Ellis' Cap or the Sam & Max items.

It seems that only Geniuine, Vintage or Unusual items are marketable right now, as are tools like paint and renaming tags. I'm not sure why this is the limitation. I get that not everything needs to, or should be, sold, but Max's Severed Head is tradeable, so I don't see why it shouldn't be marketable. Maybe it'll be put on the market once the system is out of beta.

Eriol said:

Now IANAL, but IMO that's why it hasn't been brought before a court, because the contract you agreed to (EULA, or the like) probably says something almost exactly like what I put above.

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Legal scholars have held these EULA to be a joke, for mainly two reasons:

1.) You can't agree to anything until after you've bought the game and returning said game isn't always an option (such as with MMOs or other titles with keys). There is NO OTHER example of this kind of legalmaneuver in business. For this to be legal, you'd have to be able to read the contract before buying the game. You'd also have to be refunded your money if you decline. Because this doesn't happen, the contract is invalid.

2.) You aren't always notified of the existence of the contract before buying it.

So, again... the reason why this still exists is because it hasn't gone to court.

figmentPez said:

It seems that only Geniuine, Vintage or Unusual items are marketable right now, as are tools like paint and renaming tags. I'm not sure why this is the limitation. I get that not everything needs to, or should be, sold, but Max's Severed Head is tradeable, so I don't see why it shouldn't be marketable. Maybe it'll be put on the market once the system is out of beta.

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What -I- want to know is why I can't sell Refined metal. I'm almost guessing that the reason they are restricting these items is so they can make keys (which can be bought) the standard of currency instead of Refined Metal, Bill's Hats, and Earbuds.

I would totally sell games I have in my Steam list that I bought but have never played and will likely never play.

I would also sell Amnesia: The Dark Descent, because I'm too much of a pansy to play that game. I played an hour, then noped my way out.

I would love that STEAM market for used games just to trade games between myself and a friend.

I would love to be able to give or sell games on Steam. When I finish, I could gift it to a friend. Or hell, let them borrow it, or something.

bhamv3 said:

I would totally sell games I have in my Steam list that I bought but have never played and will likely never play.

I would also sell Amnesia: The Dark Descent, because I'm too much of a pansy to play that game. I played an hour, then noped my way out.

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I'll finish the game if you will. I, too, am too much of a coward. I had to beg my finance to sit next to me while I play it.