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and why their hold on the big super hero movie business might be in jeopardy if they don't open the coffers up a bit. The disparity in the cast pay for Avengers was especially shocking.

http://www.deadline.com/2013/05/robert-downey-jr-avengers-marvel-negotiations-fight/

Capitalism ruins everything.

Charlie Don't Surf said:

Capitalism ruins everything.

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Makes a lot of things possible too.

Reverent-one said:

Makes a lot of things possible too.

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like slavery

Charlie Don't Surf said:

like slavery

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Charlie Don't Surf said:

like slavery

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Really? Capitalism is what makes slavery possible? That's what you're going with?

But seriously, Marvel needs to pull its head out its ass. They're making an insane amount of money, there's no need to be stingy. This is exactly the sort of thing that will kill their momentum and bring this all to a grinding halt. Recasting everyone because they dared to ask for money will ruin audience enthusiasm.

Dave said:

Probably better reserved for the politics board, Charlie Don't Surf and friends. So while I don't mind going a bit off course, the thread jack hit in comment #2 and devolved from there.

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Yeah, I was pretty bummed that it was nigh a instant thread crusher.

I apologize for my own contributions to that tangent.

On topic, this isn't terribly surprising, as I heard a while back that RDJ negotiated for a percentage of the box office take, and that obviously paid out big time. I doubt Marvel's was or will be willing to make such a deal again. Which should make the contract negotiations RDJ has coming up interesting. I want to agree with Tress about the dangers Marvel faces by recasting, but let's be honest, they've done it with Terrence Howard and Ed Norton already, and no one really cared. Even a more large scale recasting might not hurt the money coming in for it to not be worth paying new actors less.

Hulk had already been recast so many times that it didn't matter and Rhodie is a minor side character. I think replacing Tony Stark or say, Nick Fury is going to be a completely different thing.

Heh, though I didn't get to it in my post, those are the two that I would put the most irreplaceable side of the spectrum. There's a lot of other characters in riskier positions though.

I think a large amount of changes all at once would hurt them pretty badly.

Yeah, recasting the whole thing would definitely backfire.

Eventually the actors will get too old and/or the audience will get burnt out. Perhaps they should "retire" the characters after Avengers 2 and start with a new group of characters. By that time, Disney will also be releasing Star Wars films and we'll see another stab at reintroducing a familiar universe with new characters.

The nice thing is, they could easily do that. The Avengers (and Justice League...and most superhero teams) have had a rotating cast and it hasn't always had the big guns of Cap, Thor, and Iron Man. Sometimes one or two of them, but sometimes none of them.

They could do a team of Ant Man, Scarlet Witch & Quicksilver, Hercules (to fill in for Thor), Black Panther, and Vision.

Actually. I'd watch that.

Um I think RDJ is being a complete douche to be honest. He had fallen way off the celebrity radar until IM -made him- again.

Gilgamesh said:

Um I think RDJ is being a complete douche to be honest. He had fallen way off the celebrity radar until IM -made him- again.

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He's the one pulling for the rest of the cast to be better compensated.

Gilgamesh said:

Um I think RDJ is being a complete douche to be honest. He had fallen way off the celebrity radar until IM -made him- again.

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As Frank said, I think you've misread the article - RDJ is throwing his weight around to force marvel to pay his co-stars more. Whereas Joss Whedon is content to close his eyes and pretend there's nothing wrong.

I didn't mis read:

He should exceed his biggest payday to date — that $50M from The Avengers which I’ve learned was more like $70M-$80M now that the film is all in. But it’s really Avengers 2 where he’ll clean up big-time

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And saying to other outlets that Marvel better show him more money for Avengers 2. ”I don’t know,” he said on The Daily Show. ”I had a long contract with them and now we’re gonna renegotiate.”

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“Some received only $200,000 for Avengers and Downey got paid $50M. On what planet is that OK?”

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Sure he's fighting for them NOW, but he didn't mind taking the pay he did.

He signed those contracts after Iron Man 1. What the fuck was he supposed to do, say no thanks, you can keep your money giant conglomerate owned by Disney?

No one knew it was gonna be so massive or else Marvel sure as shit wouldn't have let him get such a chunk.

I see you're not quoting where much of the cast looks to Robert as their leader and such too.

But sure, Downey's the douche.

Whedon has his head in the sand and Marvel's sounding like the real badguy here. They're going to make shitloads of cash over the next 2-3 years with sequels and Avengers 2. Open up that wallet.

CynicismKills said:

Whedon has his head in the sand and Marvel's sounding like the real badguy here. They're going to make shitloads of cash over the next 2-3 years with sequels and Avengers 2. Open up that wallet.

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Whedon acting like nothing's wrong (while he has a deal reportedly worth nearly 100 million) is much worse than RDJ actively campaigning for his castmates.

Frank - He might be campaigning for his castmates but he's also campaigning for even bigger paychecks. Don't give me that contracts during IM1 nonsense, he's looking for $70+ mil when whatever he's fighting for his castmates won't even come close. So yeah, he's doing a good thing for his castmates but he's not helping them in the end by upping his own paycheck even more. If they didn't have to pay him so much, they'd maybe be open to paying the cast more. Look at Conan O Brian, he took a settlement of milliions and gave most of it to his cast/crew that were getting fucked over. That's how you help those who help you, not ask for more for yourself then say, -Oh and could you toss the little ones a bit more bone?-

Should Marvel pay the cast more? Absolutely.
Should Whedon fight harder for his actors? Absolutely.
Is RDJ fighting for his castmates? Absolutely.
Is he being a douche by upping his already beyond high salary requirements? Absolutely.

Gilgamesh said:

FrankDon't give me that contracts during IM1 nonsense

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He quite literally signed the deal for both sequels and the Avengers movie in 2007, after the first movie. That shit was set in stone. I have no idea what your issue is there.

Why the fuck shouldn't he try for more money? Seriously? If he can get more, why shouldn't he try for more? Your reaction to this reminds me of people complaining about unions. It's seemingly ok for giant corporations to milk as much money as possible, but God fucking forbid people try to get more money from the giant corporations.

Conan gave 12 million of the 45 million he negotiated to be released from his contract to his employees. Generous yes, BUT WHY DIDN'T HE GIVE MORE? WHAT A DOUCHE!

You're being ridiculous. You singled out the oddest choice to attack out of that whole article.

What the hell does anyone need with $50 million dollars or more for one movie? Some actors are ridiculously overpaid.

If RDJ wanted his co-workers to get more money, he should be willing to take a pay cut and let them have some of his own damn profits. Even it out a little.

ThatNickGuy said:

What the hell does anyone need with $50 million dollars or more for one movie? Some actors are ridiculously overpaid.

If RDJ wanted his co-workers to get more money, he should be willing to take a pay cut and let them have some of his own damn profits. Even it out a little.

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Disney has made a couple Billion off RDJ. I guess he has value.

I guess. If he wants his fellow actors to have a similar cut of the pie, that's fine. But to ask for more when he's already making $50 million? That's ridiculous.

I read it like his contract was something along the lines of "20 million plus a share of the profits." He isn't demanding $70 million, he's just hoping it will be a big success again.

I didn't intend to derail the thread and wasn't trolling earlier. I meant what I said.

These movies are about the stars in a way unlike Avatar (previous box office king). When they make more money than any movie before, the star (s), in this case RDJ, is gonna make more money than any movie star before.

ThatNickGuy said:

I guess. If he wants his fellow actors to have a similar cut of the pie, that's fine. But to ask for more when he's already making $50 million? That's ridiculous.

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Coke and high class hookers are not cheap Nick.

also lol at the idea that he'd give up tens of millions to split with his costars. That's beyond naive. Why don't the CEOs take half their $50M salary and spread it around in a raise to all their employees?

"Sure we make a lot of money, but we spend a lot, too." - Patrick Ewing

And we know where he spent it.

I read it like his contract was something along the lines of "20 million plus a share of the profits." He isn't demanding $70 million, he's just hoping it will be a big success again.

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Exactly, which is why I am kind of scratching my head at this whole argument.

RDJ, when he set up his contract, put in a clause where he gets part of the profits of the movie. Many actors do this. He is not asking for them to shell out 70 million whether the movie is a hit or a flop. This is why, in hindsight, Marvel is rather peeved with him. He took away 50 million from Avengers and so far has gotten 35 million from IM3 due to this clause. He is "expecting" that when the dust clears on the Avengers sequel he will likely walk away with 70 million, but it's only an estimate.

So let me ask you, what do you expect RDJ to do? Tell Disney/Marvel he is fine removing his profit clause from the contract if the money goes to his cast mates? Yes, because Disney is so well known for honoring everyone that works for them. Maybe have him just make nothing but profits and give up the millions he signed up for as a base salary? Okay then, what do you expect RDJ to do if out of nowhere the next Avengers turns into a commercial failure? He just gave up a very high paycheck for something that turned into a gamble. Will he still make a lot? Yes, but why should he give up his own money because the company paying him wants to be cheap with the others?

All he can do is use his "star power" to fight for the other actors to make more money. He never had to do this. He could have sat in his trailer, sipping million dollar frosty frappachinos, and not gotten on the bad side of Disney/Marvel for a bunch of other actors. Yet, he did, and possibly hurt his own chances for continuing his million dollar goose egg now that his contract is up. I don't consider that douchy at all.

Charlie Don't Surf said:

also lol at the idea that he'd give up tens of millions to split with his costars. That's beyond naive. Why don't the CEOs take half their $50M salary and spread it around in a raise to all their employees?

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Depends on what you mean by "all their employees." $50m among 7 costars is fairly substantial; $50m among every employee in a large corporation, say 1m employees (fewer than Walmart employs), is only $50/person/year.

Not that I'm saying RDJ should or shouldn't do it, just that I'm not sure the argument is quite the same as a CEO divvying up her salary.

This is just a stupid argument. RDJ is a big part of the success for these films, and he's been paid handsomely for it. Now, he thinks his colleagues should enjoy some of those profits as well. The studio is going the complete other direction and trying to lowball everyone, with threats of recasting as intimidation tactics. How in the world someone decided RDJ is the bad guy in all this is dumbfounding.

Tress agreeing with Charlie Don't Surf ? All is right with the world.

Also noone said RDJ was a bad guy in this situation. Just that he's being a bit of a hypocritical douche that owes any semblance of success of his crashed career to these movies.

Gilgamesh said:

Also noone said RDJ was a bad guy in this situation. Just that he's being a bit of a hypocritical douche that owes any semblance of success of his crashed career to these movies.

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What does this have to do with anything though? Yes, the movies helped him succeed. Should he be sitting on his hands and knees begging Disney/Marvel for forgiveness because a movie they hired him for helped bring him out of the funk he was in? Fact is, he was hired to be in the movie. He knew how to negotiate it. He did his job and got paid for it. He does not "owe" Disney/Marvel anything. That is not how business works.

It's like saying that because my boss is employing me right now, for which I am thankful, that I can't call him out on the bullshit he pulls every other week involving the other employees. That guy in the back is not allowed medical insurance while I am? Even though his job is more dangerous? Oh well I better not fight for that other guy to have insurance too because that would make me a hypocrite since this job helped save me from being homeless! WOOP WOOP WOOP.

I don't see how the guy making 50 million telling the company with the movie (just avengers alone) making 1.5 billion to pay his coworkers more is the bad guy because he didn't split up his single digit percentage of the pie up between them.

Let's put it in a graphical context. One # is 10 million dollars.

RDJ's piece
#####
(maybe ####### if things go well)

Avengers' box office gross:
#######################################################################################################################################################

(rounded down about 1.8 million)

Yeah, damn Downey, that greedy guy.

Wasn't Iron Man the first Marvel Films movie? Did you think that maybe Marvel owes RDJ for the huge sweeping success?

Charlie Don't Surf said:

Wasn't Iron Man the first Marvel Films movie? Did you think that maybe Marvel owes RDJ for the huge sweeping success?

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I'm a bit fuzzy on who made what marvel movie, but do X-men and Spider-Man count?

GasBandit said:

I'm a bit fuzzy on who made what marvel movie, but do X-men and Spider-Man count?

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No, Sony made both of those, I think. That's why they don't appear in the Avengers. Marvel opened their own studio for Iron Man

No. I think he means all these avengers movies, which iron man was the first of.

Gilgamesh said:

Tress agreeing with Charlie Don't Surf ? All is right with the world.

Also noone said RDJ was a bad guy in this situation. Just that he's being a bit of a hypocritical douche that owes any semblance of success of his crashed career to these movies.

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Actually, I think he owes his upswing to appearing in plenty of critically acclaimed movies post-career destruction such as Kiss, Kiss, Bang, Bang, Good Night and Good Luck, Scanner Darkly and Zodiac. Even without Iron Man, he hit the summer blockbuster territory with Tropic Thunder.

So here's the deal. Every so often a movie series makes it big. When everyone's contract is up they all start fighting.

Recently the actors like to take the fights public because they get more sympathy when they show the disparity between their pay and the movie's gross profits.

The studios then start talking about replacing them in order to temper expectations.

Then, eventually, they all sit down and agree on a private deal and go about making the next set of movies.

This isn't a new pattern, and its not unexpected. They replaced Terrence Howard with don cheedle from one to two, and no one cares now. Everyone was up in arms when Richard Harris died and Michael gambon replaced him for dumbledore in Harry potter, and today many still claim he doesn't fully embody dumbledore from the books, but that isn't preventing anyone from going and watching and enjoying the movies.

So the threat isn't idle.

However, just like the Simpsons voice actors every few years, this little song and dance will go on.

It's simply part of the negotiation process, and it'll play out over time.

Just keep in mind that even though an actor currently playing the part embodies it right now, that doesn't exclude the possibility that another actor wouldn't actually be better at it. I know few people who actually believe that the first person to play batman or James Bond on the silver screen was the best.

Anyone who claims the actors that have embodied the role so far is the absolute best choice possible is little more than a fanboy with a short sight.

stienman said:

I know few people who actually believe that the first person to play batman or James Bond on the silver screen was the best.

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I agree with everything you've said, but there are a ton of people who think Sean Connery was the best Bond.

And not Bob Simmons.

http://www.007james.com/articles/who_played_james_bond.php

Yeah, that's nitpicking since he wasn't actually in the real movie, just the shot sequence.

OK you caught me, I skimmed. For some reason I always thought Connery was the second

Frank said:

I agree with everything you've said, but there are a ton of people who think Sean Connery was the best Bond.

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True, and its not the best example, but I suspect if you survey the average 25 to 35 year old, who the studios target, you'd probably find different results, simply because as good as those were at the time, they are clearly dated and aren't being shown on TV as often as they were when you and I were in our formative years. Only those that go out of their way to watch them (bond marathons, etc) would have basis to compare bonds over the years.

Why did Disney give Mickey Mouse only three fingers?