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The hardest thing to explain to ESL/EFL students.

Nov 24, 2012#1

JCM

Really, after working in 17 countries as an English teacher, I have yet to find a single group of non-English speakers that get the measurements used in America, and are able to use it (in some cases, some even refuse to believe such measurements exist).

Really, can anyone tell my why these even exist anymore?

Nov 24, 2012#2

PatrThom

Because that's the way we've always done it.

--Patrick

Nov 24, 2012#3

strawman

JCM said:
Really, can anyone tell my why these even exist anymore?

The cost to change over, including impact to the economy during the changeover, can be measured in the trillions.

Nov 24, 2012#4

Ravenpoe

stienman said:
The cost to change over, including impact to the economy during the changeover, can be measured in the trillions.

Trillions of WHAT? :aaah:

Nov 24, 2012#5

Zappit

Ravenpoe said:
Trillions of WHAT?

RULERS.

Nov 24, 2012#6

blotsfan

I get the issues with the english system, but I will always defend the date. When someone asks you what the date is, you'd say "November 24th, 2012." I guess you could say "The 24th of November, 2012" but I can't imagine someone actually saying that without trying to sound ridiculous.

Nov 24, 2012#7

Chad Sexington

I say "24th of November."

Nov 24, 2012#8

Zappit

Chad Sexington said:
I say "24th of November."

Do you say it while wearing a monocle?

Could you?

Please?

Nov 24, 2012#9

WasabiPoptart

The military (at least I know the Navy does) always uses day, month, year when writing dates. I've gotten used to seeing it and hearing it just like military time.

Nov 24, 2012#10

Chad Sexington

Zappit said:
Do you say it while wearing a monocle?

Could you?

Please?

You send me the monocle, I'll put it on YouTube.

Nov 24, 2012#11

North_Ranger

stienman said:
The cost to change over, including impact to the economy during the changeover, can be measured in the trillions.

I'm trying not to laugh out loud here...

Nov 24, 2012#12

strawman

Take, for example, http://www.neowin.net/news/nasa-it-would-cost-370-million-dollars-to-conver-to-metric

The best course of action is for the various industries to start using metric on new products as the old products fall away, and in fact that's what many of them are doing, NASA included.

But we can't simply switch over at one time, and while its been many decades in process, it can still be cheaper to design and manufacture a product in imperial units, so a lot of new designs still use imperial.

It would cost trillions to force the issue, and there's an argument regarding whether the US government has the authority to force the states to force individuals and businesses to stop using the imperial system.

I suggest that if its such an international problem, then other nations impose trade sanctions on the US until we adopt it.

Otherwise, who cares?

No one seems to have a problem with telling time and date, and that system is just as odd. If they don't want to learn imperial teach them how to use a conversion calculator.

Nov 24, 2012#13

North_Ranger

Good God, is there anything that can't be turned into an issue about state rights?

Nov 24, 2012#14

strawman

North_Ranger said:
Good God, is there anything that can't be turned into an issue about state rights?

Nope!

Nov 24, 2012#15

North_Ranger

stienman said:
Nope!

You people are seriously f***ed up...

Nov 24, 2012#16

Emrys

Yep.

Nov 24, 2012#17

Terrik

I don't even bother anymore. After 5 years in China, I said screw it, and went along with the metric system.

IT'S A FINE 14 DEGREES TODAY. I THINK I SHALL WEAR A LIGHT JACKET.

Nov 24, 2012#18

strawman

North_Ranger said:
You people are seriously f***ed up...

Oh? So you'd be fine with the EU imposing anything they like on Finland? You've joined the EU in order to gain some of the benefits of a union, but surely you don't want to cede your government to the committees of the EU?

Nov 24, 2012#19

North_Ranger

I said that jokingly, stien ol' boy. Calm down, stress reduces sperm levels. And you're still a little short for a full a cappella choir

[DOUBLEPOST=1353807086][/DOUBLEPOST]That being said... my apologies if I insulted. That was not my intention.

Nov 24, 2012#20

Silent Bob

Nov 24, 2012#21

figmentPez

Today is 2012_11_24

That way the files sort correctly on my computer.

Nov 24, 2012#22

JCM

Ravenpoe said:
Trillions of WHAT?

Brazilians

Nov 24, 2012#23

Ravenpoe

JCM said:
Brazilians

Nov 25, 2012#24

Frank

Man, it was -12 today. That's chilly no matter where you go.

And a person can shit on America all it wants for Imperial measurements, Britain will always be worse for continuing to use stones as a measurement for mass.

Oy, that fat bloke is 13 stone, he is.

IS THAT A LOT?

I don't fucking know!

I think it may be, because he used the word fat.

It's 182 pounds, that's not that big.

Maybe he's only 1/12 of a chain tall.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

Nov 25, 2012#25

Bowielee

From what I understand, 15-16 stone is obese for an average sized person. Then again, I only know that form of measurement from watching the Fat Fighters sketches on Little Britain.

Nov 25, 2012#26

fade

Another impediment to change is pretty simple. How often do you need to convert feet to miles or--even less likely--yards to miles? How often do you need to convert meters to kilometers in daily life? Arguments about how difficult conversion is fall on deaf ears because it's fairly irrelevant.

Nov 25, 2012#27

Siska

Guess that depends on what you do for a living. For some knowing that a cubic decimeter equals one liter and that one liter of water weighs approximately (depending on temperature) one kilogram might be very handy in their day to day life. Even better, it's easy to calculate other measurements as well because they are all based on the number 10. And it's the same everywhere, all over the world. While for example an English gallon (and other measurements) is not the same size as an American gallon.

Nov 25, 2012#28

checkeredhat

The grey are countries using the metric system:

Get with the times, Myanmar, Liberia, and the United States of America!

Nov 25, 2012#29

GasBandit

At this point, I think we continue to use it merely because our cultural dominance coupled with a strange measurement system continues to irritate the rest of the world :troll:

Celsius is WAY more stupid than Fahrenheit, however. I like my temperature scale of 0-100 to be based on human tolerances instead of water's tolerances.

Fahrenheit:
0 = Really freakin cold, bundle up
100 = Really freakin hot, drink lots/strip down

Celsius:
0 = Rather cold I guess, probably want a coat
100 = You and everything else died dozens of degrees ago. Why even measure this high?

Nov 25, 2012#30

Frank

GasBandit said:
At this point, I think we continue to use it merely because our cultural dominance coupled with a strange measurement system continues to irritate the rest of the world

Celsius is WAY more stupid than Fahrenheit, however. I like my temperature scale of 0-100 to be based on human tolerances instead of water's tolerances.

Fahrenheit:
0 = Really freakin cold, bundle up
100 = Really freakin hot, drink lots/strip down

Celsius:
0 = Rather cold I guess, probably want a coat
100 = You and everything else died dozens of degrees ago. Why even measure this high?

Dumb. 0 being the freezing point of water, that's stupid. BRINE SHOULD BE 0!

Nov 25, 2012#31

Jax

GasBandit said:
Celsius is WAY more stupid than Fahrenheit, however. I like my temperature scale of 0-100 to be based on human tolerances instead of water's tolerances.

Fahrenheit:
0 = Really freakin cold, bundle up
100 = Really freakin hot, drink lots/strip down

Do you feel the same with other measurements as well, like measuring speed? Instead of using mph, how about going from "0 = Really freakin slow" to "100 = Really freakin fast"

Nov 25, 2012#32

Bubble181

GasBandit said:
Fahrenheit:
0 = most places won't ever get here except somewhere in the middle of the night in winter.
100 = somewhere in the neighbourhood of having a fever, butn ot quite there yet.

Celsius:
0 = Time to put on those snow tires, drove more carefully.
100 = Hey, water for your tea is ready

FTFY

Really, each measurement scale for temperature has its own benefits. It's simply kinda useless to use the same system for weather, for human body temperature, for cooking, in chemistry, etc. In each use, you have a different need for precision (is it 10.1 or 10.2 out? I don't care), different averages, different expected ranges.
Celsius fits into the metric system, with one liter of water being one kilogram and one cubic decimeter at sea level.

And why is it useful to have a metric system? Because I can tell you exactly how much weight a roof needs to be able to carry if you tell me it has to be able to take 10 cm of water per m² at a time (100 kg per m²) or 100 liters at a time (still 100kg) or whatever. If I ask you how much weight is involved if there's 3 inches of water on a square yard, or 20 gallons of water per 10 square foot - happy calculating.

It's EASIER.

And, stienman, for the record, I'd gladly kill off Belgium and give half of its powers to the EU

Nov 25, 2012#33

Tress

We'll think about switching to the metric system when everyone in the world drives on the right side of the road, as it should be.

Nov 25, 2012#34

blotsfan

Jax said:
Do you feel the same with other measurements as well, like measuring speed? Instead of using mph, how about going from "0 = Really freakin slow" to "100 = Really freakin fast"

Considering people interact with 0 mph a lot more than they interact with Absolute 0, I don't get your point.

Nov 25, 2012#35

ThatNickGuy

That ball of string, by the way, was measured in Metric because CANADIAN!

Nov 25, 2012#36

GasBandit

Bubble181 said:
And, stienman, for the record, I'd gladly kill off Belgium and give half of its powers to the EU

Yeah, but that's because you come from belgium, which is pretty much a non-country already.

Nov 25, 2012#37

JCM

GasBandit said:
At this point, I think we continue to use it merely because our cultural dominance coupled with a strange measurement system continues to irritate the rest of the world

True story.

No matter whatever system a country uses, TVs and Monitors will always be sold according to inches.

Nov 26, 2012#38

tegid

I came in here not knowing that ESL means English as a Second Language and expecting something related to Sign Language instead. Still, I wasn't disappointed because SO FU**ING TRUE.

Re: Changing vs not changing units, in some cases the change IS necessary. Nasa, for instance, collaborates with scientists from all over the world, and the conversions can be a problem. You don't do science or advanced technology in imperial, come on.[DOUBLEPOST=1353917063][/DOUBLEPOST]

blotsfan said:
Considering people interact with 0 mph a lot more than they interact with Absolute 0, I don't get your point.

We're talking about Celsius, where 0 is the freezing point of water, not Kelvin where 0 is Absolute 0, so I don't get YOUR point.

Nov 26, 2012#39

Ravenpoe

tegid said:
I came in here not knowing that ESL means English as a Second Language and expecting something related to Sign Language instead. Still, I wasn't disappointed because SO FU**ING TRUE.

Re: Changing vs not changing units, in some cases the change IS necessary. Nasa, for instance, collaborates with scientists from all over the world, and the conversions can be a problem. You don't do science or advanced technology in imperial, come on.[DOUBLEPOST=1353917063][/DOUBLEPOST]

We're talking about Celsius, where 0 is the freezing point of water, not Kelvin where 0 is Absolute 0, so I don't get YOUR point.

Science in America always uses the metric system. It's the everyday stuff that's done in imperial.

Nov 26, 2012#40

Azurephoenix

I do structural steel and concrete design at my job.

Imperial jobs are a GOD DAMN NIGHTMARE. Converting stuff back and forth between Metric and Imperial equivalents, trying to compile Imperial and Metric maps together, fighting with suppliers over hard to find Imperial doohickeys. Worse yet is trying to do gas plant upgrades on old Imperial facilities with new Metric drawings.... ARGH!

Metric jobs are so easy it's not even funny.

Nov 26, 2012#41

tegid

Ravenpoe said:
Science in America always uses the metric system. It's the everyday stuff that's done in imperial.

Ah, I see. I was thinking of this news:
http://articles.cnn.com/1999-09-30/...iter-spacecraft-team-metric-system?_s=PM:TECH

But for some reason I thought the miscommunication had been between NASA and another agency. (Or maybe it's another similar story).

Nov 26, 2012#42

blotsfan

tegid said:
We're talking about Celsius, where 0 is the freezing point of water, not Kelvin where 0 is Absolute 0, so I don't get YOUR point.

Because in that case it works. 0 mph is as slow as possible, 100 mph is really fast.

Nov 26, 2012#43

strawman

Until the SI comes up with shoe sizes, clothing sizes, and bra sizes that work worldwide, I don't think we need to worry about whether the imperial system is worth replacing.

Nov 26, 2012#44

fade

I still say I'll use SI for everything but temperature. For one, I've got a mental map to what the F scale feels like, and it would be difficult to replace that scale. And second, there's really nothing less arbitrary about C than F. Alcohol or water, take your pick. I mean, you could make all kinds of subjective arguments for both. C because we deal with water everyday, so tacking the endpoints to water's boiling and freezing makes sense. F because 100 is a number everyone psychologically identifies as large, and 100 is pretty hot to a human. To be clear, I don't think F is "better" than C. They're both arbitrary.

Nov 26, 2012#45

Covar

figmentPez said:
Today is 2012_11_24

That way the files sort correctly on my computer.

Stripe out the underscores, save 2 bytes. I just gave you a 20% increase in efficiency on time and resources. You're welcome.

Nov 26, 2012#46

fade

and a 20% loss in readability.

Nov 26, 2012#47

strawman

fade said:
They're both arbitrary.

All measurement systems are arbitrary. The advantages SI has over most other systems, specifically imperial, are

- they follow the SI prefix system
- they are (arbitrarily) related to each other in "reasonable" ways

The imperial system has a few advantages of its own though:

- Most measurements are human scale, or readily converted into human scale (the only thing SI has that is human scale is the meter - about one arm's span, whereas you can find an approximate foot, yard, and inch on the human body)
- Measurements include factors other than 2 and 5, which most of the time makes it easier to divide a measurement into equal parts easily without decimal points

Nov 26, 2012#48

sixpackshaker

I was of the generation that tried to switch to the metric system in the mid 70's in grade school. So I am completely confused, because the metric system did not catch on, and they did not do as good of a job teaching us the imperial system.

Nov 26, 2012#49

Officer_Charon

blotsfan said:
Because in that case it works. 0 mph is as slow as possible, 100 mph is really fast.

Bitch please... 100 ain't THAT fast...

Nov 26, 2012#50

sixpackshaker

Officer_Charon said:
Bitch please... 100 ain't THAT fast...

But when I tell that to an officer, he'll disagree.

Nov 26, 2012#51

Jax

fade said:
I still say I'll use SI for everything but temperature. For one, I've got a mental map to what the F scale feels like, and it would be difficult to replace that scale. And second, there's really nothing less arbitrary about C than F. Alcohol or water, take your pick. I mean, you could make all kinds of subjective arguments for both. C because we deal with water everyday, so tacking the endpoints to water's boiling and freezing makes sense. F because 100 is a number everyone psychologically identifies as large, and 100 is pretty hot to a human. To be clear, I don't think F is "better" than C. They're both arbitrary.

I have no idea how F works, and so I don't have any idea what it is based on. Can anyone explain (very briefly) how F came to exist? So far I've only seen the posts that people feel it's hot at 100F...

Nov 26, 2012#52

sixpackshaker

Jax said:
I have no idea how F works, and so I don't have any idea what it is based on. Can anyone explain (very briefly) how F came to exist? So far I've only seen the posts that people feel it's hot at 100F...

teh wiki said:
According to an article Fahrenheit wrote in 1724, he based his scale on three reference points of temperature.[7] In his initial scale (which is not the final Fahrenheit scale), the zero point is determined by placing the thermometer in brine: he used a mixture of ice, water, and ammonium chloride, a salt, at a 1:1:1 ratio. This is a frigorific mixture which stabilizes its temperature automatically: that stable temperature was defined as 0 °F (−17.78 °C). The second point, at 32 degrees, was a mixture of ice and water without the ammonium chloride at a 1:1 ratio. The third point, 96 degrees, was approximately the human body temperature, then called "blood-heat"

Nov 26, 2012#53

Neon Pirate

Officer_Charon said:
Bitch please... 100 ain't THAT fast...

sixpackshaker said:
But when I tell that to an officer, he'll disagree.

Why would you slow down enough to even have that conversation? And no, I agree with the officer completely,
100MPH is not that fast!

Nov 26, 2012#54

Officer_Charon

sixpackshaker said:
But when I tell that to an officer, he'll disagree.

Shhh.... no, it's PERFECTLY okay to drive 100mph... or 160.9344 kph, if you prefer

Nov 26, 2012#55

sixpackshaker

Neon Pirate said:
Why would you slow down enough to even have that conversation?

Because I'd rather face a hit to my insurance than lose my job because I'd do some time for not stopping.

And my car isn't really that fast...

Nov 26, 2012#56

Officer_Charon

Mine is.

Nov 26, 2012#57

Siska

Nov 26, 2012#58

PatrThom

figmentPez said:
Today is 2012_11_24

That way the files sort correctly on my computer.

Well, duh. Even all my 8.3 notated files are YYYYMMDD.EXT as DOS intended.

--Patrick

Nov 26, 2012#59

Officer_Charon

Siska: *Golfclap*

Nov 26, 2012#60

Neon Pirate

Officer_Charon said:
Shhh.... no, it's PERFECTLY okay to drive 100mph... or 160.9344 kph, if you prefer

sixpackshaker said:
Because I'd rather face a hit to my insurance than lose my job because I'd do some time for not stopping.

And my car isn't really that fast...

My last one was. Didn't really worry about patrol cars, the pursuit vehicle didn't stand much of a chance. My concern was their radio and friends. Sadly, a gigantic Silverado (huge pickup for those unfamiliar) crushed my precious M3 into a bridge. The bridge and the truck won. My Jeep won't take me that fast, though if I need to get away (rare that I get into anything fun enough to require that kind of dramatic exit anymore) it will take me through places that patrol cars can't get to (or back out of). Did get to test drive a brand new M5 that a friend just bought and believe me 100MPH was not fast. In that car 100 was barely getting started. I did go fast in it. Perfectly, unflinchingly level and smooth while pulling a u turn at 100 MPH. Damn I wish I could afford one of those! Fortunate enough to get to drive it though. Was drooling over it, no idea it was his, when he handed me the keys to the new M5 and said if that if I did anything to it be sure it comes back totaled because he didn't want a Carfax history on it. Damn I miss going that fast!

OC...thanks for converting that to metric!

Shaker you do realize that the Officer was kind enough to give you a permission slip? Print. Keep copies in all vehicles.

Nov 26, 2012#61

fade

stienman said:
All measurement systems are arbitrary. The advantages SI has over most other systems, specifically imperial, are

- they follow the SI prefix system
- they are (arbitrarily) related to each other in "reasonable" ways

The imperial system has a few advantages of its own though:

- Most measurements are human scale, or readily converted into human scale (the only thing SI has that is human scale is the meter - about one arm's span, whereas you can find an approximate foot, yard, and inch on the human body)
- Measurements include factors other than 2 and 5, which most of the time makes it easier to divide a measurement into equal parts easily without decimal points

To be clear, I was specifically talking about the temperature scales.

Nov 28, 2012#62

JCM

Nov 28, 2012#63

fade

And illegal drugs.

Nov 29, 2012#64

Frank

And legal drugs.

Nov 29, 2012#65

Terrik

And the legal drugs stuffed with illegal drugs.

Nov 29, 2012#66

sixpackshaker

And Whiskey.

Even though we call it a Fifth and a Half Gallon, it is actually metric.

Nov 29, 2012#67

strawman

sixpackshaker said:
And Whiskey.

Even though we call it a Fifth and a Half Gallon, it is actually metric.

I was wondering what the pipettes at the bar were for.

Nov 29, 2012#68

Jax

Terrik said:
And the legal drugs stuffed with illegal drugs.

And turkeys stuffed with a duck stuffed with a chicken stuffed with legal drugs stuffed with illegal drugs.

Nov 29, 2012#69

Ravenpoe

Jax said:
And turkeys stuffed with a duck stuffed with a chicken stuffed with legal drugs stuffed with illegal drugs.

Hey, that's a family Thanksgiving secret... WHO TOLD YOU?

Nov 29, 2012#70

strawman

Measuring birds in SI units is fowl.

Nov 29, 2012#71

PatrThom

stienman said:
Measuring birds in SI units is fowl.

Why would I measure birds in Sports Illustrated?

Oh. Ohhhhh. Got it.

--Patrick

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