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1)

Are you in favor of all drugs becoming legalized, including ones like heroin and meth?

1) thanks for ruining the thread
2) Sure, why not?

1) Like a give a fuck about your smug little hissy fit
2) The most common concern about rampant drug use for the more "hardcore" (read: highly addictive) narcotics is that junkies tend to blow all their cash on drugs. When they run out of cash, they still need a fix, so they turn to petty crime. Thus if there is no check on how much heroin/meth/crack/etc. a person can consume, then you will have an increase in crime as junkies all over try to find way to pay for it. If that happens, people who don't use drugs at all begin to suffer. Don't you think that would be a problem? Or would legalization somehow make those drugs more accessible to the point where people won't ever feel the need to steal for them?

There's a stark difference between heroin and meth/crack and the types of drugs that have a realistic chance of being legalized - mostly marijuana in this case.

I favor legalization of marijuana but that's pretty much it. Most every other illegal drug actually has destructive properties. Of course, that doesn't stop tobacco or alcohol from being legal, but whatever.

Dave said:

There's a stark difference between heroin and meth/crack and the types of drugs that have a realistic chance of being legalized - mostly marijuana in this case.

I favor legalization of marijuana but that's pretty much it. Most every other illegal drug actually has destructive properties. Of course, that doesn't stop tobacco or alcohol from being legal, but whatever.

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I have yet to hear of a crime committed, or silly activity, or even worthwhile story beginning with "I had smoked sooooo much tobacco."

And what stops alcohol from being illegal is mostly what happened the last time we tried to make alcohol illegal.

GasBandit said:

I have yet to hear of a crime committed, or silly activity, or even worthwhile story beginning with "I had smoked sooooo much tobacco."

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... that I sold Manhattan Island for $24 worth of trade beads.

Dave said:

There's a stark difference between heroin and meth/crack and the types of drugs that have a realistic chance of being legalized - mostly marijuana in this case.

I favor legalization of marijuana but that's pretty much it. Most every other illegal drug actually has destructive properties. Of course, that doesn't stop tobacco or alcohol from being legal, but whatever.

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I agree with you about legalizing marijuana, and I wouldn't want to see any others legalized.

Tress said:

Are you in favor of all drugs becoming legalized, including ones like heroin and meth?

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Honestly? Yes. Not just for hypocrisy's sake, either (tobacco ok but not pot, etc).

I believe most drugs would self-limit. People who abuse alcohol die early and remove themselves from the gene pool, I can only assume the same would be true for people who overindulge in meth/crack/heroin/etc. If a guy commits a petty crime because he is trying to get money for something, then he should go to jail for his petty crime, the reason he needed the money should not matter. If I get mugged on my way home from the opera at gunpoint, I would not hold liable the gun manufacturer, the pusher, the company who made his shoes, his family, nor his bookie. I would hold him responsible, and nobody else.

I realize I sound a bit like Thomas Paine here, but at least I'm no GasBandit , right?

--Patrick

Ironically, while I am in favor of the legalization of marijuana... the little woman who is from the Netherlands absolutely is not.[DOUBLEPOST=1351107095][/DOUBLEPOST]

Adam said:

... that I sold Manhattan Island for $24 worth of trade beads.

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That ain't tobacco in the peace pipe, jack.

I might be in favor of legalizing harder drugs (not necessarily all hard drugs) if they were tightly regulated. I don't have a good picture in my mind of what that would look like, but it is conceivable to me that regulated drug use may be better than unregulated but illegal drug use.

PatrThom said:

I realize I sound a bit like Thomas Paine here, but at least I'm no GasBandit , right?

--Patrick

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You better be careful. Advocating personal responsibility and consequences for actions... that's a hangin' offense these days.

PatrThom said:

Honestly? Yes. Not just for hypocrisy's sake, either (tobacco ok but not pot, etc).

I believe most drugs would self-limit. People who abuse alcohol die early and remove themselves from the gene pool, I can only assume the same would be true for people who overindulge in meth/crack/heroin/etc. If a guy commits a petty crime because he is trying to get money for something, then he should go to jail for his petty crime, the reason he needed the money should not matter. If I get mugged on my way home from the opera at gunpoint, I would not hold liable the gun manufacturer, the pusher, the company who made his shoes, his family, nor his bookie. I would hold him responsible, and nobody else.

I realize I sound a bit like Thomas Paine here, but at least I'm no GasBandit , right?

--Patrick

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While I applaud your advocacy for personal responsibility, it still leads to the problem of you getting mugged in the first place. That could become a much more common occurrence if drug use was not checked. Yes, we could catch the junkies after they rob/mug/shoot people and throw them in jail, but they still committed those crimes in the first place. I would rather not see those things happen in greater frequency.

But would they really happen in greater frequency than they already do? Even with drugs being illegal, we still have people being robbed/mugged/shot for money to buy (illegal) drugs with; not to mention all of the crime that takes place during the import/export of said drugs. If the drugs were legal, and regulated in any way, we at least wouldn't have as much black market activity, drug gangs, and random innocent people getting caught in the crossfire.

I don't know for sure. But I tend to think that it would happen more frequently, because the fear of being caught keeps some people from getting into the harder stuff in the first place. I'm not an expert and I could be totally wrong, though.

Yeah, do you really want stuff that leads to these kinds of incidents legalized?

http://news.yahoo.com/mixed-martial...nd-pleads-144546096--abc-news-topstories.html

Gared said:

But would they really happen in greater frequency than they already do? Even with drugs being illegal, we still have people being robbed/mugged/shot for money to buy (illegal) drugs with; not to mention all of the crime that takes place during the import/export of said drugs. If the drugs were legal, and regulated in any way, we at least wouldn't have as much black market activity, drug gangs, and random innocent people getting caught in the crossfire.

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For some reason this also brought to mind the idea of supply and demand. If demand goes up and it's a legal substance, will supply respond, and suddenly a "hit" of whatever really hard drug becomes on the order of the same price as a cigarette? What would happen to the current negative effects of "you need a lot of money for it" if that essentially becomes a non-issue as well? Will the same negative effects happen? (Take out the idea of the sin taxes that will inevitably be raised on them, so it's more like $10 a hit, negating the entire argument here, but let's just pretend for a second here)

I don't know where I stand in general on this type of thing, but that thought came to me.

The economics of the drug trade are way too complex for me to even speculate on, but that is a very interesting question.

PatrThom said:

People who abuse alcohol die early and remove themselves from the gene pool,

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And yet alcohol is the most popular social lubricant used to enable schtoinking

North_Ranger said:

And yet alcohol is the most popular social lubricant used to enable schtoinking

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Like any substance, there is a benefit threshold beyond which the negatives start to outweigh the positives.

--Patrick

True, true. But there is also truth in WarCraft 3, where the human mating call was introduced: "I'm so wasted, I'm so wasted!"

GasBandit said:

I have yet to hear of a crime committed, or silly activity, or even worthwhile story beginning with "I had smoked sooooo much tobacco."

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I had smoked sooooo much tobacco, and then I got lung cancer and died a terrible, painful death.

HowDroll said:

I had smoked sooooo much tobacco, and then I got lung cancer and died a terrible, painful death.

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Ain't that a crime.

GasBandit said:

I have yet to hear of a crime committed, or silly activity, or even worthwhile story beginning with "I had smoked sooooo much tobacco."

And what stops alcohol from being illegal is mostly what happened the last time we tried to make alcohol illegal.

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I tossed in a bunch of chew, went on a roller coaster, and proceeded to throw up all over the place. It may not sound all that funny, but my friends sure got a kick out of it.

Yer killin' me, Smalls!

Tress said:

2) The most common concern about rampant drug use for the more "hardcore" (read: highly addictive) narcotics is that junkies tend to blow all their cash on drugs. When they run out of cash, they still need a fix, so they turn to petty crime. Thus if there is no check on how much heroin/meth/crack/etc. a person can consume, then you will have an increase in crime as junkies all over try to find way to pay for it. If that happens, people who don't use drugs at all begin to suffer. Don't you think that would be a problem? Or would legalization somehow make those drugs more accessible to the point where people won't ever feel the need to steal for them?

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So we would have the exact same problem that we have now? What current limitation do we have on the amount of heroin that a junkie can consume? Heroin is actually purer and cheaper now than it was when the drug war began.

If we legalized Heroin we could at least start treating junkies as people suffering under a disease rather than people who come in and out of the prison system.

Might not make a huge difference in crime rates but at least in my mind it would be more effective and less costly.

I'd just like to thank Charlie for yet another sterling example of why no one will take him seriously about anything.

If you want to make an argument, here's a hint: ACTUALLY MAKE AN ARGUMENT.

Bowielee said:

I'd just like to thank Charlie for yet another sterling example of why no one will take him seriously about anything.

If you want to make an argument, here's a hint: ACTUALLY MAKE AN ARGUMENT.

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I'm sure he believes we simple-minded folk lack the intellectual capacity for his flawless logic.

Tress said:

While I applaud your advocacy for personal responsibility, it still leads to the problem of you getting mugged in the first place. That could become a much more common occurrence if drug use was not checked. Yes, we could catch the junkies after they rob/mug/shoot people and throw them in jail, but they still committed those crimes in the first place. I would rather not see those things happen in greater frequency.

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Y'know, I mostly agree with you (ie: I'm in favour of legalising marijuhana and nothing else), but your point here...Hmm. You know why most people steal? Yeah. let's collectivise all property, have the government supply food, shelter and enough luxuries for everyone, and everybody works for free. I'm sure it'll work out perfectly.

That is, while I'm all in favour of helping people not have to resort to crime, saying "this would cause people to mug you for money" isn't really a strong argument. A person who's willing to steal is a person who's willing to steal. Everyone has a different limit as to what they'll do in what circumstances, and I'm not saying there can't be perfectly valid reasons for breaking the law (that would make me a pretty big hypocrite, considering I just smoked a joint in a country where it's still illegal, but more seriously, stealing money to avoid starvation is more morally acceptable than stealing to buy a new iPad).
Anyway, my point is, more muggings/thefts/... aren't caused by legalising or not legalising drugs any more than guns kill people. It's still people's own, personal, ethical self who makes the decision. To steal or not, to shoot or not, whatever. You can't try to exterminate all reasons for crime. You can only try to make sure no-one needs to resort to crime - but that way madness lies, and some extreme form of communism.

Dubyamn said:

If we legalized Heroin we could at least start treating junkies as people suffering under a disease rather than people who come in and out of the prison system.

Might not make a huge difference in crime rates but at least in my mind it would be more effective and less costly.

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Put a band-aid on your bleeding heart laddie, it's not a disease it's a problem, a self inflicted one.

ThatGrinningIdiot! said:

Put a band-aid on your bleeding heart laddie, it's not a disease it's a problem, a self inflicted one.

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Anyone that doesn't think addiction is a disease is a dumbshit.

ThatGrinningIdiot! said:

Put a band-aid on your bleeding heart laddie, it's not a disease it's a problem, a self inflicted one.

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Anyone that makes a mistake doesn't deserve help. Gotcha.

I guess this is where bootstraps come into play?

Heroin isn't the problem the same way guns aren't the problem. There will be addicts and murderers regardless.

--Patrick

I want weed legal. WHY?! Because if its legal, I won't have to buy from lazy white-trash dealers any more. Drug dealers are probably the most unprofessional people on the face of the Earth. You tell them you want some stuff in a month, they forget. They tell you its normal stuff, they accidentally mixed it up with the laced kind. You buy some from you, they want you to smoke it with you. NO! I bought this so I could smoke it at a later date! Sure if it were legal they would make chemically altered stuff, but I could still probably buy pure marijuana like the tobacco people use to roll up their own cigarettes/cigars. I'm mad as hell, and I'm not gonna toke it anymore! Well...I will, BUT YOU GET MY POINT!

Yoshimickster said:

Drug dealers are probably the most unprofessional people on the face of the Earth.

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I want to show you something:

.

You see that? It's the world tiniest violin playing a sad song for you and your plight.

Tress said:

I want to show you something:

.

You see that? It's the world tiniest violin playing a sad song for you and your plight.

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Do you not like it when a mechanic doesn't do a good job on your car? Or when a cook makes your food wrong? If marijuana was legal, we would get actual professional sellers of the product and then I wouldn't have to deal with such incompetence.

I'm just very sorry to hear that the criminal you regularly deal with isn't as professional as you'd like. Such a shock.

Tress said:

I'm just very sorry to hear that the criminal you regularly deal with isn't as professional as you'd like. Such a shock.

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And this is WHY I want it to be legal! So I DON'T have to deal with such unprofessional morons. Oh so mister high and mighty man.

Is the War on Drugs, including US support for law enforcement and paramilitary operations against drug cartels in Latin America, intrinsically linked to the question of Drug Legalisation (in whatever extent) in the United States, or can the two be considered as separate issues for the purposes of this thread?

TommiR said:

Is the War on Drugs, including US support for law enforcement and paramilitary operations against drug cartels in Latin America, intrinsically linked to the question of Drug Legalisation (in whatever extent) in the United States, or can the two be considered as separate issues for the purposes of this thread?

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That's a good question. Really the only reason we DON'T legalize weed is so the illegal drug cartels can still have power and give some scratch to Majestic 12. ITS ALL A CONSPIRACY MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!

Just kidding(not really) but I feel if weed was legal it would severely depower the illegal drug trade, similar to how relegalizing alcohol gave less power to the mafia.

Not really. They'd just switch to harder stuff and it wouldn't do anything to change the fact that most countries will still have it outlawed. Your NEVER going to see it become legal in a place like Japan.

AshburnerX said:

Not really. They'd just switch to harder stuff and it wouldn't do anything to change the fact that most countries will still have it outlawed. Your NEVER going to see it become legal in a place like Japan.

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Just looked up what you meant, they are fucking hardcore over there when it comes to drugs! 16 months, and 35 days solitary for posession alone?! Sweet cupping cakes Japan!

While it probably won't be legalized there, they should at least lessen their punishments for drug related crimes.

Yoshimickster said:

Just looked up what you meant, they are fucking hardcore over there when it comes to drugs! 16 months, and 35 days solitary for posession alone?! Sweet cupping cakes Japan!

While it probably won't be legalized there, they should at least lessen their punishments for drug related crimes.

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Does it work? Are the rates lower, or is it just harsher for no appreciable reason? I'm not saying I support it, but it'd be interesting to see any stats on it.

Eriol said:

Does it work? Are the rates lower, or is it just harsher for no appreciable reason? I'm not saying I support it, but it'd be interesting to see any stats on it.

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From this site here, it states that only 2.9 percent of the population as of 2010 have used drugs. It was a real problem in the 80s, but now its calmed down and yet the harsh laws are still there.

Interesting article on this topic actually, with an election slant.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2012/11/legalising-marijuana?fsrc=scn/tw/te/bl/viewfromMexico

Eriol said:

Does it work? Are the rates lower, or is it just harsher for no appreciable reason? I'm not saying I support it, but it'd be interesting to see any stats on it.

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It's mostly still enforced by familial and societal expectations. In Japan, you don't do drugs because it's fucking embarrassing for your friends, family, and colleagues to explain your actions and they will just cut you off rather than stand up for you. It would literally affect their careers. Really, in a lot of ways, Japanese society is run kinda like a cult.

But yeah, Jail time is generally pretty harsh in Japan because they have such low rates of serious crime. They expect you to go, do your time, and come out a functioning member of society in a way that we don't here in the US.

From a psychological perspective harsher punishments can actually have the opposite intended effect depending on how strong the percieved social norms are.

SpecialKO said:

Interesting article on this topic actually, with an election slant.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2012/11/legalising-marijuana?fsrc=scn/tw/te/bl/viewfromMexico

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An interesting read. It seems to me that the author is examining a system where the drugs are legally produced inside a US state where the drug is legalised, and then illegally smuggled across state borders to those states where it is not.

I see a couple of problems with this. The entire scheme rests on criminal enterprise to set up a distribution network inside the US. Which is, you know, criminal. And likely handled by organised crime. I assume (could be wrong here) that the production of drugs in the states mentioned in the article would be heavily regulated, with any evidence of collusion with smugglind rings, the mafia, or other such illegal organisations resulting in an investigation with the producers prosecuted and their operations shut down. So even if the production is legal, how would you get the producers together with the national distributors (who are operating illegally) while avoiding a law enforcement crackdown?

And then there would be the pressure levied against state lawmakers by their neighbouring states, the DEA, FBI, and other organisations that have a problem with drug smuggling and it's enablers.

I only have the above article to go on, but the entire idea seems difficult to make work the way the author suggests, assuming I understood his point correctly.

What I hate how there are medical marijuana growers who are for the continued illegalization of marijuana for recreational use. Its like how Boot-leggers during prohibition times were all for prohibition since it would keep their hooch sales up. Not knocking medical marijuana completely though, there are people who truly need it but there are also a lot of people who exploit it just to get high. I'd rather risk getting arrested than take medicine that could actually be for better use.

It is like the bumper sticker that was on a bootleggers car.

"Think of my children, Keep this county dry."

The more legal marijuana is made, the better, in my opinion. Get all regulated up in hyeeeah.

Plus brothers won't be doin' time for toking up something that has litterally been toked for TWO THOUSAND YEARS! THOUSANDS OF YEARS!

Yoshimickster said:

Plus brothers won't be doin' time for toking up something that has litterally been toked for TWO THOUSAND YEARS! THOUSANDS OF YEARS!

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Come now, that's a pretty big logical fallacy. People have been stabbing each other for thousands of years too, you know.

bhamv3 said:

Come now, that's a pretty big logical fallacy. People have been stabbing each other for thousands of years too, you know.

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All right then let me rephrase. People won't be doing time for doing something GENERALLY HARMLESS for thousands of years. I say generally, because there are people who some how get addicted even though its one of the least addictive substances.