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Tithing

Mar 16, 2015#1

Adam

Great sermon this weekend on generosity and of course tithing comes up. No doubts that this is a pretty rancorous subject but it certainly is deserving of some debate. Now, 10% is a lot and doesn't really have any NT support behind it. My gf and I debated it as emblematic as a sacrifice that shows devotion, however economically I see it as unfeasible for most people, especially lower income earners. Is it 10% on gross or net income? Is 10% a requirement? Do charitable offerings count as grace and then count towards that 10%?

Many questions, looking for debate!

Mar 16, 2015#2

sixpackshaker

The Roman Catholic Church considers charitable donations as part of the tithe. I don't think I ever got over 5% when I was the church going type.

Mar 16, 2015#3

Bubble181

The idea of 10% comes entirely from medieval sources, being in fact a tax levied by monasteries on people working their ground. There's absolutely no Biblical basis for the number. This in contrast to the Islamic zakat, which is set at 1/40th of all property a year. Of course, different christian denominations have different opinions.

I feel that, especially if you look at the teachings of Jesus in the NT, the idea is to give enough to matter, not just a small token contribution, but something that you "feel" - making a sacrifice to your own view of luxury.

Of course, what is or isn't "feasible" is up for debate. Some would argue that one needs only survive and everything above that is luxury and should be give away. It really is a personal matter, unless your religion "forces" you (such as zakat, or mormons IIRC who are indeed supposed to give 10% and have specific rules about all that - see stienman for more info

). If you see religion as a personal matter, there's no reason whatsoever to give exactly 10% - for some this would mean going practically without food or necessities, for others it's still a drop in the bucket. It's harder for a minimum wage worker to give $10 than it is for Bill Gates to give away half his fortune (by which I do not want to imply the latter means nothing).
Personally, I'm always of the belief that - if there is a God - s/he isn't a bookkeeper and doesn't want Pharisees. Sticking to the letter of the rule while ignoring the meaning is ridiculous. Any sort of merciful/loving God would care more that you give freely and as much as you can spare, than that you give the exact amount you need to give to have your books in order, but consider it just a "tax" you're forced to pay.

Mar 16, 2015#4

Adam

One of our big discussions last night centred on the regressiveness of a 10% tithe. Even the government recognizes that those with little should pay less as a percentage, simply because our consumables don't increase in price as we get richer. An apple costs the same no matter your income. At a $40,000 income, you're paying a significant amount of tax, and then $4,000 a year as your tithe. That's a tremendous hit to your ability to have any other kind of savings, to save up for your kids education, to take a vacation anywhere. Are you meant to sacrifice your children's future?

If you consider tithing a tax to pay, you've missed the point of a gift. It shouldn't be a pain, it should be freely and happily given.

Mar 16, 2015#5

Charlie Don't Surf

Do whatever helps you go to sleep at night, you'll get into heaven either way

Mar 16, 2015#6

PatrThom

I always saw it as insurance, really.
1) Everyone is encouraged to give 10%, no matter how much it is/isn't to them or how much it hurts/doesn't.
2) The receiver of the tithe (in this case, the Church) plows this wealth back into the community in such a way as to do society the most good.

We're having a discussion in another thread about the unreasonable burden a flat tax would have on the poor, but when the purpose of that "tax" is to be managed by an organization that'll turn right around and deliberately help the less fortunate with it, it actually makes sense. It's just a shame that organizations tend to become less and less altruistic over time and as their size increases.

I'm also going to say that it's distasteful when people brag how much they tithe. You wanna brag about how little $x means to you? Get diamonds embedded in your teeth or get one of the gold Apple Watches. We'll know.

--Patrick

Mar 16, 2015#7

WasabiPoptart

The church I grew up attending told everyone that if you can give 10% you should. Otherwise give what you can. My mom was the church treasurer for years. I never saw how that money helped our community. Usually it was poured right into the minister's salary and building maintenance.

Mar 16, 2015#8

grub

I know that some churches use most of the money for internal purposes but I feel better giving knowing that my church just furnished a women's shelter with their resources.

I don't tithe often enough to satisfy my conscience, but I give when I can. I feel that a time commitment is just as important or more than a monetary one.

Mar 16, 2015#9

strawman

Adam said:
[Tithing] doesn't really have any NT support behind it.

http://www.openbible.info/topics/tithe_in_the_new_testament shows many portions of the New Testament discuss tithing. I'd almost suggest that at the time tithing was so widely practiced that it simply wasn't a question of doing it - more often the questions surrounded how it was performed, in other words the intention behind one's offerings. For instance doing it grudgingly, or to be seen of others was negative. Also paying a tithe but then turning a blind eye to other commandments/laws that might be seen as more important than tithing.

Adam said:
My gf and I debated it as emblematic as a sacrifice that shows devotion

Certainly that's one valid perspective. Another perspective from, perhaps, the extreme opposite end would be assuming first that all one has and is is due to God's blessings, and in reality He is offering us 100%, and asking us to give 10% back.

Or one can simply accept it as a command given in Malachi 3:8-9, "Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation."

Still others see it as an opportunity to receive blessings, as the command continues in verses 10 and 11, "Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the Lord of hosts." While the agrarian slant may appeal to farmers more directly, I take it as a promise that my efforts in my career will bear fruit.

I think it's this way with a lot of commandments though - people follow them for a variety of reasons.

Adam said:
however economically I see it as unfeasible for most people, especially lower income earners.

Stories abound of people who have had to choose between paying their tithing and paying for some other essential item (mortgage, food, utilities, etc) and having been blessed to manage both after they've chosen tithing. A trial of faith, so to speak. I suppose one might have to test the command to find out if the promised blessings alleviate their financial burdens enough to keep the commandment.

It seems to me to be a question of priority. If you can live off $30k per year, and you get a raise to $35k per year, do you decide to start paying tithing, or do you use that money to fund something else in your life you find important? If you hadn't received that raise, then you'd probably have been able to make $30k continue to work for you. At what point do you have "enough" money, that committing 10% to tithing is reasonable? Some people spend a lot of money on new cars, or cable/satellite service and entertainment that easily exceeds 10% of their budget that a more frugal person might be able to do cheaper, or do without. I'm not saying this is a bad choice in and of itself, but if there are things in your life that are holding you back from a level of religious observance you'd like to have, then it might be worthwhile prioritizing things differently.

I'm making what some might consider a significant amount, but because of the choices we've made as a family things are really tight. We've decided to have a lot of kids and we've decided to purchase a larger house with a chunk of land, for instance. This means that right now because our larger vehicle broke last fall, and since our new baby incurred costs greater than anticipated, we are a one car family, and that car doesn't hold our entire family. We could go into greater debt, or we could stop paying tithing, or we could do a number of other things, but at the moment we are making it work because we don't want to go into debt for a car, and we don't want to stop paying tithing.

I don't think it's unfeasible, but I do think it's difficult, and being a follower of Christ was never described as "easy".

Even if you don't believe in the blessings, and aren't particularly interested in the show of devotion, I suspect the exercise of giving your income to your religious organization forces you to prioritize finances in a way that could benefit you spiritually by removing some of the distractions of life. No netflix? Spend time with your family, meditate, study, or create.

Adam said:
Is it 10% on gross or net income?

In my church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (LDS, or Mormon), there is no specific direction on this. I pay on gross as I feel that giving the government their due before the Lord His due doesn't fit with my personal beliefs.

When it's come up in discussions with others, one person explained to me that they think of taxes as part of the employer's responsibility, and not as part of their "increase", and indeed in some countries the employers are taxed directly on employee incomes, so the employees don't see taxes taken out of their paycheck (well, not all taxes, anyway). So they pay on net.

I can see value in both arguments, but again in my church while Tithing is important, at the end of the year when you meet with the Bishop the question is, "Are you a full tithe payer?", not "have you paid 10% of your gross/net income", or "how much did you earn this year".

It's up to the individual member to decide what being a full tithe payer is.

Adam said:
Is 10% a requirement?

In my church it is 10%, but again, individual observance can vary so it's really between the individual and the Lord.

Adam said:
Do charitable offerings count as grace and then count towards that 10%?

In the LDS church charitable offerings (often called "fast offerings") are completely separate from tithing, and members are expected to contribute 10% to tithing, and then also contribute to fast offerings as able. We encourage members to fast - go without food or drink for 24 hours, two meals - once a month. The money they would have spent on those meals should be given to the fast offering fund. In Malachi, it's not just tithes the Lord is being robbed of, but tithes and offerings.

This fast offerings fund is then used only for local humanitarian purposes, mostly individual families facing food, housing, utility, or medical insecurity.

Worldwide humanitarian services come out of the tithing fund, and from donations from members directly to the humanitarian aid fund.

At any rate, in the LDS church tithing is separate from charitable donations.

Mar 16, 2015#10

Ravenpoe

Adam said:
It shouldn't be a pain, it should be freely and happily given.

I'm a godless heathen, so take that into account when I say this, but this idea always struck me as odd when it's taught by the people asking for that money. Just seems a bit of a conflict of interest, to me.

Mar 16, 2015#11

Bones

stienman said:
http://www.openbible.info/topics/tithe_in_the_new_testament shows many portions of the New Testament discuss tithing. I'd almost suggest that at the time tithing was so widely practiced that it simply wasn't a question of doing it - more often the questions surrounded how it was performed, in other words the intention behind one's offerings. For instance doing it grudgingly, or to be seen of others was negative. Also paying a tithe but then turning a blind eye to other commandments/laws that might be seen as more important than tithing.

Certainly that's one valid perspective. Another perspective from, perhaps, the extreme opposite end would be assuming first that all one has and is is due to God's blessings, and in reality He is offering us 100%, and asking us to give 10% back.

Or one can simply accept it as a command given in Malachi 3:8-9, "Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation."

Still others see it as an opportunity to receive blessings, as the command continues in verses 10 and 11, "Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the Lord of hosts." While the agrarian slant may appeal to farmers more directly, I take it as a promise that my efforts in my career will bear fruit.

I think it's this way with a lot of commandments though - people follow them for a variety of reasons.

Stories abound of people who have had to choose between paying their tithing and paying for some other essential item (mortgage, food, utilities, etc) and having been blessed to manage both after they've chosen tithing. A trial of faith, so to speak. I suppose one might have to test the command to find out if the promised blessings alleviate their financial burdens enough to keep the commandment.

It seems to me to be a question of priority. If you can live off $30k per year, and you get a raise to $35k per year, do you decide to start paying tithing, or do you use that money to fund something else in your life you find important? If you hadn't received that raise, then you'd probably have been able to make $30k continue to work for you. At what point do you have "enough" money, that committing 10% to tithing is reasonable? Some people spend a lot of money on new cars, or cable/satellite service and entertainment that easily exceeds 10% of their budget that a more frugal person might be able to do cheaper, or do without. I'm not saying this is a bad choice in and of itself, but if there are things in your life that are holding you back from a level of religious observance you'd like to have, then it might be worthwhile prioritizing things differently.

I'm making what some might consider a significant amount, but because of the choices we've made as a family things are really tight. We've decided to have a lot of kids and we've decided to purchase a larger house with a chunk of land, for instance. This means that right now because our larger vehicle broke last fall, and since our new baby incurred costs greater than anticipated, we are a one car family, and that car doesn't hold our entire family. We could go into greater debt, or we could stop paying tithing, or we could do a number of other things, but at the moment we are making it work because we don't want to go into debt for a car, and we don't want to stop paying tithing.

I don't think it's unfeasible, but I do think it's difficult, and being a follower of Christ was never described as "easy".

Even if you don't believe in the blessings, and aren't particularly interested in the show of devotion, I suspect the exercise of giving your income to your religious organization forces you to prioritize finances in a way that could benefit you spiritually by removing some of the distractions of life. No netflix? Spend time with your family, meditate, study, or create.

In my church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (LDS, or Mormon), there is no specific direction on this. I pay on gross as I feel that giving the government their due before the Lord His due doesn't fit with my personal beliefs.

When it's come up in discussions with others, one person explained to me that they think of taxes as part of the employer's responsibility, and not as part of their "increase", and indeed in some countries the employers are taxed directly on employee incomes, so the employees don't see taxes taken out of their paycheck (well, not all taxes, anyway). So they pay on net.

I can see value in both arguments, but again in my church while Tithing is important, at the end of the year when you meet with the Bishop the question is, "Are you a full tithe payer?", not "have you paid 10% of your gross/net income", or "how much did you earn this year".

It's up to the individual member to decide what being a full tithe payer is.

In my church it is 10%, but again, individual observance can vary so it's really between the individual and the Lord.

In the LDS church charitable offerings (often called "fast offerings") are completely separate from tithing, and members are expected to contribute 10% to tithing, and then also contribute to fast offerings as able. We encourage members to fast - go without food or drink for 24 hours, two meals - once a month. The money they would have spent on those meals should be given to the fast offering fund. In Malachi, it's not just tithes the Lord is being robbed of, but tithes and offerings.

This fast offerings fund is then used only for local humanitarian purposes, mostly individual families facing food, housing, utility, or medical insecurity.

Worldwide humanitarian services come out of the tithing fund, and from donations from members directly to the humanitarian aid fund.

At any rate, in the LDS church tithing is separate from charitable donations.

I got no beef with you or your religion, but personally as an Apostate I find this delusional insanity of the first degree. Good on you all who do it. I pay taxes and consider that my contribution to society.

Mar 16, 2015#12

Adam

stienman said:
In the LDS church charitable offerings (often called "fast offerings") are completely separate from tithing, and members are expected to contribute 10% to tithing, and then also contribute to fast offerings as able. We encourage members to fast - go without food or drink for 24 hours, two meals - once a month. The money they would have spent on those meals should be given to the fast offering fund. In Malachi, it's not just tithes the Lord is being robbed of, but tithes and offerings.

This fast offerings fund is then used only for local humanitarian purposes, mostly individual families facing food, housing, utility, or medical insecurity.

Worldwide humanitarian services come out of the tithing fund, and from donations from members directly to the humanitarian aid fund.

At any rate, in the LDS church tithing is separate from charitable donations.

Always appreciate your view on things. Catholic teachings don't incorporate tithing (for the most part) and where tithing is encouraged, charitable donations are incorporated into total tithing. If the expectation is 10%, you can do 5% charity, 5% parish.[DOUBLEPOST=1426532201,1426531998][/DOUBLEPOST]

Ravenpoe said:
I'm a godless heathen, so take that into account when I say this, but this idea always struck me as odd when it's taught by the people asking for that money. Just seems a bit of a conflict of interest, to me.

It's a gift. If you give a gift to a child grumbling about its cost, it's really not that great of a gift for both sides. To be able to give happily is the best kind of giving; it makes the donor feel a sense of worth and happiness and the recipient as well. It's a conflict of interest for people that are asking for money, sure, but it's grounded in fact: Giving makes you happy - there is an emotional benefit to charity.

Mar 16, 2015#13

drawn_inward

Halforums, you never cease to surprise me. :minionhappy:

Mar 16, 2015#14

Dave

Adam said:
Giving makes you happy - there is an emotional benefit to charity.

I do agree with this statement but I have caveats. First, I have my doubts about how money is utilized in an organized religion setting. To whit, things like the mega-churches and stuff using the money to buy a $64 million plane or redoing large stadiums with ATMs in the foyer. Charity is great, but I would like to know that the money given actually goes towards those who need the help, which is why when I give I give to either organizations with good records or I give to the shelters directly.

Plus I don't go to church, so that avenue is kind of closed.

Mar 16, 2015#15

Cog

First world tithing problems

. In all my religion classes there wasn't any mention about how much should the tithe be. But I seem to remember something in the bible about how a rich man gave lots of money and a poor woman only a few coins. It said that the woman gave more than the man because she was making a sacrifice.

Mar 16, 2015#16

SpecialKO

Adam said:
Now, 10% is a lot and doesn't really have any NT support behind it.

You really should consider moving on to Windows 7 at this point anyway...
...
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(I'll let myself out :oops:

)

Mar 16, 2015#17

Adam

Dave said:
I do agree with this statement but I have caveats. First, I have my doubts about how money is utilized in an organized religion setting. To whit, things like the mega-churches and stuff using the money to buy a $64 million plane or redoing large stadiums with ATMs in the foyer. Charity is great, but I would like to know that the money given actually goes towards those who need the help, which is why when I give I give to either organizations with good records or I give to the shelters directly.

Plus I don't go to church, so that avenue is kind of closed.

I would also add my own caveat that any organization that doesn't let me look at how those monies are spent isn't worth giving to. My current church has an AGM and open book finances so I know fairly well how it's run whereas I am aware of other churches (Particularly the LDS church and @stienman may be able to comment better) do not have public financial statements. Just because I'm charitable does not mean I won't hold people accountable.[DOUBLEPOST=1426535984,1426535911][/DOUBLEPOST]

SpecialKO said:
You really should consider moving on to Windows 7 at this point anyway...
...
...
...
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...
(I'll let myself out )

Windows 8 4 LIFE

Mar 16, 2015#18

strawman

The LDS church publishes financial information in countries where required by law, but does not do so elsewhere.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finances_of_The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints

Having worked in various capacities in my local congregation, I can state that there are no paid ministry on the local level, and funds from the church to support the congregation are very well managed.

So if you want a snapshot of the church's spending, you can look at the financial information in New Zealand or the UK, but you wouldn't be able to look at the US financial information, and as the church is US based you won't get the whole view.

Mar 16, 2015#19

PatrThom

Adam said:
Windows 8 4 LIFE

No, it's Windows NT 4, not Windows 8 4.

--Patrick

Mar 16, 2015#20

GasBandit

Bones said:
I got no beef with you or your religion, but personally as an Apostate I find this delusional insanity of the first degree. Good on you all who do it. I pay taxes and consider that my contribution to society.

I also pay taxes and consider it a necessary evil at best, and extortion under threat of violence to bankroll tyranny and oppression at worst.

That said, I haven't been to church since I was a kid, and I don't think I have any informed insights on the subject.

Mar 16, 2015#21

Necronic

10%???

Man...and I though PMI was bad.

Mar 16, 2015#22

bhamv3

My wife, the devout Christian, gives 10%. She puts the cash in a special envelope and hands it in to our church's office every month.

I, the filthy atheist just pretending to be a Christian, put 100NTD (the smallest paper money denomination in Taiwan, approximately 3 US dollars) in the collection plate—well, it's more like a collection bag in our church—every week.

It works for us on all levels. We're financially secure enough that we won't miss the 10% she gives every month, and she gets to contribute to the church in a tangible way. And I don't look like a stingy jackass in the pews when the collection bag comes my way.

Mar 17, 2015#23

papachronos

My church (Presbyterian Church in America) believes that a 10% tithe is taught in the Bible, but the PCA does not mandate that church members give 10% (or anything, really), and my congregation specifically asks non-members and non-believers who may be present in the service NOT to contribute unless they feel called to.

In the PCA, the tithe is specifically intended to fund the operating budget of the local congregation - pastors' and staff salaries, building upkeep/rent, utilities, etc - with direct oversight by the members of the congregation, as every budget must be approved by congregational vote.

Offerings are given separately from tithes, since they are intended directly for charity and outreach purposes. Occasionally there will be specific fundraisers for things like building expansion or property purchases, but these are rare, and have to go through the same approval process as the budget with the same oversight.

As to whether it's 10% on gross income or net income, or whether other charitable contributions count toward it - it doesn't really matter, and misses the point entirely. Treating giving this way makes it a law - a law that we try to obey because we believe, deep down, that doing so will earn us favor with God, which, according to Gospel doctrine, is both (a) impossible, and (b) unnecessary. (I can expand on this, if anyone is truly interested).

Ultimately, God doesn't need our money. The point of Biblical giving is to change our hearts toward him, not the other way around. The point of giving is to grow and encourage a community of givers.

Mar 18, 2015#24

fade

Man, I grew up with hippy parents. I read about tithing in history books, but until about 10 minutes ago, I thought it was a medieval practice. Learn something new every day.

Mar 18, 2015#25

Bubble181

fade said:
I thought it was a medieval practice.

It is

(no actual disrespect meant to people who tithe)

Mar 28, 2015#26

Gruebeard

fade said:
Man, I grew up with hippy parents. I read about tithing in history books, but until about 10 minutes ago, I thought it was a medieval practice. Learn something new every day.

Aye.

.... And are Catholics actually inclined to tithe with the Vatican so smurfing wealthy?

Mar 28, 2015#27

Bubble181

Gruebeard said:
Aye.

.... And are Catholics actually inclined to tithe with the Vatican so smurfing wealthy?

No official tithing in the Catholic Church and there hasn't been for decades. Collections, yes. Demanded tithing, no.

Mar 30, 2015#28

tegid

I grew up more or less as a catholic, and went to a catholic school for 12 years. And I, like Fade, only knew tithing in its medieval version :oops:

So you can imagine that it's not very relevant in catholicism, no

Mar 30, 2015#29

Officer_Charon

I find myself glad that I don't attend church.

Don't get me wrong, I have zero issues with donating to charity - I'm with Dave on this one.

But to pay a membership fee that is a substantial chunk of my income to have someone preach at me? No thanks.

Mar 30, 2015#30

Adam

It's a tax-deductible donation to a cause that I believe in and I receive some semblance of a service back (Weddings, funerals, counseling, community support, support groups, etc.) Considering my tithe would be upwards of $16,000 a year, yeah that's a bit obnoxious to think about so I give what I can that still allows me to fill good about giving, but not so ludicrous that it feels unfathomably restrictive.

Mar 30, 2015#31

Terrik

Officer_Charon said:
But to pay a membership fee that is a substantial chunk of my income to have someone preach at me? No thanks.

Are we talking about church or a vast majority of my college courses?

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