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To NAS or not to NAS, that is the question.

#1

Dave

Dave

I'm looking at expanding my system as I'm nearly full on the 5 TB media drive that I have. But I'm running out of bays. Plus I'd like to move my home PC to an SSD. And since I got my bonus check, now would be the time.

Right now I have 3 bays and they are configured as follows - C: drive is 1 TB system drive with 425 GB free (initially it was the only drive so it has a lot of crap on it I can move safely away), D: drive WAS my media drive and has 537 GB free, and A: is my now primary media drive with 1.07 TB free. Now I know that sounds like I have a lot of space, but I've archived a lot of stuff that I want to have access to, so I'll be filling this space back up.

The SSD is going to happen. That's pretty much a given. And since that's going to take away from my available bays, I'm thinking of getting a NAS. Which would be one hell of an investment and I'm not sure if it would be overkill. I would be using it primarily for storage since apparently you can't load Steam games on a NAS for some reason.

My choices as I see them are:
  • NAS
  • No NAS, but buy a larger HD to replace one of the ones that I had prior. Probably the C: drive since it's the oldest and probably the most replaceable.
  • Archive more shit and make due.
The benefit of the NAS would be setting up a RAID array and having a much better chance that I won't ever lose anything. The downside is pretty much just cost, which isn't much of a downside right now.

Thoughts and recommendations for a good NAS?


#2

Dave

Dave

This is the system I'm looking to get. It's got the 4 slot NAS and comes with 2-4TB hard drives.

https://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboBundleDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.3823954


#3

Dave

Dave

Well, I went ahead and got the NAS and a new 500GB SSD drive.

And I'm done spending large amounts of money. (By the way, I paid all bills and paid off 2 credit cards before making this purchase, so Gas can't yell at me.)


#4

PatrThom

PatrThom

Once your data storage needs outgrow what a single 2-4GB external can hold, why then the answer is “of course you should NAS!” But you know, if you’re going to ask for advice, you might want to wait more than TWO HOURS for an answer before pulling the trigger. I mean, there are imgur albums that stay up longer than that!

Anyway, I haven’t even clicked on your link yet, but my recommendation would’ve been for one of these three models. They all support Plex, too.

—Patrick


#5

strawman

strawman

PatrThom said:
my recommendation would’ve been for one of these three models.
Click to expand...
What are the benefits of qnap over synology?


#6

PatrThom

PatrThom

stienman said:
What are the benefits of qnap over synology?
Click to expand...
I don’t know. I did plenty of research on the QNAP models before I decided to roll my own (a project which is still in progress, btw), but I did not look into the Synology. Mostly I was looking at QNAP because I found out I could get a discount through work. I don’t know if I get a discount on Synology, nor do I even know if the QNAP is still on plan, since once I found out I could roll my own for about half the cost, I decided to focus my efforts in that direction.

—Patrick


#7

strawman

strawman

Ok. The last time I looked seriously at buying an existing system (which is years ago now) synology came out on top for my use case.

Haven't bitten that bullet though, despite really needing one.

Like you I'm now convinced I should roll my own, and in fact my son is willing to do it if I buy the parts.


#8

Dave

Dave

I thought about rolling my own as well, but wasn't sure if it would have been worth the effort. I can have this system set up by next week (or a few hours after it shows up). The hardest part for me is going to be moving the OS from the current C: drive to the SSD.


#9

PatrThom

PatrThom

stienman said:
Like you I'm now convinced I should roll my own, and in fact my son is willing to do it if I buy the parts.
Click to expand...
The sole factors (besides cost) which made me decide to roll my own are:
-Unattended error detection and correction to combat bit rot (i.e., btrfs or ZFS support)
-Hardware-independent, standards-based disk format (in case of HW failure can transplant disks to new NAS) — because I NEVER want to hear, “Oh we don’t support that model any more, you’ll have to scavenge eBay for a working legacy model if you want a chance at getting your data back”
Dave said:
The hardest part for me is going to be moving the OS from the current C: drive to the SSD.
Click to expand...
Isn’t it always?

—Patrick


#10

@Li3n

@Li3n

Dave said:
The hardest part for me is going to be moving the OS from the current C: drive to the SSD.
Click to expand...
There are programs that will mirror the install on the SSD super easily.


#11

Dave

Dave

@Li3n said:
There are programs that will mirror the install on the SSD super easily.
Click to expand...
Oh yeah. I've got this page bookmarked:

https://windowsreport.com/move-windows-10-ssd/


#12

GasBandit

GasBandit

Dave said:
(By the way, I paid all bills and paid off 2 credit cards before making this purchase, so Gas can't yell at me.)
Click to expand...
Yeah, when something breaks next week I'll quote this again :p


#13

Dave

Dave

This is the only real money we've spent so we have a good 4 digits left over sitting in savings doing nothing but being productive. I want to use it to pay down our last card (the one I used last year to go to Texas) but we're holding off in case of any emergency.


#14

@Li3n

@Li3n

Dave said:
Oh yeah. I've got this page bookmarked:

https://windowsreport.com/move-windows-10-ssd/
Click to expand...
This is what i used last time: https://www.macrium.com/reflectfree

...

Also, this thread is totally a Baader-Meinhof phenomenon for me, since it showed up right after i had to buy a NAS for work...


#15

jwhouk

jwhouk

Macrium Reflect is what I used to flash my drive before upgrading to WinTen. I'd highly recommend it.


#16

Tinwhistler

Tinwhistler

I used Macrium when I got my SSD, as well.


#17

Dave

Dave

Did you guys buy it or use the free version? Seems that the free version won't back anything up.


#18

PatrThom

PatrThom

Dave said:
Did you guys buy it or use the free version? Seems that the free version won't back anything up.
Click to expand...
Some software is worth paying full price for, even if you only use it once.
...especially when your bank acct is > 4 digits.

--Patrick


#19

jwhouk

jwhouk

I used the free version. Works very well.


#20

Tinwhistler

Tinwhistler

Dave said:
Did you guys buy it or use the free version? Seems that the free version won't back anything up.
Click to expand...
I honestly don't remember :(


#21

@Li3n

@Li3n

Dave said:
Did you guys buy it or use the free version? Seems that the free version won't back anything up.
Click to expand...
I don't buy this sort of stuff... but i can't guarantee i didn't use the full version... :whistling:

Though now that i think about it, i used it to mirror a smaller SSD to a bigger one.

But why do you need a back-up if you're just mirroring the HDD on an SSD? Just keep the HDD un-wiped for a while as back-up.


#22

Gared

Gared

Sounds like the issue I ran into while trying to mirror my drive over before I decided to do a fresh install of Windows on the SSD. If the drive you're copying from is larger than the drive you're copying to, even if you only want to mirror a portion of the origination drive, you have to have the full version of most of these utilities, or they'll just look at the overall sizes and say "nope!"


#23

Dave

Dave

First thing I'm going to do is move all media stuff to the NAS. Everything that is on the C: drive is being moved out. The only thing left on the C: drive is going to be the OS. Then I'm going to flash the OS to the SSD and remove the old C: drive. If it boots fine then I'll hook the C: drive back in and wipe it.


#24

PatrThom

PatrThom

Dave said:
First thing I'm going to do is move all media stuff to the NAS. Everything that is on the C: drive is being moved out. The only thing left on the C: drive is going to be the OS. Then I'm going to flash the OS to the SSD and remove the old C: drive. If it boots fine then I'll hook the C: drive back in and wipe it.
Click to expand...
Before you even start this project, check the site of the SSD manufacturer and make sure there's no pending firmware update for the drive.
It'd be a shame if you went through the entire migration process and THEN discovered there's a drive firmware update with "...applying this update will erase your drive, please back up all your data before proceeding..."

--Patrick


#25

Tinwhistler

Tinwhistler

Was cleaning up my downloads directory and found the Macrium Reflect install i used. It was the free version, v7.1.2646.


#26

PatrThom

PatrThom

Also, @Dave, if you have an indeterminate amount of money burning a hole in your pocket, you can grab 4 of these for your shiny new NAS:

nimbus_data_exadrive_dc_series_-_presentation_5_575px.png


--Patrick


#27

Dave

Dave

Does that say a 100 TB SSD?!? Yeah I'll bet those are really cheap.


#28

GasBandit

GasBandit

With unlimited write endurance. Yeah, you're looking at over $10k there, easy.


#29

Dave

Dave

I'm looking on their site and it doesn't say anything more than "contact us for more information".

So really, REALLY expensive.


#30

GasBandit

GasBandit

Dave said:
So really, REALLY expensive.
Click to expand...
That, or vaporware.


#31

PatrThom

PatrThom

I firmly place them in the “If you have to ask...” category.

—Patrick


#32

strawman

strawman

GasBandit said:
That, or vaporware.
Click to expand...
Looks like it's real. It's a 3.5" drive, though, not the usual 2.5" SSD drive, so there's a lot more space.

Further, it's limited to the 500MB/s write speed of the SATA interface, so you can only write 1/2 of it each day. This means that their unlimited write endurance isn't exceptional - 5 years at the highest write speed means you'll only overwrite it fewer than 1,000 times for the bigger drive, or 2,000 times for the smaller drive.

It's still only being released to "select customers" so it is truly a "if you have to ask..." situation. You only buy one if you have to have one regardless of the cost, and there are a few settings where it would be necessary, compared to a traditional 100TB storage server.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/12541/unlimited-5-year-endurance-100-tb-ssd


#33

Dave

Dave

Okay so I'm getting the stuff tomorrow. Never having owned a desktop SSD, what should I put on the drive and what should I absolutely not put on the drive?

Definitely:
  • OS
  • Steam
  • Chrome
  • Office
Maybe:
  • Empyrion
  • Select Steam Games
So not going on the SSD:
  • Movies
  • Music
  • Photos

Is there anything I'm missing that should go on the SSD or I should be away should NEVER go on the SSD?


#34

GasBandit

GasBandit

Dave said:
Okay so I'm getting the stuff tomorrow. Never having owned a desktop SSD, what should I put on the drive and what should I absolutely not put on the drive?

Definitely:
  • OS
  • Steam
  • Chrome
  • Office
Maybe:
  • Empyrion
  • Select Steam Games
So not going on the SSD:
  • Movies
  • Music
  • Photos

Is there anything I'm missing that should go on the SSD or I should be away should NEVER go on the SSD?
Click to expand...
Looks about right to me. Empyrion in particular gets a MASSIVE performance boost for being on an SSD, and just the act of putting your OS on an SSD is like super-slick glisteny supermodel sex.

I recommend having two "steam library" locations, one on the platter drive, one on the SSD, and whatever your "game of the moment" is, put on the SSD and just have the others on the platter drive. That's what I do, generally. You can use steam to move the installs back and forth between the two libraries at will pretty seamlessly without redownloading/reinstalling.

But by and large, you have the right idea. Movies, music, photos, etc are a waste of SSD space.


#35

Denbrought

Denbrought

Dave said:
Okay so I'm getting the stuff tomorrow. Never having owned a desktop SSD, what should I put on the drive and what should I absolutely not put on the drive?

Definitely:
  • OS
  • Steam
  • Chrome
  • Office
Maybe:
  • Empyrion
  • Select Steam Games
So not going on the SSD:
  • Movies
  • Music
  • Photos

Is there anything I'm missing that should go on the SSD or I should be away should NEVER go on the SSD?
Click to expand...
If you're going with Windows, I'd recommend looking up how symlinks work. Your Users folder can/should be off of the SSD entirely (that'll cover your Desktops, Downloads, Documents, AppData, etc), and it's much easier (IME) to do that without telling the OS that it's happening.


#36

PatrThom

PatrThom

stienman said:
You only buy one if you have to have one regardless of the cost, and there are a few settings where it would be necessary, compared to a traditional 100TB storage server.
Click to expand...
Cramming 300TB of redundant storage into a 4-bay home NAS sounds like a noble cause, and just as brag-worthy as owning a 40-foot boat or a giant hot tub...and probably just as expensive.

—Patrick


#37

PatrThom

PatrThom

Hey @Dave Gas’ recommendations are pretty spot on.

An SSDs main advantage over a mechanical drive is not its transfer speed (3-4x faster), but its ACCESS speed (40-60x faster).
That means the SSD should contain those files your computer needs to find or change quickly and frequently. Game assets, the OS, audio/video assets that you are currently recording/mixing/editing, cache files, your swap files, and so on. Your HDD is the place for stuff you want to keep on standby BUT not frequently use nor modify. Half-finished but suspended projects, media files, installers, ISOs, or most anything that is big or that you only ever use from beginning to end (like a movie).

Also, NEVER DEFRAGMENT A SOLID STATE DRIVE. NEVER.
They don’t gain any benefit from defragmentation, in fact it actually wears them out faster.

—Patrick


#38

Dave

Dave

NAS is installing now. Once that’s done I get to tear down the C: drive and flash the OS and install the SSD. I debated doing the SSD first but figured I’d need the space to move stuff off first.


#39

PatrThom

PatrThom

Dave said:
NAS is installing now. Once that’s done I get to tear down the C: drive and flash the OS and install the SSD. I debated doing the SSD first but figured I’d need the space to move stuff off first.
Click to expand...
No, don’t worry. You’re doing it right. Make backup FIRST. Make changes SECOND.
Optional paranoid step between the two - verify your backups

—Patrick


#40

Dave

Dave

System does not want to read the NAS. Let the troubleshooting begin!


#41

PatrThom

PatrThom

Dave said:
System does not want to read the NAS. Let the troubleshooting begin!
Click to expand...
Check for NAS system update first, plug them both into the same switch if you can’t get them to see each other, make sure you have a clear route to the Internet before you start hitting up their support line. Most NAS units are smart enough to phone home the first time they’re powered on, but if its internal date/time is wrong it may be refused connection.

—Patrick


#42

Dave

Dave

Yeah right now my connection goes:

Cable in to wireless modem (LAN/WAN port) --> #1 to cable modem
--> #2 to computer
--> #3 to NAS

TV works fine. Computer works fine. NAS is not registering.

I'll see if there's any updates to the NAS although I don't know how I'l update it if I can't reach it.


#43

Dave

Dave

I may have to connect through USB3, I think.


#44

Dave

Dave

My LED light keeps blinking blue. From what I can find elsewhere, this means that the NAS is refusing to reboot. Mother fucker.


#45

PatrThom

PatrThom

Which model was it? The combo link you posted earlier is dead now that the combo is over, and I can’t look up the associated model.

—Patrick


#46

Dave

Dave

Synology DS418. I have a support ticket open now and a Reddit thread. We'll see. I don't want to have to send it back and get a new one. That would really cheese me off.


#47

PatrThom

PatrThom

DS418, DS418+, DS418play, or DS418j?

—Patrick


#48

Dave

Dave

Normal.


#49

PatrThom

PatrThom

So you already installed Synology Assistant onto your PC, you powered up the NAS, you launched SA, but SA can’t find it?

—Patrick


#50

Dave

Dave

Correct. From what I'm reading, it's because the blinking light indicates that the NAS is not booting up, hence nothing for the system to find.


#51

Dave

Dave


Maybe I got an answer!


#52

Dave

Dave

NAS is now fully functional, although one of the two 4 TB drives I put in had 2413 bad sectors. Now, I'm no rocket scientist, but that seems bad. So I'm returning it to NewEgg for another one. So no huge TB storage yet. Merely 4.5 TB more for now.


#53

Dave

Dave

Mother. Fucker.

The whole reason I got this was for my PLEX server. Guess what's not compatible? Yup. PLEX.

I specifically looked at this before and I guess I was looking at the DS418+ because that is. The DS418? Not so much.


#54

PatrThom

PatrThom

Dave said:
Mother. Fucker.

The whole reason I got this was for my PLEX server. Guess what's not compatible? Yup. PLEX.

I specifically looked at this before and I guess I was looking at the DS418+ because that is. The DS418? Not so much.
Click to expand...
[...]

—Patrick


#55

Dave

Dave

So now I have this NAS and can't put any of my media on it. Well, I CAN, but can't access it with PLEX. Wonder if there's another program that does the same kind of thing...


#56

PatrThom

PatrThom

You’re going to be returning the one drive anyway, will they not allow you to return the entire combo? Because if they do...
PatrThom said:
...my recommendation would’ve been for one of these three models. They all support Plex, too.
Click to expand...
—Patrick


#57

Dave

Dave

I'll call them Monday and see which way the wind blows. If I turn back the whole combo, any of these are the same price as the NAS +2 HD so I'd be shelling out another couple hundred. Not sure I want to do that. Weighing my options.


#58

Dave

Dave

Woke up today to a message that the other 4 TB HD that I bought has crashed with 60000+ bad sectors.

On the bright side, the SSD is working well finally (after some headaches) and I've still got the same amount of space I had before. I really want to like this NAS but it's been nothing more than a pain in the ass.


#59

PatrThom

PatrThom

I frequently hear about mail-order HDDs failing because they’re beaten up in transit, but that’s just ridiculous.

—Patrick


#60

Dave

Dave

Seagate. What can you do? I only got that brand because of the bundle. Now I'm turning everything back in and getting a full refund. Gas has me talked into getting a server instead so that's what I'm going to do.


#61

PatrThom

PatrThom

I’m more inclined to blame the folks who handled/packed/shipped the drives than the folks that made it. Like I said, FedEx/UPS/etc are about as easy on drives as United Airlines is on guitars.

I’ll admit that I’m interested in knowing what sort of server @Gas recommended, though.

—Patrick


#62

GasBandit

GasBandit

PatrThom said:
I’m more inclined to blame the folks who handled/packed/shipped the drives than the folks that made it. Like I said, FedEx/UPS/etc are about as easy on drives as United Airlines is on guitars.

I’ll admit that I’m interested in knowing what sort of server @Gas recommended, though.

—Patrick
Click to expand...
Right now you can get Poweredge R710s for practically nothing, and they're good servers.
Here's the link to where I got mine, but the price has gone up from $325 to $375.


#63

PatrThom

PatrThom

Don’t forget to also search for the PowerEdge T710 tower models, which are essentially the same machine, but in a tower form factor (and often not as noisy).

These machines may be limited to “only” PCIe 2.0 expansion and SATA II speeds, but unless you need the expansion capability and > 300MB/s HDD speed (which you don’t if you’re just going to make it into a NAS), they’re more than up to the task.

—Patrick


#64

GasBandit

GasBandit

PatrThom said:
Don’t forget to also search for the PowerEdge T710 tower models, which are essentially the same machine, but in a tower form factor (and often not as noisy).

—Patrick
Click to expand...
Just be aware that particular one he linked is local pickup only, no delivery.


#65

PatrThom

PatrThom

GasBandit said:
Just be aware that particular one he linked is local pickup only, no delivery.
Click to expand...
FYI added more stuff to the post, but just wanted to link a representative unit so he knew what they look like.
And it’s a shame, because that one is almost a steal at that price.

—Patrick


#66

Dave

Dave

So I was looking at them and I have some questions and concerns.

First, the models Gas linked only took 2.5" disks, which are either really expensive or hold fuck all for capacity.

Second, how loud/hot are these things? I looked at a couple YouTube videos about them and they sounded like jet engines fueled by the heat of the sun.

Third, so I understand all I do is plug in the drives, make sure everything is working fine (by attaching a monitor for the testing), and then plug it in to my router and configure as another network on the LAN?

I know I'm asking a lot of probably basic questions, but I've never worked with a NAS or the hardware side of a server farm so this is an area that I'm lacking.


#67

GasBandit

GasBandit

Dave said:
First, the models Gas linked only took 2.5" disks, which are either really expensive or hold fuck all for capacity.
Click to expand...
Err, no...

GasBandit said:
Right now you can get Poweredge R710s for practically nothing, and they're good servers.
Here's the link to where I got mine, but the price has gone up from $325 to $375.
Click to expand...
From that link:
Hard Drives 4 x Dell Enterprise 300GB 15K SAS 3.5" Hard Drives (1.2TB Of RAW Storage)
Drive Bays 6 drive bays
Click to expand...
The one I linked comes with 4 300g 3.5" drives, taking up 4 of the six 3.5" bays (they even pre-arrange them into a 900 gig RAID 5 for you).

Dave said:
Second, how loud/hot are these things? I looked at a couple YouTube videos about them and they sounded like jet engines fueled by the heat of the sun.
Click to expand...
When you first turn it on, the fans come on at full power, which yes, does sound like a 747 taking off. However, within a few seconds, the power management features in the bios take hold, and while not silent, it becomes much more quiet than my previous gaming PC (not my current gaming PC, which IS silent). As long as it isn't kept in a hot room, it's fairly quiet. I wouldn't want it in a bedroom, but a closet or office would be fine. As a reminder, I keep mine in my office at work and I can still listen to music quietly.

Dave said:
Third, so I understand all I do is plug in the drives, make sure everything is working fine (by attaching a monitor for the testing), and then plug it in to my router and configure as another network on the LAN?
Click to expand...
Network? No. It's a server, which is just a computer. The setup for it would be much the same as if you were just setting up a new PC in your home. Get all your drives in, set up the shares you want, then just stick it in a closet or something somewhere with an ethernet cable going to your switch or router, and that's pretty much it. I installed TeamViewer on mine so I can remotely manage it from anywhere same as if I were sitting at it with a keyboard, mouse, and monitor, but that's not strictly required - it just makes things more convenient.


#68

GasBandit

GasBandit

Forgive the portrait-mode filming, it's to illustrate the relative volume levels, not anything else :p the server's the thin, long, silverish one on the bottom, under the big black monstrosity on the desk there. Yes, it's fully up and running.



#69

Dave

Dave

That's not the same one you linked to me (maybe somewhere else). That one was this one and is 2.5".


#70

Dave

Dave

Man. Your office is so CLEAN!


#71

GasBandit

GasBandit

Dave said:
That's not the same one you linked to me (maybe somewhere else). That one was this one and is 2.5".
Click to expand...
Yeah, that was just the first hit I found, which is a little cheaper. The second one I linked is the one I bought.

Dave said:
Man. Your office is so CLEAN!
Click to expand...
You should see my house :p


#72

strawman

strawman

These are servers, not NASs. So they would require more effort to set up, but they are more flexible, and in some ways more powerful.

If you wanted plex, you'd set it up. If you wanted music sharing and video sharing that worked with your streaming devices (chrome, roku, apple tv, amazon fire stick, etc) you'd have to set up a server program for that.

The NAS has many/most of those things built int, you just have to enable them and configure them.

The server is a blank slate and other than basic file and print sharing you'll have to find software, install it, configure it, and update it as needed.


#73

Dave

Dave

I have ordered the server Gas linked and will be loading it with Amahi. I also ordered a UPS, something I've needed for some time.

So I'll let you know how it all goes once I get the stuff (about the 16th or so).

So much thanks to @GasBandit, @PatrThom, & @stienman. Cross your fingers.


#74

PatrThom

PatrThom

I would still recommend NAS4Free or FreeNAS (in that order) over Amahi, but that is solely based on their stated capabilities as they relate to what *I* want them to do (i.e., my primary goal is for long-term preservation of all my data). There is also a 4th one to consider which is OpenMediaVault. All four packages support NAS functionality, all are free to use, all support use as a media library, and all are based off some flavor or Linux. Amahi is based on Fedora at this time, but it looks like they may be moving to Ubuntu (which is based on Debian) in the future. Both FreeNAS and NAS4Free are based on FreeBSD, and OMV is based directly on Debian. All of these OSes are widely used and very stable and well-supported, but you may want to make sure that all your hardware is 100% supported by checking the hardware compatibility pages for each respective OS. You're using an off-the-shelf server, so the hardware Dell used is most likely widespread enough that it will be supported, but there are times when e.g. your RAID or wireless card won't work (lookin' at you, Debian!). Granted, your server probably won't have a wireless card, so that's less of an issue.

Anyway, take a look over the feature pages for the server software, and decide what all you want the box to do.
Amahi
FreeNAS
NAS4Free
OpenMediaVault
There are many, many more Open Source NAS options out there (e.g. Rockstor, openfiler, and more) but the above four seem to be regarded as the easiest ones for non-techies to set up.

ONE VERY IMPORTANT THING regarding your NAS storage pool: One of the things the Synology and QNAP boxes manage for you that can be a pain in the ass with the roll-your-own server model is adding disks to expand the size of your storage pool. If you're planning to add more drives to your server later to grow its storage, make sure you research the process NOW to see whether it's something you'll be comfortable doing later. FreeNAS' and NAS4Free's reliance on the ZFS file system, for instance, means you can't just tell the storage pool to be larger by including the new disk, you have to copy your data elsewhere, add your new drive, reset the NAS pool to the new size, and then copy the data back...which can be a pain.

--Patrick


#75

PatrThom

PatrThom

I hear your server came early, but you still have some time before you can play with it.
Are you going to set it up directly? Or are you going to virtualize?

—Patrick


#76

Dave

Dave

Don't know yet. Probably set it up directly. Right now I'm going through the documentation for the NAS4Free. I still am partial to the Amahi as all I'm looking to do is host the PLEX server for now.


#77

PatrThom

PatrThom

Ok. I didn’t know whether or not you planned to share that machine’s extra processing power across any other purposes (by running several different VMs, for instance).

—Patrick


#78

Dave

Dave

Nope. And after booting it up and finding that Windows Server 2016 is already installed, I'm looking to see if there's other options besides the ones mentioned. I can't really do much else at this time because it came packaged with 4 Seagate Cheetah 15K.7 drives, which add up to a whole 1.2 GB. With Windows on it that takes it down to about 800 GB. Not even close to what I need for space. So before I do anything I need to get higher capacity drives.


#79

PatrThom

PatrThom

Dave said:
before I do anything I need to get higher capacity drives.
Click to expand...
Sounds like 4x300 which would be fast storage, but yes 1.2TB is not very large these days, especially if you enable any kind of redundancy (which would bring you down to 900GB max).
However, the Cheetah drives are SAS (and probably SAS-2 at that), not the more common SATA, so then the choice becomes one of whether to spring for SAS replacements (which will be a little more reliable) or SATA ones (which will be a little bit cheaper). Technically the SATA drives would probably be slower as well (SAS supports backward compatibility with SATA-2 but that would mean 300MB/s v. SAS’ 600MB/s) but I doubt that’ll limit you.
Also before plunking down cash for larger drives I would make sure your controller supports physical drive sizes > 2 TB. Some don’t (and some do but only after a firmware update).

—Patrick


#80

Dave

Dave

Good to know. I'm actually going to wait until such time as I have the $$ to do so. My discretionary spending is done for now. I'm going to have to piecemeal from here on out so we don't run out of money.


#81

Dave

Dave

I do need to update my controller. Damn it. That's another $70 or so (looking at the H700 controller).

Sigh.


#82

GasBandit

GasBandit

PatrThom said:
Sounds like 4x300 which would be fast storage, but yes 1.2TB is not very large these days, especially if you enable any kind of redundancy (which would bring you down to 900GB max).
However, the Cheetah drives are SAS (and probably SAS-2 at that), not the more common SATA, so then the choice becomes one of whether to spring for SAS replacements (which will be a little more reliable) or SATA ones (which will be a little bit cheaper). Technically the SATA drives would probably be slower as well (SAS supports backward compatibility with SATA-2 but that would mean 300MB/s v. SAS’ 600MB/s) but I doubt that’ll limit you.
Also before plunking down cash for larger drives I would make sure your controller supports physical drive sizes > 2 TB. Some don’t (and some do but only after a firmware update).

—Patrick
Click to expand...
It's 4x300 in a RAID 5, which is 900, but if any one of the drives dies, you won't lose data, and access time is slightly faster than normal.


#83

PatrThom

PatrThom

Dave said:
I do need to update my controller. Damn it. That's another $70 or so (looking at the H700 controller).
Click to expand...
Are you sure the one you have can’t just be flashed to a newer firmware? Never mind, seems they can’t. Well, it looks like Newegg has H700 refurbished for < $50.
GasBandit said:
It's 4x300 in a RAID 5, which is 900, but if any one of the drives dies, you won't lose data, and access time is slightly faster than normal.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but he said “1.2GB [sic]” which I assumed meant his didn’t come RAIDed.

—Patrick


#84

PatrThom

PatrThom

It may be an advertorial, but it still has some useful info.

Next-Gen NAS: An Interview with Alex Wang, CEO of Synology America
Of particular interest to me is their stated reason(s) for choosing Btrfs over ZFS, since those two are the most popular file systems which support persistent data integrity/ECC.

—Patrick


#85

Tinwhistler

Tinwhistler

I've had a windows box under mydesk for a few years now, acting as a file server and plex server. All it does is hold files and run plex. And it's in a mid-tower sized case that I repurposed from spare parts in the basement.

Replaced it a few days ago with this: Terramaster F4-420 and doubled my drive space running raid 10. This thing runs plex, so after a few days of testing it out, I have retired my old server. I'll be grabbing the drives out of it and moving them into my current desktop, because, why not?

Considering that it took me about 6 years to fill up 75% of the original drive space I had, I think I'm good for a while :)
2019-08-30 20.21.52sm.jpg


#86

PatrThom

PatrThom

Why RAID 10 (50% of total capacity available)? Why not RAID 5 (75% of total capacity available)? Do you expect that high a level of random accesses? Or is the box not beefy enough to do the parity calcs?

--Patrick


#87

Tinwhistler

Tinwhistler

The box will do RAID 5. But with RAID 5, you can survive one drive failure and with RAID 10 you can survive 2 drive failures, if the failures are in different sub arrays. RAID 10 also has faster read and write times, which seemed more desirable since I have 3 rokus in the house, all of which can be playing movies simultaneously.

As mentioned previously, it took me 6 years to fill up one drive that wasn't in a RAID to 75%. I now have double that storage available, and so it looks like it'll take me (if usage stays constant) over 10 years to fill up the new available space. I expect that by then, drive sizes will have gone up, and prices down. So if I come close to filling the storage, it won't be too much of an issue to upgrade the drives.


#88

PatrThom

PatrThom

Yep, those are the kinds of things I was getting at. I figured you were doing it for a reason, I just didn't know which reason.

For those who think of RAID as a mystery:

RAID5 = 4 equal drives ABCp where you get a capacity of A+B+C and p holds the parity info (magic math that helps recomstruct what's on ABC), the benefit is that if any one drive fails, the rest can keep you going with no data loss, albeit at noticeably reduced speed.

RAID10 = This is actually a combination of RAID1 and RAID0 (it's "raid one-zero" not "raid ten"), 4 equal drives arranged AaBb, but you only get a capacity of A+B. Much like RAID5, any single drive can fail and still have everything without any speed penalty, you just can't lose both drives in a pair (even if both in the other pair survive). It is noticeably faster than RAID5, but with that lower capacity.

...I assume all the forum regulars know about RAID levels, but we did get some new non-spam members recently, so it can't hurt.

--Patrick


#89

mikerc

mikerc

PatrThom said:
...I assume all the forum regulars know about RAID levels, but we did get some new non-spam members recently, so it can't hurt.

--Patrick
Click to expand...
You assume wrongly sir!


#90

PatrThom

PatrThom

mikerc said:
You assume wrongly sir!
Click to expand...
Well, all the forum regulars who care about the stuff in this thread, at least. ;)

I wouldn't even bother with the disclaimer, but I get hit so often with complaints about how I hafta go and restate the obvious, soo...

--Patrick


#91

Tinwhistler

Tinwhistler



This is a good summation of why I chose Raid10
https://www.cyberciti.biz/tips/raid5-vs-raid-10-safety-performance.html


#92

Tinwhistler

Tinwhistler

Also:
http://www.baarf.dk/
Battle Against Any Raid 'F'. Where F means Four, Five, Free, whatever. If it starts with F, it's not as good ;)
https://www.baarf.dk/BAARF/RAID5_versus_RAID10.txt

That is a more in depth description about why raid 10 is superior to 5. And while I hesitated for a good 5 minutes about the decision, ultimately, I decided that drive prices were low enough that I didn't care about trying to eke an extra 4tb out of the setup by going raid 5.


#93

PatrThom

PatrThom

For anyone still following this conversation, that's why "RAID 6" was invented. RAID 6 is just RAID 5 but with two parity drives instead of just one, meaning any two drives can fail without data loss.
All the other stuff about RAID 5 still applies, though. you just get the extra safety net of an additional drive.
Tinwhistler said:
I didn't care about trying to eke an extra 4tb out of the setup by going raid 5.
Click to expand...
I'm still putting together what'll be very similar to a RAID 6 (3 data drives, 2 parity drives) but each one is only 2TB (6TB total storage available) because I want to build a system as cheaply as possible (5 HDD @ $40 ea plus $250 for the computer) that lets me learn how all of this works, how to configure and administer it, how all the options work, whether I should virtualize or run bare metal, etcetera BUT be capable and "real" enough that I can actually put my faith in it. I'll build myself a premium storage tower stuffed with 8TB drives later, once I level up on the training NAS (though I probably won't get as silly as this...not at first, anyway).

--Patrick


#94

Tinwhistler

Tinwhistler

PatrThom said:
(though I probably won't get as silly as this...not at first, anyway).

--Patrick
Click to expand...


#95

PatrThom

PatrThom

So you say you have accumulated a somewhat largish collection of media files, but you still want to game or model seismic data?

HDDDD.jpg

source

--Patrick


#96

Dave

Dave

Only $7,800? What a deal!

(Seriously if I could afford it...)


#97

PatrThom

PatrThom

I don't think that includes the drives, either.
Current going rate for 10TB drive = ~US$250, so 11 of those would add almost an additional US$3k.

--Patrick


#98

Dave

Dave

Yeah but just look at the system you'd have for 1.1 PB.

If I ever win the lottery I'd click that link again.


#99

PatrThom

PatrThom

Tinwhistler said:
https://www.baarf.dk/BAARF/RAID5_versus_RAID10.txt
That is a more in depth description about why raid 10 is superior to 5.
Click to expand...
Here's another, more recent article explaining why RAID10 is superior in performance and reliability (but NOT capacity) to RAID5/6.
Understanding RAID: How performance scales from one disk to eight

But really, I'm bumping this thread to talk about so-called "shingled" (SMR) disks, how the technology is now showing up in drives specifically labeled as "NAS-ready" or "NAS-optimized" (especially the WD Red line), and how this is bad, bad, bad.
...that 2TB-6TB “NAS” drive you’ve been eyeing might be SMR
and
Network Attached Storage and SMR don’t mix

--Patrick


#100

PatrThom

PatrThom

No doubt as a result of the publicity, WD has updated its website to show which models use SMR.

From TomsHardware: WD Sets the Record Straight: Lists All Drives That Use Slower SMR Tech
Turns out they even had one of their "Black" drives using it, if you can believe it.

--Patrick


#101

Bones

Bones

god damnit, i just ordered a WD MyBook for backing up my computer >_> it uses 2x3 WD Red drives.......


#102

PatrThom

PatrThom

Bones said:
god damnit, i just ordered a WD MyBook for backing up my computer >_> it uses 2x3 WD Red drives.......
Click to expand...
So long as they're not the models that are on that list, you're good.

--Patrick


#103

PatrThom

PatrThom

PatrThom said:
From TomsHardware: WD Sets the Record Straight: Lists All Drives That Use Slower SMR Tech
Click to expand...
Seagate and Toshiba have apparently been doing it, too.
Just a reminder to pore over the spec sheets before committing to a particular model, I guess.

--Patrick


#104

PatrThom

PatrThom

Further confirmation about the SMR "scandal," courtesy of ServeTheHome.
As a single drive, the SMR ones are a little slower than normal, but otherwise serviceable.
However, here's why they recommend not using them in NASes. One of the things that can happen in a NAS is the failure of a drive, requiring a fresh one to be substituted. The NAS then has to shuffle data around to rebuild or "resilver" the array before another drive fails, ruining the entire array. And what happens when you try doing this with an SMR disk?

SMR-RAIDZ-Rebuild-v2.png


...in short, it takes longer. How much longer? The other three disks (all CMR) finished in about 15-16hrs. The SMR disk? It finished in nine and a half DAYS. According to the article, this concerned them so much that they tried a second drive just to make sure. That means this one test probably took almost a month to complete.

So yeah, don't put SMR disks into a NAS. It's a bad idea and leaves open a wiiiide window of time where an additional disk failure could toast the entire array.

--Patrick


#105

PatrThom

PatrThom

Well, after the lawsuits were filed and spotlights were shone deep into WD's Red line, they have decided to change the labeling scheme so you can tell which drives use which technology.
And they have decided to do this NOT by relabeling the SMR disks, but instead by renaming the CMR models as their new "WD Red 'Plus' and 'Pro'*" lines.
...in other words, they took the existing Red CMR drives, the ones that used to just be called plain ol' "Red" drives, and gave them a new "Plus" or "Pro"* suffix. I have not yet looked to see whether or not they also elevated the pricing for their "new" Plus/Pro* models, but I am not ruling out the possibility. Caveat empstor, and all that.

Linus decided to weigh in on this as well, and does a decent job of explaining why people really do have a legitimate reason to be upset about this:




--Patrick
*Edited after discovering that the "Pro" line already existed, it is only the "Plus" name that is new. Doesn't really change the situation, though.


#106

Gared

Gared

Yes! Being horribly behind the times has worked in my favor once again - now I know which drives not to buy. So, much like @Dave was two years ago, I'm out of space on my current media drive, and I need to increase my capacity, run everything through the Plex or VLC interfaces to stream to TV my Chromecast, and provide file storage and backup capacity for our website. Is NAS the right route, or do I need something more like the full-blown server like Gas had for running Empyrion?


#107

GasBandit

GasBandit

If you want to run Plex, you're going to need a PC. It doesn't necessarily have to be server-grade (though, I bought my server for like $240).

So really, you could just get the cheapest PC you can find and stick some USB drives in it.

But, on the other hand, you could just use NAS storage, and run VideoStream for chrome on your regular PC, and map its libraries to the shared storage. That's what I was doing before I got my server.


#108

Gared

Gared

GasBandit said:
If you want to run Plex, you're going to need a PC. It doesn't necessarily have to be server-grade (though, I bought my server for like $240).

So really, you could just get the cheapest PC you can find and stick some USB drives in it.
Click to expand...
Perfect. Cheapest PC I can find and USB drives is right in my price range.


#109

PatrThom

PatrThom

You can get Plex for FreeNAS, but it's not officially sanctioned by the FreeNAS folks, it just runs on top of the underlying FreeBSD install.

You might find this page useful: NAS Compatibility List for Plex

--Patrick


#110

Tinwhistler

Tinwhistler

GasBandit said:
If you want to run Plex, you're going to need a PC. It doesn't necessarily have to be server-grade (though, I bought my server for like $240).

So really, you could just get the cheapest PC you can find and stick some USB drives in it.

But, on the other hand, you could just use NAS storage, and run VideoStream for chrome on your regular PC, and map its libraries to the shared storage. That's what I was doing before I got my server.
Click to expand...
My TerraMaster F4-220 runs "Terra-Master TOS" as the controller/configuration shell. It's linux-based and will run plex, so I was able to move my plex instance over to it. So, you don't technically need a full pc if you're getting a NAS device that'll run plex.


#111

Tinwhistler

Tinwhistler

They keep a list of such devices
support.plex.tv

NAS Compatibility List

The following spreadsheet provides information about compatible NAS devices as well as basic capability information. View Plex NAS Compatibility Guide...
support.plex.tv support.plex.tv


#112

PatrThom

PatrThom

Tinwhistler said:
They keep a list of such devices
support.plex.tv

NAS Compatibility List

The following spreadsheet provides information about compatible NAS devices as well as basic capability information. View Plex NAS Compatibility Guide...
support.plex.tv support.plex.tv
Click to expand...
Your link looks very familiar. :p

--Patrick


#113

PatrThom

PatrThom

I also want to put in that if you know how to read spec sheets (UDIMM v RDIMM, PCI v PCIe v PCI-X, etc), you can find some reasonably good deals (dimes on the dollar) at places like discountelectronics.com, LabGopher.com, ServerMonkey.com, etc.

--Patrick


#114

Gared

Gared

Thanks. Money probably isn't going to be a massive issue with this purchase, because we should be getting a rather large infusion of cash shortly, but a penny saved is like 50 pennies earned these days, so I'll probably take some time to pick through deals as much as I can, right up until I get too frustrated and just go online and buy the rest of the hardware in one fell swoop. What I'm looking for here is at least 32GB of RAM (and as capacity goes up, speed going down is fine), a decent processor, and more hard drives and fans than I know what to do with, yes?


#115

PatrThom

PatrThom

Gared said:
What I'm looking for here is at least 32GB of RAM (and as capacity goes up, speed going down is fine), a decent processor, and more hard drives and fans than I know what to do with, yes?
Click to expand...
RAM speed probably doesn't matter as much for NAS/Plex function, it's the amount that's important. I would try to stay at 16GB or above. Usually it's not the CPU, etc that really drive up the price, it's the purchase of 5x8TB (or whatever) drives that really tacks on the $$$, especially since they need to be built to handle the transmitted vibration(s) from other drives in the system.
Some other advice:
-DO NOT get a machine whose CPU lacks AES-NI support. Just don't. For one thing, it'll make encryption/decryption MUCH faster if you use it, and the other thing is that you probably don't want to use any CPU so old it doesn't support it anyway.
-Get ECC memory if you plan to use the machine for NAS, it reduces the risk of data corruption.
-Try to balance the hardware choices against how much you will be using it. If you are going to be leaving it running 24/7, you're going to want to skip the 130W CPUs and pick more energy-efficient parts and/or remove/disable anything you're not going to use.

I spent the last year digging about NAS and ZFS, so I could go on for quite a while about this, obviously.

--Patrick


#116

PatrThom

PatrThom

Just an FYI for anyone else who, like myself, is thinking of going the "roll-your-own" route for building a NAS machine. Later this year, when the free and Open Source NAS package "FreeNAS" moves from v11.x to v12, it will also be changing name from "FreeNAS" to "TrueNAS CORE." They promise that this is more about unifying the brand and it will still be 100% free, still Open Source, and it will not result in any "Nerfing" of its functionality. Additionally, it looks like they are trying to move to something of an OS-independent model though "TrueNAS SCALE," which is (I guess?) a version they have running atop Debian to allow for a more Linux-friendly package.

--Patrick


#117

Gared

Gared

This time, the issue has been resolved by the simple answer of "when I ordered the parts for Aislynn's new computer, I got a free 2TB WD Green SSD, which I will now be adding to my system as a second storage drive."


#118

Dave

Dave

So Pat. If YOU were to pick out a mid-ranged NAS and drives. And that NAS had to support Plex.

What would you choose?


#119

PatrThom

PatrThom

Dave said:
What would you choose?
Click to expand...
Well, I'm cheap (AND I honestly don't know that much about Plex), so I'd probably just download the Plex plug-in for FreeNAS, since one exists and I already have a box set up running FreeNAS.

BUT if I wanted a more turnkey NAS that I knew would support Plex out of the box AND had some room to grow? One that prioritized the goal of storing and consuming media above that of long-term archival storage? I'm guessing it would probably come down to a choice between one made by Synology or QNAP. Only problem is, since SOHO boxes usually ship with anemic processors, transcoding 4K footage is going to be an issue. Some of them have built-in hardware assistance, but that's something that will only work with whichever specific codecs are built into the hardware, meaning if your device requests any codec that's not built in, it might stutter or just drop out entirely. Not a big problem right now, but HEVC/H.265 is growing in popularity, and will no doubt replace H.264 someday. Also, turns out the version of Plex that supports hardware transcoding costs extra money anyway.

THEREFORE I would choose one whose processor is capable of transcoding in software, since all it takes to add new codecs in software is just to update that software. I would also pick a NAS that's relatively new so that it's not in danger of being discontinued/unsupported any time soon. Consulting the Plex people's compatibility list, there are not very many that can decode 4K UHD HDR in software. In fact, there are only three, all made by QNAP:

QNAP TS-877-1700 (Ryzen 7 1700) - US$2500
QNAP TVS-882BRT3-i7 (Core i7-7700) - US$2700
QNAP TVS-1282T/1282T3-i5/i7 (Core i5-7500/i7-7700) - US$3700-4500

These prices are all without any drives installed, by the way. Clearly, if I want something I can actually afford, the solution is either going to be to noticeably lower my standards, or else roll my own. But since this is an exercise in choosing an off-the-shelf solution, I will continue to ignore the DIY side of things. So how low can I go? A quick check of the ones that can decode 4K UHD SDR still puts those at or near US$2000, but I'm looking for something closer to $1500* (or lower), so it looks like we're going to be looking only at the ones that say they can do 1080p in software. Hardware assist would be nice, but again since it is an extra cost (to upgrade Plex), I will not consider it essential.

Most people have sizable libraries of media, so I will also not even look at any NAS with less than 4 bays, preferably not less than 6. I'm also not going to consider any NAS that only ranks "some" in software decoding of 1080p. It must be a full "yes."

Ah, now we're getting into the sub-US$1000's-ish. Again, sticking with only the models on the Plex list:

Asustor AS-4004T - US$450 - Wow what a price!
QNAP TVS-473e - US$1050 - BUT...
QNAP TVS-673e - US$1100 - Same as the above but you get 2 add'l bays for under $100 more.

Pretty much every other NAS in the list was either too expensive, didn't have enough bays, was too old, or got passed over for some other reason. I really wasn't expecting to narrow the list down to so few, and I was expecting there to be more of a fight between models from Synology and QNAP, but either the Plex people just haven't tested enough Synology NASes yet, or else Synology's lineup is too focused on business use instead of SOHO/Personal.

So based on all this, I guess the QNAP TVS-673e is the one to compare everything else against, with the Asustor as a dark horse competitor based solely on its remarkably low price. There is the VERY REAL possibility that manufacturers have released newer models that have not yet made it into the Plex compatibility list, and that I therefore could not compare. If so, check their hardware specs against other similar models that are on the Plex list to get some idea what they're capable of. One NAS with a Core i7-7700 performs much like any other with the same processor, and in the case where the CPU has been upgraded or changed in the newer model, there are sites like Passmark's CPU pages where you can estimate how much difference the new CPU might make.

--Patrick
*I know I said I'm going to avoid the DIY method, but once the price goes noticeably over $1500, it REALLY starts to make more sense to roll your own if you don't need integrated hardware.


#120

Tinwhistler

Tinwhistler

incidentally, for what it's worth, when I rip CDs to the library, I use Handbrake (a free tool) to transcode it into a Roku-friendly format so no transcoding work is necessary by my TerraMaster


#121

PatrThom

PatrThom

Tinwhistler said:
when I rip CDs to the library
Click to expand...
...did you mean DVDs?
And yes, much like everything else in life, the more work you do ahead of time, the less work it'll have to do later.

--Patrick


#122

Tinwhistler

Tinwhistler

PatrThom said:
...did you mean DVDs?
And yes, much like everything else in life, the more work you do ahead of time, the less work it'll have to do later.

--Patrick
Click to expand...
Yes, that's what I meant. I'm old. Cut me some slack ;)


#123

PatrThom

PatrThom

Tinwhistler said:
Yes, that's what I meant. I'm old. Cut me some slack ;)
Click to expand...
My wife's grandfather called CDs "those little bitty silver records."

--Patrick


#124

jwhouk

jwhouk

PatrThom said:
My wife's grandfather called CDs "those little bitty silver records."

--Patrick
Click to expand...
Well, he’s technically correct...


#125

Gared

Gared

Alright, @PatrThom, we've seen what you would buy off the shelf - what would you do if you wanted to roll your own? Assume it doesn't have to work with Plex, because I'm too much of a lazy bastard to set up my Plex server appropriately right now. Apparently Newegg was out of free 2TB WD Green drives, so I got a 120GB drive. On the one hand, it's free. And on the other, what am I going to do with a 120GB SSD?


#126

PatrThom

PatrThom

PatrThom said:
since SOHO boxes usually ship with anemic processors, transcoding 4K footage is going to be an issue. Some of them have built-in hardware assistance, but that's something that will only work with whichever specific codecs are built into the hardware, meaning if your device requests any codec that's not built in, it might stutter or just drop out entirely. Not a big problem right now, but HEVC/H.265 is growing in popularity, and will no doubt replace H.264 someday.
Click to expand...
AAAAND they've now announced H.266/VVC and all its wonderfulness. Half the data rate of H.265/HEVC, but again it needs either more horsepower or dedicated decoding blocks in the processor/GPU in order to take advantage.
Gared said:
what am I going to do with a 120GB SSD?
Click to expand...
They make good boot drives for FreeNAS/TrueNAS/PFSense or whatever other purpose-built boxen you put together.
Failing that, they can also be dropped into an enclosure to use for sneakernet file transfer.
Gared said:
what would you do if you wanted to roll your own?
Click to expand...
Funny you should mention that. After putting together my training box, my next step was to tape out something a bit more... robust. I haven't built it yet because money, of course, but I wanted the satisfaction of researching the parts to be ready to go.
Let me see if I can find where I put the HW list... ah, here it is:

MLB - ASRock Rack C236 WSI (Mini-ITX w/ 8 on-board SATA ports!)
RAM - 32GB (2x16GB) DDR4-2400 unbuffered ECC (or slower if slower is a lot cheaper)
CPU - Intel Xeon E3-1225 v6 (the v5's use lower power, with the Xeon E3-1235L v5 the lowest, but v5=Skylake, v6=Kaby Lake)
HSF - Noctua NH-U12S
SSD - StarTech PEX2M2 2xM.2 PCIe adapter (with paired SATA3 M.2 drives to create a mirrored boot volume)
HDD - 7x whatever HDD mounted in 7x5.25->3.5 shock-absorbing drive mounts
CAS - iStar USA S-917
OS - FreeNAS/TrueNAS CORE

I am not sure the case is still available, but it looks like it's made for NAS.
I have seen some reviews complaining about the reliability of that MLB, but I have not searched to see if it's the board or just some guy badmouthing it everywhere.

A reminder that my intent was to make a RAIDZ3 (4 data + 3 redundancy) for maximum data integrity/longevity, so 7 bays fit perfectly for my requirement.
Using the M.2 adapter means I won't be able to drop in a 10G Ethernet card later, but since those are $$$ right now I didn't think it'd be a big deal.

--Patrick


#127

Gared

Gared

PatrThom said:
Let me see if I can find where I put the HW list... ah, here it is:

MLB - ASRock Rack C236 WSI (Mini-ITX w/ 8 on-board SATA ports!)
RAM - 32GB (2x16GB) DDR4-2400 unbuffered ECC (or slower if slower is a lot cheaper)
CPU - Intel Xeon E3-1225 v6 (the v5's use lower power, with the Xeon E3-1235L v5 the lowest, but v5=Skylake, v6=Kaby Lake)
HSF - Noctua NH-U12S
SSD - StarTech PEX2M2 2xM.2 PCIe adapter (with paired SATA3 M.2 drives to create a mirrored boot volume)
HDD - 7x whatever HDD mounted in 7x5.25->3.5 shock-absorbing drive mounts
CAS - iStar USA S-917
OS - FreeNAS/TrueNAS CORE

I am not sure the case is still available, but it looks like it's made for NAS.
I have seen some reviews complaining about the reliability of that MLB, but I have not searched to see if it's the board or just some guy badmouthing it everywhere.

A reminder that my intent was to make a RAIDZ3 (4 data + 3 redundancy) for maximum data integrity/longevity, so 7 bays fit perfectly for my requirement.
Using the M.2 adapter means I won't be able to drop in a 10G Ethernet card later, but since those are $$$ right now I didn't think it'd be a big deal.

--Patrick
Click to expand...
Not too shabby. For about $2100, all off of Amazon - and I'm sure I can find better deals than that. Thank you. It is definitely time for some tech upgrades around here. Replacing the Samsung S7s that were mostly dead before we were done paying them off was a great start.


#128

Bones

Bones

Gared said:
Replacing the Samsung S7s that were mostly dead before we were done paying them off was a great start.
Click to expand...
DUDE, same problem here, my S20+ has been so much better.


#129

PatrThom

PatrThom

At the time I first built that list, 4TB Seagate NAS drives were going for about $100/ea, and buying $700 worth of 'em (for about 30.5TB usable storage) would've been almost 40% of the system's entire budget, but then again the drives usually end up being the majority of any NAS's price. Nowadays I think I might look into pricing it out with 6-8TB.

As you might be able to tell, half the thrill for me of building a new system is hunting down what I believe to be THE most relevant/appropriate parts for whatever purpose I'm pursuing. :D

--Patrick


#130

Gared

Gared

PatrThom said:
At the time I first built that list, 4TB Seagate NAS drives were going for about $100/ea, and buying $700 worth of 'em (for about 30.5TB usable storage) would've been almost 40% of the system's entire budget, but then again the drives usually end up being the majority of any NAS's price. Nowadays I think I might look into pricing it out with 6-8TB.

As you might be able to tell, half the thrill for me of building a new system is hunting down what I believe to be THE most relevant/appropriate parts for whatever purpose I'm pursuing. :D

--Patrick
Click to expand...
A man after my own heart. My biggest issue always seems to be that I can spec out the best there is, but then I sit and debate whether or not it's really necessary and wind up with something half-assed and a dollar short that dies after a suspiciously short amount of time because I'd tried to save money, and then I wind up spending even more money to fix or replace what I bought the previous time. Of course, it doesn't help that every brand in the last forty years has seemed to spend their history building up a good rep, and just before I buy something from them, they get bought out by a corporate raider and their product and service goes to hell. In the last decade and a half I've been burned by Samsung, Phillips (sp?), KitchenAid, Whirlpool, Black & Decker, Craftsman, Sony, HP, Bissell, Hoover, Amana, and of course, Amazon. If I run into this problem in a couple weeks when I start looking to replace the flooring in my house, I'm gonna be pissy.


#131

PatrThom

PatrThom

Gared said:
it doesn't help that every brand in the last forty years has seemed to spend their history building up a good rep, and just before I buy something from them, they get bought out by a corporate raider and their product and service goes to hell.
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Dude!

--Patrick


#132

Gared

Gared

PatrThom said:
Dude!

--Patrick
Click to expand...
Oh relax, nobody's buying anyone else right now.


#133

PatrThom

PatrThom

Gared said:
Oh relax, nobody's buying anyone else right now.
Click to expand...
I mean, you're wrong there (and don't get me started on the whole Virgin/Sprint/Boost/T-Mobile/Dish thing), but I was just expressing my sympathy since it's something I also stumble over frequently.
The only defense I've found is to research the absolute hell out of something until my notes look like that Always Sunny meme, and by then frequently any of the older "good" ones have skyrocketed in price.

--Patrick


#134

Gared

Gared

Oh, there's one very important piece I need to upgrade, speaking of upgrades. What's the best wifi router these days? Mine was supplied by my ISP.


#135

PatrThom

PatrThom

I'm still bumping along on 2013 802.11ac er I mean WiFi 5-based gear, but that's mainly because none of the client stuff in my house is new enough to be able to use WiFi 6 ("ax") capability (nor will it any time soon), and as it is I think I only have TWO devices that can even use WiFi 5/ac.

I therefore may not be the best person to ask, since I'm pretty much moving towards a topology where I have a homebuilt wired router hooked up to APs (which right now are just my old ac routers but dumbed down to bridge mode) rather than a single central unit coupled to my ISP's box.

I think the NetGear Nighthawk AX line is, like, the poster child for 6/ax, but people also won't shut up about some ASUS model, though. Hang on a sec...
Ok I think they're talking about the RoG Rapture AX11000 ($450), which looks more like a conference table out of a 90's SciFi show, but if you're going to go ASUS, I think the RT-AX88U ($400) looks more appealing (less G4M3Z0RR). There's at least one review showing the performance of the ASUS routers has issues under AX, but they seem to think this is an underlying Broadcom thing, and not an ASUS problem. MAYbe this has something to do with the fact that Broadcom was bought out by Avago Technology about five years ago, buuuuuut... you never know.

The above is all off-the-cuff, no real research done, reputation only, but one thing is becoming clear even over the last 20min of searches: I would NOT get any new 6/ax router/AP that does not support OFDMA.

--Patrick


#136

GasBandit

GasBandit

Gared said:
Oh, there's one very important piece I need to upgrade, speaking of upgrades. What's the best wifi router these days? Mine was supplied by my ISP.
Click to expand...
I've been pretty happy with my TPLink Archer A7.

It's just 802.11ac, but I mean really, do you need your wireless to be faster than 1300mb/s?


#137

Gared

Gared

GasBandit said:
I've been pretty happy with my TPLink Archer A7.

It's just 802.11ac, but I mean really, do you need your wireless to be faster than 1300mb/s?
Click to expand...
Sweet, it'll be here Monday.


#138

Denbrought

Denbrought

GasBandit said:
I've been pretty happy with my TPLink Archer A7.

It's just 802.11ac, but I mean really, do you need your wireless to be faster than 1300mb/s?
Click to expand...
+1 for TP-Link. I have an AC4000, and it fits our house well (2-story, 4 users that are constantly connected with multiple devices each doing bandwidth-intensive stuff).


#139

Gared

Gared

Gas and I are running the same VPN/Seedbox software, so if he says it works for him, it goes to the top of the list.


#140

Gared

Gared

I have to add ASRock to the list of brands that have completely and utterly failed me. Also - can someone recommend a good site to buy prebuilt computers from? I need Aislynn's computer to be up and running smoothly, and I just cannot get the build to go together. I'm going to have to return a video card because it doesn't fit either of the ASRock motherboards I have, and it's an ASRock video card - but the card's heatsink is so large that it conflicts with everything near it - which means that my 570X Pro4 and my 370X Pro4 are both incompatible because of how large the bridge heatsinks are on ASRock motherboards.


#141

PatrThom

PatrThom

Gared said:
my 570X Pro4 and my 370X Pro4 are both incompatible because of how large the bridge heatsinks are on ASRock motherboards.
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I would like to know more about this. Mainly because there are actual standards and keep-out zones, and if they’re not respecting that stuff, I want to know.

...but I’m at work rn, so I probably won’t be able to do any research until this evening anyway blaaaaah.

—Patrick


#142

Tinwhistler

Tinwhistler

Gared said:
Also - can someone recommend a good site to buy prebuilt computers from?
Click to expand...
1595189113986.png


:rofl:


#143

Gared

Gared

Tinwhistler said:
View attachment 34687

:rofl:
Click to expand...
I said good site... but I also noticed a distinct lack of options last night.


#144

Gared

Gared

PatrThom said:
I would like to know more about this. Mainly because there are actual standards and keep-out zones, and if they’re not respecting that stuff, I want to know.

...but I’m at work rn, so I probably won’t be able to do any research until this evening anyway blaaaaah.

—Patrick
Click to expand...
Let me make sure my model numbers are all in order here:
The motherboard in my computer is the ASRock X370 Pro4.
The motherboard I bought for Aislynn's computer is the ASRock X570M Pro4
The video card I bought is the ASRock Phantom Gaming Radeon RX570 (8GB, DirectX 12).

Several issues that I've run into are:
1. The motherboard locations of the RAM slots on both motherboards are so close to the CPU slot that the Wraith Stealth coolers they ship with Ryzen chips block one of the four slots. You're ok if you switch to an EVO 212, but even then the slots are so close together on the board that you have to skip slots with RAM and can't use all four regardless.
2. The X570M Pro4 has two PCIE slots that can handle a video card, but there is a conflict with each of them. The first slot, closer inboard to the CPU, has a long heatsink that runs almost the length of the board, which is too tall for the profile of the video card's onboard heatsink/cooling sleeve. The second slot, almost on the very edge of the board, butts up right against all of the chassis fan jumpers/case-front switch controllers/etc., and that cooling sleeve drops right down and blocks them all.
3. The X370 Pro4 has two slots as well (and was supposed to support SLI, I believe), but neither of them has enough length-clearance, before you get to another big-ass ASRock branded heatsink that runs the width of the frickin' expansion slot space.

I'm really not sure whether the ASRock RX570 is at fault, or the two motherboards, but I will say that the 750Ti that I'm still rocking from a while back fits both boards just fine.


#145

PatrThom

PatrThom

(these are all about the X570M Pro4)

-Many motherboards these days have lousy RAM slot placement, by which I mean that your GPU will frequently obstruct you from opening your RAM clips. Usually no way around it other than to install your RAM first, then GPU after.
-According to your manual, he best RAM configuration is for only 2 sticks installed in slots A2 (2nd from CPU) and B2 (4th from CPU). Won't that give you a little more room?
-Are you mounting the cooler with the cable bump facing the back of the computer? If you mount the cooler with the bump facing the front of your case, it will interfere with the RAM slots. Page 15 of the manual shows the cooler mounted with the cable bump facing back. And I already know how easy it can be to mess that up. :)
-You said you can't fit all your RAM in there. Are you using RAM with ginormous heat spreaders or something? MLB makers don't always leave room for those.
-Graphics cards are also supposed to be made to conform to standard dimensions. If your card is bumping up against a heatsink on the board, then either the card or heatsink (or both?) is installed/constructed improperly. That "M.2 Armor" heatsink is removable, was it not reattached properly, or do you have an M.2 stick under there that's too thick for the shield to fully seat?

Why did you get a 570GPU instead of a 580GPU? Was there that much difference in the price? The 580 is something like 20% faster.

--Patrick


#146

Gared

Gared

PatrThom said:
(these are all about the X570M Pro4)

-Many motherboards these days have lousy RAM slot placement, by which I mean that your GPU will frequently obstruct you from opening your RAM clips. Usually no way around it other than to install your RAM first, then GPU after.
-According to your manual, he best RAM configuration is for only 2 sticks installed in slots A2 (2nd from CPU) and B2 (4th from CPU). Won't that give you a little more room?
-Are you mounting the cooler with the cable bump facing the back of the computer? If you mount the cooler with the bump facing the front of your case, it will interfere with the RAM slots. Page 15 of the manual shows the cooler mounted with the cable bump facing back. And I already know how easy it can be to mess that up. :)
-You said you can't fit all your RAM in there. Are you using RAM with ginormous heat spreaders or something? MLB makers don't always leave room for those.
-Graphics cards are also supposed to be made to conform to standard dimensions. If your card is bumping up against a heatsink on the board, then either the card or heatsink (or both?) is installed/constructed improperly. That "M.2 Armor" heatsink is removable, was it not reattached properly, or do you have an M.2 stick under there that's too thick for the shield to fully seat?

Why did you get a 570GPU instead of a 580GPU? Was there that much difference in the price? The 580 is something like 20% faster.

--Patrick
Click to expand...
Must remember to come back to this later/tomorrow. For now, assume that I'm so far behind on building my own computers that I'm just gonna duck on out and buy something for now, and use these parts to upgrade my computer, so we can use what's currently running my computer for a server.


#147

PatrThom

PatrThom

Western Digital is in trouble again for misreporting their drives' specs:
[T]he new complaint is that Western Digital calls 7200RPM drives "5400 RPM Class"—and the drives' own firmware report 5400 RPM via the SMART interface. [...] Spectral analysis of the recorded audio [of a spinning drive] using Adobe Audition showed a baseline frequency of 120Hz for two models of WD 8TB "5400 RPM class" drive. 120 cycles/sec multiplied to 60 secs/min comes to 7,200 cycles/min. So in other words, these "5400 RPM class" drives really were spinning at 7,200rpm.
Click to expand...
--Patrick


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