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Underage teen drinking? Take away their driver's license!
#1
Dave
Dave
I can't find a link on this as I heard it on the radio news, but the Nebraska Unicameral is debating a law right now that would take away the driver's licenses of underage drinkers who were caught, regardless of the circumstances of their capture. So if they were at a party drinking and the cops came they would be ticketed and lose their license even though they weren't driving!!
I have a problem with this. First, I am not against underage kids drinking in controlled environments like a family gathering, etc. I believe it's the demonization of alcohol that makes kids want to binge drink when they finally get the chance. If my son wants to have a beer at home he's more than welcome. My daughter wants a glass of wine I have no issues with that. If they are at a party and have been drinking they can call me even if it's 4 in the morning and not get into trouble. If they drive, though, they are done.
I think this is feel good stupid legislation that solves nothing and punishes the wrong way. If they were driving, take it away. If not, I fail to see why this is the punishment.
I have a problem with this. First, I am not against underage kids drinking in controlled environments like a family gathering, etc. I believe it's the demonization of alcohol that makes kids want to binge drink when they finally get the chance. If my son wants to have a beer at home he's more than welcome. My daughter wants a glass of wine I have no issues with that. If they are at a party and have been drinking they can call me even if it's 4 in the morning and not get into trouble. If they drive, though, they are done.
I think this is feel good stupid legislation that solves nothing and punishes the wrong way. If they were driving, take it away. If not, I fail to see why this is the punishment.
#2
Chibibar
I'm with you on if they are driving, take it away.
What if the cops "bust" our house cause we are having a family gathering and some of the underage drink, this law would cause them to lose license too. That is just silly.
Chibibar
I have to agree. I think it is the "puritan" who want to do away with alcohol. The problem with this legislation I see is that people will drink irresponsibly at later life. I do like your situation (which I will do with my kids when I get mine). I have always been a designated driver for many parties (except a couple) so I want my kids to know that I'm ok with them drinking (in moderation and not make a big deal out of it) and pick them up.I can't find a link on this as I heard it on the radio news, but the Nebraska Unicameral is debating a law right now that would take away the driver's licenses of underage drinkers who were caught, regardless of the circumstances of their capture. So if they were at a party drinking and the cops came they would be ticketed and lose their license even though they weren't driving!!
I have a problem with this. First, I am not against underage kids drinking in controlled environments like a family gathering, etc. I believe it's the demonization of alcohol that makes kids want to binge drink when they finally get the chance. If my son wants to have a beer at home he's more than welcome. My daughter wants a glass of wine I have no issues with that. If they are at a party and have been drinking they can call me even if it's 4 in the morning and not get into trouble. If they drive, though, they are done.
I think this is feel good stupid legislation that solves nothing and punishes the wrong way. If they were driving, take it away. If not, I fail to see why this is the punishment.
I'm with you on if they are driving, take it away.
What if the cops "bust" our house cause we are having a family gathering and some of the underage drink, this law would cause them to lose license too. That is just silly.
#3
Shakey
Shakey
I have a feeling this would just cause the opposite effect they want. If someone has the potential to lose their license whether they drive or not, they may just say fuck it I'll drive anyway.
#4
Bowielee
Bowielee
Reading the title, I was going to be all, "RABBLE, RABBLE, they deserve it." until I read the part where it was regardless of whether they were driving or not. That's pretty stupid.
#5
Frankie Williamson
Frankie Williamson
I don't usually have to deal with a ton of underage drinking here (our drinking age in Alberta is 18) and even when I do, it's generally easier just to call parents than to bother with charges. I would never enforce a that law, I can say without a shadow of a doubt.
#6
makare
makare
We must have that same law here. I knew people in high school who did chose not to drink because they didn't want to lose their license. So it works as a deterrent somewhat.
#7
Dave
Dave
What else is there to do in South Dakota?!?We must have that same law here. I knew people in high school who did chose not to drink because they didn't want to lose their license. So it works as a deterrent somewhat.
#8
MindDetective
MindDetective
I say we deleted their saved Playstation games and ringtones. That oughta parent the hell out of those irresponsible kids.
---------- Post added at 12:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:05 PM ----------
By the way, teaching your kids to drink alcohol properly at home may not be genuinely good advice: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100127095930.htm I'm not saying the law they are discussing is good, just that the conclusion that providing alcohol at home does not necessarily lead to proper behavior elsewhere. Social influences are extremely powerful things.
---------- Post added at 12:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:05 PM ----------
By the way, teaching your kids to drink alcohol properly at home may not be genuinely good advice: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100127095930.htm I'm not saying the law they are discussing is good, just that the conclusion that providing alcohol at home does not necessarily lead to proper behavior elsewhere. Social influences are extremely powerful things.
#9
makare
What are you saying what else besides enforcing law or what else besides being drunken idiots?
I didn't drink in high school and I always had plenty to do.
makare
What else is there to do in South Dakota?!?[/QUOTE]We must have that same law here. I knew people in high school who did chose not to drink because they didn't want to lose their license. So it works as a deterrent somewhat.
What are you saying what else besides enforcing law or what else besides being drunken idiots?
I didn't drink in high school and I always had plenty to do.
#10
GasBandit
GasBandit
Well, if the ends are justifying the means now, there's all kinds of great things we can start doing.We must have that same law here. I knew people in high school who did chose not to drink because they didn't want to lose their license. So it works as a deterrent somewhat.
#11
makare
makare
The end result has always been the point of the means. Taking away a license does not warrant the whiny "oh if the ends justify the means then blah blah blah". Everything anyone does is meant to bring about a certain end, people are arrested and jailed to further the end that there will be punishment for crime and less criminals on the street. That is what the law does. In this case, if teenagers are not going to to take the law seriously the law punishes in a way they take seriously. It's hardly taking them out and caning them.
#12
Dave
Dave
But the punishment has nothing to do with the crime. It would be like taking away the children of a shoplifter because that would send a more powerful message than just a ticket or small amount of jail time. Add to this the fact that the higher insurance rates punish the parents and I think the whole idea is stupid.The end result has always been the point of the means. Taking away a license does not warrant the whiny "oh if the ends justify the means then blah blah blah". Everything anyone does is meant to bring about a certain end, people are arrested and jailed to further the end that there will be punishment for crime and less criminals on the street. That is what the law does. In this case, if teenagers are not going to to take the law seriously the law punishes in a way they take seriously. It's hardly taking them out and caning them.
#13
Kitty Sinatra
Kitty Sinatra
How long are they taking away the licenses for?
#14
sixpackshaker
sixpackshaker
Long enough to put a family in financial difficulties. Hey little Johnny you did exactly what the vast majority of all children have done at your age. Now you can no longer drive yourself to work or school. Hope you enjoy riding the yellow dog to school, and losing the job you have to help your folks make ends meet.How long are they taking away the licenses for?
#15
makare
makare
What does locking someone up in prison have to do with the crime of taking someone's life? We are not eye for an eye here. Taking a license sends a message to the offender of the seriousness of the crime. What would an eye for an eye punishment be for drinking anyway?
#16
GasBandit
GasBandit
Actually, I think public caning might be a more appropriate penalty. And it'd get even better results. Pain and humiliation, and the desire to avoid them, can be exquisite motivation.The end result has always been the point of the means. Taking away a license does not warrant the whiny "oh if the ends justify the means then blah blah blah". Everything anyone does is meant to bring about a certain end, people are arrested and jailed to further the end that there will be punishment for crime and less criminals on the street. That is what the law does. In this case, if teenagers are not going to to take the law seriously the law punishes in a way they take seriously. It's hardly taking them out and caning them.
#17
sixpackshaker
You send the message that what has been a right of passage is now going to be treated like a serious felony.
sixpackshaker
You lock the killer up to keep them away from the normal law abiding citizens of the land.What does locking someone up in prison have to do with the crime of taking someone's life? We are not eye for an eye here. Taking a license sends a message to the offender of the seriousness of the crime. What would an eye for an eye punishment be for drinking anyway?
You send the message that what has been a right of passage is now going to be treated like a serious felony.
#18
Dave
Dave
Taking away the license has NOTHING to do with the crime. None. At all. It's just a bullying technique. Your assertion that locking someone up in jail having nothing to do with murder is just dumb.What does locking someone up in prison have to do with the crime of taking someone's life? We are not eye for an eye here. Taking a license sends a message to the offender of the seriousness of the crime. What would an eye for an eye punishment be for drinking anyway?
#19
makare
makare
It is not dumb at all. You are pointing out how they aren't related. How often are they related? Not very. What punishment would you suggest exactly? Community service what does that have to do with drinking?
The right of passage argument really pisses me off. If you have a problem with the law work to change the law don't celebrate a violation of the law just because many people do it. Also, my sister has lost her license due to her recent charges (not as a minor) but she is still able to make it to work just fine.
The right of passage argument really pisses me off. If you have a problem with the law work to change the law don't celebrate a violation of the law just because many people do it. Also, my sister has lost her license due to her recent charges (not as a minor) but she is still able to make it to work just fine.
#20
Kitty Sinatra
(not the best example, since apparently Washington's court overturned this just last month)
Kitty Sinatra
Does taking away a felon's right/privelege to vote have anything to do with their crime?Taking away the license has NOTHING to do with the crime. None.
(not the best example, since apparently Washington's court overturned this just last month)
#21
makare
(not the best example, since apparently Washington's court overturned this just last month)[/QUOTE]
Really? I hadnt heard about that. That's great.
makare
Does taking away a felon's right/privelege to vote have anything to do with their crime?Taking away the license has NOTHING to do with the crime. None.
(not the best example, since apparently Washington's court overturned this just last month)[/QUOTE]
Really? I hadnt heard about that. That's great.
#22
MindDetective
To not get caught. Not necessarily to not engage in the act.
MindDetective
Actually, I think public caning might be a more appropriate penalty. And it'd get even better results. Pain and humiliation, and the desire to avoid them, can be exquisite motivation.[/QUOTE]The end result has always been the point of the means. Taking away a license does not warrant the whiny "oh if the ends justify the means then blah blah blah". Everything anyone does is meant to bring about a certain end, people are arrested and jailed to further the end that there will be punishment for crime and less criminals on the street. That is what the law does. In this case, if teenagers are not going to to take the law seriously the law punishes in a way they take seriously. It's hardly taking them out and caning them.
To not get caught. Not necessarily to not engage in the act.
#24
tegid
But you are right, if everyone does it then the law should be changed instead of saying 'hey, it doesn't matter, everyone does it'.
tegid
That's nice but isn't really a valid point.It is not dumb at all. You are pointing out how they aren't related. How often are they related? Not very. What punishment would you suggest exactly? Community service what does that have to do with drinking?
The right of passage argument really pisses me off. If you have a problem with the law work to change the law don't celebrate a violation of the law just because many people do it. Also, my sister has lost her license due to her recent charges (not as a minor) but she is still able to make it to work just fine.
But you are right, if everyone does it then the law should be changed instead of saying 'hey, it doesn't matter, everyone does it'.
#25
sixpackshaker
sixpackshaker
It is hard to jump out and protest this act and call upon the crafters of this new municipal code, BECAUSE IS JUST READ ABOUT IT. MIP minor in possession is a misdemeanor with a ticket with a fine and community service (maybe.) DWI is a felony if it is a repeated offense.It is not dumb at all. You are pointing out how they aren't related. How often are they related? Not very. What punishment would you suggest exactly? Community service what does that have to do with drinking?
The right of passage argument really pisses me off. If you have a problem with the law work to change the law don't celebrate a violation of the law just because many people do it. Also, my sister has lost her license due to her recent charges (not as a minor) but she is still able to make it to work just fine.
#26
makare
makare
It's valid as an argument against the "oh no! he doesnt have a license his family will surely suffer!". There are many different ways to get to work, carpool whatever. also the court will often give a work release just for work travel.
#27
GasBandit
To not get caught. Not necessarily to not engage in the act.[/QUOTE]
Isn't that true of pretty much any punishment?
GasBandit
Actually, I think public caning might be a more appropriate penalty. And it'd get even better results. Pain and humiliation, and the desire to avoid them, can be exquisite motivation.[/QUOTE]The end result has always been the point of the means. Taking away a license does not warrant the whiny "oh if the ends justify the means then blah blah blah". Everything anyone does is meant to bring about a certain end, people are arrested and jailed to further the end that there will be punishment for crime and less criminals on the street. That is what the law does. In this case, if teenagers are not going to to take the law seriously the law punishes in a way they take seriously. It's hardly taking them out and caning them.
To not get caught. Not necessarily to not engage in the act.[/QUOTE]
Isn't that true of pretty much any punishment?
#28
MindDetective
To not get caught. Not necessarily to not engage in the act.[/QUOTE]
Isn't that true of pretty much any punishment?[/QUOTE]
Almost every punishment, yes. Some punishments may genuinely change the behavior by producing the desired behavior as a result. Then you have a combination of punishment and correction.
MindDetective
Actually, I think public caning might be a more appropriate penalty. And it'd get even better results. Pain and humiliation, and the desire to avoid them, can be exquisite motivation.[/QUOTE]The end result has always been the point of the means. Taking away a license does not warrant the whiny "oh if the ends justify the means then blah blah blah". Everything anyone does is meant to bring about a certain end, people are arrested and jailed to further the end that there will be punishment for crime and less criminals on the street. That is what the law does. In this case, if teenagers are not going to to take the law seriously the law punishes in a way they take seriously. It's hardly taking them out and caning them.
To not get caught. Not necessarily to not engage in the act.[/QUOTE]
Isn't that true of pretty much any punishment?[/QUOTE]
Almost every punishment, yes. Some punishments may genuinely change the behavior by producing the desired behavior as a result. Then you have a combination of punishment and correction.
#29
GasBandit
To not get caught. Not necessarily to not engage in the act.[/QUOTE]
Isn't that true of pretty much any punishment?[/QUOTE]
Almost every punishment, yes. Some punishments may genuinely change the behavior by producing the desired behavior as a result. Then you have a combination of punishment and correction.[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure there are any punishments that, given all other factors being equal, have more tendency to just encourage "not getting caught" any more or less than any other, as opposed to genuine behavioral correction. For instance, makare's high school friends who she says "didn't drink because they didn't want to lose their license" probably wouldn't have said "oh, they're changing it to public flogging? Well, then we can do it, just make sure we don't get caught." The "motivation not to get caught" part would normally only come into play where the ability to enforce the law (or catch the criminal) was in question, which is also independent of the nature of the punishment.
GasBandit
Actually, I think public caning might be a more appropriate penalty. And it'd get even better results. Pain and humiliation, and the desire to avoid them, can be exquisite motivation.[/QUOTE]The end result has always been the point of the means. Taking away a license does not warrant the whiny "oh if the ends justify the means then blah blah blah". Everything anyone does is meant to bring about a certain end, people are arrested and jailed to further the end that there will be punishment for crime and less criminals on the street. That is what the law does. In this case, if teenagers are not going to to take the law seriously the law punishes in a way they take seriously. It's hardly taking them out and caning them.
To not get caught. Not necessarily to not engage in the act.[/QUOTE]
Isn't that true of pretty much any punishment?[/QUOTE]
Almost every punishment, yes. Some punishments may genuinely change the behavior by producing the desired behavior as a result. Then you have a combination of punishment and correction.[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure there are any punishments that, given all other factors being equal, have more tendency to just encourage "not getting caught" any more or less than any other, as opposed to genuine behavioral correction. For instance, makare's high school friends who she says "didn't drink because they didn't want to lose their license" probably wouldn't have said "oh, they're changing it to public flogging? Well, then we can do it, just make sure we don't get caught." The "motivation not to get caught" part would normally only come into play where the ability to enforce the law (or catch the criminal) was in question, which is also independent of the nature of the punishment.
#30
makare
makare
Im not sure what you are arguing exactly but for example, had the punishment been community service instead of loss of license I am certain they would have thrown caution to the wind and drank. The loss of their license, that symbol of freedom and independence, had specific importance to them. I don't think they would have wanted to be beaten, obviously but not all punishments would get the same results.
#31
MindDetective
To not get caught. Not necessarily to not engage in the act.[/QUOTE]
Isn't that true of pretty much any punishment?[/QUOTE]
Almost every punishment, yes. Some punishments may genuinely change the behavior by producing the desired behavior as a result. Then you have a combination of punishment and correction.[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure there are any punishments that, given all other factors being equal, have more tendency to just encourage "not getting caught" any more or less than any other, as opposed to genuine behavioral correction. For instance, makare's high school friends who she says "didn't drink because they didn't want to lose their license" probably wouldn't have said "oh, they're changing it to public flogging? Well, then we can do it, just make sure we don't get caught." The "motivation not to get caught" part would normally only come into play where the ability to enforce the law (or catch the criminal) was in question, which is also independent of the nature of the punishment.[/QUOTE]
Example: Girl comes home and drops coat on the floor. You can punish the girl with a scolding, reducing allowance, whatever. But maybe she just drops it on the floor in her room instead of by the door and avoids getting caught as much. Have the girl put the coat on, go back outside, come back in, remove the coat, and hang it up. This may be punishing (imagine the eye-rolling) but it is also corrective in the sense that it instills the proper behavior for the next time.
MindDetective
Actually, I think public caning might be a more appropriate penalty. And it'd get even better results. Pain and humiliation, and the desire to avoid them, can be exquisite motivation.[/QUOTE]The end result has always been the point of the means. Taking away a license does not warrant the whiny "oh if the ends justify the means then blah blah blah". Everything anyone does is meant to bring about a certain end, people are arrested and jailed to further the end that there will be punishment for crime and less criminals on the street. That is what the law does. In this case, if teenagers are not going to to take the law seriously the law punishes in a way they take seriously. It's hardly taking them out and caning them.
To not get caught. Not necessarily to not engage in the act.[/QUOTE]
Isn't that true of pretty much any punishment?[/QUOTE]
Almost every punishment, yes. Some punishments may genuinely change the behavior by producing the desired behavior as a result. Then you have a combination of punishment and correction.[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure there are any punishments that, given all other factors being equal, have more tendency to just encourage "not getting caught" any more or less than any other, as opposed to genuine behavioral correction. For instance, makare's high school friends who she says "didn't drink because they didn't want to lose their license" probably wouldn't have said "oh, they're changing it to public flogging? Well, then we can do it, just make sure we don't get caught." The "motivation not to get caught" part would normally only come into play where the ability to enforce the law (or catch the criminal) was in question, which is also independent of the nature of the punishment.[/QUOTE]
Example: Girl comes home and drops coat on the floor. You can punish the girl with a scolding, reducing allowance, whatever. But maybe she just drops it on the floor in her room instead of by the door and avoids getting caught as much. Have the girl put the coat on, go back outside, come back in, remove the coat, and hang it up. This may be punishing (imagine the eye-rolling) but it is also corrective in the sense that it instills the proper behavior for the next time.
#32
sixpackshaker
sixpackshaker
I don't know if it is current now or not, but some states take a kid's license away for truancy, or dropping out of school. That still is a load of crap.
#33
GasBandit
GasBandit
Well, by that rationale then, the most corrective punishment would be to force the kid to not drink alcohol? There are situations where corrective punishment of that nature is unfeasable, and this is one of them. Your example works because it is teaching them to do X instead of Y, but when the lesson is simply "don't do Y" and X is an infinite set of everything EXCEPT Y, it naturally follows that the punishment must be punitive.Example: Girl comes home and drops coat on the floor. You can punish the girl with a scolding, reducing allowance, whatever. But maybe she just drops it on the floor in her room instead of by the door and avoids getting caught as much. Have the girl put the coat on, go back outside, come back in, remove the coat, and hang it up. This may be punishing (imagine the eye-rolling) but it is also corrective in the sense that it instills the proper behavior for the next time.
Well, that's because you're talking about punishments of unequal severity. Mind Detective is saying that a punishment of extreme severity (public caning) would not be a deterrent to the activity, merely instead making the offender find better ways of not getting caught doing it. I disagree, and I don't think there's an effective way to invoke a corrective punishment here. I mean, what are we going to do, assign an individual police officer to take the kid to a party and force him to NOT drink all weekend?Im not sure what you are arguing exactly but for example, had the punishment been community service instead of loss of license I am certain they would have thrown caution to the wind and drank. The loss of their license, that symbol of freedom and independence, had specific importance to them. I don't think they would have wanted to be beaten, obviously but not all punishments would get the same results.
#34
Shakey
Shakey
What seems worse to me is the drinking age is 21. Which means that someone who is out of high school, has a family, works a full time job, can vote, can go to war, can smoke, can be tried in a court of law as an adult, can still have their license away for drinking a beer. To me, that sounds like an excessive punishment. If the drinking age were 18, I could possibly see this as being OK. Until they decide to treat all adults as adults, this is a stupid idea.
#35
makare
But I honestly believe that a teenager would be more likely to drink if caning was the possible crime than losing his license. Driving is really important to teenagers, well most of them. I didn't get my license until I was 18 and even then I didn't really care.
makare
That was pretty much my point above about the corrective. There is no punishment that matches that particular crime so they will always be offset.Well, that's because you're talking about punishments of unequal severity. Mind Detective is saying that a punishment of extreme severity (public caning) would not be a deterrent to the activity, merely instead making the offender find better ways of not getting caught doing it. I disagree, and I don't think there's an effective way to invoke a corrective punishment here. I mean, what are we going to do, assign an individual police officer to take the kid to a party and force him to NOT drink all weekend?Im not sure what you are arguing exactly but for example, had the punishment been community service instead of loss of license I am certain they would have thrown caution to the wind and drank. The loss of their license, that symbol of freedom and independence, had specific importance to them. I don't think they would have wanted to be beaten, obviously but not all punishments would get the same results.
But I honestly believe that a teenager would be more likely to drink if caning was the possible crime than losing his license. Driving is really important to teenagers, well most of them. I didn't get my license until I was 18 and even then I didn't really care.
#36
MindDetective
You'll be happy to know that I don't think the government can engage in corrective punishment in all (perhaps most) cases. However, if we can develop effective courses that properly train responsible drinking, then I would recommend something like that being mandated by the court instead of a punitive punishment.
MindDetective
Well, by that rationale then, the most corrective punishment would be to force the kid to not drink alcohol? There are situations where corrective punishment of that nature is unfeasable, and this is one of them. Your example works because it is teaching them to do X instead of Y, but when the lesson is simply "don't do Y" and X is an infinite set of everything EXCEPT Y, it naturally follows that the punishment must be punitive.Example: Girl comes home and drops coat on the floor. You can punish the girl with a scolding, reducing allowance, whatever. But maybe she just drops it on the floor in her room instead of by the door and avoids getting caught as much. Have the girl put the coat on, go back outside, come back in, remove the coat, and hang it up. This may be punishing (imagine the eye-rolling) but it is also corrective in the sense that it instills the proper behavior for the next time.
Well, that's because you're talking about punishments of unequal severity. Mind Detective is saying that a punishment of extreme severity (public caning) would not be a deterrent to the activity, merely instead making the offender find better ways of not getting caught doing it. I disagree, and I don't think there's an effective way to invoke a corrective punishment here. I mean, what are we going to do, assign an individual police officer to take the kid to a party and force him to NOT drink all weekend?[/QUOTE]Im not sure what you are arguing exactly but for example, had the punishment been community service instead of loss of license I am certain they would have thrown caution to the wind and drank. The loss of their license, that symbol of freedom and independence, had specific importance to them. I don't think they would have wanted to be beaten, obviously but not all punishments would get the same results.
You'll be happy to know that I don't think the government can engage in corrective punishment in all (perhaps most) cases. However, if we can develop effective courses that properly train responsible drinking, then I would recommend something like that being mandated by the court instead of a punitive punishment.
#37
GasBandit
But I honestly believe that a teenager would be more likely to drink if caning was the possible crime than losing his license. Driving is really important to teenagers, well most of them. I didn't get my license until I was 18 and even then I didn't really care.[/QUOTE]
Both your punishment, and mine, are seen by Dave as being excessive, which as I am sure you know from being a law-larva, is constitutionally prohibited. And yes, driving is important to some teenagers, but I think more teenagers would fear the pain and humiliation of the public, bare-skinned lashing than treasure their driver's license. That's not to belittle how many kids like the freedom that being able to drive entails... it's just humiliation and physical pain is that much more universal.
GasBandit
That's a whole 'nuther thread right there. I agree with you that the drinking age being set at 21 is stupid. However, I think setting any arbitrary age for drinking is what has led to the problems with underage alcoholism that are so rampant in our country to begin with. If you look at nations in the world that do not limit drinking by an arbitrary age (for example, in Germany, if you are big enough to reach across the bar to pick up your drink, you're old enough to drink it), they don't have this horrendous problem with teenage and collegiate alcoholism that we do in the USA. The taboo factor is nonexistent for them, and if there's not a law to break, you aren't being a cool rebel by breaking it. The forbidden fruit factor gets a lot of kids into drinking, and drinking way more than anybody should, as a method to celebrate their rejection of authority and expression of their free will.What seems worse to me is the drinking age is 21. Which means that someone who is out of high school, has a family, works a full time job, can vote, can go to war, can smoke, can be tried in a court of law as an adult, can still have their license away for drinking a beer. To me, that sounds like an excessive punishment. If the drinking age were 18, I could possibly see this as being OK. Until they decide to treat all adults as adults, this is a stupid idea.
That was pretty much my point above about the corrective. There is no punishment that matches that particular crime so they will always be offset.Well, that's because you're talking about punishments of unequal severity. Mind Detective is saying that a punishment of extreme severity (public caning) would not be a deterrent to the activity, merely instead making the offender find better ways of not getting caught doing it. I disagree, and I don't think there's an effective way to invoke a corrective punishment here. I mean, what are we going to do, assign an individual police officer to take the kid to a party and force him to NOT drink all weekend?Im not sure what you are arguing exactly but for example, had the punishment been community service instead of loss of license I am certain they would have thrown caution to the wind and drank. The loss of their license, that symbol of freedom and independence, had specific importance to them. I don't think they would have wanted to be beaten, obviously but not all punishments would get the same results.
But I honestly believe that a teenager would be more likely to drink if caning was the possible crime than losing his license. Driving is really important to teenagers, well most of them. I didn't get my license until I was 18 and even then I didn't really care.[/QUOTE]
Both your punishment, and mine, are seen by Dave as being excessive, which as I am sure you know from being a law-larva, is constitutionally prohibited. And yes, driving is important to some teenagers, but I think more teenagers would fear the pain and humiliation of the public, bare-skinned lashing than treasure their driver's license. That's not to belittle how many kids like the freedom that being able to drive entails... it's just humiliation and physical pain is that much more universal.
#38
MindDetective
MindDetective
Gas just wants to spank the bare bottoms of young, socially active women. I'm surprised more people aren't on board with this proposal...
#39
Shakey
[/QUOTE]
I wasn't really trying to get into the whole should the drinking age be lowered argument. I just think that if we are going to keep 21 the drinking age, we should decide if this a fair punishment for everyone.
Shakey
That's a whole 'nuther thread right there. I agree with you that the drinking age being set at 21 is stupid. However, I think setting any arbitrary age for drinking is what has led to the problems with underage alcoholism that are so rampant in our country to begin with. If you look at nations in the world that do not limit drinking by an arbitrary age (for example, in Germany, if you are big enough to reach across the bar to pick up your drink, you're old enough to drink it), they don't have this horrendous problem with teenage and collegiate alcoholism that we do in the USA. The taboo factor is nonexistent for them, and if there's not a law to break, you aren't being a cool rebel by breaking it. The forbidden fruit factor gets a lot of kids into drinking, and drinking way more than anybody should, as a method to celebrate their rejection of authority and expression of their free will.What seems worse to me is the drinking age is 21. Which means that someone who is out of high school, has a family, works a full time job, can vote, can go to war, can smoke, can be tried in a court of law as an adult, can still have their license away for drinking a beer. To me, that sounds like an excessive punishment. If the drinking age were 18, I could possibly see this as being OK. Until they decide to treat all adults as adults, this is a stupid idea.
[/QUOTE]
I wasn't really trying to get into the whole should the drinking age be lowered argument. I just think that if we are going to keep 21 the drinking age, we should decide if this a fair punishment for everyone.
#40
tegid
tegid
They may be able to bear that physical punishment with more proud than humiliation, if it's for breaking a rule other kids think they should break.
Also here in Spain the legal drinking age was 16 some years ago and we didn't have such a big problem but it was a normal thing for 16 year old kids to get drunk when they went out partying. When I was 17 the drinking age was set and 18, and now less kids in the 16-18 range drink a lot but from 18 onwards we have the same problem as before (if we had a problem at all).
Still, your drinking age being 21 is awfully stupid.
Also here in Spain the legal drinking age was 16 some years ago and we didn't have such a big problem but it was a normal thing for 16 year old kids to get drunk when they went out partying. When I was 17 the drinking age was set and 18, and now less kids in the 16-18 range drink a lot but from 18 onwards we have the same problem as before (if we had a problem at all).
Still, your drinking age being 21 is awfully stupid.
#41
GasBandit
GasBandit
I have to admit, I've more than once considered that I might be ideally suited for the position of professional lash-wielder.Gas just wants to spank the bare bottoms of young, socially active women. I'm surprised more people aren't on board with this proposal...
#42
Chazwozel
But I honestly believe that a teenager would be more likely to drink if caning was the possible crime than losing his license. Driving is really important to teenagers, well most of them. I didn't get my license until I was 18 and even then I didn't really care.[/QUOTE]
Who the fuck ever slated that you need a license to physically get into a car and drive? When I was 17 I had my license suspended for like 3 months. That didn't stop me. Where there's a will there's a way. Taking away their driver's license for non driving related offenses will be as effective as fining their parents or making them do community service.
Want a real solution? Stop demonizing alcohol and lower the drinking age to 18!
Chazwozel
That was pretty much my point above about the corrective. There is no punishment that matches that particular crime so they will always be offset.Well, that's because you're talking about punishments of unequal severity. Mind Detective is saying that a punishment of extreme severity (public caning) would not be a deterrent to the activity, merely instead making the offender find better ways of not getting caught doing it. I disagree, and I don't think there's an effective way to invoke a corrective punishment here. I mean, what are we going to do, assign an individual police officer to take the kid to a party and force him to NOT drink all weekend?Im not sure what you are arguing exactly but for example, had the punishment been community service instead of loss of license I am certain they would have thrown caution to the wind and drank. The loss of their license, that symbol of freedom and independence, had specific importance to them. I don't think they would have wanted to be beaten, obviously but not all punishments would get the same results.
But I honestly believe that a teenager would be more likely to drink if caning was the possible crime than losing his license. Driving is really important to teenagers, well most of them. I didn't get my license until I was 18 and even then I didn't really care.[/QUOTE]
Who the fuck ever slated that you need a license to physically get into a car and drive? When I was 17 I had my license suspended for like 3 months. That didn't stop me. Where there's a will there's a way. Taking away their driver's license for non driving related offenses will be as effective as fining their parents or making them do community service.
Want a real solution? Stop demonizing alcohol and lower the drinking age to 18!
#43
SpecialKO
SpecialKO
I know I'm late to the discussion, but I don't really have a problem with this law (insofar as Dave has mentioned how it works). Last I heard, cops just can't walk into your house without a warrant and take your kids' licenses away while you're eating dinner.
Presumably, they would need some kind of cause (like, say, a noise complaint about a party), and if that's the case, well, the cops can already arrest whatever drunk kids they like, give 'em community service, charge fines, whatever.
Unless this law is coming with provisions allowing cops to just walk into your property at any time for a random kiddy alcohol check, or to arrest teenagers at communion, I really don't see what the problem is.
Presumably, they would need some kind of cause (like, say, a noise complaint about a party), and if that's the case, well, the cops can already arrest whatever drunk kids they like, give 'em community service, charge fines, whatever.
Unless this law is coming with provisions allowing cops to just walk into your property at any time for a random kiddy alcohol check, or to arrest teenagers at communion, I really don't see what the problem is.
#44
phil
phil
Personally I think we go about the drinking age all wrong. I mean, we assume that you can't handle consuming a single drop, and then magically at 21 you can just go balls to the wall?
I think drinking should be introduced gradually to people's lives, in a way that encourages responsibility. What if instead of everything at 21, what if a person could be served two beers at a bar or restaurant? Then at 18 they can get up to 3 while out, but also can purchase a 6 pack for consumption at home? Maybe each year introduce something new until 21 when you can buy whatever you want?
I think with something like that you might make drinking less of a taboo and more of something that can be enjoyed when done responsibly.
I think drinking should be introduced gradually to people's lives, in a way that encourages responsibility. What if instead of everything at 21, what if a person could be served two beers at a bar or restaurant? Then at 18 they can get up to 3 while out, but also can purchase a 6 pack for consumption at home? Maybe each year introduce something new until 21 when you can buy whatever you want?
I think with something like that you might make drinking less of a taboo and more of something that can be enjoyed when done responsibly.
#45
SpecialKO
SpecialKO
This, I definitely agree with.Personally I think we go about the drinking age all wrong. I mean, we assume that you can't handle consuming a single drop, and then magically at 21 you can just go balls to the wall?
#46
WolfOfOdin
WolfOfOdin
Hmm....
Shouldn't we look at the root cause of why the kids are drinking as opposed to merely treating the symptoms of it? I remember liquor being demonized viciously all throughout high school, for one. That kind of attitude merely makes it an object of rebellion.
But that's just an aside.
I have to ask, Dave, with this law is there an allowance for discretion by the judge or prosecuting attorney? I know in NJ the first time you're arrested for possession you're given the option of an unconditional probation, provided your record is clear and you haven't fucked up too bad before. If the kid wasn't driving, I can see mandating classes and imposing harsh restrictions on the license at first, with the grade of severity stepping up if say, classes weren't attended or the kid was caught again.
This law can serve a purpose, but it should be implemented with some situational awareness.
Shouldn't we look at the root cause of why the kids are drinking as opposed to merely treating the symptoms of it? I remember liquor being demonized viciously all throughout high school, for one. That kind of attitude merely makes it an object of rebellion.
But that's just an aside.
I have to ask, Dave, with this law is there an allowance for discretion by the judge or prosecuting attorney? I know in NJ the first time you're arrested for possession you're given the option of an unconditional probation, provided your record is clear and you haven't fucked up too bad before. If the kid wasn't driving, I can see mandating classes and imposing harsh restrictions on the license at first, with the grade of severity stepping up if say, classes weren't attended or the kid was caught again.
This law can serve a purpose, but it should be implemented with some situational awareness.
#47
makare
But I honestly believe that a teenager would be more likely to drink if caning was the possible crime than losing his license. Driving is really important to teenagers, well most of them. I didn't get my license until I was 18 and even then I didn't really care.[/QUOTE]
Who the fuck ever slated that you need a license to physically get into a car and drive? When I was 17 I had my license suspended for like 3 months. That didn't stop me. Where there's a will there's a way. Taking away their driver's license for non driving related offenses will be as effective as fining their parents or making them do community service.
Want a real solution? Stop demonizing alcohol and lower the drinking age to 18![/QUOTE]
Most kids are not going to compound one infraction with another. Just because you did doesn't make it the norm.
makare
That was pretty much my point above about the corrective. There is no punishment that matches that particular crime so they will always be offset.Well, that's because you're talking about punishments of unequal severity. Mind Detective is saying that a punishment of extreme severity (public caning) would not be a deterrent to the activity, merely instead making the offender find better ways of not getting caught doing it. I disagree, and I don't think there's an effective way to invoke a corrective punishment here. I mean, what are we going to do, assign an individual police officer to take the kid to a party and force him to NOT drink all weekend?Im not sure what you are arguing exactly but for example, had the punishment been community service instead of loss of license I am certain they would have thrown caution to the wind and drank. The loss of their license, that symbol of freedom and independence, had specific importance to them. I don't think they would have wanted to be beaten, obviously but not all punishments would get the same results.
But I honestly believe that a teenager would be more likely to drink if caning was the possible crime than losing his license. Driving is really important to teenagers, well most of them. I didn't get my license until I was 18 and even then I didn't really care.[/QUOTE]
Who the fuck ever slated that you need a license to physically get into a car and drive? When I was 17 I had my license suspended for like 3 months. That didn't stop me. Where there's a will there's a way. Taking away their driver's license for non driving related offenses will be as effective as fining their parents or making them do community service.
Want a real solution? Stop demonizing alcohol and lower the drinking age to 18![/QUOTE]
Most kids are not going to compound one infraction with another. Just because you did doesn't make it the norm.
#48
Dave
Dave
The problem is they take your license for a non-driving offense.
So what would you guys say if they decided that this would be an excellent deterrent for say possession of a controlled substance? You are walking down the street and a cop stops you for whatever reason and he finds you have 1/2 oz of weed. According to this they can take away your driver's license. How in the world does that make sense?
---------- Post added at 04:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:19 PM ----------
So what would you guys say if they decided that this would be an excellent deterrent for say possession of a controlled substance? You are walking down the street and a cop stops you for whatever reason and he finds you have 1/2 oz of weed. According to this they can take away your driver's license. How in the world does that make sense?
---------- Post added at 04:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:19 PM ----------
Unknown. I can't find anything having to do with the wording as it's making it's way through the unicameral right now. I don't even know the bill's title.I have to ask, Dave, with this law is there an allowance for discretion by the judge or prosecuting attorney?
#49
makare
makare
I dont have a problem with it for drinking or drugs. If you choose to break the law, taking away the permit the government gives you to drive makes sense to me.
#50
Dave
Dave
Yet again the things you say make no logical sense to me.I dont have a problem with it for drinking or drugs. If you choose to break the law, taking away the permit the government gives you to drive makes sense to me.
#51
makare
We just disagree. That's ok. No need to be obnoxious about it.
makare
Yet again the things you say make no logical sense to me.[/QUOTE]I dont have a problem with it for drinking or drugs. If you choose to break the law, taking away the permit the government gives you to drive makes sense to me.
We just disagree. That's ok. No need to be obnoxious about it.
#52
Chibibar
Chibibar
Cause driving without a license is illegal if you are CAUGHT. Multiple offense = jail time.Who the fuck ever slated that you need a license to physically get into a car and drive? When I was 17 I had my license suspended for like 3 months. That didn't stop me. Where there's a will there's a way. Taking away their driver's license for non driving related offenses will be as effective as fining their parents or making them do community service.
Want a real solution? Stop demonizing alcohol and lower the drinking age to 18!
#53
Dave
We just disagree. That's ok. No need to be obnoxious about it.[/QUOTE]
That wasn't obnoxious in the least. What I *WANTED* to put was obnoxious!
That was just me shaking me head verbally at how we both profess logic but neither EVER sees the side of the other even remotely.
Dave
Yet again the things you say make no logical sense to me.[/QUOTE]I dont have a problem with it for drinking or drugs. If you choose to break the law, taking away the permit the government gives you to drive makes sense to me.
We just disagree. That's ok. No need to be obnoxious about it.[/QUOTE]
That wasn't obnoxious in the least. What I *WANTED* to put was obnoxious!
That was just me shaking me head verbally at how we both profess logic but neither EVER sees the side of the other even remotely.
#54
makare
We just disagree. That's ok. No need to be obnoxious about it.[/QUOTE]
That wasn't obnoxious in the least. What I *WANTED* to put was obnoxious!
That was just me shaking me head verbally at how we both profess logic but neither EVER sees the side of the other even remotely.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps, after all this time, I can read your mind... THROUGH the interwebs.
makare
Yet again the things you say make no logical sense to me.[/QUOTE]I dont have a problem with it for drinking or drugs. If you choose to break the law, taking away the permit the government gives you to drive makes sense to me.
We just disagree. That's ok. No need to be obnoxious about it.[/QUOTE]
That wasn't obnoxious in the least. What I *WANTED* to put was obnoxious!
That was just me shaking me head verbally at how we both profess logic but neither EVER sees the side of the other even remotely.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps, after all this time, I can read your mind... THROUGH the interwebs.
#55
phil
phil
I think the bill itself doesn't make much sense, but then again I don't know what exactly you can do to a minor as punishment. Can you fine them? Not the parents but them? Can you force them into community service?
#56
Frankie Williamson
Frankie Williamson
How? How could that possibly make sense to you?I dont have a problem with it for drinking or drugs. If you choose to break the law, taking away the permit the government gives you to drive makes sense to me.
#57
Chibibar
Chibibar
most punishment fits the crime. most crime. Now some crime you have to find alternative punishment. Lying for example, my father use spanking. Bad grades = no entertainment and study more.
Now driving you need a license to drive. you CAN drive without one, but that is illegal if you get caught (usually by speeding, breaking traffic laws, your car has broken lights etc etc) Drinking WHILE driving and get caught, you can lose your license. This make sense. Since drinking and driving is illegal, you broke the law, you lose license (related)
Now drinking in your home, being under age, with parent consent and get caught (neighbor reports you whatever) you lose license doesn't make sense. What if you don't have a license? my wife is 29 years old and she doesn't have a driving license. The punishment doesn't fit the crime at all.
Now if you are drinking in your home, being under age with parent consent and get caught, you could go to jail at least that makes some sense (if it is illegal) or punishment via deterrent (community service or something like that makes much more sense since everyone can be punish on the same level. Not everyone have a license at age 16.
Now driving you need a license to drive. you CAN drive without one, but that is illegal if you get caught (usually by speeding, breaking traffic laws, your car has broken lights etc etc) Drinking WHILE driving and get caught, you can lose your license. This make sense. Since drinking and driving is illegal, you broke the law, you lose license (related)
Now drinking in your home, being under age, with parent consent and get caught (neighbor reports you whatever) you lose license doesn't make sense. What if you don't have a license? my wife is 29 years old and she doesn't have a driving license. The punishment doesn't fit the crime at all.
Now if you are drinking in your home, being under age with parent consent and get caught, you could go to jail at least that makes some sense (if it is illegal) or punishment via deterrent (community service or something like that makes much more sense since everyone can be punish on the same level. Not everyone have a license at age 16.
#58
makare
makare
When a kid acts up you start by taking away privileges. A license to drive is a privilege, makes sense to take it away. Makes more sense to me than jail time or community service.
#59
GasBandit
GasBandit
FTFY.When a kid acts up you start by beating it raw.
#60
makare
I... made that SOOO dirty in my head.
Anyway, please tell me you dont have little redhead kids.
makare
FTFY.[/QUOTE]When a kid acts up you start by beating it raw.
I... made that SOOO dirty in my head.
Anyway, please tell me you dont have little redhead kids.
#61
GasBandit
I... made that SOOO dirty in my head.
Anyway, please tell me you dont have little redhead kids.[/QUOTE]
Heh, not of which I am aware.
GasBandit
FTFY.[/QUOTE]When a kid acts up you start by beating it raw.
I... made that SOOO dirty in my head.
Anyway, please tell me you dont have little redhead kids.[/QUOTE]
Heh, not of which I am aware.
#62
Chazwozel
Chazwozel
**Move along, nothing to see here**
#63
Espy
Espy
Lets watch the personal attacks folks.
#64
Chazwozel
Well I was just referencing back her own statements how she didn't drink/ drive at that age.
edit
Alright, alright....I'm sorry.
Chazwozel
Lets watch the personal attacks folks.
Well I was just referencing back her own statements how she didn't drink/ drive at that age.
I just want to know how she knows so much about teenagers from an obviously single sided viewpoint."Driving is really important to teenagers, well most of them. I didn't get my license until I was 18 and even then I didn't really care."
edit
Alright, alright....I'm sorry.
#65
Hailey Knight
Hailey Knight
Hmm... I'd already graduated college at 21.
Anyway, punish underage sex with lobotomies!
Anyway, punish underage sex with lobotomies!
#66
Philosopher B.
Philosopher B.
Caning is for pussies. I say we brass-knuckle that shit.
#67
Kitty Sinatra
Punishments really don't make complete sense, Dave.
Kitty Sinatra
They also take your vote away for a non-voting offense. Indeed, since selling your vote is only a misdemeanor, you don't even lose your vote for a voting offense.The problem is they take your license for a non-driving offense.
Punishments really don't make complete sense, Dave.
#68
makare
Well I was just referencing back her own statements how she didn't drink/ drive at that age.
edit
Alright, alright....I'm sorry.[/QUOTE]
I am capable of knowing that not everyone thinks or acts like I do but I still understand them.
makare
Lets watch the personal attacks folks.
Well I was just referencing back her own statements how she didn't drink/ drive at that age.
I just want to know how she knows so much about teenagers from an obviously single sided viewpoint."Driving is really important to teenagers, well most of them. I didn't get my license until I was 18 and even then I didn't really care."
edit
Alright, alright....I'm sorry.[/QUOTE]
I am capable of knowing that not everyone thinks or acts like I do but I still understand them.
#69
Chazwozel
Well I was just referencing back her own statements how she didn't drink/ drive at that age.
edit
Alright, alright....I'm sorry.[/QUOTE]
I am capable of knowing that not everyone thinks or acts like I do but I still understand them.[/QUOTE]
That's a pretty arrogant statement. So you think you know what's behind everyone's motive for doing what they do? For instance, the reason I drove on a suspended license as a kid. You're saying you know why I did it?
Chazwozel
Lets watch the personal attacks folks.
Well I was just referencing back her own statements how she didn't drink/ drive at that age.
I just want to know how she knows so much about teenagers from an obviously single sided viewpoint."Driving is really important to teenagers, well most of them. I didn't get my license until I was 18 and even then I didn't really care."
edit
Alright, alright....I'm sorry.[/QUOTE]
I am capable of knowing that not everyone thinks or acts like I do but I still understand them.[/QUOTE]
That's a pretty arrogant statement. So you think you know what's behind everyone's motive for doing what they do? For instance, the reason I drove on a suspended license as a kid. You're saying you know why I did it?
#70
makare
makare
No, Im pretty sure that at all points throughout this conversation I have been talking about my friends and people close to me who have different behavior but I still understand.
You just want me to guess why you did what you did so you can pull some kind of "oh yeah fuck you" thing. I'm not playing that, I have only been speaking from my own experience.
You just want me to guess why you did what you did so you can pull some kind of "oh yeah fuck you" thing. I'm not playing that, I have only been speaking from my own experience.
#71
Chazwozel
Chazwozel
There you go with your assumptions again...No, Im pretty sure that at all points throughout this conversation I have been talking about my friends and people close to me who have different behavior but I still understand.
You just want me to guess why you did what you did so you can pull some kind of "oh yeah fuck you" thing. I'm not playing that, I have only been speaking from my own experience.
#72
makare
makare
Im not the one who has to delete whole posts for being obnoxious. I think assuming you are trying to be a jerk is a pretty safe assumption.
#73
GasBandit
GasBandit
The answer: Because nobody beat him enough with a cane when was little!
#75
Chazwozel
I called you a prude. It's not that obnoxious.
Chazwozel
Im not the one who has to delete whole posts for being obnoxious. I think assuming you are trying to be a jerk is a pretty safe assumption.
I called you a prude. It's not that obnoxious.
#76
makare
makare
How has anything I have said in this thread been prudish? Honestly.
#77
GasBandit
GasBandit
That's clearly a beer bottle he's putting between his legs so he can clap with both hands. You just have wang on the brain.
#78
Dave
Dave
The only thing dumber than this law is what happened to this thread.
#79
makare
makare
I blame you Dave.
#80
Chazwozel
You gotta admit, the look on his face makes him look like he's a little too into the whole paddling thing.
Chazwozel
That's clearly a beer bottle he's putting between his legs so he can clap with both hands. You just have wang on the brain.[/QUOTE]
You gotta admit, the look on his face makes him look like he's a little too into the whole paddling thing.
#81
GasBandit
You gotta admit, the look on his face makes him look like he's a little too into the whole paddling thing.[/QUOTE]
They all do. They're frat boys. They're too into everything they do. HELLZ YEAH BRAH IT'S PLEDGE WEEK
GasBandit
That's clearly a beer bottle he's putting between his legs so he can clap with both hands. You just have wang on the brain.[/QUOTE]
You gotta admit, the look on his face makes him look like he's a little too into the whole paddling thing.[/QUOTE]
They all do. They're frat boys. They're too into everything they do. HELLZ YEAH BRAH IT'S PLEDGE WEEK
#82
Chazwozel
You gotta admit, the look on his face makes him look like he's a little too into the whole paddling thing.[/QUOTE]
They all do. They're frat boys. They're too into everything they do. HELLZ YEAH BRAH IT'S PLEDGE WEEK[/QUOTE]
Oh come now. They're not all that bad. I didn't pledge but I did rush. Man, I can't believe how much good free food I got away with that week.
Chazwozel
That's clearly a beer bottle he's putting between his legs so he can clap with both hands. You just have wang on the brain.[/QUOTE]
You gotta admit, the look on his face makes him look like he's a little too into the whole paddling thing.[/QUOTE]
They all do. They're frat boys. They're too into everything they do. HELLZ YEAH BRAH IT'S PLEDGE WEEK[/QUOTE]
Oh come now. They're not all that bad. I didn't pledge but I did rush. Man, I can't believe how much good free food I got away with that week.
#83
sixpackshaker
sixpackshaker
Not to mention free beer (the best kind possible) and available women.... good times.
#84
Dave
Dave
More on this law:
If you are underage and at a party where people are caught in possession you will lose your license. EVEN IF YOU ARE NOT DRINKING!
The suspension is for a month up to a year.
If you are underage and at a party where people are caught in possession you will lose your license. EVEN IF YOU ARE NOT DRINKING!
The suspension is for a month up to a year.
#85
Frankie Williamson
Frankie Williamson
I can't see that getting enforced by anyone. I wouldn't. That's ridiculous.
HEY KIDS! ARE YOU FRIENDS DRINKING? ARE YOU UNDERAGE! IT'S TIME TO TEACH YOU THAT THERE'S NO NEED FOR A DD BECAUSE HE'LL LOSE HIS LICENSE TOO!!
Unfuckingbelievable.
HEY KIDS! ARE YOU FRIENDS DRINKING? ARE YOU UNDERAGE! IT'S TIME TO TEACH YOU THAT THERE'S NO NEED FOR A DD BECAUSE HE'LL LOSE HIS LICENSE TOO!!
Unfuckingbelievable.
#86
makare
makare
Like I said I think we have that law here already and it is enforced.
#87
Dave
Dave
And like I said it's dumb.
#88
makare
makare
ah well.
#89
SpecialKO
SpecialKO
Okay, that's just plain ridiculous.
If you are underage and at a party where people are caught in possession you will lose your license. EVEN IF YOU ARE NOT DRINKING!
The suspension is for a month up to a year.
#90
Krisken
Yeah, I'm ok with removing the privileges for stuff they did do, but not for something they didn't do.
Krisken
Okay, that's just plain ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
If you are underage and at a party where people are caught in possession you will lose your license. EVEN IF YOU ARE NOT DRINKING!
The suspension is for a month up to a year.
Yeah, I'm ok with removing the privileges for stuff they did do, but not for something they didn't do.
#91
wikked
And you have the right to your opinion dave.
the rest of us have the same right, even though chaz thinks we shouldn't.
I am ok with whatever punishment elected officials choose to instate for things that are illegal. These people don't just walk into a gavernment building and make laws, they were chosen by the citizens. If the people don't like it, they can elect somebody else the next time they get the chance.
My opinion on underage drinking is based personal experience. I'm currently watching my brother throw his life away for alchohol. He started drinking at the time chaz says everyone does it (btw, I didn't do any drinking until 21. because that is the legal drinking age.). He is now 27, got a less then honorable discharge from the air force after less than 2 years. Wrecked numerous cars, including rear-ending his own parked jeep with his wife's car last week. Cheated on his wife repeatedly and generally made life at home hell for his 2 small girls. But hey, at least he got to drink when he was a teenager!
wikked
And like I said it's dumb.
And you have the right to your opinion dave.
the rest of us have the same right, even though chaz thinks we shouldn't.
I am ok with whatever punishment elected officials choose to instate for things that are illegal. These people don't just walk into a gavernment building and make laws, they were chosen by the citizens. If the people don't like it, they can elect somebody else the next time they get the chance.
My opinion on underage drinking is based personal experience. I'm currently watching my brother throw his life away for alchohol. He started drinking at the time chaz says everyone does it (btw, I didn't do any drinking until 21. because that is the legal drinking age.). He is now 27, got a less then honorable discharge from the air force after less than 2 years. Wrecked numerous cars, including rear-ending his own parked jeep with his wife's car last week. Cheated on his wife repeatedly and generally made life at home hell for his 2 small girls. But hey, at least he got to drink when he was a teenager!
#92
Frankie Williamson
And you have the right to your opinion dave.
the rest of us have the same right, even though chaz thinks we shouldn't.
I am ok with whatever punishment elected officials choose to instate for things that are illegal. These people don't just walk into a gavernment building and make laws, they were chosen by the citizens. If the people don't like it, they can elect somebody else the next time they get the chance.
My opinion on underage drinking is based personal experience. I'm currently watching my brother throw his life away for alchohol. He started drinking at the time chaz says everyone does it (btw, I didn't do any drinking until 21. because that is the legal drinking age.). He is now 27, got a less then honorable discharge from the air force after less than 2 years. Wrecked numerous cars, including rear-ending his own parked jeep with his wife's car last week. Cheated on his wife repeatedly and generally made life at home hell for his 2 small girls. But hey, at least he got to drink when he was a teenager![/QUOTE]
The only answer is he should have had his license taken away when he was 20.
Frankie Williamson
And like I said it's dumb.
And you have the right to your opinion dave.
the rest of us have the same right, even though chaz thinks we shouldn't.
I am ok with whatever punishment elected officials choose to instate for things that are illegal. These people don't just walk into a gavernment building and make laws, they were chosen by the citizens. If the people don't like it, they can elect somebody else the next time they get the chance.
My opinion on underage drinking is based personal experience. I'm currently watching my brother throw his life away for alchohol. He started drinking at the time chaz says everyone does it (btw, I didn't do any drinking until 21. because that is the legal drinking age.). He is now 27, got a less then honorable discharge from the air force after less than 2 years. Wrecked numerous cars, including rear-ending his own parked jeep with his wife's car last week. Cheated on his wife repeatedly and generally made life at home hell for his 2 small girls. But hey, at least he got to drink when he was a teenager![/QUOTE]
The only answer is he should have had his license taken away when he was 20.
#93
Covar
Covar
Obviously Dave the appropriate punishment would be to lock the EVE online thread.The only thing dumber than this law is what happened to this thread.
#94
@Li3n
@Li3n
Or be realistic even and make it 16.... and don't let them drive until they're 18...Want a real solution? Stop demonizing alcohol and lower the drinking age to 18!
#95
Chazwozel
And you have the right to your opinion dave.
the rest of us have the same right, even though chaz thinks we shouldn't.
I am ok with whatever punishment elected officials choose to instate for things that are illegal. These people don't just walk into a gavernment building and make laws, they were chosen by the citizens. If the people don't like it, they can elect somebody else the next time they get the chance.
My opinion on underage drinking is based personal experience. I'm currently watching my brother throw his life away for alchohol. He started drinking at the time chaz says everyone does it (btw, I didn't do any drinking until 21. because that is the legal drinking age.). He is now 27, got a less then honorable discharge from the air force after less than 2 years. Wrecked numerous cars, including rear-ending his own parked jeep with his wife's car last week. Cheated on his wife repeatedly and generally made life at home hell for his 2 small girls. But hey, at least he got to drink when he was a teenager![/QUOTE]
My brother and his wife died to a drunk driver, and I still think people are smart enough to make up their own damn minds when it comes to drugs and alcohol. It's not my fault your brother's an idiot as much as that mine died to one.
Chazwozel
And like I said it's dumb.
And you have the right to your opinion dave.
the rest of us have the same right, even though chaz thinks we shouldn't.
I am ok with whatever punishment elected officials choose to instate for things that are illegal. These people don't just walk into a gavernment building and make laws, they were chosen by the citizens. If the people don't like it, they can elect somebody else the next time they get the chance.
My opinion on underage drinking is based personal experience. I'm currently watching my brother throw his life away for alchohol. He started drinking at the time chaz says everyone does it (btw, I didn't do any drinking until 21. because that is the legal drinking age.). He is now 27, got a less then honorable discharge from the air force after less than 2 years. Wrecked numerous cars, including rear-ending his own parked jeep with his wife's car last week. Cheated on his wife repeatedly and generally made life at home hell for his 2 small girls. But hey, at least he got to drink when he was a teenager![/QUOTE]
My brother and his wife died to a drunk driver, and I still think people are smart enough to make up their own damn minds when it comes to drugs and alcohol. It's not my fault your brother's an idiot as much as that mine died to one.
#96
Dave
Dave
Drunk drivers are almost always of the legal age to drink. Stupidity knows no age limit.
#97
Chazwozel
There are people that just can't handle alcohol, no matter what age they are. Sadly, the way the government works is to punish those that can control themselves along with those that can't. That said, this thread has made me thirsty for some Sam Smith's Oatmeal Stout.
Chazwozel
Drunk drivers are almost always of the legal age to drink. Stupidity knows no age limit.
There are people that just can't handle alcohol, no matter what age they are. Sadly, the way the government works is to punish those that can control themselves along with those that can't. That said, this thread has made me thirsty for some Sam Smith's Oatmeal Stout.
#98
makare
makare
But if they can control themselves why are the drinking underage?
#99
Dave
Dave
What does being underage have to do with being able to handle alcohol? What we are saying is that age has no bearing on the ability or inability to handle oneself. The only reason they are drinking underage is because the drinking age is seriously fucked up in this country.But if they can control themselves why are the drinking underage?
#100
makare
Maybe it is, but it is still the law. If you want to change the law change the law. I don't see someone breaking the law as being able to handle himself responsibly.
makare
What does being underage have to do with being able to handle alcohol? What we are saying is that age has no bearing on the ability or inability to handle oneself. The only reason they are drinking underage is because the drinking age is seriously fucked up in this country.[/QUOTE]But if they can control themselves why are the drinking underage?
Maybe it is, but it is still the law. If you want to change the law change the law. I don't see someone breaking the law as being able to handle himself responsibly.
#101
Dave
Dave
The problem is you can't change the law because all politicians are pussies and do shit like raise the drinking age and lower the limit so that nobody can drink ever and be legal behind the wheel. Yes, driving drunk is bad. But there's a limit to driving impaired that .08 just isn't at. People driving tired or on cell phones or texting or eating or doing makeup are much, MUCH worse than people blowing a .08. But it will never change because no politician will ever say they want the legal age lowered or the limit raised because idiot feel good groups and lobbyists ensure that it's political suicide.
---------- Post added at 01:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:31 PM ----------
And I wonder how fast you drive.
---------- Post added at 01:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:31 PM ----------
And I wonder how fast you drive.
#102
makare
makare
I always drive the speed limit. Or you know under when it is icy or rainy.
#103
Dave
Dave
I don't believe you.
#104
makare
makare
Why would I lie about that Dave.. wtf.I don't believe you.
#105
Dave
You've NEVER gone faster than the posted limit? Ever? I find that statement very, very difficult to believe. The posted limits in a lot of areas are insanely slow for the sake of "public safety". You've never gotten a speeding ticket. You've never jaywalked. You've never broken the law in any way, shape or form.
I love ya, makare, but I just don't buy it.
Dave
Why would I lie about that Dave.. wtf.[/QUOTE]I don't believe you.
You've NEVER gone faster than the posted limit? Ever? I find that statement very, very difficult to believe. The posted limits in a lot of areas are insanely slow for the sake of "public safety". You've never gotten a speeding ticket. You've never jaywalked. You've never broken the law in any way, shape or form.
I love ya, makare, but I just don't buy it.
#106
makare
You've NEVER gone faster than the posted limit? Ever? I find that statement very, very difficult to believe. The posted limits in a lot of areas are insanely slow for the sake of "public safety". You've never gotten a speeding ticket. You've never jaywalked. You've never broken the law in any way, shape or form.
I love ya, makare, but I just don't buy it.[/QUOTE]
I did get a speeding ticket once but it was because they had changed the speed limit in the zone because they had built a new building nearby and I had driven the road so many times that I went by what I knew and not what was posted I guess. So I ended up going 45 in a 35. But other than I do drive the speed limit or slightly under on the interstate.
You can go screw yourself, I don't care if you believe me or not.
makare
Why would I lie about that Dave.. wtf.[/QUOTE]I don't believe you.
You've NEVER gone faster than the posted limit? Ever? I find that statement very, very difficult to believe. The posted limits in a lot of areas are insanely slow for the sake of "public safety". You've never gotten a speeding ticket. You've never jaywalked. You've never broken the law in any way, shape or form.
I love ya, makare, but I just don't buy it.[/QUOTE]
I did get a speeding ticket once but it was because they had changed the speed limit in the zone because they had built a new building nearby and I had driven the road so many times that I went by what I knew and not what was posted I guess. So I ended up going 45 in a 35. But other than I do drive the speed limit or slightly under on the interstate.
You can go screw yourself, I don't care if you believe me or not.
#107
Dave
Dave
Any speeding ticket you've ever had - regardless of ignorance of the law - invalidates your claim. Ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law.
#108
makare
makare
My claim is that people who break the law can't handle themselves. Obviously I couldnt handle myself in that situation. So I think it proves my point just fine.
#109
Dave
Dave
Were you driving recklessly? Were you out of control? I'll bet not. In fact, I'll bet you were one of the safest drivers on that road that day. But you know what? The fact that you broke the law and the fact that you were in perfect control proves MY POINT that laws that are put in place without regard for logic or critical thinking cause more harm than good. Sure, the city like it because they are going to rake in the cash from people going too fast in an area where that low speed makes no sense and does not save lives. But that doesn't mean that it's good for the citizens who get screwed by it or those who end up paying for these underhanded metropolitan legally sanctioned extortion plots.My claim is that people who break the law can't handle themselves. Obviously I couldnt handle myself in that situation. So I think it proves my point just fine.
#110
makare
makare
Besides the fact that they moved the sign without me knowing I dont see what the big deal is. Sure going slower in some areas is annoying but it isn't that big of a deal. I don't see it as some great offensive infringement on my rights. I am perfectly ok driving a speed limit, even the 25 mile an hour everywhere in town limit where I live now. I dont like it but it isnt something to get upset over.
And because I am now realizing that because of my opinions people seem to think that I think I am somehow perfect or some shit, well Im not. I got busted for drinking in my undergrad dorm the first year I was in college. I actually got busted WITH a drink I hadn't actually drank any of but instead of saying see EVERYONE does it, I look at that as one of the greater failings in my life because there was no reason for it. I hold everyone to the same standard I hold myself to and I fail myself often.
And because I am now realizing that because of my opinions people seem to think that I think I am somehow perfect or some shit, well Im not. I got busted for drinking in my undergrad dorm the first year I was in college. I actually got busted WITH a drink I hadn't actually drank any of but instead of saying see EVERYONE does it, I look at that as one of the greater failings in my life because there was no reason for it. I hold everyone to the same standard I hold myself to and I fail myself often.
#111
Dave
Dave
But you were in control. If they'd have taken away your driver's license after that party it would have made NO SENSE.
And now I'm going to play Mass Effect.
And now I'm going to play Mass Effect.
#112
makare
I really don't say this much because I really hate it, but we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
makare
I don't see myself in control in that situation. If they would have taken away my license I would have accepted it as a punishment for losing control of myself even though it would have stranded me in my college town.But you were in control. If they'd have taken away your driver's license after that party it would have made NO SENSE.
And now I'm going to play Mass Effect.
I really don't say this much because I really hate it, but we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
#113
blotsfan
blotsfan
I'd wager that teens who drink are less likely to drive since they know that they're in trouble regardless of how drunk they are. Thats always been my logic.
#114
tegid
tegid
Because they don't think they should follow a stupid law, maybe?
You may think it's because they can't handle themselves, but I'm sure in some cases they surely COULD not drink, they just choose to because the law is pretty absurd. They are breaking it, but fuck it, they are not harming anyone.
You may think it's because they can't handle themselves, but I'm sure in some cases they surely COULD not drink, they just choose to because the law is pretty absurd. They are breaking it, but fuck it, they are not harming anyone.
#115
Chazwozel
Chazwozel
ITT: Marake1 is the biggest prude on Earth.
My grandma even goes 5 mph over the speed limit.
My grandma even goes 5 mph over the speed limit.
#116
makare
makare
I don't think you know what a prude is.
#117
Kitty Sinatra
Kitty Sinatra
mph = men per hour.My grandma even goes 5 mph
#118
Chazwozel
I'll tolerate a lot of things, but seriously, don't talk about my grandma.
---------- Post added at 05:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:55 PM ----------
Mary Sue. John Q American. Eh, no point in talking to a huge tool anyway.
Chazwozel
mph = men per hour.[/QUOTE]My grandma even goes 5 mph
I'll tolerate a lot of things, but seriously, don't talk about my grandma.
---------- Post added at 05:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:55 PM ----------
I don't think you know what a prude is.
Mary Sue. John Q American. Eh, no point in talking to a huge tool anyway.
#119
makare
I'll tolerate a lot of things, but seriously, don't talk about my grandma.
---------- Post added at 05:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:55 PM ----------
Mary Sue. John Q American. Eh, no point in talking to a huge tool anyway.[/QUOTE]
Uh huh.
Here, enjoy http://www.merriam-webster.com/
makare
mph = men per hour.[/QUOTE]My grandma even goes 5 mph
I'll tolerate a lot of things, but seriously, don't talk about my grandma.
---------- Post added at 05:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:55 PM ----------
I don't think you know what a prude is.
Mary Sue. John Q American. Eh, no point in talking to a huge tool anyway.[/QUOTE]
Uh huh.
Here, enjoy http://www.merriam-webster.com/
#120
Chazwozel
I'll tolerate a lot of things, but seriously, don't talk about my grandma.
---------- Post added at 05:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:55 PM ----------
Mary Sue. John Q American. Eh, no point in talking to a huge tool anyway.[/QUOTE]
Uh huh.
Here, enjoy http://www.merriam-webster.com/[/QUOTE]
Ok I'll bite.
: a person who is excessively or priggishly attentive to propriety. Are you fucking retarded? That's the exact way I've been using it to define your habits. Do they speak English in South Dakota, or have so many generations of inbreeding really made you that slow?
Chazwozel
mph = men per hour.[/QUOTE]My grandma even goes 5 mph
I'll tolerate a lot of things, but seriously, don't talk about my grandma.
---------- Post added at 05:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:55 PM ----------
I don't think you know what a prude is.
Mary Sue. John Q American. Eh, no point in talking to a huge tool anyway.[/QUOTE]
Uh huh.
Here, enjoy http://www.merriam-webster.com/[/QUOTE]
Ok I'll bite.
: a person who is excessively or priggishly attentive to propriety. Are you fucking retarded? That's the exact way I've been using it to define your habits. Do they speak English in South Dakota, or have so many generations of inbreeding really made you that slow?
#121
makare
makare
I fail to see how someone like myself who swears like a sailor and spends a considerable amount of time looking at porn can be priggishly attentive to propriety just because she doesn't engage in activities with no upside like speeding. But then again I know how to use words properly.
#122
Chazwozel
Chazwozel
The law says speeding's bad you guys. That must make it true!I fail to see how someone like myself who swears like a sailor and spends a considerable amount of time looking at porn can be priggishly attentive to propriety just because she doesn't engage in activities with no upside like speeding. But then again I know how to use words properly.
#123
wikked
wikked
Give it up makare. I got into one of these discussions back in the half-pixel days. It was about pot being illegal and there is no way to get your point across here. All you are going to get is personal assaults and mockery for saying laws should be followed.
We live in a different world these days. Everyone seems to think they should be allowed to do anything they want and get away with it because "Everyone else is doing it tooooooooooooo!!!!!".
minor edit for spelling
We live in a different world these days. Everyone seems to think they should be allowed to do anything they want and get away with it because "Everyone else is doing it tooooooooooooo!!!!!".
minor edit for spelling
#124
makare
I never said it was bad. It is against the law and without merit. But you can just go ahead and keep reading into things whatever you want.
The first thread I ever posted in on image was about the topic of underage drinking and even back than Chaz got all harglegargle about it. Im not sure why he takes people's different life perspectives so personally but he does. We have gone over this topic with a back hoe and purged it with fire and salt . I just wanted to talk about the law but no. So yeah, pointless doesn't even begin to cover it.
makare
The law says speeding's bad you guys. That must make it true![/QUOTE]I fail to see how someone like myself who swears like a sailor and spends a considerable amount of time looking at porn can be priggishly attentive to propriety just because she doesn't engage in activities with no upside like speeding. But then again I know how to use words properly.
I never said it was bad. It is against the law and without merit. But you can just go ahead and keep reading into things whatever you want.
It's just easier to bitch about a law and try to justify bad behavior than actually work towards changing it. The laws I have a problem with I plan to do something about besides sitting in my computer room shaking my fist and cursing the heavens.Give it up makare. I got into one of these discussions back in the half-pixel days. it was about pot being illegal and there is no way to get your point across here. All you are going to get is personal assaults and mockery for saying laws should be followed.
We live in a different world these days. Everyone seems to think they should be aloud to do anything they want and get away with it because "Everyone else is doing it tooooooooooooo!!!!!".
The first thread I ever posted in on image was about the topic of underage drinking and even back than Chaz got all harglegargle about it. Im not sure why he takes people's different life perspectives so personally but he does. We have gone over this topic with a back hoe and purged it with fire and salt . I just wanted to talk about the law but no. So yeah, pointless doesn't even begin to cover it.
#125
blotsfan
blotsfan
You guys do know that the speed limits are intentionally set too slow because they know people will break it right? So really, if you aren't speeding 5-10 mph, you're doing a poor job of driving.
#126
Chazwozel
If you drive the speed limit in Philly on 76 or in Washington DC on I95, you're going to cause more accidents than if you would doing 75-80 like everyone else.
On the topic of underage drinking. Kids are going to find ways to drink no matter how many laws you impose on them. You might as well lower the drinking age so they begin to develop a sense of responsibility from a young age, instead of going balls out when 21 hits. At 18 you can vote, get full time work, smoke, buy weapons, join the military, but God help you if you have a beer.
Chazwozel
You guys do know that the speed limits are intentionally set too slow because they know people will break it right? So really, if you aren't speeding 5-10 mph, you're doing a poor job of driving.
If you drive the speed limit in Philly on 76 or in Washington DC on I95, you're going to cause more accidents than if you would doing 75-80 like everyone else.
On the topic of underage drinking. Kids are going to find ways to drink no matter how many laws you impose on them. You might as well lower the drinking age so they begin to develop a sense of responsibility from a young age, instead of going balls out when 21 hits. At 18 you can vote, get full time work, smoke, buy weapons, join the military, but God help you if you have a beer.
#127
Kitty Sinatra
Kitty Sinatra
lol. You tolerate nothing, dude. You whine, complain and insult someone here on a near daily basis.I'll tolerate a lot of things,
#128
Chazwozel
I never said it was bad. It is against the law and without merit. But you can just go ahead and keep reading into things whatever you want.
The first thread I ever posted in on image was about the topic of underage drinking and even back than Chaz got all harglegargle about it. Im not sure why he takes people's different life perspectives so personally but he does. We have gone over this topic with a back hoe and purged it with fire and salt . I just wanted to talk about the law but no. So yeah, pointless doesn't even begin to cover it.[/QUOTE]
Because it's dipshits like you that run up ridiculous laws in the first place.
---------- Post added at 06:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:28 PM ----------
Fine go ahead, it's not like your posts ever amount to anything anyway.
Chazwozel
The law says speeding's bad you guys. That must make it true![/QUOTE]I fail to see how someone like myself who swears like a sailor and spends a considerable amount of time looking at porn can be priggishly attentive to propriety just because she doesn't engage in activities with no upside like speeding. But then again I know how to use words properly.
I never said it was bad. It is against the law and without merit. But you can just go ahead and keep reading into things whatever you want.
It's just easier to bitch about a law and try to justify bad behavior than actually work towards changing it. The laws I have a problem with I plan to do something about besides sitting in my computer room shaking my fist and cursing the heavens.Give it up makare. I got into one of these discussions back in the half-pixel days. it was about pot being illegal and there is no way to get your point across here. All you are going to get is personal assaults and mockery for saying laws should be followed.
We live in a different world these days. Everyone seems to think they should be aloud to do anything they want and get away with it because "Everyone else is doing it tooooooooooooo!!!!!".
The first thread I ever posted in on image was about the topic of underage drinking and even back than Chaz got all harglegargle about it. Im not sure why he takes people's different life perspectives so personally but he does. We have gone over this topic with a back hoe and purged it with fire and salt . I just wanted to talk about the law but no. So yeah, pointless doesn't even begin to cover it.[/QUOTE]
Because it's dipshits like you that run up ridiculous laws in the first place.
---------- Post added at 06:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:28 PM ----------
lol. You tolerate nothing, dude. You whine, complain and insult someone here on a near daily basis.[/QUOTE]I'll tolerate a lot of things,
Fine go ahead, it's not like your posts ever amount to anything anyway.
#129
makare
makare
I know you dont think I do, and I honestly don't know why, but I think the drinking age is stupid too. But I think the "right of passage" "everyone is doing it" argument for breaking the law is complete bullshit. If you condone drinking under age you are not condoning drinking you are condoning breaking the law. What kind of message does that send?
I don't know what it is like around the country but here we are allowed to drink with our parents or have wine with dinner. That teaches responsible drinking in a situation where it is legal. I don't see the benefit to encouraging or condoning it where it is illegal.
I don't know what it is like around the country but here we are allowed to drink with our parents or have wine with dinner. That teaches responsible drinking in a situation where it is legal. I don't see the benefit to encouraging or condoning it where it is illegal.
#130
Espy
Espy
Keep it civil folks. Argue your hearts out but lets take a step back from personal insults. That goes for Chaz and anyone else who is thinking of going there. I don't want to have to lock up a perfectly good thread. Or pull this mini-van over. Because I will. And you know what that means. No Dairy Queen. And I know you want Dairy Queen.
#131
Chazwozel
Chazwozel
I live in PA. It's pretty much the biggest nanny state in the US, when it comes to alcohol laws. Hell, I can't even get a beer tonight because it's Sunday.I know you dont think I do, and I honestly don't know why, but I think the drinking age is stupid too. But I think the "right of passage" "everyone is doing it" argument for breaking the law is complete bullshit. If you condone drinking under age you are not condoning drinking you are condoning breaking the law. What kind of message does that send?
I don't know what it is like around the country but here we are allowed to drink with our parents or have wine with dinner. That teaches responsible drinking in a situation where it is legal. I don't see the benefit to encouraging or condoning it where it is illegal.
#132
makare
makare
Well, that's not my fault. Stop taking it out on me. I don't like alcohol and I generally don't drink but I also don't give a shit if other people do. I would never support the drinking age at 21 law if given a choice, I think people should be allowed to do whatever the fuck they want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. However, I qualify that at the point where they start breaking the law. I have a deep love for law. Maybe an individual law is crap but then change it, until then it is the law and it should be respected.
However, even I fall short of my own ideals on that regard with some things but like I said, I never claimed to be perfect.
However, even I fall short of my own ideals on that regard with some things but like I said, I never claimed to be perfect.
#133
Kitty Sinatra
Kitty Sinatra
Do Your Mama jokes count as personal insults? I got another one I'd like to use.Argue your hearts out but lets take a step back from personal insults.
#134
Chazwozel
Nah, mama jokes are fair game.
Chazwozel
Do Your Mama jokes count as personal insults? I got another one I'd like to use.[/QUOTE]Argue your hearts out but lets take a step back from personal insults.
Nah, mama jokes are fair game.
#135
Kitty Sinatra
Huh. That's just really kinda lame.
Kitty Sinatra
True enough. But they've all still had a turn with your mama's mama.Fine go ahead, it's not like your posts ever amount to anything anyway.
Huh. That's just really kinda lame.
#136
makare
aw yeah
She's always on tooooop.
She's always on tooooop.
makare
aw yeah
She's always on tooooop.
She's always on tooooop.