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What does DC think of Superman?

#1

Tress

Tress

Obviously I first thought of @ThatNickGuy when I read this, but I would love to see what everyone else thinks too.

First off, DC has released a collection of Superman comics ostensibly designed to highlight and celebrate the character. (Amazon link)

What really caught my attention, though, was this review: "The Problem with DC's'Superman: A Celebration of 75 Years'" It's a fascinating read, but the gist of it is that the selected stories are awful. According to the reviewer, the editors have chosen a collection of stories designed to show all that is wrong with Superman rather than a true celebration. Story after story feature times when Supes gets beat, gives up, feels sad, or is otherwise defeated.

My favorite part of the review:
Equally hilarious: the next story, an eight-pager by Chip Kidd and Alex Ross called “Question of Confidence” (2003), where Superman goes crazy and Batman has to rescue him from mind control by shooting him with a Kryptonite bullet. Seriously, how f**king hilarious and sad is it that Superman dies twice and then gets shot by Batman in his own Best-Of collection? At this point, I literally feel bad for a fictional character for how hard they are s**tting on his birthday cake. Listen, DC: I’m allowed to like Batman more than Superman. You should at least try to pretend you love them both.
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(emphasis mine)

So, is DC ashamed of Superman as a character?

Do they feel that he's out of touch or lame? Should they feel that way?

Does it make sense from a business perspective to distance themselves from the traditional "boy scout" role that Superman often plays?

How do you all view the character?


#2

PatrThom

PatrThom

I think I liked the silver age character the most, he was such a Mary Sue Doc Savage do/be anything kind of character, and there was never any doubt about his motivations.
I wanted them to add a bit more of the "only one like me on Earth/lonely" angle into his character, and I think the Justice League cartoon series (of which I've actually seen very little) came the closest to what I wanted with the character (especially the first Mister Mxyzptlk episode).

That said, I think the "he's such a pretty boy he needs to be taken down a peg" attitude needs to go.

--Patrick


#3

Bowielee

Bowielee

I dunno, the critic even harps about the fact that "The man who has everything" is in there, and that's widely considered to be one of the best Superman stories ever written.


#4

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

Some of the best Superman stories are how he overcomes those hard obstacles, like being beaten to a pulp by The Elite or being overwhelmed by his life crumbling around him in Whatever Happened to the Man of the Tomorrow. I've seen the listed comics for the collection and I agree with it for the most parts, so I don't really understand that commenter's critique.

Though I will say that DC certainly does seem to have a thing against Superman these days. The rebooted Superman, for example, is a much darker, edgier character, like they're trying way too hard to make him hip and cool. Which would be fine if it didn't feel so forced. You can have a great, mature, grown-up Superman without losing the core of the character or making him "dark" like Batman. All Star Superman, Birthright, and Secret Identity showcase that perfectly.


#5

Tress

Tress

Sometimes I think it's as simple as "Hey, people like Batman! Let's make everyone else dark and gritty like Batman!" And that's a shame, because that's a terrible approach to writing comics.


#6

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

My favorite stories about Superman aren't about how strong he is or how invincible he is. My favorite stories are about how morally centered he is. Nick mentioned Superman vs The Elite, and this does a good job of showcasing that. Superman's greatest strength isn't his powers, it's his sense of right and wrong, and how he's willing to stick to what he knows is right even when the world around him is telling him he shouldn't. That, to me, is Superman.


#7

Bowielee

Bowielee

Ravenpoe said:
My favorite stories about Superman aren't about how strong he is or how invincible he is. My favorite stories are about how morally centered he is. Nick mentioned Superman vs The Elite, and this does a good job of showcasing that. Superman's greatest strength isn't his powers, it's his sense of right and wrong, and how he's willing to stick to what he knows is right even when the world around him is telling him he shouldn't. That, to me, is Superman.
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That's why "What's so funny about Truth, Justice, and the American Way?" (the comic Superman vs The Elite is based on) is one of the best Superman stories out there.

Quite frankly, Superman is a REALLY hard hero to write for and make him compelling. It takes someone really talented to walk that tightrope.


#8

Bowielee

Bowielee

Cross posting from the "what comics are you reading" thread-

As I see it, Marvel and DC have always had two completely different philosophies of comic stories.
Marvel was all about the grounded human based superheroes who had complicated lives and always questioned not only their own place in the world, but the justification of their actions in it.
DC was all about a panthenon of morally upright heroes, who remain stalwart no matter how dark the world gets.
I think a lot of this has to do when the characters were created. DC's characters were forged in a time of idealism, whereas most of the Marvel heroes were born in a time of social change and upheaval.
One is about realism, the other is about idealism. And that's just fine and dandy. I'm sick of everything having to be all grimdark to be considered "adult". DC's characters simply aren't built to exist in a Marvel-type universe, and the more they try to do that, the worse the characters get.

And, in a move pretty much garunteed to get me a ton of disagrees, I'm finally going to say that I HATE The Dark Knight Returns. I didn't used to hate it, and I still like the story, but I HATE what it did to comics in general, particularly DC and the character of Batman. Yes, I like a more serious Batman, but the extremes that this has gone to have gotten ridiculous. Some current interpretations of Batman have him leaving criminals as paraplegics, but saying he's remaining moral because he doesn't out and out kill them (screw you, All Star Batman and Robin). Batman TAS had it just perfect. He is using fear and intimidation as his weapon, but at the end of the day, he is just as, if not sometimes more, moral than Superman. He doesn't have to be a vengence fueled psychopath.

Isn't one of the reasons that Super Heroes even exist in the first place the fact that they can do what others can't? They're supposed to be paragons to look up to, not thugs who enforce vengence over justice.


#9

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

The Dark Knight Returns didn't have that effect by its lonesome. Watchmen had a hand in the shape of things to come.

Though Alan Moore regrets that result. Frank Miller takes a bath in it.

EDIT: Funny thing is, even under Watchmen's heavy cynicism, there are moments that are surprisingly touching and compassionate. I've only read The Dark Knight Returns once, but the only point I remember any kind of positive sentiment was with Superman near the end. Other stuff was more "go Batman go" or "they really nailed that character's demeanor", etc.


#10

Zappit

Zappit

Bowie's got it right. Superman is hands-down the hardest character to write in comics. The character is essentially the most powerful being in the DCU, so very, very few physical threats present him a real challenge, and the ones that do generally rate an "event" status.

That means turning to his human side, but pushing that as a weakness makes him look more pathetic and sad than vulnerable, at least in the hands of writers who just can't strike that right balance.

Superman feels right when you do a story like The Elite, (which is amazing) where he's the moral compass of the DCU, struggling to prevent the shift to a darker, meaner world. He gets to stand as a godlike yet fallible figure, a relic proving his methods have a place. Moreover, his rebuff of The Elite doesn't just get him a win over an enemy, it makes a tremendous statement that he's RIGHT.

That's the one thing the new movie really got right - Jor-El states Superman has to stand as a leader more than an icon, one that can guide rather than control.


#11

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

Bowielee said:
And, in a move pretty much garunteed to get me a ton of disagrees, I'm finally going to say that I HATE The Dark Knight Returns. I didn't used to hate it, and I still like the story, but I HATE what it did to comics in general, particularly DC and the character of Batman. Yes, I like a more serious Batman, but the extremes that this has gone to have gotten ridiculous. Some current interpretations of Batman have him leaving criminals as paraplegics, but saying he's remaining moral because he doesn't out and out kill them (screw you, All Star Batman and Robin). Batman TAS had it just perfect. He is using fear and intimidation as his weapon, but at the end of the day, he is just as, if not sometimes more, moral than Superman. He doesn't have to be a vengence fueled psychopath.

Isn't one of the reasons that Super Heroes even exist in the first place the fact that they can do what others can't? They're supposed to be paragons to look up to, not thugs who enforce vengence over justice.
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You know, as I get older, The Dark Knight Returns gets worse. When I was a kid I liked it a lot, but I recently went back and read it and... I can't see Batman in the story. All I can see are Frank Miller's uncomfortable world views.


#12

AshburnerX

AshburnerX

I think the problem is that DC is currently trying to get another smash hit like the Batman Begins trilogy, but seems to think that replicating the formula for Batman is what is going to make it happen. This is foolish. DC characters work in a shared universe BECAUSE of their differences, not in spite of them. They don't all need to be dark and gritty, especially Superman. Fuck... if they wanted a dark and gritty movie, do a Wonder Woman movie where she is completely unafraid of just butchering/brutalizing people if she needs to. It fits her character WAY more that Superman. Just give her a bit more armor so she's not completely cheesecake, okay?

Right now, I think DC needs to step back and just start ignoring the Big 3. My ideas?

Booster Gold and Blue Beetle - Buddy cop action comedy. Maybe do this after Justice League though, so you aren't introducing two characters at the same time.

Captain Marvel and The Power of Shazam - This is your PERFECT PG kid film. Change the story a bit so that maybe Billy isn't an orphan (but has absentee parents who are more concerned with their jobs or something), make it so he's a young teenager (like late middle school) who has to take care of his sister. Toss in Doctor Silvana as a local Mad Scientist up to no good and you have the recipe for a great little movie or TV show for kids. Then, if it does well you can go a bit darker in the sequel where Black Adam shows up and maybe murders his parents or something. You can even tie in Superman in the sequel if you want to do Superman/Shazam First Thunder!

The Question - You want to do a dark and gritty crime story? This is your character. Have Renee Montoya working some cases in Hub City that she just can't explain until she stumbles onto The Question at the scene of a crime. He, as Vic Sage, then mentors her as they both fight the political and spiritual troubles of the city. Possibly end it with Renee taking up the mantle with Vic's death.

Hellblazer - You know how Supernatural is great? Do that, but with John Constantine. Maybe do it as a TV series instead of a movie though. Fuck, toss in Zatanna and you'd have a hit series.

Static Shock - This could be good too. It's got that street level feel that Batman and Superman completely lack in the movies, while still having a bit of fun. If they can balance the drama with the humor, this could be a winner.

JSA: Old Guard - You know how action movies starring aging Boomers is a thing now? This is that movie, but with super heroes. You got old guys like Wildcat, Hourman, Doctor Fate, and Green Lantern Alan Scott trying to reclaim their city from the crime that overruns it, while having to bring new blood like Blue Beetle, Booster Gold and Power Girl up to speed. Don't do an origin movie for each character... just jump into it. If the cast is interesting and entertaining enough then you don't need to explain too much about where they come from. Besides, Marvel's giving Guardians of the Galaxy a go with basically no lead in, so they obviously think you can introduce a new team in it's own movie.

Seriously... they have SO MANY FUCKING THINGS they could be doing, but they are stuck trying to bring Superman down.


#13

Frank

Frank

Bowielee said:
(screw you, All Star Batman and Robin)
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Does anyone treat this as anything but comedy?


#14

Bowielee

Bowielee

Frank said:
Does anyone treat this as anything but comedy?
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See, the thing with that is, Sure Miller is a crazy douche nozzle, but DC editorial looked at it and said, "Yup, looks good to us, Frank!" What DC really needs to do is know when and when not to make editorial edicts. They currently suck at it. Even the Clone Saga, which was pretty much the biggest editorial mandated clusterfuck in Marvel history pales in comparison to what's been going on at DC .


#15

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

If the characters that Ashburner mentioned were Marvel properties, we'd have movies like he suggested, suited finely to the characters. But DC and Warner Brothers seem to just want to do the same thing and paint their characters with a broad brush. Green Lantern didn't work, so fuck the non-Batman/Superman ones.

If Marvel had done that when Ang Lee's Hulk tanked, we wouldn't have the Marvel Universe movies we have today. And look at Iron Man--he wasn't nearly as well-known as Hulk or Spider-man, but they went with it anyway with the talent to make it something people would pay attention to. DC has characters capable of winning people over this way, but does Warner Brothers have the talent to make it happen?


#16

Covar

Covar

Frank said:
Does anyone treat this as anything but comedy?
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It really is so awful I can't help but laugh at it.


#17

jwhouk

jwhouk

As an aside: Could you imagine Downey playing Batman?


#18

sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

@AshburnerX, I'd like to see some old Charlton action, a Blue Beetle and Question team up. But movie going audiences would think DC would be ripping WATCHMEN off.


#19

@Li3n

@Li3n

Bah, all the stuff about how Superman can't do everything, is sad, or gets beaten up for 90% of the story, and at the end it always ends with the same "Supes rallies and beats the villain fast by punching him".

That's his real problem, that everyone thinks it's his personality that needs fixing, instead of the fact that he was DC's Mary Sue for most of his existence and people still use him as a deus ex machina in his own damn fights. The "World of cardboard" speech in JLU might have been awesome on it's own, but it way less so when that's all he ever does.


#20

bhamv3

bhamv3

jwhouk said:
As an aside: Could you imagine Downey playing Batman?
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If he bulks up a bit... actually, yes I could. A deadpan snarker Batman.

Better than Affleck, anyway.


#21

Bowielee

Bowielee

Honestly, I've decided that I'm going to give Affleck the benefit of the doubt when it comes to playing Batman. He may not be the best actor, but he has done some really great roles.


#22

bhamv3

bhamv3

Bowielee said:
Honestly, I've decided that I'm going to give Affleck the benefit of the doubt when it comes to playing Batman. He may not be the best actor, but he has done some really great roles.
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Actually, so have I, but I'm still going to razz on him because I find it entertaining to do so.


#23

strawman

strawman

Looks like they killed superman again.

http://io9.gizmodo.com/superman-just-died-a-pointless-death-1778753409

It's like all these kids grew up in the eighties being told their favorite superhero was stupid because he was invincible, so by the nineties they decide to "improve" him by killing him, and now, like a broken record, that's all they can do - kill the current superman in some new way, then bring him back, or bring another superman into the world, or some other silly "undo button" nonsense.


#24

Celt Z

Celt Z

Funny, I was just reading that article and was wondering if anyone else was going to comment on it.

I have to agree with you, @stienman. It's become a tired comic trope, especially for Superman. I'm really disappointed with the lack of imagination some writers have with him. You have one of the most powerful characters in the world, and all you can think of is make him punch or die? *coughzacksnydercough*
Like @Ravenpoe said above, challenge his moral center. Or take him off-world. Or give him a problem that requires more than punching. I don't feel stupid for loving Superman, even if it's "cooler" to love Batman, but I wish some of the writers would feel the same way. Are they really so stunted that they can't see as more than a ball of powers to be hurdled at an obstacle until he dies? It's like they forget the "man" part of Superman, who's supposed to have thoughts and feelings and opinions. Make him CARE again, and maybe, in turn, people will care about whether or not he's alive.


#25

PatrThom

PatrThom

Celt Z said:
It's like they forget the "man" part of Superman, who's supposed to have thoughts and feelings and opinions. Make him CARE again, and maybe, in turn, people will care about whether or not he's alive.
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Over the last 10-15 years or so, it seems the trend has become to sell/focus on the spectacle rather than the drama/interplay. I don't know why.

--Patrick


#26

Celt Z

Celt Z

There needs to be a balance. Always relying on spectacle becomes monotonous after a while.


#27

PatrThom

PatrThom

Celt Z said:
There needs to be a balance. Always relying on spectacle becomes monotonous after a while.
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I wonder if we can predict which movies will be successful by monitoring which Old Spice commercials are the most successful in the months prior?
sajl5gb6ilninsfn4rlr.gif


--Patrick


#28

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

PatrThom said:
Over the last 10-15 years or so, it seems the trend has become to sell/focus on the spectacle rather than the drama/interplay. I don't know why.

--Patrick
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Pretty much all thanks to Death/Return of Superman. The pattern is ...

- Sales plateau. Not great, not tanking, just fine.
- Comic execs want more money
- Order for a spectacle is sent down from on high
- Event gets news
- People who don't normally buy comics buy the event comic
- Regular comic buyers get jaded and some of them abandon
- People who don't normally buy comics return to their usual of not buying comics
- Comics end up with less regular sales than before
- Industry diminshes
- No event for a while
- Sales plateau AND HERE WE GO AGAIN

I was looking at sales numbers earlier today. It's hard to believe that in the early 90s a comic could have over 500,000 sales in a month. That's just one title. Nowadays, the high end sales are around 120,000, and that's only the top 10. And yet the execs just don't learn.


#29

mikerc

mikerc

Zero Esc said:
I was looking at sales numbers earlier today. It's hard to believe that in the early 90s a comic could have over 500,000 sales in a month. That's just one title. Nowadays, the high end sales are around 120,000, and that's only the top 10. And yet the execs just don't learn.
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Well there is a lot more entertainment options out there now but...

I've heard a lot of wrestling fans rag on the WWE for going PG and focussing on kids, but as long as they can keep grabbing new viewers it means that 20, 30 years from now - and even longer - they'll still have an audience. Comics? Where are they getting their new readers from? They certainly don't seem to want to get kids reading - not when they can be "dark" and "edgy", or tell some convoluted "event" story that requires reading 6 or 7 different titles to understand.

Unless they remember that they need to get kids reading as well as chasing the existing market then when that market is gone - either lost interest, or grown old and died off - who are they going to sell to? The WWE will still be there, still have people coming to their shows, still selling merchandise. Comics? They might just be a historical footnote.


#30

Sara_2814

Sara_2814

mroosc1979 said:
Well there is a lot more entertainment options out there now but...

I've heard a lot of wrestling fans rag on the WWE for going PG and focussing on kids,
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Wrestling was very kid-friendly in the 80s.


#31

mikerc

mikerc

Oh yeah, wrestlings been kid-friendly for most of it's existence with the Attitude Era being the exception where it skewed older (not that there weren't kids watching even then). It's just that most of the fans I was talking about tend to consider the AE as wrestlings Golden Age when everything was perfect, conveniently forgetting that for every Steve Austin beer bash or Undertaker v Mankind Hell In A Cell you had Mae Young giving birth to a hand, or David Arquette WCW Champion, or the Fingerpoke of Doom, or ,well, Vince Russo.

And no, I didn't deliberately start this post off with a Macho Man reference, but reading it over before hitting "Post Reply" I've just spotted it & I'm happy it's there.


#32

Fun Size

Fun Size

Dammit, now I want a Slim Jim.


#33

PatrThom

PatrThom

mroosc1979 said:
I didn't deliberately start this post off with a Macho Kool-Aid Man reference
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This works, too.

--Patrick


#34

GasBandit

GasBandit

Sara_2814 said:
Wrestling was very kid-friendly in the 80s.
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I watched the hell outta some Hulk Hogan's Rock'n'Wrestling. I still remember some of the jokes!

They're at a diner for breakfast. Andre the Giant asks the waitress "I need to work on my figure. Have you got any diet plates?"

She replies "Oh sure, there's (this one) and (this one) or (this one)."

"Perfect!" Andre beams. "Bring me twelve of them!"


#35

PatrThom

PatrThom

GasBandit said:
I watched the hell outta some Hulk Hogan's Rock'n'Wrestling. I still remember some of the jokes!
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I remember it as being sorta like what I would expect if "Challenge of the Super Friends" had been turned into a sitcom. So...basically a semi-rehash of "Harlem Globetrotters."
edit: Huh, didn't realize Brad Garrett voiced Hulk Hogan.

--Patrick


#36

Bubble181

Bubble181

I thought the whole point of having 4-5-6-7 different titles of pretty much the same hero (Amazing Spiderman, Super Spiderman, Wondrous Spiderman, Spiderwoman, Spiderblob, Spider and his Friends, Spider City, Itsy Bitsy Spiderman,....does it show that I don't actually follow comics that closely? :p) was to have them cater to different audiences - some more grimdark, some more aimed towards children, some more actioney, some more geared towards long form storytelling. Except, that seems to have been lost on them, and now they allget connected together to be in one big world where everything's turned to soup.


#37

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

Bubble181 said:
I thought the whole point of having 4-5-6-7 different titles of pretty much the same hero (Amazing Spiderman, Super Spiderman, Wondrous Spiderman, Spiderwoman, Spiderblob, Spider and his Friends, Spider City, Itsy Bitsy Spiderman,....does it show that I don't actually follow comics that closely? :p) was to have them cater to different audiences - some more grimdark, some more aimed towards children, some more actioney, some more geared towards long form storytelling. Except, that seems to have been lost on them, and now they allget connected together to be in one big world where everything's turned to soup.
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So far as I know, that's rarely been the case. Sometimes, you'll have different creative teams on different titles, so they might differ in style or writing. But overall, there's not that much difference.


#38

Covar

Covar

That's was the case with the Bat titles in early 00's, post No Mans Land. Batman would be the super-hero book, Detective Comics the mystery, Gotham Knights was him working alongside numerous members of the bat-family, and Legends of the Dark Knight was to be stories set in year two. It last for a couple of years. The different Bat and Superman titles in Rebirth are going to be kind of like this.

On the other side of the coin you had the Superman books throughout the 90's basically becoming one continuous weekly series. Complete with a yearly numbering system, known as the Triangle period.

Most the time it's not as strictly defined and publicized as those. With the different books given to different creators that can provide their own takes on the character.


#39

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

They may aim to divvy up the Bat books in Rebirth, but we'll see how long that lasts.


#40

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

Covar said:
That's was the case with the Bat titles in early 00's, post No Mans Land. Batman would be the super-hero book, Detective Comics the mystery, Gotham Knights was him working alongside numerous members of the bat-family, and Legends of the Dark Knight was to be stories set in year two. It last for a couple of years. The different Bat and Superman titles in Rebirth are going to be kind of like this.

On the other side of the coin you had the Superman books throughout the 90's basically becoming one continuous weekly series. Complete with a yearly numbering system, known as the Triangle period.

Most the time it's not as strictly defined and publicized as those. With the different books given to different creators that can provide their own takes on the character.
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Maybe it's because I grew up on them, but I liked the Triangle system. Although it didn't work out so well later one, when you had Jeph Loeb & Jeph McGuinnes on one book and other writers on other books. Loeb would set something up that was legitmately interesting and it'd be quickly explained away by another team in another book. Like, Jimmy catching a glimpse of a wedding ring on Superman's finger in a photo-op. So the whole world starts wondering who Mrs. Superman is. It never really got explored in any kind of interesting way and then shuffled away when the JLA had a live conferance, saying the "ring" was actually a new communicator for the team. Ugh.

Overall, I think the Triangle system worked earlier, though, like when Dan Jurgens was one of the creative team members.


#41

Covar

Covar

The Superman books in the 90s are very underrated I think. Plenty of crazy stuff, lots of supporting cast, and a continuity driven story that hadn't been done before, or since.[DOUBLEPOST=1464821606,1464821285][/DOUBLEPOST]
Zero Esc said:
They may aim to divvy up the Bat books in Rebirth, but we'll see how long that lasts.
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Until creative shifts around probably. You've got Batman dealing with new heroes in Gotham over in Batman, working with his sidekicks in Detective, and Scott Snyder writing more isolated stories focusing on key villains over in All-star Batman. Those are just the Batman focused titles and their initial storylines so far, you will also get other Bat-family related titles.


#42

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

So the order of things is to be

Batman Rebirth #1
Batman #1
Batman #2
etc

... Why didn't they just start with Batman #1? Naming it this way, if you picked up Batman #1 in a couple weeks, you might not know you missed the beginning of the new run.


#43

Covar

Covar

Zero Esc said:
So the order of things is to be

Batman Rebirth #1
Batman #1
Batman #2
etc

... Why didn't they just start with Batman #1? Naming it this way, if you picked up Batman #1 in a couple weeks, you might not know you missed the beginning of the new run.
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You didn't miss the beginning of it though. It's a one shot story by 2 of the writers of the books.


#44

PatrThom

PatrThom

Zero Esc said:
So the order of things is to be

Batman Rebirth #1
Batman #1
Batman #2
etc

... Why didn't they just start with Batman #1? Naming it this way, if you picked up Batman #1 in a couple weeks, you might not know you missed the beginning of the new run.
Click to expand...
It's so you can keep all of the eventual rebirths in chronological order.

--Patrick


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