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What's your favorite Woody Allen movie?

#1

strawman

strawman

The rather benign question asked by Woody Allen's daughter Dylan Farrow as she openly questions Hollywood's continued support of the man who molested her when she was a child.

http://kristof.blogs.nytimes.com/20...=true&_type=blogs&_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=1&

Included spoiled. No images, just words. Contains descriptions of child abuse, sexual assault, rape.

What’s your favorite Woody Allen movie? Before you answer, you should know: when I was seven years old, Woody Allen took me by the hand and led me into a dim, closet-like attic on the second floor of our house. He told me to lay on my stomach and play with my brother’s electric train set. Then he sexually assaulted me. He talked to me while he did it, whispering that I was a good girl, that this was our secret, promising that we’d go to Paris and I’d be a star in his movies. I remember staring at that toy train, focusing on it as it traveled in its circle around the attic. To this day, I find it difficult to look at toy trains.
For as long as I could remember, my father had been doing things to me that I didn’t like. I didn’t like how often he would take me away from my mom, siblings and friends to be alone with him. I didn’t like it when he would stick his thumb in my mouth. I didn’t like it when I had to get in bed with him under the sheets when he was in his underwear. I didn’t like it when he would place his head in my naked lap and breathe in and breathe out. I would hide under beds or lock myself in the bathroom to avoid these encounters, but he always found me. These things happened so often, so routinely, so skillfully hidden from a mother that would have protected me had she known, that I thought it was normal. I thought this was how fathers doted on their daughters. But what he did to me in the attic felt different. I couldn’t keep the secret anymore.

When I asked my mother if her dad did to her what Woody Allen did to me, I honestly did not know the answer. I also didn’t know the firestorm it would trigger. I didn’t know that my father would use his sexual relationship with my sister to cover up the abuse he inflicted on me. I didn’t know that he would accuse my mother of planting the abuse in my head and call her a liar for defending me. I didn’t know that I would be made to recount my story over and over again, to doctor after doctor, pushed to see if I’d admit I was lying as part of a legal battle I couldn’t possibly understand. At one point, my mother sat me down and told me that I wouldn’t be in trouble if I was lying – that I could take it all back. I couldn’t. It was all true. But sexual abuse claims against the powerful stall more easily. There were experts willing to attack my credibility. There were doctors willing to gaslight an abused child.
After a custody hearing denied my father visitation rights, my mother declined to pursue criminal charges, despite findings of probable cause by the State of Connecticut – due to, in the words of the prosecutor, the fragility of the “child victim.” Woody Allen was never convicted of any crime. That he got away with what he did to me haunted me as I grew up. I was stricken with guilt that I had allowed him to be near other little girls. I was terrified of being touched by men. I developed an eating disorder. I began cutting myself. That torment was made worse by Hollywood. All but a precious few (my heroes) turned a blind eye. Most found it easier to accept the ambiguity, to say, “who can say what happened,” to pretend that nothing was wrong. Actors praised him at awards shows. Networks put him on TV. Critics put him in magazines. Each time I saw my abuser’s face – on a poster, on a t-shirt, on television – I could only hide my panic until I found a place to be alone and fall apart.
Last week, Woody Allen was nominated for his latest Oscar. But this time, I refuse to fall apart. For so long, Woody Allen’s acceptance silenced me. It felt like a personal rebuke, like the awards and accolades were a way to tell me to shut up and go away. But the survivors of sexual abuse who have reached out to me – to support me and to share their fears of coming forward, of being called a liar, of being told their memories aren’t their memories – have given me a reason to not be silent, if only so others know that they don’t have to be silent either.
Today, I consider myself lucky. I am happily married. I have the support of my amazing brothers and sisters. I have a mother who found within herself a well of fortitude that saved us from the chaos a predator brought into our home.
But others are still scared, vulnerable, and struggling for the courage to tell the truth. The message that Hollywood sends matters for them.
What if it had been your child, Cate Blanchett? Louis CK? Alec Baldwin? What if it had been you, Emma Stone? Or you, Scarlett Johansson? You knew me when I was a little girl, Diane Keaton. Have you forgotten me?
Woody Allen is a living testament to the way our society fails the survivors of sexual assault and abuse.
So imagine your seven-year-old daughter being led into an attic by Woody Allen. Imagine she spends a lifetime stricken with nausea at the mention of his name. Imagine a world that celebrates her tormenter.
Are you imagining that? Now, what’s your favorite Woody Allen movie?


#2

Tinwhistler

Tinwhistler

Only fair to include the counterpoint

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/01/27/the-woody-allen-allegations-not-so-fast.html

I should note that I, personally, don't have enough real information to take any sides in this argument.


#3

phil

phil

If true, that's a horrible thing for a person to go through. I feel for her and wish her the best in life. I also hope, if true, that Woody Allen faces consequences for his actions and is held accountable.

I still like Annie Hall.


#4

strawman

strawman

Only fair to include the counterpoint

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/01/27/the-woody-allen-allegations-not-so-fast.html

I should note that I, personally, don't have enough real information to take any sides in this argument.
Thanks for that. It certainly seems the further I look into it, the weirder it gets. There's no way now to prove that the allegations are true, but this being the first time the alleged victim spoke about it publicly, despite her mother bringing it up every single year, it is perhaps more interesting.

It's hard not to believe Dylan's statement, but her mother is certainly a few cards short of a full deck, and Allen's actions don't exactly speak highly for him.

Ah well, now I'm sorry I heard about it at all. I can't hope it didn't happen, because that means Dylan was victimized by her mother as a pawn against her step father. I can't hope it did happen because that would be just as bad.

Either way, the victimizer, be it farrow or Allen, is getting away with it.


#5

GasBandit

GasBandit

From Dailybeast - "If Mia’s account is true, it means that in the middle of custody and support negotiations, during which Woody needed to be on his best behavior, in a house belonging to his furious ex-girlfriend, and filled with people seething mad at him, Woody, who is a well-known claustrophobic, decided this would be the ideal time and place to take his daughter into an attic and molest her, quickly, before a house full of children and nannies noticed they were both missing. ... Mia’s allegations of molestation automatically triggered a criminal investigation by the Connecticut State Police, who brought in an investigative team from the Yale-New Haven Hospital, whose six-month long inquiry (which included medical examinations) concluded that Dylan had not been molested."

So yeah. Who the hell knows?


#6

MindDetective

MindDetective

It's hard not to believe Dylan's statement, but her mother is certainly a few cards short of a full deck, and Allen's actions don't exactly speak highly for him.
My understanding of the nature of memory leads me to conclude it is very easy to not believe someone's memory, in spite of how strongly they assert its truth. That isn't to say it is false in this case. It is just that memory really is quite malleable, especially in the capable hands of trusted adults, and so utterly believable that we do not actually hear the truth.


#7

strawman

strawman

Which is why so many abusers do get away with their crimes.


#8

MindDetective

MindDetective

Which is why so many abusers do get away with their crimes.
That's not actually a defensible claim. They may get away with their crimes but I don't think you can argue it is for that reason.


#9

Tinwhistler

Tinwhistler

Abusers are often cunning.

Memory (especially childhood memory) is often suspect.

Exes are often vengeful.

Criminal investigations are often sloppy.

There's just no way for me to armchair quarterback this one and take any sides at all. It's a mess.

About the only thing I can say with any certainty is that I've never seen a Woody Allen movie.


#10

Covar

Covar

Chinatown.


#11

Espy

Espy

From my friends who have been abused and had people go, "Oh but kids memories are suspect/bad" and so their abusers get away with it and/or continue doing it, I have learned to do this with these kind of situations:

I believe the abused.

I also believe that the abuser has the right to a fair trial and is innocent until proven guilty.

Now, that might sound like two hard concepts to hold together. They are and it is, but I feel it's necessary to not minimize that abused and to uphold the rights of the abuser.


#12

Gilgamesh

Gilgamesh

From my friends who have been abused and had people go, "Oh but kids memories are suspect/bad" and so their abusers get away with it and/or continue doing it, I have learned to do this with these kind of situations:

I believe the abused.

I also believe that the abuser has the right to a fair trial and is innocent until proven guilty.

Now, that might sound like two hard concepts to hold together. They are and it is, but I feel it's necessary to not minimize that abused and to uphold the rights of the abuser.
So you believe the abused are telling the truth but believe the abuser is innocent at the same time?


#13

Espy

Espy

Believing the abused and allowing them to be safe to tell their stories (which are immensely difficult and personal, unless one has been abused they have ZERO idea how scary and difficult it is for someone who has been abused to open up about, not to mention the fact that by retelling it they are allowing themselves to be traumatized all over again) is, from my experience with survivors of abuse, probably the most important thing people can do for them.

That doesn't mean be an idiot or not use critical thinking.

It does mean trying to avoid passing judgement on the accused, because it's not your job if someone opens up about abuse to you. Thats up to the court system. The reality is, like I said above, it's a very hard thing to do, thats why most people just jump right to "GUILTY!" or "INNOCENT!", because thats easier and it doesn't require any tension. Being able to hold the idea that the abused has been abused but the accuser is innocent until proven guilty by a court of law is very difficult, but something necessary in dealing with these situations, although I can't cover every circumstance that will cause this to vary here, obviously.

In cases like this, which are dealing with celebrity and are massively public I think it's almost impossible to do this, because lets face it, a) it has zero impact on this lady what us nerds on a message board think and b) it has zero impact on Woody Allen's guilt or innocent what us nerds on a message board think. However, if we ever have to deal personally with someone who has been abused I would encourage trying to hold that tension I wrote about. Far to many folks attack the abused right away (they were asking for it, what was she wearing LOL, kids memories are bad so they must be lying, etc) instead of allowing them some safe space to tell their story.

Does that make sense?


#14

Cajungal

Cajungal

So you believe the abused are telling the truth but believe the abuser is innocent at the same time?
I think he's just stressing the importance of not shaming the alleged abused or accusing him/her of lying. That's something you learn as an education major. Proceed as if it's true; take accusations seriously, but know that a real investigation has to take place before anything else happens. You hear a lot of cases about kids who were shut down because they must be lying or they just "didn't understand" a situation they were in.

This woman talking about having to repeat her story over and over is another reason why so many cases just go unsolved. The more a child is asked to repeat a story to all these different parties, the more they think they must be saying/doing something wrong. Things change in the story because they're unsure or afraid, and the facts get cloudy.


#15

strawman

strawman

So you believe the abused are telling the truth but believe the abuser is innocent at the same time?
I believe the abused, but accept that our current "innocent until proven guilty" and "beyond a reasonable doubt" legal system is as good as fallible humans can manage, and thus when there is not enough evidence to prove the abuse, then the abuser is allowed to go free even if they did commit the crime.

It's essentially acceptance of the limitations of our society, and knowing that while some will be caught, others will go free.

Given the statistics that 1 in five girls are molested before the age of 18, and one in twelve boys are (source), one has to assume that millions of people are abusing and getting away with it - many more, I suspect, than those that are caught.

It is frighteningly easy to gain a child's trust. It is exceptionally hard for people to come forward with their abuse.

Therefore when an adult does come forward with stories of their childhood abuse, well, it is easier for me to believe the abused than it is to believe the abuser.[DOUBLEPOST=1391531835,1391531623][/DOUBLEPOST]
The more a child is asked to repeat a story to all these different parties, the more they think they must be saying/doing something wrong.
This is so true. "Are you sure?"

The adults in the scenario feel like they're trying to nail jello to a tree, and it's frustrating for them.

Imagine what the jello feels like.


#16

CrimsonSoul

CrimsonSoul

I would go to jail for murder of someone ever sexually assaulted my kids.


#17

Espy

Espy

The reality is our culture is geared to very, very black and white thinking, and holding any opposing ideas in tension is very hard. I think this is one of those places where it's worth learning to hold that tension.


#18

Tinwhistler

Tinwhistler

It's hard for me to automatically fall into "believe the abuser" camp. "Seriously listen to the abuser," sure, because you can't know at the outset whether the allegations are true or not. But I can't bring myself to 100% believe the abuser, in all cases. Kid's sometimes lie. Parents in nasty divorces also lie.

Some interesting reading:
https://www.missouristate.edu/assets/swk/Module-12_Handout-2_Fact_Sheet_Divorce_and_Allegations.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_allegation_of_child_sexual_abuse

It's known that false allegations happen, and that the percentage goes up when in the middle of a nasty split. Even if the incidence is low, it's still a significant number. That makes it very difficult to always believe the accuser as a default stance. I feel about it much the way I feel about rape accusations: Take the allegations seriously, and investigate. That's a significant (but rational, I think) step away from always believing.


#19

Bowielee

Bowielee

I'm not really going to weigh in on the abuse angle because I may come off as too much of a clinical, emotionless cyborg.

However, this brings to mind all the threads about Polanski, Jackson, etc... I have no problem whatsoever divorcing an artist's personal life from their art as far as my enjoyment of it goes. So, even if the originally quoted account is 100% true, I'll still love Annie Hall.


#20

Espy

Espy

Take the allegations seriously, and investigate. That's a significant (but rational, I think) step away from always believing.
Good enough for me.

Like I said before, believing or taking very seriously their story (pick one, I think it's heading towards semantics territory at this point) in no way means that we throw critical thinking out the window. The problem is many don't understand how to do that without re-traumatizing the victim.


#21

PatrThom

PatrThom

I should note that I, personally, don't have enough real information to take any sides in this argument.
This, really.
memory really is quite malleable, especially in the capable hands of trusted adults, and so utterly believable that we do not actually hear the truth.
Especially deserving of consideration seeing as how recent research is showing that reliving traumatic memories actually rewrites them in your brain, as if the files are first duplicated and then the originals erased. That same research shows that these memories can be "pushed" during the copy process, such that the rewritten copy may actually be slightly different than the original. Add to this the fact that traumatic memories are read/written orders of magnitude more frequently than other memories and the opportunity for perceived reality to drift from the original goes way, way up.

But to answer the question in the OP, I'm having a hard time narrowing it down between three movies.
Casino Royale, Sleeper, or Antz.
I haven't seen CR or Sleeper since I was probably 11yrs old, and I still haven't finished watching all of Antz (which I realize I started watching probably 6 years ago).

--Patrick


#22

Krisken

Krisken

I've never seen a Woody Allen movie. At this point, I'm kinda proud of that.


#23

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

Chinatown.
No one else noticed this? :p

Anyway, I've only seen Match Point, Small Time Crooks, and Mighty Aphrodite, and I didn't care for any of them.


#24

Bowielee

Bowielee

I've never seen a Woody Allen movie. At this point, I'm kinda proud of that.
You shouldn't be.


#25

Krisken

Krisken



#26

Bowielee

Bowielee

There's a reason he's lauded as one of the best filmmakers of all time.
You're seriously missing out if you haven't seen any of his movies.


#27

Krisken

Krisken

Meh. Seen bits here and there, didn't hold my interest.

I appreciate the joy it brings joy to others. Just didn't interest me.


#28

WasabiPoptart

WasabiPoptart

Never saw any of his films. I haven't had an interest in them.


#29

Espy

Espy

One of my favorite writers on the net posted this piece and it's spot on:

One might think that an admission of sexual abuse from a young woman would quiet the debate, but it only seemed to fan the flames. Even more folks began weighing in on whether or not Woody Allen really molested his daughter. The noise of the mob suggesting that Dylan is lying has been so deafening that I thought it might be time for a refresher course on sexual abuse, and when it’s okay to question a victim who is self-reporting her story.

Sexual abuse is a profound trauma for a child that can have far-reaching psychological ramifications. It is one of the most difficult and damaging events that can occur to a child. As a therapist, the revelation of sexual abuse requires compassion and concern. It is a gross violation and it produces overwhelming shame. Many women (or men) who have been sexually abused will never share their stories, choosing to bear this secret alone. It is quite rare for someone to lie about sexual abuse. It is also quite difficult for people to talk about.

Therefore, when someone discloses a history of sexual abuse, it should be taken seriously.

Now, let’s go over the valid reasons to accuse someone of lying as they report their sexual abuse history:
Q: Is it okay to assume a person is lying because the perpetrator seems really nice?
A: No.


Q: What if the perpetrator is really talented?
A: No.


Q: What if the victim has a history of drug use?
A. Still not okay. In fact, sexual abuse and later drug abuse are correlated.


Q: Okay, what if the victim seems kind of unstable or histrionic?
A: Nope.


Q: What if the victim’s mom seems prone to drama?
A: No.


Q: What if the victim’s mom got a divorce?
A: Still no


Q: What if I read a blog post by someone who knew them?
A: No.


Q: What if someone on facebook convinced me it’s not true?
A: No.


Q: What if I really don’t want it to be true because it makes me uncomfortable?
A: No


In review, IT’S NEVER OKAY TO QUESTION SOMEONE’S ACCOUNT OF SEXUAL ABUSE unless you are the accused or representing the accused in a court of law. For everyone else, it’s not of our business, and publicly speculating that it’s a lie is perpetuating the rape culture that tells women that they should stay silent. Or worse, that it’s up for debate if they come forward.

Wondering if Dylan Farrow is telling the truth? It doesn’t matter. It’s not our place to question her story.


#30

GasBandit

GasBandit

One of the better fallacious arguments I've read recently.


#31

Espy

Espy

Go nuts then questioning whether or not a girl was raped. No one can stop you.


#32

Celt Z

Celt Z

Even before the allegations, I wasn't in love with his work. I've seen a good number of his movies and most of them left me feeling like they were over-rated, and that includes Annie Hall. Not bad, just not really worth the rave reviews he seemed to get. Out of all of them, I think I enjoyed Zelig the most.


#33

GasBandit

GasBandit

Go nuts then questioning whether or not a girl was raped. No one can stop you.
Certainly not with fallacious appeals to emotion, they can't. That post in particular was tumblr-grade emoshit.


#34

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

jesus christ you really are a stain on humanity, aren't you


#35

Tinwhistler

Tinwhistler

For everyone else, it’s not of our business, and publicly speculating...
I think if you want to be shielded from public scrutiny, you probably shouldn't tweet about it or write op-ed pieces about it for the news. Last I checked, it wasn't Woody Allen that put this conversation into the public discourse.


#36

Espy

Espy

Sigh.


#37

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

I think if you want to be shielded from public scrutiny, you probably shouldn't tweet about it or write op-ed pieces about it for the news. Last I checked, it wasn't Woody Allen that put this conversation into the public discourse.

holy fuck, you guys are really smug little shits about a kid getting raped, aren't you. Hail rape culture. Please fucking ban me so I never interact with you people again


#38

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

holy fuck, you guys are really smug little shits about a kid getting raped, aren't you. Hail rape culture. Please fucking ban me so I never interact with you people again
Sure, sure. Lump us all in together as if we all share that exact same opinion. Nimrod.

Personally, it wouldn't surprise me. We know Woody Allen has some strange sexual fetishes or a particular interest in sexuality in general. He likely has a very different worldview about sexuality than many others. The proof is in his history already with his current wife and former step-daughter. I don't doubt this happened, but I do have to question why she chose now to come forward and the manner in which she did rather than, say, discussing it with the proper authorities or lawyers. Again, not doubting it, just wondering the hows and whys.

Rather than quickly judge either side, I'd like to consider everyone innocent until proven guilty. That includes a thorough investigation. If she was, indeed, abused as a child? Then I don't care what his accolades are. He deserves to serve time for that. And believe me, if it's true, that would be punishment enough, if what's said about how paedophiles are treated in prisons is true.


#39

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

you people is tinwhistler and gasbandit

but if we're still doing stupid snipes at each other, last vegas fucking sucks


#40

Espy

Espy

Sigh. Alright. I think this thread is done. It's a heated topic, I get that. I don't think there's much more to say about it so lets all move on.

:lock:


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