Export thread

http://money.cnn.com/2012/02/02/news/economy/obama_tax_rich_jesus/index.htm?iid=GM

When Bush indicated that he considered his religious beliefs in shaping his policy, it ignited a firestorm.

When Obama says it, nothing.

Why is it different this time, or for this president? Is it merely that the liberals were the cause of the firestorm last time, but since this is their candidate they aren't going to complain?

Don't get me wrong - I don't believe a politician can say that they are a rtue believer of their faith, but don't allow it to influence their decisions. As far as I'm concerned it's a good thing, so I'm not complaining about his statement. I'm merely wondering why it's not as big an issue this time around as last time.

Can you find a link to the "firestorm" in any way? Not that I doubt it, but I think it's important to the discussion to have a relatively mainstream example or two.

It's really in our nature to ignore the faults in leaders/politicians we personally prefer that we criticize in others. I haven't noticed those who would have supported Bush's similar rhetoric applauding Obama for this so it's the same idea in reverse.

Which to me, really sums up the real issue in our political system. We are not actually concerned about the candidates and their real positions nor about actually changing anything or making things better. We merely want to beat the other guy whom we have been told to hate.

Espy said:

We merely want to beat the other guy whom we have been told to hate.

Click to expand...

I've always interpreted it more that we don't want the person in that we've been told to fear rather than hate. There's some of both certainly, but I've always perceived it more as fear (at least in Canada). Fear what they'll do, fear what they won't do, etc. But that may be more personal perception. YMMV I guess.

Eriol said:

I've always interpreted it more that we don't want the person in that we've been told to fear rather than hate. There's some of both certainly, but I've always perceived it more as fear (at least in Canada). Fear what they'll do, fear what they won't do, etc. But that may be more personal perception. YMMV I guess.

Click to expand...

Eh, you aren't wrong. Hate and Fear are probably interchangeable, hell, it may be even less emotional than that, I mean, I'm sure for many it's less about beating the other guy because of an emotional or good reason and more because they are the other guy who isn't your guy, etc.

The comments in that article...


WHY DO I READ THESE?

Ravenpoe said:

The comments in that article...


WHY DO I READ THESE?

Click to expand...

Your drummer told you to?

The day that Obama's religiously influenced leadership steers him away from his help the America economy, pursue peace, and take care of the poorest people in the nation plans and into Bush's squandering the Clinton surplus on a tax cuts that send us into major deficit spending, killing 4,500 in an illegal stupid war in Iraq along with the trillions of dollars wasted in a completely optional war and then destroying the economy by refusing to regulate the predatory lending companies.

When Obama does change into that kind of stupid hypocrisy I will personally ignite the firestorm. Till then I'll enjoy the fact that we have a president who tries to exemplify the best in the bible instead of trying to recreate the old testament.

yup, big difference is God didn't tell Obama to go fuck around in the Middle East and slaughter people for a while
Added at: 18:28
but hey, since this is the new Roger Ailes GOP line memo we're going to hear people drone about this for a while

Yeah, I'd have to go with 'what policies religious beliefs shape' as well. Helping people is cool. Killing people, not so much. If Obama had said his religious beliefs are what convinced him to kill Osama Bin Laden, then yeah, I'd be like "Dude, WTF?"

Krisken said:

Yeah, I'd have to go with 'what policies religious beliefs shape' as well. Helping people is cool. Killing people, not so much. If Obama had said his religious beliefs are what convinced him to kill Osama Bin Laden, then yeah, I'd be like "Dude, WTF?"

Click to expand...

I kind of get what you're saying, but at the end of the day, killing a dude is still killing a dude. If Bush had never mentioned God in relation to the war in the middle east, would you have been more supportive of it?

Depends on the reasoning. I was initially in favor of the war (betcha didn't see that coming, eh?). The lack of WMD's being found and discovering the level of BS coming out of that administration was pretty much what turned me against it.

I wasn't always liberal minded.

Krisken said:

Depends on the reasoning. I was initially in favor of the war (betcha didn't see that coming, eh?). The lack of WMD's being found and discovering the level of BS coming out of that administration was pretty much what turned me against it.

I wasn't always liberal minded.

Click to expand...

This must be what it's like when doves cry.

Exact same story with me.

Count me in that pile as well. I was for it until the WMD thing went plop. I mean really, go watch the Colin Powell speech to the UN and tell me you don't support whatever that man is saying. He gave one hell of a speech.

That being said I get very, very suspicious whenever any politician is using the Bible or "God" to justify policy or their actions. I'm not saying it's wrong... but that adds a whole other critical level to how I'm viewing them.

same boat as you guys
Added at: 01:01
but then again, the sheer nationalism and jingoism going down right after 9/11...

I was a liberal pre 9/11, and quite frankly, being against the administration in the few years following 09/11 was not a fun thing. I recall beign called un-american multiple times because I refused to blindly flag-wave and not question the administration's direction. I'd argue that questioning the government is the most American thing you can do, seeing how this country started and all.

what's un-american fluctuates with the zeitgeist, regardless whether liberals or conservatives are spewing it.

Freedom fries!


I registered as a republican at age 18, in 2003. I honestly didn't know much about the party differences at that time. It was taking more of an interest in politics during the Iraq War that led to me changing my party affiliation.

Bowielee said:

I was a liberal pre 9/11, and quite frankly, being against the administration in the few years following 09/11 was not a fun thing. I recall beign called un-american multiple times because I refused to blindly flag-wave and not question the administration's direction. I'd argue that questioning the government is the most American thing you can do, seeing how this country started and all.

Click to expand...

I feel you man. Registered as Independent in 2003 but generally lean left. I live in Central Ohio... which is predominately Republican (except in Columbus proper and most of the poorer areas of the Westside). How Republican is it? I was almost thrown out of my polling place in '04 for wearing a t-shirt with the image of a donkey on it. It wasn't even a political t-shirt. I can barely talk to some of my family because of how far right they are.

ElJuski said:

what's un-american fluctuates with the zeitgeist, regardless whether liberals or conservatives are spewing it.

Click to expand...

That there is Commie talk! Hows the weather in Moscow, Mr. Kremlin Red?

Bowielee said:

I was a liberal pre 9/11, and quite frankly, being against the administration in the few years following 09/11 was not a fun thing. I recall beign called un-american multiple times because I refused to blindly flag-wave and not question the administration's direction. I'd argue that questioning the government is the most American thing you can do, seeing how this country started and all.

Click to expand...

I have to admit, part of the reason why I haven't yet visited the States was, along with the cost of travel, the feeling that I'd just be asking for trouble if I did or said anything that could be construed as criticism of Bush. Hell, even here I try not to say anything in these political threads, since some things we consider reasonable and commonplace here in my country are apparently borderline Communism in American political rhetoric.

North_Ranger said:

I have to admit, part of the reason why I haven't yet visited the States was, along with the cost of travel, the feeling that I'd just be asking for trouble if I did or said anything that could be construed as criticism of Bush. Hell, even here I try not to say anything in these political threads, since some things we consider reasonable and commonplace here in my country are apparently borderline Communism in American political rhetoric.

Click to expand...

Yes america is a very dangerous place stay away

ElJuski said:

Yes america is a very dangerous place stay away

Click to expand...

Naaah... I've actually promised myself I'll do something I always wanted to do, once the cancer treatments are over and I'm back on the mend. Visit New York City.

New York isn't so bad once you get past the pimps and the CHUDs

CHUDs?

ElJuski said:

New York isn't so bad once you get past the pimps and the CHUDs

Click to expand...

Well of course you're going to have a bad impression of the city if all you focus on are the pimps and the CHUDs!

North_Ranger said:

CHUDs?

Click to expand...

I was on my way to the Harrisburg coat outlet to buy myself an irregular coat...

ElJuski said:

I was on my way to the Harrisburg coat outlet to buy myself an irregular coat...

Click to expand...

Whoa whoa whoa that's dangerously close to my home turf there.

ElJuski said:

New York isn't so bad once you get past the pimps and the CHUDs

Click to expand...

I know you didn't mean it like this, but now I have an image of an actual defensive line of pimps patrolling the New York Bay. With CHUDs on sniper support from the sewer outtakes.

crikey, fellas.

Ayup.

I mean I know it's a Season 9 episode, but there are still some pretty good ones that late into the game....

ElJuski said:

I mean I know it's a Season 9 episode, but there are still some pretty good ones that late into the game....

Click to expand...

SpecialKO said:

Click to expand...

but no, the comparison between Bush and Obama is absolutely ridiculous and such an easy way to turn the argument away from the more important issues at hand. And I can't wait until Monday to get the new party line memo for the week.


EDIT: Oh shit an extra k

I seem to remember all the rabid Obama haters squealing recently about how people talk about Bush too much, and how they need to stop bring up Bush to score political points.

You can't have it both ways.

Why not? Everyone does.

Apparently not.

I actually DO think Obama has gotten a bit of a pass on the religion issue. There are certain issues that are pretty important to the left that he refuses to touch based on his religious beliefs, like gay marriage. On the other hand he had a hand in the repeal of DADT.

And with regards to that article, compare it to this:

When the Alabama Republican Whip Gerald Dial was asked if Jesus would support his immigration bill he paused and then said "Probably not."

I'm not sure of the significance, the article just made me think about it. Even republicans think that Jesus would have been a democrat. Or a commie.

I don't see him getting a pass on gay marriage.

Honestly, I think we give him a pass when he says stuff about his religion because, as a lefty, we don't believe he's being sincere at all. I know that I always thought it was just pointless pandering to silence the social conservatives in any case. Besides, his recent move to try and force religion-based health initiatives to dispense abortions and birth control really shows us where his priorities lie.

I'm pretty sure the sincerely religious Lefty archetype died with Kennedy and even he wasn't that devote.

AshburnerX said:

I'm pretty sure the sincerely religious Lefty archetype died with Kennedy and even he wasn't that devote.

Click to expand...

You mean he was a catholic.

Necronic said:

You mean he was a catholic.

Click to expand...

Basically. I've never meet someone who grew up Catholic that remained seriously devote into adulthood (that was born after 1950). Seriously... the easiest way to turn a Catholic into an agnostic/atheist is to make them go to Catholic school.

I always saw it going one of two opposite ways--running to, or running from, the church. I ended up doing the latter, but I have tons of friends that went the former.

AshburnerX said:

Basically. I've never meet someone who grew up Catholic that remained seriously devote into adulthood (that was born after 1950). Seriously... the easiest way to turn a Catholic into an agnostic/atheist is to make them go to Catholic school.

Click to expand...

As a man who grew up in a Catholic city who's entire public school system was Catholic, this. A hundred times this.

There's a big difference between subscribing to a religion's culture, and actually living the religion. In areas of high density of one particular faith, many people are culturally religious, but not faithful to the teachings of the religion.

stienman said:

There's a big difference between subscribing to a religion's culture, and actually living the religion. In areas of high density of one particular faith, many people are culturally religious, but not faithful to the teachings of the religion.

Click to expand...

tell me more...

Quick nitpick, it's either devout or devoted.

Devote is a verb, the other two are adjectives.

Frankie Williamson said:

As a man who grew up in a Catholic city who's entire public school system was Catholic, this. A hundred times this.

Click to expand...

I grew up in a 90% Catholic area, and Catholic school honestly didn't mean shit all for me, it basically meant we went to Church during school hours so I could get out of going on Sunday. What turned me off of Catholicism was realizing that the whole doctrine outside of vanilla christian is a sexist, biased PoS. =/ Thankfully we don't live near my family, so no one outside of my mom and dad know that my kids aren't baptized/aren't being raised Catholic.

Most of my family on my dad's side are Catholic. Oldest aunt very devout, to the point where one of my cousins in her family is a priest. Dad is a layworker at his local church. My mom grew up Catholic, graduated from the local Catholic HS, but wasn't very devout after I was born.

Meanwhile, I'm a "born-again" Christian in the non-denominational category. Go figure.

My folks basically weren't that picky about churches. We were a military family, and just seemed to pick a church (they had some criteria I had no idea about) at each posting. So we went to a presbyterian church in one city, a lutheran the next, and a baptist in another, and by the time I was in high school we stopped going altogether. If you were to ask me, I'd be hard pressed to tell the differences between them, other than some said "forgive us our trespasses" and others said "forgive us our debts."