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Why should "waste" money in space research?

#1

Green_Lantern

Green_Lantern

I have opened some threads about my sister getting progresively more religious and nuts about it. (I hope this thread doesn't get to bawww-y)

Well, this happened during a trip and we are watching a discovery channel and she made a comment how this is a waste of money that could be used to feed/save poor people in africa (and then, went to use her new touch screen cellphone).

My usual reaction to this is to stay quiet, honestly, because I prefer to keep a low profile, but secondly, I really don't think that there is a chance of convicing her with logic or reason.

Also, the reason, I think we should "waste" money like that is simply to better understand the way that universe works (that, again I know she would ignore or dismiss), and that eventually these knowledge would become usefull, if people din't "wasted" money with scientific research just because they aren't imediatiely usefull, we wouldn't have cellphones today.

I am wrong???


#2

Cajungal

Cajungal

I think that it's better to explore something like that than to not. There would be poor, starving people whether or not the research was done. If the sad state of the world bothers her so much she should get in there and fix it.


#3

Dave

Dave

Unless you explore there's no way of knowing what beneficial knowledge there is to be gained. Without all that pesky science stuff we'd all still be living in caves flinging poop at each other.



And that's every day, not just the weekends.


#4

Gusto

Gusto

She'll change her tune when we discover a planet made of food.


#5

Silver Jelly

Silver Jelly

I recently discovered my pillow is made from material designed for space exploration. The science developed for this kind of futile task has so many ramifications over the actual "discovering stuff in space"!


#6

Cajungal

Cajungal

Gusto said:
She'll change her tune when we discover a planet made of food.
Click to expand...
*blast laugh*


#7

Denbrought

Denbrought

People come and go, but exploration and research leave a body of knowledge that can remain useful until many generations past ours. We're still feeling the ramifications of the European exploration that lead to the rediscovery of the Americas, and they had plenty of starving people too.


#8

DarkAudit

DarkAudit

Not my words. The sentiment is thousands of years old.

Surely you're not saying we have the resources to save the poor from their lot?
There will be poor always, pathetically struggling, look at the good things you've got!
Think while you still have me, move while you still need me. You'll be lost and you'll be sorry when I'm gone!
Click to expand...


#9

Cajungal

Cajungal

DarkAudit said:
Not my words. The sentiment is thousands of years old.

Surely you're not saying we have the resources to save the poor from their lot?
There will be poor always, pathetically struggling, look at the good things you've got!
Think while you still have me, move while you still need me. You'll be lost and you'll be sorry when I'm gone!
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
*high five*


#10

Covar

Covar

You could send 4 times the NASA budget to Africa and it wouldn't help things.

Some problems can not be fixed by throwing money at them.


#11

@Li3n

@Li3n

Covar said:
Some problems can not be fixed by throwing money at them.
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What are you, some kind of commie?! No real american would ever think that.


#12

Baerdog

Baerdog

Andrew Carnegie, one of the most successful American businessmen thought that!

He was also Scottish, so...yeah.


#13



Dusty668

Source

Pet-related sales in the United States are projected to be $31 billion
Toy Sales $20.3 billion.
Gambling $586.5 billion.
Tobacco products $31 billion-Alcohol use $58 billion-Tobacco & Alcohol products healthcare costs $250 billion.

$15.47 billion NASA budget.

Now, I recall a cost benefit analysis done by the British government that shows space exploration expenditures puts 2.5 times it's cost back into the GPA of the source country but I cannot find it.

However the best CBA for that I can find was done by a carpenter in Nazarene 'The Poor You Shall Have With You Always' What does this mean for this question though, charity is a self defeating solution. Am I saying it's wrong to give to the poor and hungry? Absolutely not, just that every dollar you give to the poor makes more poor and creates the need for more charity. Every dollar you put into Space makes for a larger body of knowledge and makes more possibilities for all of us. Also the further opportunities provided makes more opportunities for the poor to actually break their current cycle and not need charity.

Now at this point we can go to all the research they have been doing in microgravity crystallization, energy research, fuel cell technology, OLED creation, color TV's, Microwave ovens, and yes even Corelware that have been directly created, improved or inspired by space based tech. We could even discuss how getting industry off of our planet into a high energy environment of space we can save our planet. But lunch is over, and I can't go into it now.


#14

@Li3n

@Li3n

The problem with charity when it's only about food and clothes is that it only keeps the poor alive, but does little to actually solve the problem...


#15

Dave

Dave

But if you have food and clothes it's a fuck of a lot easier to fix your shit. Giving is good. Reading more into it can be counterproductive.


#16

@Li3n

@Li3n

I don't know, death seems like the most enduring fix to me... :hmmm:




I'm not against charity, it's just that i find it as a lazy way to help, you're basically just keeping them alive and hope they sort it all out... give them a fish vs teaching them to fish etc.


#17

sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

It is wrong to tell a shoeless man to pull himself up by his boot-straps.


#18

Rob King

Rob King

Aid and charity is good, but infrastructure and education is better.

Re: Space Exploration. There are a lot of good reasons, that I'm sure other people will touch on. One that might get left out, though, is 'Jobs.' I used to have an issue with the film industry, spending so much money paying huge sums to a few actors, and all only for entertainment. But a single film can employ hundreds, maybe even thousands of people. The space program, for what other good it might do (which is a lot, don't get me wrong) also provides a shitton of jobs.

Mind you, that's not my favorite reason. My favorite reason is so that when the meteor comes and plows into earth, we might already be set up on Mars or Venus, or in another Solar System by that point. The guaranteed continuity of the human race.


#19

sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

Hopefully we will discover Unobtainium on Mars.


#20

Green_Lantern

Green_Lantern

Why is charity = throwing money at the problem? I understand that charity could include both "giving the fish" and "teach how to fish" too.

either way, thanks for the very good justifications :)


#21

sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

But I think the whole saying goes,



"Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he will sit on his ass all day drinking beer."


#22

@Li3n

@Li3n

sixpackshaker said:
It is wrong to tell a shoeless man to pull himself up by his boot-straps.
Click to expand...
Actually i was thinking more along the lines of putting shoes on him and showing him how to best pull...

Why is charity = throwing money at the problem? I understand that charity could include both "giving the fish" and "teach how to fish" too.
Click to expand...
That's why i made sure i mentioned what kind of charity.


#23

Green_Lantern

Green_Lantern

I prefer the one "give a man a poisoned fish and you will feed him for the rest of his life"


#24

@Li3n

@Li3n

Dude, don't ruin the surprise...


#25



Chibibar

Green_Lantern said:
I have opened some threads about my sister getting progresively more religious and nuts about it. (I hope this thread doesn't get to bawww-y)

Well, this happened during a trip and we are watching a discovery channel and she made a comment how this is a waste of money that could be used to feed/save poor people in africa (and then, went to use her new touch screen cellphone).

My usual reaction to this is to stay quiet, honestly, because I prefer to keep a low profile, but secondly, I really don't think that there is a chance of convicing her with logic or reason.

Also, the reason, I think we should "waste" money like that is simply to better understand the way that universe works (that, again I know she would ignore or dismiss), and that eventually these knowledge would become usefull, if people din't "wasted" money with scientific research just because they aren't imediatiely usefull, we wouldn't have cellphones today.

I am wrong???
Click to expand...
no. I have met some of these people myself. There are people who highly believe that we should not explore space cause they believe they are the only living being in this universe, but what most don't realize that there are more than just "search for life"

Many current technology born from space program. I think your best bet is to research many of the stuff your sister use daily and show her than space exploration = better way of life. Also once we figure how to grow food successfully in space (harshest environment when you don't have air ;) ) we can replicate this and grow food in these "poor" countries. If we figure how to make a successful base on Mars, I figure we can EASILY make a base in the middle of the desert that is SELF sustaining since Mars require such a base.

the list is practically endless. The more we learn from space exploration, the better lives we live here on Earth. (my opinion)


#26

@Li3n

@Li3n

You fogot about all those minerals and gases we'll need when the Earth runs out...


#27



Chibibar

@Li3n said:
You fogot about all those minerals and gases we'll need when the Earth runs out...
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Yea, I did :)

Oil is not forever.


#28

Baerdog

Baerdog

But diamonds are forever.


#29



Chibibar

Baerdog7 said:
But diamonds are forever.
Click to expand...
True, but if you can draw power from it. Patent it and market it. You'll be richer than dirt ;)


#30

Baerdog

Baerdog

You make them into a space laser, duh.



#31

AshburnerX

AshburnerX

I honestly never bought this "We are alone" nonsense. How arrogant do you have to be to believe that in all the vastness of Space, that only Humanity exists? That we are truly so special that nothing could match "greatness"? It's one thing to believe that a highly advanced species visits Earth routinely to help us build monuments and piss off our cows, because that IS ludicrous. It's entirely another to believe that there is SOMETHING alive out there somewhere and that it could take us thousands of years to find.

Besides, even if there isn't, Earth isn't going to last forever. Even if we don't fuck it up ourselves, it's eventually going to be consumed when our sun goes nova. That's likely to take millions of years, but it IS a real threat.


#32

@Li3n

@Li3n

AshburnerX said:
It's one thing to believe that a highly advanced species visits Earth routinely to help us build monuments and piss off our cows, because that IS ludicrous.
Click to expand...
But so damn fun...

AshburnerX said:
Besides, even if there isn't, Earth isn't going to last forever. Even if we don't fuck it up ourselves, it's eventually going to be consumed when our sun goes nova. That's likely to take millions of years, but it IS a real threat.
Click to expand...
More like trillions...


#33

Silver Jelly

Silver Jelly

Chibibar;351064][QUOTE=Baerdog7 said:
But diamonds are forever.
Click to expand...
True, but if you can draw power from it. Patent it and market it. You'll be richer than dirt ;)[/QUOTE]

.


#34



Kitty Sinatra

Green_Lantern said:
Well, this happened during a trip and we are watching a discovery channel and she made a comment how this is a waste of money that could be used to feed/save poor people in africa
Click to expand...
Exactly how much does your sister think that Brazil spends on space research, anyway?


#35

Green_Lantern

Green_Lantern

Why do you think she was talking about Brazil in specific, she was speaking of space research in general.


#36



Chibibar

This is a good list of all the spin off (at least most of it) from space exploration.
http://www.thespaceplace.com/nasa/spinoffs.html


#37

Bubble181

Bubble181

As has been already said, a lot of the value of space exploration research comes from the spin-offs and technologies. The average cellphone now has far more computing power than the computers that flew the Apollo missions, but one wouldn't exist without the other.
Without space exploration research, we'd still be in the fifties...or, at the very least, research and thus, our entire culture, would be completely different.
Oh, and don't forget that we need to put a man on mars to show those silly commies wh's got the biggest genitalia. Right?


#38



Chibibar

Bubble181 said:
As has been already said, a lot of the value of space exploration research comes from the spin-offs and technologies. The average cellphone now has far more computing power than the computers that flew the Apollo missions, but one wouldn't exist without the other.
Without space exploration research, we'd still be in the fifties...or, at the very least, research and thus, our entire culture, would be completely different.
Oh, and don't forget that we need to put a man on mars to show those silly commies wh's got the biggest genitalia. Right?
Click to expand...
Yea. except the "new" commies is China. either sending someone to Mars or setup a base on the Moon


#39

Gusto

Gusto

It should be noted that our Sun has about 6 billion years to go (rough estimate, of course) and Earth will be consumed in it's great red expansion LONG before any possible nova happens.


#40

AshburnerX

AshburnerX

Chibibar;352792][QUOTE=Bubble181 said:
As has been already said, a lot of the value of space exploration research comes from the spin-offs and technologies. The average cellphone now has far more computing power than the computers that flew the Apollo missions, but one wouldn't exist without the other.
Without space exploration research, we'd still be in the fifties...or, at the very least, research and thus, our entire culture, would be completely different.
Oh, and don't forget that we need to put a man on mars to show those silly commies wh's got the biggest genitalia. Right?
Click to expand...
Yea. except the "new" commies is China. either sending someone to Mars or setup a base on the Moon[/QUOTE]

Both are currently impossible. We don't have the means to survive the long term radiation exposure we'd experience beyond the Van Allen belt. This is the reason why nearly ALL of the astronauts involved with the moon landings have had some serious health problems later in life: the radiation is extreme enough to kill you if you spend a long time out there and they had virtually no protection against it.


#41

Rob King

Rob King

AshburnerX said:
Both are currently impossible. We don't have the means to survive the long term radiation exposure we'd experience beyond the Van Allen belt. This is the reason why nearly ALL of the astronauts involved with the moon landings have had some serious health problems later in life: the radiation is extreme enough to kill you if you spend a long time out there and they had virtually no protection against it.
Click to expand...
I read somewhere that like ... 80% of the Apolo astronauts developed cataracts, and that this is actually pretty good evidence to throw in the face of the 'faked landings' morons.

Circumstantial? Yeah. But cool? Pretty.


#42



Chibibar

Rob King;352862][QUOTE=AshburnerX said:
Both are currently impossible. We don't have the means to survive the long term radiation exposure we'd experience beyond the Van Allen belt. This is the reason why nearly ALL of the astronauts involved with the moon landings have had some serious health problems later in life: the radiation is extreme enough to kill you if you spend a long time out there and they had virtually no protection against it.
Click to expand...
I read somewhere that like ... 80% of the Apolo astronauts developed cataracts, and that this is actually pretty good evidence to throw in the face of the 'faked landings' morons.

Circumstantial? Yeah. But cool? Pretty.[/QUOTE]

Oh I totally know that we don't have the technology right now, but that is where space program come into play. We can't really "test" these things back home since we have these nice multiple layer of radiation protection that protect our planet. (unless we screw that up)


#43

Green_Lantern

Green_Lantern

QUestion: All those spin-offs, couldn't we find out in another way? did they could only come from space operation?


#44



Chibibar

Green_Lantern said:
QUestion: All those spin-offs, couldn't we find out in another way? did they could only come from space operation?
Click to expand...
Of course you can. The problem is that very very very few company will research stuff that "may" produce a profit down the line. Government funded research allows more open research. Sure private industry DO research many things, but ultimately toward a specific idea/goal and not as open (in my observation)

I believe space exploration "accelerate" many studies because there is a major need for compact, portable, and reusable. Companies LOVE to keep using old tech as long as they can cause it generate profit. Two major I can think of from my econ class are Telephone company (the old lines that Bell install YEARS ago) and Gas cars.


#45

Rob King

Rob King

Scientific inventions and military inventions always end up being the most creative.


#46



Chibibar

Rob King said:
Scientific inventions and military inventions always end up being the most creative.
Click to expand...
Yea cause they got the money :)


#47

ThatGrinningIdiot!

ThatGrinningIdiot!

Funny that there's no mention of asteroids or meteors. Ya know, those cosmic objects that could really fuck shit up yo. Word.

Seriously though, it would do us no good to pretend that they're aren't hundreds of massive objects in space capable of annihilating all life on Earth as we know it. Just sayin'.


#48

Bowielee

Bowielee

J Michael Strasinski had the best reasoning for space exploration I've ever heard.

Ask ten different scientists about the environment, population control, genetics, and you'll get ten different answers, but there's one thing every scientist on the planet agrees on. Whether it happens in a hundred years or a thousand years or a million years, eventually our Sun will grow cold and go out. When that happens, it won't just take us. It'll take Marilyn Monroe, and Lao-Tzu, and Einstein, and Morobuto, and Buddy Holly, and Aristophanes…[and] all of this…all of this…was for nothing. Unless we go to the stars.
Click to expand...


#49



Kitty Sinatra

Green_Lantern said:
Why do you think she was talking about Brazil in specific, she was speaking of space research in general.
Click to expand...
Because she's Brazilian. I don't see why she would care about how Canada fritters its money away.


#50



Dusty668

Rob King said:
Scientific inventions and military inventions always end up being the most creative.
Click to expand...
That's because in most cases these are inventions for a purpose. Most microminiaturization was intended to get needed guidance inside a missile nose cone or fit pounds of performance into ounces of cargo on manned flight. They have the budget to do pure research often or try things not 'directly applicable to market'. In commercial research, first you have toprove why something will make the company money, then how you will make it, then make it.


BlackCrossCrusader said:
Funny that there's no mention of asteroids or meteors. Ya know, those cosmic objects that could really fuck shit up yo. Word.

Seriously though, it would do us no good to pretend that they're aren't hundreds of massive objects in space capable of annihilating all life on Earth as we know it. Just sayin'.
Click to expand...
Once we get serious with space flight we will do something about those, mine them for metals, volatiles, and use the empty shells for silica, and ballast for shielding.


#51

Green_Lantern

Green_Lantern

Gruebeard;354090][QUOTE=Green_Lantern said:
Why do you think she was talking about Brazil in specific, she was speaking of space research in general.
Click to expand...
Because she's Brazilian. I don't see why she would care about how Canada fritters its money away.[/QUOTE]

You forget that I mentioned that she was doing it because of her "Christianity"-ness, and in her mentality is not about the country, but about how people aren't perfect as she is.

(note: before someone shouts about "Attacks on Religion", see that underlined that is her mentality, even she doesn't realize herself)


#52



Kitty Sinatra

You should tell her that Russia, India, China and Japan aren't even Christian. :p

But anyway, there's really not that much money in space research. NASA's budget is $19 billion - that's 19 out out of a budget of 3,500 billion. And most of that money probably goes to mundane stuff like launching military and communication satellites.

. . . I can't believe I described anything about space as "mundane"


#53

Green_Lantern

Green_Lantern

Gruebeard said:
You should tell her that Russia, India, China and Japan aren't even Christian. :p
Click to expand...
Hey, She is annoying, but she still my sister, I don't want to break her little fragile mind ;)

(and isn't Russia back to christianism?)

Gruebeard said:
But anyway, there's really not that much money in space research. NASA's budget is $19 billion - that's 19 out out of a budget of 3,500 billion. And most of that money probably goes to mundane stuff like launching military and communication satellites.
Click to expand...
Good point.

Gruebeard said:
. . . I can't believe I described anything about space as "mundane"
Click to expand...
Welcome to the future, my friend, the sky is not the limit, is just a limit.


#54



Kitty Sinatra

Green_Lantern said:
(and isn't Russia back to christianism?)
Click to expand...
Probably.

But I was also kinda thinking back to the USSR when they actually had money to spend.


#55

AshburnerX

AshburnerX

Dusty668 said:
BlackCrossCrusader said:
Funny that there's no mention of asteroids or meteors. Ya know, those cosmic objects that could really fuck shit up yo. Word.

Seriously though, it would do us no good to pretend that they're aren't hundreds of massive objects in space capable of annihilating all life on Earth as we know it. Just sayin'.
Click to expand...
Once we get serious with space flight we will do something about those, mine them for metals, volatiles, and use the empty shells for silica, and ballast for shielding.
Click to expand...
Or just use them to destroy species we don't like. Assuming we have the budget for it...

Rocks are NOT “free”, citizen.

Firstly, you must manoeuvre the Emperor’s naval vessel within reach of the asteroid belt, almost assuredly sustaining damage to the Emperor’s ship’s paint from micrometeoroids, while expending the Emperor’s fuel.

Then the tech priests must inspect the rock in question to ascertain its worthyness to do the Emperor’s bidding. Should it pass muster, the Emperor’s Servitors must use the Emperor’s auto-scrappers and melta-cutters to prepare the potential ordinance for movement. Finally, the tech priests finished, the Emperor’s officers may begin manoeuvring the Emperor’s warship to abut the asteroid at the prepared face (expending yet more of the Emperor’s fuel), and then begin boosting the stone towards the offensive planet.

After a few days of expending a prodigious amount of the Emperor’s fuel to accelerate the asteroid into an orbit more fitting to the emperor’s desires, the Emperor’s ship may then return to the planet via superluminous warp travel and await the arrival of the stone, still weeks (or months) away.

After twiddling away the Emperor’s time and eating the Emperor’s food in the wasteful pursuit of making sure that the Emperor’s enemies do not launch a deflection mission, they may finally watch the ordinance impact on the planet (assuming the Emperor’s warship does not need to attempt any last-minute course correction upon the rock, using yet more of the Emperor’s fuel).

Given a typical (class Bravo-CVII) system, we have the following:
Two months, O&M, Titan class warship: 4.2 Million Imperials.
Two months, rations, crew of same: 0.2 MI
Two months, Tech Priest pastor: 1.7 MI
Two months, Servitor parish: 0.3 MI
Paint, Titan class warship: 0.9 MI
Dihydrogen peroxide fuel: 0.9 MI
Total: 9.8 MI

Contrasting with the following:
5 warheads, magna-melta: 2.5 MI
One day, O&M, Titan class warship: 0.3 MI
One day, rations, crew of same: 0.0 MI
Dihydrogen peroxide fuel: 0.1 MI
Total: 2.9 MI

Given the same amount with under one third of the cost, the Emperor will have saved a massive amount of His most sacred money and almost a full month of time, during which His warship may be bombarding an entirely different planet.

The Emperor, through this – His office of Imperial outlays – hereby orders you to attend one (1) week of therapeutic accountancy training/penance. Please report to Areicon IV, Imperial City, Administatum Building CXXI, Room 1456, where you are to sit in the BLUE chair.

For the Emperor,
Bursarius Tenathis,
Purser Level XI,
Imperial Office of Outlays.

CHAPTER APPROVED!!!!
Click to expand...


#56

tegid

tegid

Dusty668 said:
They have the budget to do pure research often or try things not 'directly applicable to market'. In commercial research, first you have toprove why something will make the company money, then how you will make it, then make it.
Click to expand...
That's exactly it. Scientists have the leisure of researching apparently useless things that increase our general knowledge. From these research come the actual scientific and technological revolutions.

I'd say something similar happens with space research. In this field large sums of money are devoted to solve outlandish or very specific problems that may not bring any important practical invention, but sometimes do, and since it's something unexpected, no one thought of it before, and will probably be much more revolutionary.

Also, companies can only do short term research, i.e. research that can/may give birth to a product or be sold within a couple of years.


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