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Women think very little of eachother...
#1
@Li3n
@Li3n
Seriously:
Women say some rape victims should take blame - survey
A majority of women believe some rape victims should take responsibility for what happened, a survey suggests.
Almost three quarters of the women who believed this said if a victim got into bed with the assailant before an attack they should accept some responsibility.
One-third blamed victims who had dressed provocatively or gone back to the attacker's house for a drink.
The survey of more than 1,000 people in London marked the 10th anniversary of the Haven service for rape victims.
More than half of those of both sexes questioned said there were some circumstances when a rape victim should accept responsibility for an attack.
Less forgiving
The study found that women were less forgiving of the victim than men.
Of the women who believed some victims should take responsibility, 71% thought a person should accept responsibility when getting into bed with someone, compared with 57% of men.
The survey also found more than one in 10 people were unsure whether they would report being raped to the police, and 2% said they would definitely not do so. The main reasons were being too embarrassed or ashamed (55%), wanting to forget it had happened (41%) and not wanting to go to court (38%).
Meanwhile, the survey suggested that many people are relaxed about their safety. Almost half of people have walked home via side streets on their own.
One in five has been so drunk they have lost their memory, while one in five has got into a taxi without checking whether it is licensed.
Hardening attitudes
When asked about their own experiences, more than a third of those polled said they had been in a situation where they could have been made to have sex against their will.
Women are more likely to have been in this situation - 40% compared to 20%.
And one in five adults had been in a situation where they were made to have sex when they did not want to. This had happened to more women (23%) than men (20%).
The online survey, titled Wake Up To Rape, polled 1,061 people aged 18 to 50, comprising 712 women and 349 men.
An Amnesty International report five years ago found that a significant minority of British people laid the blame for rape at victims themselves.
BBC home affairs correspondent Danny Shaw says this latest study suggests attitudes may have hardened.
And the findings may help explain why juries are reluctant to convict in some rape trials.
Elizabeth Harrison from Haven said there was never an excuse for forcing a woman to do something she did not want to.
"Clearly, women are in a position where they need to take responsibility for themselves - but whatever you wear and whatever you do does not give somebody else the right to rape you.
"It's important people take the time to actually look at what they are doing and make sure the person they are with is actually wanting to go ahead with what they are proposing."
#2
bhamv3
bhamv3
:wtf:
I have no words. This is messed up.
I have no words. This is messed up.
#3
GasBandit
GasBandit
They say a misogynist is someone who holds the same opinion of women that other women do...
#4
Krisken
Krisken
Who are "they"? Misogynists?They say a misogynist is someone who holds the same opinion of women that other women do...
#5
Espy
You know, "They". "THEY". "They" are always saying stuff. It's just what "they" do. But seriously, this is gonna be a fun topic I'm sure. Can't wait to lock this one up. :sneaky:
Espy
Who are "they"? Misogynists?[/QUOTE]They say a misogynist is someone who holds the same opinion of women that other women do...
You know, "They". "THEY". "They" are always saying stuff. It's just what "they" do. But seriously, this is gonna be a fun topic I'm sure. Can't wait to lock this one up. :sneaky:
#6
Adammon
Adammon
Key quote:
"Almost three quarters of the women who believed this said if a victim got into bed with the assailant before an attack they should accept some responsibility."
Some, not all.
And yes, if you put yourself into a bad situation, you do accept some responsibility for it.
"Almost three quarters of the women who believed this said if a victim got into bed with the assailant before an attack they should accept some responsibility."
Some, not all.
And yes, if you put yourself into a bad situation, you do accept some responsibility for it.
#7
Krisken
You know, "They". "THEY". "They" are always saying stuff. It's just what "they" do. But seriously, this is gonna be a fun topic I'm sure. Can't wait to lock this one up. :sneaky:[/QUOTE]
Hehe, Yeah, I'll be keeping an eye on it for funsies. I should have used a smiley to show I was being silly. I tend to seem overly serious with my House avatar.
Krisken
Who are "they"? Misogynists?[/QUOTE]They say a misogynist is someone who holds the same opinion of women that other women do...
You know, "They". "THEY". "They" are always saying stuff. It's just what "they" do. But seriously, this is gonna be a fun topic I'm sure. Can't wait to lock this one up. :sneaky:[/QUOTE]
Hehe, Yeah, I'll be keeping an eye on it for funsies. I should have used a smiley to show I was being silly. I tend to seem overly serious with my House avatar.
#8
The Lovely Boehner
And re: the article, women are not somehow exempt from being misogynists by a long shot. A lady I worked with was one of the worst people I've ever been around as far as saying "women shouldn't be leaders, I can't work for a female boss, they're all too emotional and they hate me since I'm prettier than them" and "women should never run for president, they'd launch a nuke every 4 weeks hahahahha". It's just as repugnant coming out of her mouth as any guy. And every time I would do some sort of slight double-take at what she said, she'd assure me "no, it's okay, I can say that, I'm a woman." No, it's not.
The Lovely Boehner
So you seriously think an ex-husband or ex-boyfriend would not be 100% responsible for a rape? Violent people and rapists don't wear big glowing signs that identify them as such (despite what hilarious Mr. Show sketches would lead you to believe). It's completely absurd to think that once someone sleeps with someone, they lose all ability to tell them no ever again without being blamed. That's fucking terrible.Key quote:
"Almost three quarters of the women who believed this said if a victim got into bed with the assailant before an attack they should accept some responsibility."
Some, not all.
And yes, if you put yourself into a bad situation, you do accept some responsibility for it.
And re: the article, women are not somehow exempt from being misogynists by a long shot. A lady I worked with was one of the worst people I've ever been around as far as saying "women shouldn't be leaders, I can't work for a female boss, they're all too emotional and they hate me since I'm prettier than them" and "women should never run for president, they'd launch a nuke every 4 weeks hahahahha". It's just as repugnant coming out of her mouth as any guy. And every time I would do some sort of slight double-take at what she said, she'd assure me "no, it's okay, I can say that, I'm a woman." No, it's not.
#9
GasBandit
GasBandit
So what you're saying is that because someone has previously had sex with a woman, he's now completely incapable of misinterpreting mixed signals sent from his one-time lover, and thus must be held 100% accountable for rape when his ex-girlfriend gets drunk with him and they end up in bed once more?So you seriously think an ex-husband or ex-boyfriend would not be 100% responsible for a rape?
#10
Kitty Sinatra
Kitty Sinatra
I thought that question was referring to an attack that occurs within minutes after a woman gets into bed with the attacker, not anytime in the future afterwards.
#11
The Lovely Boehner
I'm not gonna get into when someone's too drunk to give consent. I honestly don't have a super firm opinion on that. I'm mainly talking about rape cases where the girl clearly says "No" beforehand or when the guy drugs her by slipping her something that she doesn't ask for or know about. In those sort of cases, yes, the one-time lover would be 100% accountable.
The Lovely Boehner
So what you're saying is that because someone has previously had sex with a woman, he's now completely incapable of misinterpreting mixed signals sent from his one-time lover, and thus must be held 100% accountable for rape when his ex-girlfriend gets drunk with him and they end up in bed once more?[/QUOTE]So you seriously think an ex-husband or ex-boyfriend would not be 100% responsible for a rape?
I'm not gonna get into when someone's too drunk to give consent. I honestly don't have a super firm opinion on that. I'm mainly talking about rape cases where the girl clearly says "No" beforehand or when the guy drugs her by slipping her something that she doesn't ask for or know about. In those sort of cases, yes, the one-time lover would be 100% accountable.
#12
Chibibar
well... it is not all black and white.
Scenario A.
A guy and a girl dated and slept together with consent. Later she didn't think they are a good match move too fast and decides to slow down, the guy is pissed and she broke up with him. Later he broke into her home and rape her. How can she be accountable? The guy is 100% at fault.
Scenario B.
A guy and a girl dated and slept together with consent. Later, event (another encounter) he was being extra rough with her cause he likes it that way but she didn't. He overpower her and continues. This is less than 100% guy's fault. I would say 40/60
Scenario C.
A guy and a girl dated. The girl dress all sexy cause she want to impress him. He think she wanted to sleep with him and pursue it, she refuse, he attacks. this is a 50/50 deal since she did dress "sexy" for him to begin with. (IMO)
There are different type of scenarios where a guy could be 10% to 100% at fault.
Chibibar
So what you're saying is that because someone has previously had sex with a woman, he's now completely incapable of misinterpreting mixed signals sent from his one-time lover, and thus must be held 100% accountable for rape when his ex-girlfriend gets drunk with him and they end up in bed once more?[/QUOTE]So you seriously think an ex-husband or ex-boyfriend would not be 100% responsible for a rape?
well... it is not all black and white.
Scenario A.
A guy and a girl dated and slept together with consent. Later she didn't think they are a good match move too fast and decides to slow down, the guy is pissed and she broke up with him. Later he broke into her home and rape her. How can she be accountable? The guy is 100% at fault.
Scenario B.
A guy and a girl dated and slept together with consent. Later, event (another encounter) he was being extra rough with her cause he likes it that way but she didn't. He overpower her and continues. This is less than 100% guy's fault. I would say 40/60
Scenario C.
A guy and a girl dated. The girl dress all sexy cause she want to impress him. He think she wanted to sleep with him and pursue it, she refuse, he attacks. this is a 50/50 deal since she did dress "sexy" for him to begin with. (IMO)
There are different type of scenarios where a guy could be 10% to 100% at fault.
#13
Adammon
[/QUOTE]
A woman has the right to say 'no' at any time and rape is a terrible crime that deserves to be punished.
However, if a drunk woman goes home with a drunk man, goes up to bed and then changes her mind halfway through, she does bear some responsibility for the situation.
Most incidences of rape are by someone known to the victim, whether a husband or a steady dating partner. Complete strangers actually make up a very small percentage of rapists. Add in alcohol and the likelihood of misunderstanding is pretty high.
Adammon
So you seriously think an ex-husband or ex-boyfriend would not be 100% responsible for a rape? Violent people and rapists don't wear big glowing signs that identify them as such (despite what hilarious Mr. Show sketches would lead you to believe). It's completely absurd to think that once someone sleeps with someone, they lose all ability to tell them no ever again without being blamed. That's fucking terrible.Key quote:
"Almost three quarters of the women who believed this said if a victim got into bed with the assailant before an attack they should accept some responsibility."
Some, not all.
And yes, if you put yourself into a bad situation, you do accept some responsibility for it.
[/QUOTE]
A woman has the right to say 'no' at any time and rape is a terrible crime that deserves to be punished.
However, if a drunk woman goes home with a drunk man, goes up to bed and then changes her mind halfway through, she does bear some responsibility for the situation.
Most incidences of rape are by someone known to the victim, whether a husband or a steady dating partner. Complete strangers actually make up a very small percentage of rapists. Add in alcohol and the likelihood of misunderstanding is pretty high.
#14
phil
phil
As much as one person should tease and provoke someone else sexually, that other person should never decide it's ok to rape someone.
If I leave my car door open, and leave the keys in the ignition, it's still illegal for someone else to steal it. Granted, I really should not leave my car in such a state, but that other person should also just not fucking steal my car.
Women shouldn't walk down an ally alone, wearing skimpy clothes and talking loudly about how drunk they are. A man seeing that should also not fucking rape her.
If I leave my car door open, and leave the keys in the ignition, it's still illegal for someone else to steal it. Granted, I really should not leave my car in such a state, but that other person should also just not fucking steal my car.
Women shouldn't walk down an ally alone, wearing skimpy clothes and talking loudly about how drunk they are. A man seeing that should also not fucking rape her.
#15
Adammon
Adammon
The article isn't about being raped by a complete stranger out of the blue.
"Almost three quarters of the women who believed this said if a victim got into bed with the assailant before an attack they should accept some responsibility."
Seems pretty non-controversial to me.
"Almost three quarters of the women who believed this said if a victim got into bed with the assailant before an attack they should accept some responsibility."
Seems pretty non-controversial to me.
#16
Chibibar
Chibibar
hence my scenario above. All of them relate that both of them "knew" each other on some level and consent at some point.The article isn't about being raped by a complete stranger out of the blue.
"Almost three quarters of the women who believed this said if a victim got into bed with the assailant before an attack they should accept some responsibility."
Seems pretty non-controversial to me.
#17
GasBandit
GasBandit
That was eloquently stated.As much as one person should tease and provoke someone else sexually, that other person should never decide it's ok to rape someone.
If I leave my car door open, and leave the keys in the ignition, it's still illegal for someone else to steal it. Granted, I really should not leave my car in such a state, but that other person should also just not fucking steal my car.
Women shouldn't walk down an ally alone, wearing skimpy clothes and talking loudly about how drunk they are. A man seeing that should also not fucking rape her.
#18
Math242
Math242
No means no.
#19
Adammon
I didn't really agree with any of your scenarios to be honest.
---------- Post added at 07:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:28 PM ----------
Adammon
hence my scenario above. All of them relate that both of them "knew" each other on some level and consent at some point.[/QUOTE]The article isn't about being raped by a complete stranger out of the blue.
"Almost three quarters of the women who believed this said if a victim got into bed with the assailant before an attack they should accept some responsibility."
Seems pretty non-controversial to me.
I didn't really agree with any of your scenarios to be honest.
---------- Post added at 07:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:28 PM ----------
That's really not the point of the article, but okay.No means no.
#20
The Lovely Boehner
well... it is not all black and white.
Scenario A.
A guy and a girl dated and slept together with consent. Later she didn't think they are a good match move too fast and decides to slow down, the guy is pissed and she broke up with him. Later he broke into her home and rape her. How can she be accountable? The guy is 100% at fault.
Scenario B.
A guy and a girl dated and slept together with consent. Later, event (another encounter) he was being extra rough with her cause he likes it that way but she didn't. He overpower her and continues. This is less than 100% guy's fault. I would say 40/60
Scenario C.
A guy and a girl dated. The girl dress all sexy cause she want to impress him. He think she wanted to sleep with him and pursue it, she refuse, he attacks. this is a 50/50 deal since she did dress "sexy" for him to begin with. (IMO)
There are different type of scenarios where a guy could be 10% to 100% at fault.[/QUOTE]
Holy shit, these are absolutely terrible views to have. A woman can walk down the street completely naked and have the right to not get raped. If at any point someone says "no, stop", that is the end of consent. Do you realize what you're saying in Scenario B? You're saying that if a guy and a girl start making out, he automatically has some sort of right to do whatever he wants with her body.
edit: . Any sort of sexual assault charge ruins someone's life. It's completely abhorrent for someone to get accused of rape after a drunken one night stand the girl regrets a couple days later. Also, things like that do huge damage in undermining when actual sexual assaults occur. I imagine they also help foster horrible points of view like Chibi's.
The Lovely Boehner
So what you're saying is that because someone has previously had sex with a woman, he's now completely incapable of misinterpreting mixed signals sent from his one-time lover, and thus must be held 100% accountable for rape when his ex-girlfriend gets drunk with him and they end up in bed once more?[/QUOTE]So you seriously think an ex-husband or ex-boyfriend would not be 100% responsible for a rape?
well... it is not all black and white.
Scenario A.
A guy and a girl dated and slept together with consent. Later she didn't think they are a good match move too fast and decides to slow down, the guy is pissed and she broke up with him. Later he broke into her home and rape her. How can she be accountable? The guy is 100% at fault.
Scenario B.
A guy and a girl dated and slept together with consent. Later, event (another encounter) he was being extra rough with her cause he likes it that way but she didn't. He overpower her and continues. This is less than 100% guy's fault. I would say 40/60
Scenario C.
A guy and a girl dated. The girl dress all sexy cause she want to impress him. He think she wanted to sleep with him and pursue it, she refuse, he attacks. this is a 50/50 deal since she did dress "sexy" for him to begin with. (IMO)
There are different type of scenarios where a guy could be 10% to 100% at fault.[/QUOTE]
Holy shit, these are absolutely terrible views to have. A woman can walk down the street completely naked and have the right to not get raped. If at any point someone says "no, stop", that is the end of consent. Do you realize what you're saying in Scenario B? You're saying that if a guy and a girl start making out, he automatically has some sort of right to do whatever he wants with her body.
Being drunk is not really an excuse if the victim clearly says some form of "no, stop, I don't want to do this". If you get drunk and misunderstand how to drive a car, you're still 100% guilty! Or any other crime. If the girl in question changes her mind halfway through and says no after things have happened, even a drunk person has to stop, or be guilty.A woman has the right to say 'no' at any time and rape is a terrible crime that deserves to be punished.
However, if a drunk woman goes home with a drunk man, goes up to bed and then changes her mind halfway through, she does bear some responsibility for the situation.
Most incidences of rape are by someone known to the victim, whether a husband or a steady dating partner. Complete strangers actually make up a very small percentage of rapists. Add in alcohol and the likelihood of misunderstanding is pretty high.
edit: . Any sort of sexual assault charge ruins someone's life. It's completely abhorrent for someone to get accused of rape after a drunken one night stand the girl regrets a couple days later. Also, things like that do huge damage in undermining when actual sexual assaults occur. I imagine they also help foster horrible points of view like Chibi's.
#22
Adammon
Adammon
There are different charges for drinking and driving and hurting someone versus intentionally running someone down. My cousin just killed 2 people last weekend in a drinking and driving-related accident. He's going to jail, but not the same amount as if he had run them down purposefully.If you get drunk and misunderstand how to drive a car, you're still 100% guilty!
#23
phil
phil
damn this thread moved quickly.
What I was trying to get at was more the idea that the idea of assigned percent values as to who's fault it is that someone got raped is ridiculous because in the end it was still someone's decision to rape someone else.
That's true.The article isn't about being raped by a complete stranger out of the blue.
"Almost three quarters of the women who believed this said if a victim got into bed with the assailant before an attack they should accept some responsibility."
Seems pretty non-controversial to me.
What I was trying to get at was more the idea that the idea of assigned percent values as to who's fault it is that someone got raped is ridiculous because in the end it was still someone's decision to rape someone else.
#24
Troll
And do you think that any of the blame should fall on the people he hit with his car, because they were driving in the wrong place at the wrong time? Or were they driving in a provocative manner?
Troll
There are different charges for drinking and driving and hurting someone versus intentionally running someone down. My cousin just killed 2 people last weekend in a drinking and driving-related accident. He's going to jail, but not the same amount as if he had run them down purposefully.[/QUOTE]If you get drunk and misunderstand how to drive a car, you're still 100% guilty!
And do you think that any of the blame should fall on the people he hit with his car, because they were driving in the wrong place at the wrong time? Or were they driving in a provocative manner?
#25
Chibibar
Chibibar
Lovely Boner: I am not saying the woman CAN'T say no, but it does not absolve her from all "guilt" of the situation. If she said no to begin with she wouldn't be IN the situation. Yes a man and a woman does have a right to say no, but not all human are perfect and well.... there are scums too in all society, while the person committing the act (rape) the person could have said no or avoid the situation.
#26
Adammon
And do you think that any of the blame should fall on the people he hit with his car, because they were driving in the wrong place at the wrong time? Or were they driving in a provocative manner?[/QUOTE]
Not worth responding to this kind of stupidity other than to point it out for everyone else to laugh at.
Adammon
There are different charges for drinking and driving and hurting someone versus intentionally running someone down. My cousin just killed 2 people last weekend in a drinking and driving-related accident. He's going to jail, but not the same amount as if he had run them down purposefully.[/QUOTE]If you get drunk and misunderstand how to drive a car, you're still 100% guilty!
And do you think that any of the blame should fall on the people he hit with his car, because they were driving in the wrong place at the wrong time? Or were they driving in a provocative manner?[/QUOTE]
Not worth responding to this kind of stupidity other than to point it out for everyone else to laugh at.
#27
The Lovely Boehner
adammon - There is no such thing as rapeslaughter since it's COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE to accidentally rape someone!
The Lovely Boehner
If the woman never says no, then there isn't a rape at all! If she says no, she's not guilty if someone forces her to have sex afterwards. 0%. No matter what.Lovely Boner: I am not saying the woman CAN'T say no, but it does not absolve her from all "guilt" of the situation. If she said no to begin with she wouldn't be IN the situation. Yes a man and a woman does have a right to say no, but not all human are perfect and well.... there are scums too in all society, while the person committing the act (rape) the person could have said no or avoid the situation.
adammon - There is no such thing as rapeslaughter since it's COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE to accidentally rape someone!
#28
Kitty Sinatra
Kitty Sinatra
Adammon, I was hoping you'd just say "yes"
#29
GasBandit
GasBandit
Well, it is IMPROBABLE... and would require some highly coincidental breaking of floors and ceilings, or maybe a bannister.adammon - There is no such thing as rapeslaughter since it's COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE to accidentally rape someone!
#30
Troll
And do you think that any of the blame should fall on the people he hit with his car, because they were driving in the wrong place at the wrong time? Or were they driving in a provocative manner?[/QUOTE]
Not worth responding to this kind of stupidity other than to point it out for everyone else to laugh at.[/QUOTE]
Well I was trying to point out how stupid comparing drunk driving and rape is, but apparently that concept is too complex for you. I'll just say it directly then: I can't think of another violent crime where the victims are routinely blamed. When someone is mugged, people don't say that he/she should not have been out that night or walking in that area. They say that mugging is a crime, and no one should be mugged regardless of where they go. When someone is assaulted, say in a domestic abuse case, people don't tell the victim that it's their fault for marrying the wrong man/woman. When someone is gunned down at work by an angry coworker, no one blames the victim saying they should have been nicer or not show up to work. Yet women get blamed for being raped all the time, and I find that both disgusting and outrageous. No matter what someone does, how they dress, or who they invite over for drinks, they should not be raped. It's not their fault at all.
Oh, and as for the retarded strawman "But what if she was drunk that night, and they next say she calls the police because she didn't mean to have sex!" scenario people are tossing about, that's not the point. That is such a rare case it's not worth discussing. Regret is not the same thing as rape, and people know that.
How's that Adammon? Easier to understand?
Troll
There are different charges for drinking and driving and hurting someone versus intentionally running someone down. My cousin just killed 2 people last weekend in a drinking and driving-related accident. He's going to jail, but not the same amount as if he had run them down purposefully.[/QUOTE]If you get drunk and misunderstand how to drive a car, you're still 100% guilty!
And do you think that any of the blame should fall on the people he hit with his car, because they were driving in the wrong place at the wrong time? Or were they driving in a provocative manner?[/QUOTE]
Not worth responding to this kind of stupidity other than to point it out for everyone else to laugh at.[/QUOTE]
Well I was trying to point out how stupid comparing drunk driving and rape is, but apparently that concept is too complex for you. I'll just say it directly then: I can't think of another violent crime where the victims are routinely blamed. When someone is mugged, people don't say that he/she should not have been out that night or walking in that area. They say that mugging is a crime, and no one should be mugged regardless of where they go. When someone is assaulted, say in a domestic abuse case, people don't tell the victim that it's their fault for marrying the wrong man/woman. When someone is gunned down at work by an angry coworker, no one blames the victim saying they should have been nicer or not show up to work. Yet women get blamed for being raped all the time, and I find that both disgusting and outrageous. No matter what someone does, how they dress, or who they invite over for drinks, they should not be raped. It's not their fault at all.
Oh, and as for the retarded strawman "But what if she was drunk that night, and they next say she calls the police because she didn't mean to have sex!" scenario people are tossing about, that's not the point. That is such a rare case it's not worth discussing. Regret is not the same thing as rape, and people know that.
How's that Adammon? Easier to understand?
#31
Adammon
Adammon
It is the point of the article we're discussing. I guess I was smart enough to catch that while you were writing stupid analogies.Oh, and as for the retarded strawman "But what if she was drunk that night, and they next say she calls the police because she didn't mean to have sex!" scenario people are tossing about, that's not the point.
#32
Chibibar
I have to agree with Adammon. that is the whole point of the article. People put themselves into these situation (getting drunk) and may end up in rape situation (too drunk to say no, no inhibition, etc etc really wanted it while drunk, but regret in the morning) that is where the partial blame lies. Why get yourself drunk to that level and go home with someone else? why not have a designated driver? why not ensure you get home safely? etc etc.
Chibibar
It is the point of the article we're discussing. I guess I was smart enough to catch that while you were writing stupid analogies.[/QUOTE]Oh, and as for the retarded strawman "But what if she was drunk that night, and they next say she calls the police because she didn't mean to have sex!" scenario people are tossing about, that's not the point.
I have to agree with Adammon. that is the whole point of the article. People put themselves into these situation (getting drunk) and may end up in rape situation (too drunk to say no, no inhibition, etc etc really wanted it while drunk, but regret in the morning) that is where the partial blame lies. Why get yourself drunk to that level and go home with someone else? why not have a designated driver? why not ensure you get home safely? etc etc.
#33
Chazwozel
adammon - There is no such thing as rapeslaughter since it's COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE to accidentally rape someone![/QUOTE]
Whoops my dick slipped into your vag. Mind if I take a few pumps?
Chazwozel
If the woman never says no, then there isn't a rape at all! If she says no, she's not guilty if someone forces her to have sex afterwards. 0%. No matter what.Lovely Boner: I am not saying the woman CAN'T say no, but it does not absolve her from all "guilt" of the situation. If she said no to begin with she wouldn't be IN the situation. Yes a man and a woman does have a right to say no, but not all human are perfect and well.... there are scums too in all society, while the person committing the act (rape) the person could have said no or avoid the situation.
adammon - There is no such thing as rapeslaughter since it's COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE to accidentally rape someone![/QUOTE]
Whoops my dick slipped into your vag. Mind if I take a few pumps?
#34
@Li3n
@Li3n
People, rapists are not crocodiles, sure, you might call them stupid, but saying they're partly responsible is retarded. Unless you think all men are rapists, then i could see it...
You know, "They". "THEY". "They" are always saying stuff. It's just what "they" do. But seriously, this is gonna be a fun topic I'm sure. Can't wait to lock this one up. :sneaky:[/QUOTE]
Hehe, Yeah, I'll be keeping an eye on it for funsies. I should have used a smiley to show I was being silly. I tend to seem overly serious with my House avatar.[/QUOTE]
In this case THEY would be one H.L. Mencken... he's got a bunch of good ones.
Who are "they"? Misogynists?[/QUOTE]They say a misogynist is someone who holds the same opinion of women that other women do...
You know, "They". "THEY". "They" are always saying stuff. It's just what "they" do. But seriously, this is gonna be a fun topic I'm sure. Can't wait to lock this one up. :sneaky:[/QUOTE]
Hehe, Yeah, I'll be keeping an eye on it for funsies. I should have used a smiley to show I was being silly. I tend to seem overly serious with my House avatar.[/QUOTE]
In this case THEY would be one H.L. Mencken... he's got a bunch of good ones.
#35
Norris
And the fact that she's drunk doesn't make it ok to rape her. "Harble warble *vomits* Woooo!" doesn't mean she gave INFORMED consent. Additionally: if you convince a drunk girl that you are Brad Pitt, have sex with her, and she wakes up to find you're not - thats rape too. People have to KNOW exactly what they are consenting in order to consent.
Norris
It is the point of the article we're discussing. I guess I was smart enough to catch that while you were writing stupid analogies.[/QUOTE]Actually, no its not. The only drunkenness mentioned int the article is about whether or not the respondents to the poll had ever been so drunk they didn't remember what happened the night before.Oh, and as for the retarded strawman "But what if she was drunk that night, and they next say she calls the police because she didn't mean to have sex!" scenario people are tossing about, that's not the point.
And the fact that she's drunk doesn't make it ok to rape her. "Harble warble *vomits* Woooo!" doesn't mean she gave INFORMED consent. Additionally: if you convince a drunk girl that you are Brad Pitt, have sex with her, and she wakes up to find you're not - thats rape too. People have to KNOW exactly what they are consenting in order to consent.
#36
Espy
Espy
There is a difference between being guilty of rape and being guilty of putting yourself in a bad situation (that may or may not lead to an attack). However, when it happens to a woman you don't tell her she may have brought this on herself by having done thing a,b,c,d, etc. Maybe during therapy someone can say, how can we avoid this in the future, etc, but it's not really helpful when someone is attacked.
#37
ElJuski
ElJuski
Totally with boner on this one. She says "no" it's time for you to stop or be a rapist. If she doesn't say "no", then it's not rape. If she says "yes", well then, lucky guy, let's hope you don't have whiskey dick.
---------- Post added at 04:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:46 AM ----------
Also, the whole "Shouldn't be wearing provocative clothing" is such a bullshit argument that hinges on a society which gives exception to misanthropy in the case of stupidity. How about, instead of blaming the girl dressing sexy, you just don't fucking act like an asshole?
---------- Post added at 04:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:46 AM ----------
Also, the whole "Shouldn't be wearing provocative clothing" is such a bullshit argument that hinges on a society which gives exception to misanthropy in the case of stupidity. How about, instead of blaming the girl dressing sexy, you just don't fucking act like an asshole?
#38
Kitty Sinatra
Kitty Sinatra
If I'm walking though a shitty neighbourhood, dressed well and drunk then turn down a dark alley after mouthing off to some punks, I'd be blaming my stupid decisions for getting my ass beat.
#39
ElJuski
ElJuski
Provoking someone angrily and being attractive are two completely different things.
---------- Post added at 05:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:03 AM ----------
Women should steer clear of the "rape" neighborhood though, yes.
---------- Post added at 05:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:03 AM ----------
Women should steer clear of the "rape" neighborhood though, yes.
#40
Espy
Espy
It's a pretty crappy neighborhood but rent is cheap.Women should steer clear of the "rape" neighborhood though, yes.
#41
Kitty Sinatra
Kitty Sinatra
I don't know about that. Fabio really pisses me off.Provoking someone angrily and being attractive are two completely different things.
#42
ElJuski
ElJuski
wakka wakka.
#43
@Li3n
But what if i convince her i'm Brad Pitt while she's not drunk?! What then?
@Li3n
Well sure, if she was shouting at people "Come and rape me, i dare you limpd*ck!" I could see it...If I'm walking though a shitty neighbourhood, dressed well and drunk then turn down a dark alley after mouthing off to some punks, I'd be blaming my stupid decisions for getting my ass beat.
So what you're saying is don't be there when she wakes up... got it.Additionally: if you convince a drunk girl that you are Brad Pitt, have sex with her, and she wakes up to find you're not - thats rape too. People have to KNOW exactly what they are consenting in order to consent.
But what if i convince her i'm Brad Pitt while she's not drunk?! What then?
#44
Iaculus
But what if i convince her i'm Brad Pitt while she's not drunk?! What then?[/QUOTE]
Well, you'd best just hope Angelina doesn't find out.
Iaculus
So what you're saying is don't be there when she wakes up... got it.Additionally: if you convince a drunk girl that you are Brad Pitt, have sex with her, and she wakes up to find you're not - thats rape too. People have to KNOW exactly what they are consenting in order to consent.
But what if i convince her i'm Brad Pitt while she's not drunk?! What then?[/QUOTE]
Well, you'd best just hope Angelina doesn't find out.
#45
@Li3n
@Li3n
Oh no, i found it much easier to convince her i'm Billy Bob...Well, you'd best just hope Angelina doesn't find out.
#46
Cajungal
Cajungal
Skimmed through this thread, pretty sure I'm the first woman to post.
These results--I want to say they surprise me, but then they kind of don't. And that saddens me. There's no "forgiving" a rape victim, because there's nothing to forgive. It's a cruel and stupid attitude to take towards a rape victim to pin the blame on them. Anything that happens before a woman says "no" and is then taken advantage of doesn't matter. What matters is that someone didn't listen, and whoever's too dumb to ignore "no" in this day and age is the one who's unworthy of forgiveness.
These results--I want to say they surprise me, but then they kind of don't. And that saddens me. There's no "forgiving" a rape victim, because there's nothing to forgive. It's a cruel and stupid attitude to take towards a rape victim to pin the blame on them. Anything that happens before a woman says "no" and is then taken advantage of doesn't matter. What matters is that someone didn't listen, and whoever's too dumb to ignore "no" in this day and age is the one who's unworthy of forgiveness.
#47
Chazwozel
And the fact that she's drunk doesn't make it ok to rape her. "Harble warble *vomits* Woooo!" doesn't mean she gave INFORMED consent. Additionally: if you convince a drunk girl that you are Brad Pitt, have sex with her, and she wakes up to find you're not - thats rape too. People have to KNOW exactly what they are consenting in order to consent.[/QUOTE]
I thought it was pretty common knowledge that taking advantage of drunk chicks is a big no no in the "Man Rulebook"?
Chazwozel
It is the point of the article we're discussing. I guess I was smart enough to catch that while you were writing stupid analogies.[/QUOTE]Actually, no its not. The only drunkenness mentioned int the article is about whether or not the respondents to the poll had ever been so drunk they didn't remember what happened the night before.Oh, and as for the retarded strawman "But what if she was drunk that night, and they next say she calls the police because she didn't mean to have sex!" scenario people are tossing about, that's not the point.
And the fact that she's drunk doesn't make it ok to rape her. "Harble warble *vomits* Woooo!" doesn't mean she gave INFORMED consent. Additionally: if you convince a drunk girl that you are Brad Pitt, have sex with her, and she wakes up to find you're not - thats rape too. People have to KNOW exactly what they are consenting in order to consent.[/QUOTE]
I thought it was pretty common knowledge that taking advantage of drunk chicks is a big no no in the "Man Rulebook"?
#48
D
Dubyamn
And no if you lie to a woman to get her in the sack it's not rape, it's you being a complete and total sleaze.
D
Dubyamn
Informed consent? We aren't running a double blind research study here we're fucking.]Actually, no its not. The only drunkenness mentioned int the article is about whether or not the respondents to the poll had ever been so drunk they didn't remember what happened the night before.
And the fact that she's drunk doesn't make it ok to rape her. "Harble warble *vomits* Woooo!" doesn't mean she gave INFORMED consent. Additionally: if you convince a drunk girl that you are Brad Pitt, have sex with her, and she wakes up to find you're not - thats rape too. People have to KNOW exactly what they are consenting in order to consent.
And no if you lie to a woman to get her in the sack it's not rape, it's you being a complete and total sleaze.
#49
makare
makare
Yeah, this one doctor in the 70's told some of his female patients that they had a disease or disorder but he was naturally immune so they could be cured by having sex with him. (remember being a moron is not a crime) the women had sex with him and found out that he was lying. He couldn't be charged with rape because the women had consented to the sex even if it was under false pretenses.
#50
figmentPez
figmentPez
What happens if we take gender and sex out of the equation?
Say a Person A, Alex, attempts to intentionally provoke Person B, Bryce, to violence. Alex taunts Bryce repeatedly with insults to intelligence, heritage, appearance, etc and invades Bryce's space as well, getting nose to nose but not actually touching. Alex continues this until Bryce snaps and throws a punch. Does Alex bear no responsibility in the assault? Even if, legally, Bryce is the only one who can be charged with any crime, why should we overlook that Alex was an instigator just because Alex is also a victim? Personally I think it's absurd to take the attitude that victims are automatically blameless because their attackers are without excuse. It doesn't matter if Bryce threw one punch or dozens, Alex was wrong to try and provoke an attack if s/he didn't want to get hit. Bryce is guilty of assault, period, but Alex is still a jerk.
Fault isn't a matter of percentages. If two people cut holes in the hull of a ship, and each hole is big enough to sink the craft, there's no splitting the blame for the ship going down, even if one hole was bigger than the other. Not that this is analogous to a rape case, but my point is that a rapist can be 100% responsible for his/her actions, even if the victim is responsible for whatever they did wrong.
Say a Person A, Alex, attempts to intentionally provoke Person B, Bryce, to violence. Alex taunts Bryce repeatedly with insults to intelligence, heritage, appearance, etc and invades Bryce's space as well, getting nose to nose but not actually touching. Alex continues this until Bryce snaps and throws a punch. Does Alex bear no responsibility in the assault? Even if, legally, Bryce is the only one who can be charged with any crime, why should we overlook that Alex was an instigator just because Alex is also a victim? Personally I think it's absurd to take the attitude that victims are automatically blameless because their attackers are without excuse. It doesn't matter if Bryce threw one punch or dozens, Alex was wrong to try and provoke an attack if s/he didn't want to get hit. Bryce is guilty of assault, period, but Alex is still a jerk.
Fault isn't a matter of percentages. If two people cut holes in the hull of a ship, and each hole is big enough to sink the craft, there's no splitting the blame for the ship going down, even if one hole was bigger than the other. Not that this is analogous to a rape case, but my point is that a rapist can be 100% responsible for his/her actions, even if the victim is responsible for whatever they did wrong.
#51
Adammon
But alas, I think that book is out of print.
Adammon
I'd like to cram that rulebook down a certain persons throat til they shit out Chapter 6.I thought it was pretty common knowledge that taking advantage of drunk chicks is a big no no in the "Man Rulebook"?
But alas, I think that book is out of print.
#52
sixpackshaker
sixpackshaker
The article reminds me of the alleged rape case involving Kobe Bryant and a few similar cases other famous people. Where the victim goes alone to a man's room very late at night to 'party.' To me a woman should not put herself in that situation, if she does not want to fuck said super star/politician/sleaze... He's asking you up to the room to fuck. Please don't be so naive.
Of course the man should not be a rapist.
Of course the man should not be a rapist.
#53
Chazwozel
---------- Post added at 01:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:54 PM ----------
In those cases a lot of the time the women do give full consent to sex and they later try to extort said athlete for money, which is illegal. They're hardly naive, most times. Now, of course, there are exceptions, such as Mike Tyson, who did in fact rape someone.
Chazwozel
So did he win the Nobel prize in medicine for that year? Duping someone into sex isn't rape. It's not taking advantage of someone who normally would be at the capacity to say 'no'. It's taking advantage of a moron. I take advantage of stupid people to the fullest each and everyday.Yeah, this one doctor in the 70's told some of his female patients that they had a disease or disorder but he was naturally immune so they could be cured by having sex with him. (remember being a moron is not a crime) the women had sex with him and found out that he was lying. He couldn't be charged with rape because the women had consented to the sex even if it was under false pretenses.
---------- Post added at 01:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:54 PM ----------
The article reminds me of the alleged rape case involving Kobe Bryant and a few similar cases other famous people. Where the victim goes alone to a man's room very late at night to 'party.' To me a woman should not put herself in that situation, if she does not want to fuck said super star/politician/sleaze... He's asking you up to the room to fuck. Please don't be so naive.
Of course the man should not be a rapist.
In those cases a lot of the time the women do give full consent to sex and they later try to extort said athlete for money, which is illegal. They're hardly naive, most times. Now, of course, there are exceptions, such as Mike Tyson, who did in fact rape someone.
#54
makare
makare
Yeah the fact that he didn't commit rape because those chicks were morons was pretty much the point of my entire post.
#55
Chazwozel
I was agreeing with you.
Chazwozel
Yeah the fact that he didn't commit rape because those chicks were morons was pretty much the point of my entire post.
I was agreeing with you.
#56
Kitty Sinatra
Kitty Sinatra
It didn't really come across that way.
#57
makare
makare
It doesn't really matter. The point is that it's hard to sympathize with someone who is too dumb to think things through. Master con-men and a few choice situations aside, people need to be responsible for their own stupid choices. As long as they were free to make both that stupid decision and another not stupid decision.
#58
D
Dubyamn
I was agreeing with you.[/QUOTE]
Asking if he won the Nobel prize seemed a little sarcastic. It took a few reads to get down what you were saying.
D
Dubyamn
Yeah the fact that he didn't commit rape because those chicks were morons was pretty much the point of my entire post.
I was agreeing with you.[/QUOTE]
Asking if he won the Nobel prize seemed a little sarcastic. It took a few reads to get down what you were saying.
#59
Chibibar
Chibibar
I think that is what the article is trying to say. Dressing very provocative and "taunting" men could lead them into these situation. Going to a drinking/drug party without a buddy/designated driver/ etc etc is taking a chance of being taken advantage when you are in those state. I think that where part of the blame comes into play. If a girl don't go on a drinking bing, drug party, go up to someone's room, and stuff like that there is a good chance of sex. There are VERY rare cases where going to someone's room after a date doesn't result in sex.It doesn't really matter. The point is that it's hard to sympathize with someone who is too dumb to think things through. Master con-men and a few choice situations aside, people need to be responsible for their own stupid choices. As long as they were free to make both that stupid decision and another not stupid decision.
#60
Chazwozel
Uh, no, see I agree with Charlie on this. A woman can show up to a party in a bra and thong; that doesn't give anyone the right to have sex with her unless she agees to it.
---------- Post added at 04:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:36 PM ----------
I was agreeing with you.[/QUOTE]
Asking if he won the Nobel prize seemed a little sarcastic. It took a few reads to get down what you were saying.[/QUOTE]
I was just embellishing on her original statement.
Chazwozel
I think that is what the article is trying to say. Dressing very provocative and "taunting" men could lead them into these situation. Going to a drinking/drug party without a buddy/designated driver/ etc etc is taking a chance of being taken advantage when you are in those state. I think that where part of the blame comes into play. If a girl don't go on a drinking bing, drug party, go up to someone's room, and stuff like that there is a good chance of sex. There are VERY rare cases where going to someone's room after a date doesn't result in sex.[/QUOTE]It doesn't really matter. The point is that it's hard to sympathize with someone who is too dumb to think things through. Master con-men and a few choice situations aside, people need to be responsible for their own stupid choices. As long as they were free to make both that stupid decision and another not stupid decision.
Uh, no, see I agree with Charlie on this. A woman can show up to a party in a bra and thong; that doesn't give anyone the right to have sex with her unless she agees to it.
---------- Post added at 04:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:36 PM ----------
Yeah the fact that he didn't commit rape because those chicks were morons was pretty much the point of my entire post.
I was agreeing with you.[/QUOTE]
Asking if he won the Nobel prize seemed a little sarcastic. It took a few reads to get down what you were saying.[/QUOTE]
I was just embellishing on her original statement.
#61
The Lovely Boehner
The Lovely Boehner
I have to say I'm pretty pleased that only Chibi seems to be interested in blaming rape victims
#62
Chibibar
Is it my fault? yes it was. It is partly my fault for going to a party without buddy to lookout for me. It is my fault to drink. It is my fault NOT monitor my cup before it was spiked. I never gave consent so to me it was rape.
Chibibar
Yea. having experience of being raped, yes. I believe that I could have avoided the whole situation if I didn't go to this one party which I rarely knew anyone. It was a party that some acquaintance invited me and I went. I drank a little and was drugged pretty much taken advantage. It was my first and didn't know who it was.I have to say I'm pretty pleased that only Chibi seems to be interested in blaming rape victims
Is it my fault? yes it was. It is partly my fault for going to a party without buddy to lookout for me. It is my fault to drink. It is my fault NOT monitor my cup before it was spiked. I never gave consent so to me it was rape.
#63
Dave
Dave
Not to belittle you, Chibi, but the victims usually feel guilty. Going by what you said, YOU did nothing wrong and were not to blame AT ALL. If someone spiked your drink then that's up to them and not you.
#64
Chibibar
I guess what I'm trying to say that if a person dress all sexy, go out on a drinking binge, drugs, and with consent go with random guys/gal to their room/apt/hotel. Then be prepare for the consequences. Sure, you can always say "no" but the other person may not listen. Legally, I am not at fault for my situation, but (at least to me) it is partly my fault and that is where my stances come into play.
Yea Dave, it could be guilt, but it is also a learning tool. On the other hand, I think it is unfair to "shun" the victim also. As a male victim, I didn't get shun like some of my female friends who suffer what they call "date rape". It is kinda hard for me to find the right word to explain it. On one hand, a person can be blame for the situation that could have been avoid, while the other hand, the act and result of it could destroy a person's life/reputation and society doesn't forgive them. I am not saying that the rapist should get off scott free or have reduce sentence (heck no!) but depending on situation (present in the article like date rape) the victim should have taken care of the situation they are in and avoid being victim in the first place.
Chibibar
True, but the situation could have been avoided. I don't think much about it now since it is all past and became more careful person. I don't go to random parties (not after that one) and drink much at all (I'm totally light weight) so I keep myself safe and hang out where these situation don't arise.Not to belittle you, Chibi, but the victims usually feel guilty. Going by what you said, YOU did nothing wrong and were not to blame AT ALL. If someone spiked your drink then that's up to them and not you.
I guess what I'm trying to say that if a person dress all sexy, go out on a drinking binge, drugs, and with consent go with random guys/gal to their room/apt/hotel. Then be prepare for the consequences. Sure, you can always say "no" but the other person may not listen. Legally, I am not at fault for my situation, but (at least to me) it is partly my fault and that is where my stances come into play.
Yea Dave, it could be guilt, but it is also a learning tool. On the other hand, I think it is unfair to "shun" the victim also. As a male victim, I didn't get shun like some of my female friends who suffer what they call "date rape". It is kinda hard for me to find the right word to explain it. On one hand, a person can be blame for the situation that could have been avoid, while the other hand, the act and result of it could destroy a person's life/reputation and society doesn't forgive them. I am not saying that the rapist should get off scott free or have reduce sentence (heck no!) but depending on situation (present in the article like date rape) the victim should have taken care of the situation they are in and avoid being victim in the first place.
#65
Espy
Espy
Again, like I said before there is a difference in being responsible for putting yourself in a bad situation and being responsible for being raped. Just because someone put themselves in a bad situation does not, in ANY way make them responsible for what others do. All they are guilty of is poor judgement at worst.
#66
darkangel6988
I agree with that !
darkangel6988
Again, like I said before there is a difference in being responsible for putting yourself in a bad situation and being responsible for being raped. Just because someone put themselves in a bad situation does not, in ANY way make them responsible for what others do. All they are guilty of is poor judgement at worst.
I agree with that !
#67
The Lovely Boehner
The Lovely Boehner
Jesus christ, Chibi, I'm sorry. It was not your fault. Don't blame yourself.
edit: I hope you've been to counseling or something.
edit: I hope you've been to counseling or something.
#68
Chazwozel
Is it my fault? yes it was. It is partly my fault for going to a party without buddy to lookout for me. It is my fault to drink. It is my fault NOT monitor my cup before it was spiked. I never gave consent so to me it was rape.[/QUOTE]
Uh, that sucks...
Chazwozel
Yea. having experience of being raped, yes. I believe that I could have avoided the whole situation if I didn't go to this one party which I rarely knew anyone. It was a party that some acquaintance invited me and I went. I drank a little and was drugged pretty much taken advantage. It was my first and didn't know who it was.I have to say I'm pretty pleased that only Chibi seems to be interested in blaming rape victims
Is it my fault? yes it was. It is partly my fault for going to a party without buddy to lookout for me. It is my fault to drink. It is my fault NOT monitor my cup before it was spiked. I never gave consent so to me it was rape.[/QUOTE]
Uh, that sucks...
#69
bhamv3
bhamv3
Seconded, totally seconded, and agreed with everyone else too on how much that sucks. My jaw sorta dropped to the floor when I read that.Not to belittle you, Chibi, but the victims usually feel guilty. Going by what you said, YOU did nothing wrong and were not to blame AT ALL. If someone spiked your drink then that's up to them and not you.
#70
Ravenpoe
I guess what I'm trying to say that if a person dress all sexy, go out on a drinking binge, drugs, and with consent go with random guys/gal to their room/apt/hotel. Then be prepare for the consequences. Sure, you can always say "no" but the other person may not listen. Legally, I am not at fault for my situation, but (at least to me) it is partly my fault and that is where my stances come into play.
Yea Dave, it could be guilt, but it is also a learning tool. On the other hand, I think it is unfair to "shun" the victim also. As a male victim, I didn't get shun like some of my female friends who suffer what they call "date rape". It is kinda hard for me to find the right word to explain it. On one hand, a person can be blame for the situation that could have been avoid, while the other hand, the act and result of it could destroy a person's life/reputation and society doesn't forgive them. I am not saying that the rapist should get off scott free or have reduce sentence (heck no!) but depending on situation (present in the article like date rape) the victim should have taken care of the situation they are in and avoid being victim in the first place.[/QUOTE]
Chibi, man, it's not your fault. It's normal for victims to feel the way you do. It's hard to accept that you were victimized and that it was out of your control, so taking guilt in the matter makes it seem somehow better, because then it seems you can control it in the future.
But even though that's a very normal response, it's still wrong. You were not to blame for that, you have to let go of that guilt. I second charlie's response in that I hope you've talked with/are talking with someone to help you through that.
Ravenpoe
True, but the situation could have been avoided. I don't think much about it now since it is all past and became more careful person. I don't go to random parties (not after that one) and drink much at all (I'm totally light weight) so I keep myself safe and hang out where these situation don't arise.Not to belittle you, Chibi, but the victims usually feel guilty. Going by what you said, YOU did nothing wrong and were not to blame AT ALL. If someone spiked your drink then that's up to them and not you.
I guess what I'm trying to say that if a person dress all sexy, go out on a drinking binge, drugs, and with consent go with random guys/gal to their room/apt/hotel. Then be prepare for the consequences. Sure, you can always say "no" but the other person may not listen. Legally, I am not at fault for my situation, but (at least to me) it is partly my fault and that is where my stances come into play.
Yea Dave, it could be guilt, but it is also a learning tool. On the other hand, I think it is unfair to "shun" the victim also. As a male victim, I didn't get shun like some of my female friends who suffer what they call "date rape". It is kinda hard for me to find the right word to explain it. On one hand, a person can be blame for the situation that could have been avoid, while the other hand, the act and result of it could destroy a person's life/reputation and society doesn't forgive them. I am not saying that the rapist should get off scott free or have reduce sentence (heck no!) but depending on situation (present in the article like date rape) the victim should have taken care of the situation they are in and avoid being victim in the first place.[/QUOTE]
Chibi, man, it's not your fault. It's normal for victims to feel the way you do. It's hard to accept that you were victimized and that it was out of your control, so taking guilt in the matter makes it seem somehow better, because then it seems you can control it in the future.
But even though that's a very normal response, it's still wrong. You were not to blame for that, you have to let go of that guilt. I second charlie's response in that I hope you've talked with/are talking with someone to help you through that.
#71
fade
fade
What are you talking about? People say that all the time! Re: mugging, murder, robbery, you name it.Well I was trying to point out how stupid comparing drunk driving and rape is, but apparently that concept is too complex for you. I'll just say it directly then: I can't think of another violent crime where the victims are routinely blamed. When someone is mugged, people don't say that he/she should not have been out that night or walking in that area. They say that mugging is a crime, and no one should be mugged regardless of where they go. When someone is assaulted, say in a domestic abuse case, people don't tell the victim that it's their fault for marrying the wrong man/woman. When someone is gunned down at work by an angry coworker, no one blames the victim saying they should have been nicer or not show up to work. Yet women get blamed for being raped all the time, and I find that both disgusting and outrageous. No matter what someone does, how they dress, or who they invite over for drinks, they should not be raped. It's not their fault at all.
Oh, and as for the retarded strawman "But what if she was drunk that night, and they next say she calls the police because she didn't mean to have sex!" scenario people are tossing about, that's not the point. That is such a rare case it's not worth discussing. Regret is not the same thing as rape, and people know that.
How's that Adammon? Easier to understand?
#72
Cajungal
Cajungal
Part of the problem with rape when considering the "should have been careful/should have used common sense" argument is that you're more likely to be raped by someone you know and already trust (or have started to trust, at least). When you're robbed, it's probably going to be by a stranger. You wouldn't go to a friend, new boy/girlfriend, or relative's house wearing a secret money belt just in case they decide to mug you. By the same token, we don't (usually) expect people in our lives to do that kind of thing to us. Sometimes there's suspicion, but we don't want to be paranoid or insulting. But it happens, it happens, and the victim feels vulnerable and humiliated enough without hearing something as cruel and stupid as "she put herself in a bad position, she should take responsibility."
#73
Adammon
Adammon
I had to remove myself from the discussion here because of a certain ongoing situation that I'm dealing with but I will say I agree with CG, Fade, TW, etc.
#74
Cajungal
Cajungal
Oh, I wasn't trying to call you out or anything... just expanding or something. I didn't think you'd ever say that, Tin.clearly, CG, I wasn't referring to all crimes (or all rapes, or all muggings, etc).
#75
@Li3n
@Li3n
This is why i never leave my underground bunker except for supply runs... the sun, it hurts my eyes.But there are those cases where the victim (like myself) could have exercised better judgment. It doesn't excuse the crime, of course. But some behavior is riskier than others, and it is very helpful to learn recognize the risky behavior and avoid it.
#76
Chazwozel
Yeah, see, I think that's more stupid than taking risks.
Chazwozel
This is why i never leave my underground bunker except for supply runs... the sun, it hurts my eyes.[/QUOTE]But there are those cases where the victim (like myself) could have exercised better judgment. It doesn't excuse the crime, of course. But some behavior is riskier than others, and it is very helpful to learn recognize the risky behavior and avoid it.
Yeah, see, I think that's more stupid than taking risks.
#77
Iaculus
Yeah, see, I think that's more stupid than taking risks.[/QUOTE]
Well, isn't that a given? S'pretty obvious he was being sarcastic.
Iaculus
This is why i never leave my underground bunker except for supply runs... the sun, it hurts my eyes.[/QUOTE]But there are those cases where the victim (like myself) could have exercised better judgment. It doesn't excuse the crime, of course. But some behavior is riskier than others, and it is very helpful to learn recognize the risky behavior and avoid it.
Yeah, see, I think that's more stupid than taking risks.[/QUOTE]
Well, isn't that a given? S'pretty obvious he was being sarcastic.
#78
Hailey Knight
Yeah, see, I think that's more stupid than taking risks.[/QUOTE]
Well, isn't that a given? S'pretty obvious he was being sarcastic.[/QUOTE]
He's pointing out the mindset as being stupid. You can discern why.
Hailey Knight
This is why i never leave my underground bunker except for supply runs... the sun, it hurts my eyes.[/QUOTE]But there are those cases where the victim (like myself) could have exercised better judgment. It doesn't excuse the crime, of course. But some behavior is riskier than others, and it is very helpful to learn recognize the risky behavior and avoid it.
Yeah, see, I think that's more stupid than taking risks.[/QUOTE]
Well, isn't that a given? S'pretty obvious he was being sarcastic.[/QUOTE]
He's pointing out the mindset as being stupid. You can discern why.
#79
Iaculus
Yeah, see, I think that's more stupid than taking risks.[/QUOTE]
Well, isn't that a given? S'pretty obvious he was being sarcastic.[/QUOTE]
He's pointing out the mindset as being stupid. You can discern why.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but wasn't @li3n doing that too?
Iaculus
This is why i never leave my underground bunker except for supply runs... the sun, it hurts my eyes.[/QUOTE]But there are those cases where the victim (like myself) could have exercised better judgment. It doesn't excuse the crime, of course. But some behavior is riskier than others, and it is very helpful to learn recognize the risky behavior and avoid it.
Yeah, see, I think that's more stupid than taking risks.[/QUOTE]
Well, isn't that a given? S'pretty obvious he was being sarcastic.[/QUOTE]
He's pointing out the mindset as being stupid. You can discern why.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but wasn't @li3n doing that too?
#80
Hailey Knight
Yeah, see, I think that's more stupid than taking risks.[/QUOTE]
Well, isn't that a given? S'pretty obvious he was being sarcastic.[/QUOTE]
He's pointing out the mindset as being stupid. You can discern why.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but wasn't @li3n doing that too?[/QUOTE]
Yeah. He was agreeing. It was against the mindset of "if you take risks, you're responsible for someone else's choices against you." It's part of the topic we're discussing in this forum thread. On Earth.
Hailey Knight
This is why i never leave my underground bunker except for supply runs... the sun, it hurts my eyes.[/QUOTE]But there are those cases where the victim (like myself) could have exercised better judgment. It doesn't excuse the crime, of course. But some behavior is riskier than others, and it is very helpful to learn recognize the risky behavior and avoid it.
Yeah, see, I think that's more stupid than taking risks.[/QUOTE]
Well, isn't that a given? S'pretty obvious he was being sarcastic.[/QUOTE]
He's pointing out the mindset as being stupid. You can discern why.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but wasn't @li3n doing that too?[/QUOTE]
Yeah. He was agreeing. It was against the mindset of "if you take risks, you're responsible for someone else's choices against you." It's part of the topic we're discussing in this forum thread. On Earth.
#81
Iaculus
Yeah, see, I think that's more stupid than taking risks.[/QUOTE]
Well, isn't that a given? S'pretty obvious he was being sarcastic.[/QUOTE]
He's pointing out the mindset as being stupid. You can discern why.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but wasn't @li3n doing that too?[/QUOTE]
Yeah. He was agreeing. It was against the mindset of "if you take risks, you're responsible for someone else's choices against you." It's part of the topic we're discussing in this forum thread. On Earth.[/QUOTE]
Well, maybe you are. We sophisticated posters get our own orbital space stations.
Iaculus
This is why i never leave my underground bunker except for supply runs... the sun, it hurts my eyes.[/QUOTE]But there are those cases where the victim (like myself) could have exercised better judgment. It doesn't excuse the crime, of course. But some behavior is riskier than others, and it is very helpful to learn recognize the risky behavior and avoid it.
Yeah, see, I think that's more stupid than taking risks.[/QUOTE]
Well, isn't that a given? S'pretty obvious he was being sarcastic.[/QUOTE]
He's pointing out the mindset as being stupid. You can discern why.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but wasn't @li3n doing that too?[/QUOTE]
Yeah. He was agreeing. It was against the mindset of "if you take risks, you're responsible for someone else's choices against you." It's part of the topic we're discussing in this forum thread. On Earth.[/QUOTE]
Well, maybe you are. We sophisticated posters get our own orbital space stations.
#82
fade
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Geez, when did Chazwozel and @li3n get lawyers?
#83
Iaculus
Space stations ain't cheap.
Iaculus
Since they started paying.Geez, when did Chazwozel and @li3n get lawyers?
Space stations ain't cheap.
#84
@Li3n
@Li3n
It was a buy one get one free thing... couldn't resist.Geez, when did Chazwozel and @li3n get lawyers?
#85
Chazwozel
Hey hey hey, I'm paying good money for this.
Chazwozel
Geez, when did Chazwozel and @li3n get lawyers?
Hey hey hey, I'm paying good money for this.