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Would you support superheroes?

Dec 6, 2009#1

IronBrig4

I was debating on whether I should put this in the General, Media, or Politics sub-forums. But this is probably the best spot for it.

Would you support superheroes and their activities? To make it more realistic, I'm only talking about characters who get their strength from intense physical training or technology. If an engineering genius decides to build an armored suit, a disturbed billionaire elects to condition himself to physical perfection and dress up like a bat, or a vengeful war vet carries out a vendetta against organized crime, why shouldn't they be allowed to? Superheroes would clean up the streets because they can go where the police can't. He's not a superhero in the traditional sense of the word, but I'd love to have a Dexter Morgan in every major US city.

The problem, however, is what kind of standards should there be? Should they be like Batman and pretty much operate as another branch of the police? What kind of legislation would govern their actions? Another problem is it also could start down the slippery slope of vigilantism. If somebody like the Punisher turns gangbangers into bloody giblets, a wannabe hero might decide to shoot a shoplifter or jaywalker.

I suppose we could register all superheroes, and hopefully without causing a civil war within their community.

Dec 6, 2009#2

North_Ranger

For me the question is moot, as the climate is against the most basic outward sign of superheroes. Running around in sub-zero temperatures in a leotard = one very nasty case of pneumonia.

Dec 6, 2009#3

The Lovely Boehner

Anyone that kills another human being should be put in jail, not idolized.

Dec 6, 2009#4

AshburnerX

Registration would only cause problems if it was put into place many years after groups of heroes had already been operating. If you started out with registration, it really wouldn't be too much of an issue and would keep most of the really hardcore types (I.E. The Punishers of the World) out of the business. I would make psychological analysis a standard part of the registration process though... you really don't want mentally unstable people choosing who is innocent and who is guilty.

Dec 6, 2009#5

The Lovely Boehner

AshburnerX said:
you really don't want mentally unstable people choosing who is innocent and who is guilty.

and we've ruled out all "superheroes"

Dec 6, 2009#6

Silver Jelly

Superheroes have to be paralegal to work like a punisher or a batman. Part of the reason they woud be useful (and also inmensely dangerous) is that they are completely freelance*, with nobody controlling them.

That being said, I don't particularly like the idea of people going around doing "justice" (or rather, what they think it's justice).

*as IronBrig said, "Superheroes would clean up the streets because they can go where the police can't."

Dec 6, 2009#7

AshburnerX

Charlie Dont Surf;309959][quote=AshburnerX said:
you really don't want mentally unstable people choosing who is innocent and who is guilty.

and we've ruled out all "superheroes"[/QUOTE]

Pretty much, except for maybe the government sanctioned types like Nick Fury and SHIELD.

Dec 6, 2009#8

Reboneer

IronBrig4 said:
Superheroes would clean up the streets because they can go where the police can't. He's not a superhero in the traditional sense of the word, but I'd love to have a Dexter Morgan in every major US city.

What? Dexter doesn't kill other killers because he wants to "clean up the streets", he kills them because he likes killing people, and they're the least likely to be missed. Plus, he's gotten it wrong and killed an innocent man before, and got over it pretty quickly.

Dec 6, 2009#9

@Li3n

Obviously killing people etc. is out, there's a reason why due process exists, but leaving bank robbers or known criminals hanging on polls etc. (kinda like pro bono bounty hunting) would totally work imo.

Of course training and technology would also benefit the police, so unless we're talking gotham level corruption of the system keeping it to themselves would be a giant case of Reed Richards is useless!

would keep most of the really hardcore types (I.E. The Punishers of the World) out of the business

When has the Punisher ever cared about laws?!

Reboneer;309962][quote=IronBrig4 said:
Superheroes would clean up the streets because they can go where the police can't. He's not a superhero in the traditional sense of the word, but I'd love to have a Dexter Morgan in every major US city.

Anyone that kills another human being should be put in jail, not idolized.

Your countries military says hi.

Dec 6, 2009#10

The Lovely Boehner

@Li3n said:
Your countries military says hi.

I am not one of those people that calls all veterans heroes and worships the ground they walk on.

Dec 6, 2009#11

Timmus

No.

For the most part the police do fine job. They may not get results as fast as some people would like. Some of it is that policemen have rules under which they are supposed to operate under by law. A vigilante would either not be subject to the same laws the police operate under which I would find very troubling or he would be subject to them in which case he's just another police officer with some cool toys.

Dec 6, 2009#12

MindDetective

I don't think so. I don't really feel like crime is running rampant, though. A lot of crimes are committed in the heat of the moment. Batman and the Punisher don't really seem like they are geared towards domestic violence to me.

Dec 6, 2009#13

Chazwozel

Charlie Dont Surf;309965][quote=@Li3n said:
Your countries military says hi.

I am not one of those people that calls all veterans heroes and worships the ground they walk on.[/QUOTE]

Putting oneself at immediate risk for the prosperity of others doesn't make one a hero anymore? Damn.

Dec 6, 2009#14

Iaculus

A good point - if what makes these superheroes 'super' is their gadgetry, why not have 'em supply it to the local police force? Otherwise, they're just vigilantes with very dangerous toys.

Dec 6, 2009#15

@Li3n

A vigilante would either not be subject to the same laws the police operate under which I would find very troubling

I order to be a vigilante he/she'd need to take the role of judge, jury and executioner too, it's in the definition, and that is always way too dangerous without any oversight.

Charlie Dont Surf;309965][quote=@Li3n said:
Your countries military says hi.

I am not one of those people that calls all veterans heroes and worships the ground they walk on.[/quote]

No, you just want them thrown in jail...

Putting oneself at immediate risk for the prosperity of others doesn't make one a hero anymore? Damn.

Yeah, just look at all those great heroes from Abu Ghraib, they where totally torturing those people for YOU.

Dec 6, 2009#16

phil

to me it would largely depend on the additional contributions of the superhero. Beating up some criminals and leaving them outside of the police station would do jack shit except let a lot of criminals the police might have been gathering evidence against possibly go walk because they can't face their accuser or anything. How many times has spiderman just left a guy there and the only note he bothered to leave was "from your friendly neighborhood spiderman!" notice how the note never even says what the guy was doing when spiderman gave him a concussion and left him tied to a flagpole 3 stories up.

If the superhero were to make advancements to better mankind, instead of dealing with just crime issues, I'd be more likely to support them in their actions. If Tony Stark built ark reactors to solve the energy crisis, or if Batman used his detective skills on matters of a larger scale than just Gotham, then I'd be more likely to support their habit of beatin' folks up.

Registration would be kinda pointless though, seeing as the point of Batman and Iron man is that they can go places the cops/military can't and do what needs to be done. If they were regulated, they would just be supercops and have the same kind of restrictions that all branches of law enforcement have. How would Batman still be Batman if he had to get a warrant to climb into a window, or if the joker went free because Batman didn't read him his rights?

I guess I just think that with great power comes great responsibility, and so when you're dealing with a power that these heroes boast the responsibility becomes so much greater than just street crime. Often it seems like they just treat the symptoms when they need to deal with the disease itself such as poverty, hunger, and radicalism. If they dealt with the issues that can spawn crime, they could lower it on a wider scale than just nabbing a few crooks every night who probably go free anyway.

Dec 6, 2009#17

CynicismKills

I wouldn't, after all that working out they'd be very heavy.

Dec 6, 2009#18

Cajungal

I couldn't support a vigilante who killed people before they could go to trial. No one's perfect. What if they made a mistake about who was guilty? Everyone should have a fair trial. Now if a civilian helped to bring someone in, that's another story for me. But I don't think any of us are above the standards we've set. The justice system isn't perfect, but trusting some most-likely crazy person isn't the answer.

Also, CK: :rofl:

Dec 6, 2009#19

phil

CynicismKills said:
I wouldn't, after all that working out they'd be very heavy.

What about financially? Would you give 40 cents a day to help feed your friendly neighborhood spiderman?

Dec 6, 2009#20

Cajungal

Less than the price of a cup of coffee...

Dec 6, 2009#21

RocketGirl

IronBrig4 said:
Would you support superheroes and their activities? To make it more realistic, I'm only talking about characters who get their strength from intense physical training or technology.

In that case, no.

I WOULD support those with unique powers, like Superman, simply because they and only they can do what they do. But someone who trains or builds a suit of armor or whatever is nothing more than a vigilante who should join the proper authorities if they really want to do the good that they do.

Dec 6, 2009#22

HowDroll

Who watches the Watchmen?

Dec 6, 2009#23

Denbrought

Police-like activity outside of the police? Hell no. Get them into a government program so they're used like they should be, not jumping around being assholes and breaking the law for 'the greater good.'

Dec 6, 2009#24

@Li3n

Again, the definition of a vigilante is that they are judge, jury and executioner...

Oh, and the conceit behind Iron Man is that the suit would cost too much for cops, and he doesn't want the Army to use it.

Get them into a government program so they're used like they should be

Assassinating people in 3rd world countries?

Dec 6, 2009#25

Espy

Chazwozel said:
Putting oneself at immediate risk for the prosperity of others doesn't make one a hero anymore? Damn.

No, you have to have made giant stupid movies to be peoples hero's these days.

Go live in a shithole, separated from your family and life and have constant threat of death hanging over your head every time you drive your damn Humvee, have rockets shot at you, watch your buddies die around you, etc, etc and you are barely worth a thought to way to many americans, many who probably consider you a murderer anyway for serving your country and risking your life.

I'm really more curious as to what people consider "worship"? I see a lot of respect for veterans (at least from people who aren't total assholes) but I haven't seen any "worship" or alters set up.

Dec 6, 2009#26

Iaculus

@Li3n said:
Again, the definition of a vigilante is that they are judge, jury and executioner...

Oh, and the conceit behind Iron Man is that the suit would cost too much for cops, and he doesn't want the Army to use it.

Dude's the richest man on the planet, and his company's already taken a serious charitable bent. What's one more armed-to-the-teeth donation?

Dec 6, 2009#27

RocketGirl

@Li3n said:
Get them into a government program so they're used like they should be

Click to expand...

Assassinating people in 3rd world countries?

That sounds a bit limiting, dunnit?

Dec 6, 2009#28

Heavan

Charlie Dont Surf said:
Anyone that kills another human being should be put in jail, not idolized.

Wait, aren't you the guy who gets into RAGE mode the second anyone is being oppressed? Why are soldiers an acceptable target?

Dec 6, 2009#29

Denbrought

@Li3n said:
Get them into a government program so they're used like they should be

Click to expand...

Assassinating people in 3rd world countries?

If that's how you think a government should be using its special forces.

Dec 6, 2009#30

The Lovely Boehner

Heavan;310165][quote=Charlie Dont Surf said:
Anyone that kills another human being should be put in jail, not idolized.

Wait, aren't you the guy who gets into RAGE mode the second anyone is being oppressed? Why are soldiers an acceptable target?[/QUOTE]

Yes. I wholeheartedly oppress their right to kill innocents.

Dec 6, 2009#31

SpecialKO

I think the extent to which they can act matters a lot in this question.

Are we talking about a more better-trained, better-equipped version of the Guardian Angels? Or are we talking the Punisher without deliberately killing people?

Dec 6, 2009#32

Espy

Charlie Dont Surf;310170][quote=Heavan;310165][quote=Charlie Dont Surf said:
Anyone that kills another human being should be put in jail, not idolized.

aranoid: Should I turn her in?

As to the superhero thing, I think if I had to put it to a vote I would probably not support them if they were of the more extreme end, but I wouldn't freak out if there was a Batman or Spiderman saving the day I suppose.

Dec 6, 2009#33

Heavan

Charlie Dont Surf;310170][quote=Heavan;310165][quote=Charlie Dont Surf said:
Anyone that kills another human being should be put in jail, not idolized.

Wait, aren't you the guy who gets into RAGE mode the second anyone is being oppressed? Why are soldiers an acceptable target?[/QUOTE]

Yes. I wholeheartedly oppress their right to kill innocents.[/QUOTE]

So, you're in favor of foreign soldiers coming in and killing a bunch of your innocents on purpose to keep your soldiers from killing a few innocents by accident? Because there's no way other countries wouldn't attack a fantasy land pacifist utopia and conquer the hell out of it if one ever existed.

I know you don't like innocents dying, I don't either. The soldiers who do it didn't mean to, and they feel bad too.

Dec 6, 2009#34

Espy

Heavan;310180][quote=Charlie Dont Surf;310170][quote=Heavan;310165][quote=Charlie Dont Surf said:
Anyone that kills another human being should be put in jail, not idolized.

Dec 6, 2009#35

RocketGirl

Heavan said:
[snip]

Aaah!

...aaah!

YEHAT!

I adore your StarControl 2 sig! *bouncebounce*

Dec 6, 2009#36

The Lovely Boehner

I never said all soldiers kill innocents. And I'm not gonna yell at someone that believes all soldiers are heroes. That's nice if you do. Most soldiers deserve a lot of sympathy because the government is going to keep putting them into shitty situation after shitty situation.

Dec 6, 2009#37

Heavan

RocketGirl said:
I adore your StarControl 2 sig! *bouncebounce*

Everyone does! Who can resist Scottish pterodactyls?

Dec 6, 2009#38

IronBrig4

phil said:
to me it would largely depend on the additional contributions of the superhero. Beating up some criminals and leaving them outside of the police station would do jack shit except let a lot of criminals the police might have been gathering evidence against possibly go walk because they can't face their accuser or anything. How many times has spiderman just left a guy there and the only note he bothered to leave was "from your friendly neighborhood spiderman!" notice how the note never even says what the guy was doing when spiderman gave him a concussion and left him tied to a flagpole 3 stories up.

I think superheroes would be a huge deterrent, though. The crooks might have to be released because of a legal technicality, but the injuries they suffered might serve to make them think twice about pulling off another heist. I can just picture some gangbangers having second thoughts.

"Yo homes, I don't think we should knock off that liquor store tonight. We tried that last month and that crazy muthafucka in the bat outfit broke my jaw and busted up Jefe's kneecaps. Didn't do no time, but now my face hurts when it rains."

"Yeah, and did you hear about the Bloods robbing that Korean deli yesterday? They got flattened by some big black dude in a yellow disco shirt. He just yelled out 'Sweet Christmas!' and it was all over for them."

"Homies? Maybe we shouldn't live like a bunch of hoodlums. Our folks didn't come over from Puerto Rico so we could turn out like this."

"Word. Let's go work on our GED's."

Seriously, it would suck to get beaten up by Luke Cage. The guy's a walking blaxploitation stereotype who wears a HEADBAND.

Dec 6, 2009#39

The Lovely Boehner

I, too, believe that broken bones and weeks of rehab are a just punishment for felony theft.

Dec 6, 2009#40

IronBrig4

Felony theft? I'm talking about armed robbery here.

Dec 6, 2009#41

Iaculus

IronBrig4;310211][quote=phil said:
to me it would largely depend on the additional contributions of the superhero. Beating up some criminals and leaving them outside of the police station would do jack shit except let a lot of criminals the police might have been gathering evidence against possibly go walk because they can't face their accuser or anything. How many times has spiderman just left a guy there and the only note he bothered to leave was "from your friendly neighborhood spiderman!" notice how the note never even says what the guy was doing when spiderman gave him a concussion and left him tied to a flagpole 3 stories up.

Dec 6, 2009#42

AshburnerX

IronBrig4 said:
I think superheroes would be a huge deterrent, though. The crooks might have to be released because of a legal technicality, but the injuries they suffered might serve to make them think twice about pulling off another heist. I can just picture some gangbangers having second thoughts.

"Yo homes, I don't think we should knock off that liquor store tonight. We tried that last month and that crazy muthafucka in the bat outfit broke my jaw and busted up Jefe's kneecaps. Didn't do no time, but now my face hurts when it rains."

"Yeah, and did you hear about the Bloods robbing that Korean deli yesterday? They got flattened by some big black dude in a yellow disco shirt. He just yelled out 'Sweet Christmas!' and it was all over for them."

"Homies? Maybe we shouldn't live like a bunch of hoodlums. Our folks didn't come over from Puerto Rico so we could turn out like this."

"Word. Let's go work on our GED's."

Seriously, it would suck to get beaten up by Luke Cage. The guy's a walking blaxploitation stereotype who wears a HEADBAND.

If the Death Penalty can't deter people from commiting murders, getting beat up isn't gonna stop people from robbing the local Kwik-e-Mart.

Dec 6, 2009#43

IronBrig4

Let's say you read your morning paper and come across the local section. The main story is about how a group of thugs were found beaten to a pulp. Those crooks claim to have been clobbered by some guy in a hotrod red and yellow armor suit. Would you think "Oh my. Vigilantism is deplorable in this day and age."

Or would you think "Oh my God! This is so awesome!" Don't kid yourself.

Dec 6, 2009#44

The Lovely Boehner

IronBrig4 said:
Felony theft? I'm talking about armed robbery here.

Fine, is that the line where broken bones and a week in the hospital is acceptable?

---------- Post added at 05:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:23 PM ----------

IronBrig4 said:
Let's say you read your morning paper and come across the local section. The main story is about how a group of thugs were found beaten to a pulp. Those crooks claim to have been clobbered by some guy in a hotrod red and yellow armor suit. Would you think "Oh my. Vigilantism is deplorable in this day and age."

Or would you think "Oh my God! This is so awesome!" Don't kid yourself.

I would probably think "Jesus christ, I hope the police catch that guy. "

Dec 6, 2009#45

LordRendar

Super Heroes should fight Super Villains. Let the Police handle the real Crimes.

Dec 6, 2009#46

IronBrig4

Charlie Dont Surf said:
Fine, is that the line where broken bones and a week in the hospital is acceptable?

I didn't say it would be acceptable. Just that it would be a deterrent. Instead of the gangbangers being picked up by the cops and gaining street cred for mouthing off to the fuzz, everybody will see them get taken down by a blind dude in red (or yellow) spandex.

By the way, how awkward would it be for anybody to fight Daredevil? That would almost be like the school bully hitting a disabled kid. The guy bumps into walls.

Dec 6, 2009#47

fade

Oh, Espy. I totally disagree with you about the "no one thinks about them" bit. I'm not saying you're saying this, but I am dead tired of being told by conservatives that being against a war means being against its fighters. Especially when their safety is one of the huge reasons why many people are against a war. They're not one and the same, and most war detractors, having more than two brain cells to rub together, know this.

Dec 6, 2009#48

Iaculus

IronBrig4 said:
Let's say you read your morning paper and come across the local section. The main story is about how a group of thugs were found beaten to a pulp. Those crooks claim to have been clobbered by some guy in a hotrod red and yellow armor suit. Would you think "Oh my. Vigilantism is deplorable in this day and age."

Or would you think "Oh my God! This is so awesome!" Don't kid yourself.

My probable thought? "What in the hell of fuck."

Dec 6, 2009#49

IronBrig4

Okay, I'll grant you that. My initial reaction would probably be "WTF?" as well. But then I'd start thinking it was cool.

Dec 6, 2009#50

Allen, who is Quiet

LordRendar said:
Super Heroes should fight Super Villains. Let the Police handle the real Crimes.

This. If there's cartoonish supervillainy abound, then it should be opposed by cartoonish superheroism. Otherwise, there's a legal system in place to handle your everyday crimes.

Dec 6, 2009#51

Espy

fade said:
I'm not saying you're saying this

Good, because I didn't say that.

Dec 6, 2009#52

Kitty Sinatra

HowDroll said:
Who watches the Watchmen?

Not me, not yet anyway. I haven't actually got around to watching the Watchmen. Maybe when I see a copy at the used DvD shop.

Dec 6, 2009#53

ThatGrinningIdiot!

AshburnerX;310232][quote=IronBrig4 said:
I think superheroes would be a huge deterrent, though. The crooks might have to be released because of a legal technicality, but the injuries they suffered might serve to make them think twice about pulling off another heist. I can just picture some gangbangers having second thoughts.

"Yo homes, I don't think we should knock off that liquor store tonight. We tried that last month and that crazy muthafucka in the bat outfit broke my jaw and busted up Jefe's kneecaps. Didn't do no time, but now my face hurts when it rains."

"Yeah, and did you hear about the Bloods robbing that Korean deli yesterday? They got flattened by some big black dude in a yellow disco shirt. He just yelled out 'Sweet Christmas!' and it was all over for them."

"Homies? Maybe we shouldn't live like a bunch of hoodlums. Our folks didn't come over from Puerto Rico so we could turn out like this."

"Word. Let's go work on our GED's."

Seriously, it would suck to get beaten up by Luke Cage. The guy's a walking blaxploitation stereotype who wears a HEADBAND.

If the Death Penalty can't deter people from commiting murders, getting beat up isn't gonna stop people from robbing the local Kwik-e-Mart.[/QUOTE]

Y'all ain't criminals so y'all can just shush now, ok?

Dec 6, 2009#54

Shegokigo

Charlie Dont Surf;310237][quote=IronBrig4 said:
Let's say you read your morning paper and come across the local section. The main story is about how a group of thugs were found beaten to a pulp. Those crooks claim to have been clobbered by some guy in a hotrod red and yellow armor suit. Would you think "Oh my. Vigilantism is deplorable in this day and age."

Or would you think "Oh my God! This is so awesome!" Don't kid yourself.

I would probably think "Jesus christ, I hope the police catch that guy. "[/QUOTE]

Sometimes even you lay it on a bit thick Charlie.

Dec 6, 2009#55

The Lovely Boehner

Shegokigo;310314][quote=Charlie Dont Surf;310237][quote=IronBrig4 said:
Let's say you read your morning paper and come across the local section. The main story is about how a group of thugs were found beaten to a pulp. Those crooks claim to have been clobbered by some guy in a hotrod red and yellow armor suit. Would you think "Oh my. Vigilantism is deplorable in this day and age."

Or would you think "Oh my God! This is so awesome!" Don't kid yourself.

I would probably think "Jesus christ, I hope the police catch that guy. "[/QUOTE]

Sometimes even you lay it on a bit thick Charlie.[/QUOTE]

I'm not just saying that. Seriously. Real life isn't Iron Man. If someone was taking out people in powered armor, there's no reason to think they would only go after the evil. Last time something like this happened, it was that Killdozer in Colorado that basically leveled an entire small town and caused millions in property damage.

Dec 6, 2009#56

Cajungal

I love hearing stories about civilians who stand up to criminals and help to hand them over to the proper authorities--like those videos of holdups where the criminal gets overpowered. But when it comes to reading story after story about some mysterious person who targets criminals--It probably would be kinda cool at first, but I'd worry about what kind of person was out doing this kind of work. At what point would he/she let his/her own personal beliefs that aren't necessarily law affect whom they hurt?

Dec 6, 2009#57

WolfOfOdin

....My great grandfather served with the RAF, my grandfather with the Royal Marines, my cousin is in the Irish Army and my nephew wants to be in the SAS when he grows up. I have nothing but the ultimate and enduring respect for anyone who decides to get shot at for a living.

I normally go out of my way to not be mean or such, but if you paint all soldiers with the brush of 'innocent murdering monster' I have a rather large problem with your perceptions of what a soldier really is. Yes, there are a lot of bad people in the world, just as there are a lot of good ones. Deciding that the evil are the only ones worth noticing is at best wrong and at worst deeply disrespectful to anyone who died to make sure you were able to draw breath.

Call me optimistic, but while I wish for a world without violent conflict, I'm damned proud to know people I love and who love me would be willing to die a thousand miles away from home for my sake.

Edit:

My grandfather, the Royal Marine, is deeply against the current war in Iraq, because he believes the governments are using their soldiers as toys, not living men and women and I stand with him in that belief.

Dec 6, 2009#58

Troll

Oh lawdy I missed out on some trolling opportunities here.

I think that I would support Golden Age-esque superheros, the ones that just detain criminals until the police arrive. I think most people would probably support something like that. However, Luke Cage or Punisher-style superheroes would be just as much of a problem as the criminals they would target.

So, I guess the answer all comes down to superhero methods. If they obeyed the law and did not use excessive force, I would be behind superheroes all the way. Any hyper-violent types would not get my support.

Dec 6, 2009#59

WolfOfOdin

A Troll said:
Oh lawdy I missed out on some trolling opportunities here.

I think that I would support Golden Age-esque superheros, the ones that just detain criminals until the police arrive. I think most people would probably support something like that. However, Luke Cage or Punisher-style superheroes would be just as much of a problem as the criminals they would target.

So, I guess the answer all comes down to superhero methods. If they obeyed the law and did not use excessive force, I would be behind superheroes all the way. Any hyper-violent types would not get my support.

What about ones who frustrated their foes with pointed barbs of wit and intelligence till they stood there dumbfounded?

THAT'S RIGHT, I'M ON TO YOU AND YOUR LINGUISTICALLY SUPERHEROIC WAYS!

Dec 6, 2009#60

Troll

WolfOfOdin;310375][quote=A Troll said:
Oh lawdy I missed out on some trolling opportunities here.

I think that I would support Golden Age-esque superheros, the ones that just detain criminals until the police arrive. I think most people would probably support something like that. However, Luke Cage or Punisher-style superheroes would be just as much of a problem as the criminals they would target.

So, I guess the answer all comes down to superhero methods. If they obeyed the law and did not use excessive force, I would be behind superheroes all the way. Any hyper-violent types would not get my support.

What about ones who frustrated their foes with pointed barbs of wit and intelligence till they stood there dumbfounded?

THAT'S RIGHT, I'M ON TO YOU AND YOUR LINGUISTICALLY SUPERHEROIC WAYS![/QUOTE]

:batman:

Dec 6, 2009#61

IronBrig4

Speaking of Luke Cage, the Heroes for Hire might work. They aren't much different than private investigators.

Dec 6, 2009#62

The Lovely Boehner

Thinking all soldiers are bastions of heroism and thinking all soldiers are slinging grenades into elementary schools are equally dumb.

Dec 6, 2009#63

Troll

Charlie Dont Surf said:
Thinking all soldiers are bastions of heroism and thinking all soldiers are slinging grenades into elementary schools are equally dumb.

I don't think anyone took either of those positions in this discussion.

Dec 6, 2009#64

The Lovely Boehner

A Troll;310382][quote=Charlie Dont Surf said:
Thinking all soldiers are bastions of heroism and thinking all soldiers are slinging grenades into elementary schools are equally dumb.

I don't think anyone took either of those positions in this discussion.[/QUOTE]

I thought wolf was somewhat assuming/saying I did

Dec 6, 2009#65

WolfOfOdin

Charlie Dont Surf;310384][quote=A Troll;310382][quote=Charlie Dont Surf said:
Thinking all soldiers are bastions of heroism and thinking all soldiers are slinging grenades into elementary schools are equally dumb.

I don't think anyone took either of those positions in this discussion.[/QUOTE]

I thought wolf was somewhat assuming/saying I did[/QUOTE]

No Charlie, I was just getting my opinion out there. Sorry if it seemed like it was directed toward you. I'd specifically call you out if I was responding to you though. Buut I haven't, so let's eat drink and be drunk!

Dec 6, 2009#66

Troll

Charlie Dont Surf;310384][quote=A Troll;310382][quote=Charlie Dont Surf said:
Thinking all soldiers are bastions of heroism and thinking all soldiers are slinging grenades into elementary schools are equally dumb.

I don't think anyone took either of those positions in this discussion.[/QUOTE]

I thought wolf was somewhat assuming/saying I did[/QUOTE]

Okay, I probably shouldn't be speaking for what anyone else meant in this thread. I'll just say that I agree with you: blindly idolizing or disparaging soldiers to foolish. However, I think that most rational people would come to the conclusion that most members of the armed forces deserve respect.

I know that's a vague statement at best with too many qualifiers. I know that there is a strong nationalistic pull in this country to blindly support troops, and attack anyone who doesn't share that same level of fervor. Still, at the end of the day I think it's important to remember the kind of job most soldiers do, and make sure that they get the proper support.

Dec 7, 2009#67

@Li3n

RocketGirl;310152][quote=@Li3n said:
Get them into a government program so they're used like they should be

Click to expand...

Assassinating people in 3rd world countries?

That sounds a bit limiting, dunnit?

[/QUOTE]

Denbrought;310168][quote=@Li3n said:
Get them into a government program so they're used like they should be

Click to expand...

Assassinating people in 3rd world countries?

If that's how you think a government should be using its special forces.[/QUOTE]

To quote HowDroll: "Who watches the Watchmen?"

If the Death Penalty can't deter people from commiting murders, getting beat up isn't gonna stop people from robbing the local Kwik-e-Mart.

Well getting beaten up is something you probably already experienced, so it might work better, pavlovian conditioning style...

---------- Post added at 08:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:06 AM ----------

A Troll;310382][quote=Charlie Dont Surf said:
Thinking all soldiers are bastions of heroism and thinking all soldiers are slinging grenades into elementary schools are equally dumb.

I don't think anyone took either of those positions in this discussion.[/QUOTE]

Of course not, no one is silly enough to think there are enough schools for all the soldiers to lob their grenades at...

Dec 7, 2009#68

Iaculus

Gruebeard;310291][quote=HowDroll said:
Who watches the Watchmen?

Not me, not yet anyway. I haven't actually got around to watching the Watchmen. Maybe when I see a copy at the used DvD shop.[/QUOTE]

Go for the comic book itself. It's exactly the same thing, but with eight times the depth and complexity.

The film's opening sequence was pretty neat, though.

Dec 7, 2009#69

IronBrig4

Reboneer said:
What? Dexter doesn't kill other killers because he wants to "clean up the streets", he kills them because he likes killing people, and they're the least likely to be missed. Plus, he's gotten it wrong and killed an innocent man before, and got over it pretty quickly.

If you're talking about that guy in the first episode of Season 3, it was self-defense. I haven't seen beyond the third episode in that season, though, so please don't spoil it.

Dec 7, 2009#70

Bubble181

No, absolutely not.
A real-life "superhero" is a vigilante in a costume - someone guaranteed to have some psychological problems (delusions of grandeur, or trauma, or whatnot, depending on who they are), deciding all by themselves who's guilty and who isn't, disrupt due process, have never heard of habeas corpus, etc etc. Superheroes are great for fighting supervillains. We have neither.

As for the soldier discussion: my father was in the army, and sure, I respect most soldiers...somewhat. But no, soldiers don't automatically deserve my respect for being willing to die for me or my rights, or my country. All well and good sounding, but we don't live in a semi-perfect world where everyone is free to make the choice, etc etc. We don't live in Starship Troopers (the book, not the movie or the game).
Many people join the army because, well, there's nothing else for them. A bum who can't/won't work another job and joins the armed forces to have a place to eat and sleep, isn't suddenly worthy of my respect. He's living off wellfare with better pay and a slight risk increase. Note that Belgian armed forces are obviously slightly different from the American ones in this respect - we don't wage wars all the time, so the risk is considerably lower here.
People who do join because they want to help people out (I know quite a few military engineers who helped build camps in Kosovo, are keeping peace in Tsjaad, are building bridges, etc; and a military doctor who's working full-time in Afghanistan), do deserve my respect and they get it, sure enough. About the same ,but slightly more, than other people I know working for the Red Cross or Doctors without Borders who do similar work (the military people go first, and stay in danger zones, wear a uniform and such - I'm aware they're at a higher risk than those of the NGOs).
If we're talking veterans..Why is a guy worth my respect because he got drafted and happeend to survive? Why is he any better or worse than the German soldier who got drafted in WWII for his country? Or the Belgian/French who were sent to fight the communists on the Eastern Front? They're all people who either were forced to join - which doesn't deserve respect at all - or who fought for something they believed in, and were later reviled, cast away, etc...

TLDR: I have heaps of respect for people who join armed forces to help improve the world or protect innocents. Having a uniform does not automatically make one holy, and it's silly to think all soldiers/veterans deserve an equal amount of respect.

Dec 7, 2009#71

Silver Jelly

In Spain, the military started a war to prevent the country of becoming communist. Then they decided to start a fascist regime.

As a rich family, my grandparent suffered in the hands of the "reds", having to spend the war in several forced work camps, losing everything he and his family had. As a catalan intellectual, he then had his culture forbidden by the fascist government (and he didn't suffer too much because, as an ex-prisoner of "the enemy", he had certain privileges).

Am I supposed to be for or against the spanish military, then, considering the historical precedents?

And how can I judge the american army?

Dec 7, 2009#72

Chazwozel

Charlie Dont Surf;310344][quote=Shegokigo;310314][quote=Charlie Dont Surf;310237][quote=IronBrig4 said:
Let's say you read your morning paper and come across the local section. The main story is about how a group of thugs were found beaten to a pulp. Those crooks claim to have been clobbered by some guy in a hotrod red and yellow armor suit. Would you think "Oh my. Vigilantism is deplorable in this day and age."

Or would you think "Oh my God! This is so awesome!" Don't kid yourself.

I would probably think "Jesus christ, I hope the police catch that guy. "[/quote]

Sometimes even you lay it on a bit thick Charlie.[/quote]

I'm not just saying that. Seriously. Real life isn't Iron Man. If someone was taking out people in powered armor, there's no reason to think they would only go after the evil. Last time something like this happened, it was that Killdozer in Colorado that basically leveled an entire small town and caused millions in property damage.[/QUOTE]

I wish I had Ironman's suit. My first order of business would be to fly to Texas and turbo kick you in the balls.

Dec 7, 2009#73

The Lovely Boehner

Chazwozel said:
I wish I had Ironman's suit. My first order of business would be to fly to Texas and turbo kick you in the balls.

And I hope you'd go to jail for that.

Dec 7, 2009#74

Chazwozel

Charlie Dont Surf;310488][quote=Chazwozel said:
I wish I had Ironman's suit. My first order of business would be to fly to Texas and turbo kick you in the balls.

And I hope you'd go to jail for that.[/QUOTE]

Don't worry, I wouldn't...

Dec 7, 2009#75

The Lovely Boehner

Chazwozel;310489][quote=Charlie Dont Surf;310488][quote=Chazwozel said:
I wish I had Ironman's suit. My first order of business would be to fly to Texas and turbo kick you in the balls.

And I hope you'd go to jail for that.[/QUOTE]

Don't worry, I wouldn't...[/QUOTE]

Dave don't delete this thread

Dec 7, 2009#76

Espy

Dec 7, 2009#77

ThatGrinningIdiot!

Charlie Dont Surf;310526][quote=Chazwozel;310489][quote=Charlie Dont Surf;310488][quote=Chazwozel said:
I wish I had Ironman's suit. My first order of business would be to fly to Texas and turbo kick you in the balls.

And I hope you'd go to jail for that.[/QUOTE]

Don't worry, I wouldn't...[/QUOTE]

Dave don't delete this thread[/QUOTE]

Chuck, I hope you never have to meet a robber or mugger.

Dec 7, 2009#78

The Lovely Boehner

BlackCrossCrusader;310615][quote=Charlie Dont Surf;310526][quote=Chazwozel;310489][quote=Charlie Dont Surf;310488][quote=Chazwozel said:
I wish I had Ironman's suit. My first order of business would be to fly to Texas and turbo kick you in the balls.

And I hope you'd go to jail for that.[/QUOTE]

Don't worry, I wouldn't...[/QUOTE]

Dave don't delete this thread[/QUOTE]

Chuck, I hope you never have to meet a robber or mugger.[/QUOTE]

Self-defense is a completely different matter, and I don't begrudge the responsible use of firearms for protection. And I hope I don't meet a robber or mugger ever either.

Dec 7, 2009#79

Dave

Oh hai guys! What's happening in THIS thread?

Desperate people do desperate things. Look at the story of that guy who tried to rob the Pakistani store owner. The store owner disarmed him, gave him some bread and $40. Here's the initial story. Here's the followup. The guy writes back and includes $50 and a letter thanking the shopkeeper for helping to change his life. The point is, superheroes would not be a deterrent for people who are in this situation, anyway.
As a former military person I can tell you that I knew some pretty courageous individuals and I knew some who I wouldn't shoot in the head as it would be a waste of time and a perfectly good bullet. Not all soldiers are heroic.

Turbo OUT!

Dec 7, 2009#80

Shegokigo

Dave said:
Oh hai guys! What's happening in THIS thread?

Desperate people do desperate things. Look at the story of that guy who tried to rob the Pakistani store owner. The store owner disarmed him, gave him some bread and $40. Here's the initial story. Here's the followup. The guy writes back and includes $50 and a letter thanking the shopkeeper for helping to change his life. The point is, superheroes would not be a deterrent for people who are in this situation, anyway.

As a former military person I can tell you that I knew some pretty courageous individuals and I knew some who I wouldn't shoot in the head as it would be a waste of time and a perfectly good bullet. Not all soldiers are heroic.

Turbo OUT!

Dec 7, 2009#81

Ravenpoe

Super heroes kinda go against the very idea of due process and justice for all.

Not that the US justice system is perfect (far from it), but it beats a bunch of vigilantes running around, taking the law into their own hands.

This is the difference between reality and fantasy.

Dec 7, 2009#82

fade

Then again, that was the whole point in the beginning. Even the first Superman comic if I recall correctly talks about how due process won't work against these guys. Of course this is right before Supes tosses some gangsters literally across the city, presumably to their off-panel deaths.

Dec 7, 2009#83

@Li3n

Dave said:
Desperate people do desperate things. Look at the story of that guy who tried to rob the Pakistani store owner. The store owner disarmed him, gave him some bread and $40. Here's the initial story. Here's the followup. The guy writes back and includes $50 and a letter thanking the shopkeeper for helping to change his life. The point is, superheroes would not be a deterrent for people who are in this situation, anyway.

What, that store owned is obviously some sort of muslim superhero solving the worlds problems one conversion at a time.

Dec 7, 2009#84

Kitty Sinatra

Iaculus;310456][quote=Gruebeard;310291][quote=HowDroll said:
Who watches the Watchmen?

Not me, not yet anyway. I haven't actually got around to watching the Watchmen. Maybe when I see a copy at the used DvD shop.[/QUOTE]

Go for the comic book itself.[/QUOTE]
Maybe I already have. Maybe I haven't. I ain't gonna go say, cause Droill didn't go ask who reads the Watchmen.

*goes for a soda*

Dec 7, 2009#85

Iaculus

Gruebeard;310922][quote=Iaculus;310456][quote=Gruebeard;310291][quote=HowDroll said:
Who watches the Watchmen?

Not me, not yet anyway. I haven't actually got around to watching the Watchmen. Maybe when I see a copy at the used DvD shop.[/quote]

Go for the comic book itself.[/quote]
Maybe I already have. Maybe I haven't. I ain't gonna go say, cause Droill didn't go ask who reads the Watchmen.

*goes for a soda*[/QUOTE]

Check the fridge.

Dec 7, 2009#86

Kitty Sinatra

I'm a little afraid to. Last time I checked there was a little has-been Canadian rock star chilling out in there.

Dec 7, 2009#87

fade

That was just Zuul.

Dec 7, 2009#88

Kitty Sinatra

hmm.

I don't think we're on the same wavelength here, man. I've been alluding to this:

Dec 7, 2009#89

Adammon

Superheroes beget supervillains. Batman created the Joker, Superman creates Lex Luthor, the Flash creates the Reverse Flash.

In each of those cases, escalation ends up killing more people than if the superhero never originally existed, so no, I don't want superheroes.

A mugger can be foiled by any ordinary person with a bit of luck. Lex Luthor not so much.

Dec 7, 2009#90

Kitty Sinatra

What the heck's The Reverse Flash? The only thing I can think of would be a never-nude.

Dec 7, 2009#91

drawn_inward

If you could find someone or a group of people that would be totally self-less, and not do it for money or fame like Batman then I wouldn't have too much of a problem with it.

People are corrupt. We have corrupt cops, politicians, etc. They're not all corrupt, but a lot are and a lot become corrupt once they get some power. As much as I'd like to see some real justice for some murdering/child-molesting scum, I don't think we'd find a person like Bruce Wayne in this world. We read those books and watch those movies b/c we wish for that, but it won't work in the real world.

Dec 7, 2009#92

Null

Superheroes are a symptom of a society that is unwilling to protect itself and instead wants someone unaccountable, untouchable, unknowable, to step in and do it for them. Instead of being able or willing to protect yourself, Spiderman will save you. Batman will take down the badguy. Just call for Superman.

Superheroes do indeed beget supervillians, because without supervillians, there's no real need for superheroes. You take places like Dodge City, Deadwood, Tombstone - places where shootings were not uncommon when various groups were in town, where the murder rate could get unreasonably high when the whiskey flowed, the town was packed, and desperation ran high. A small group of deputy marshals, including Bat Masterson and Wyatt Earp, pacified the town to a reasonable level. They did this without huge collateral damage, or even a high body count. Earp, for example, is only known to have killed one man in a gunfight during his work in Dodge City. What happened was that they were willing to break up fights before they got unreasonable, and they were willing to take down people who needed to be taken down. They had the legal right to do so, and they rode that to, and sometimes over, the limit. They used their pistols as clubs when need be, and pulled shotguns on crowds that even looked at them ugly. What made it work, was that the people on the other end of their guns, knew they'd use them if they had to, without being mean drunk and crazy.

Were they superheroes?

No. They were lawmen, doing their job the way it needed to be done.

So would I support superheroes? No, I'd rather support the ones we already have.

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