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Wow.... American's Tough love?
#1
Chibibar
Chibibar
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/12/business/moneywatch/main5380043.shtml
This article is basically about planning and ability to kick your kids out when they move back home. I guess it is totally different than some families. Most Asian family would accept their children move back in and the children will help out. We actually believe in living together instead of planning to "kick them out"
What do y'all think?
Marion Presser Kurn and Mike Kurn, of Manalapan, N.J., were so very close to having an empty nest. Their two eldest children appeared to be launching successful careers, and their youngest daughter had just graduated from a local community college. Reality first intruded when their 28-year-old daughter Cheryl, who was in New York chasing her dream of a life in television, found that part-time contract work wasn't enough to pay the bills, and she moved back in. Next up: their 25-year-old son Matt, who had studied criminal justice and become a cop, one of the few rock-solid gigs around in this economy. Then he announced he was "rethinking his career," and he quit. Welcome back, Matt. Meanwhile, like so many recent college graduates, their 21-year-old daughter Jodi, is struggling to find the right job, so she's still at home.
For now, all three are working at Mike's gym. In the meantime, the elder Kurns have seen their grocery bill skyrocket and have even had to absorb a spike in their electric and gas tabs. The elder Kurns had hoped to be focused on saving for retirement by now.
"There's no point in kicking them out," says Marion, 54. "Where would they go?"
Indeed, that's a question many parents are struggling with as the worst job market in a generation and burgeoning student debt conspire to drive huge numbers of adult children back home to mommy and daddy. According to a 2009 survey by Peter D. Hart Research Associates, more than one third of workers under age 34 are living with their parents. And guess what? Parents of college kids face decent odds that Junior will need his old room back: MonsterTRAK, a division of Monster.com, found that just 54 percent of companies planned to hire new college grads this year, compared with 76 percent in 2007.
Making matters worse is the fact that young adults also face more debt than ever - average undergraduate student-loan debt is at a record high of $22,700, according to the College Board, and undergrads also carried sky-high credit card debt last year.
All of which means you shouldn't be surprised when your daughter's moving van heads straight from the sorority house to your doorstep. Here's how to make the best of the situation and help ease your children out of the homestead. (Also, check out these tips for getting along with your boomerang brood from a kid on the opposite side of the fence, the writer of the popular [Stuff]MyDadSays Twitter feed).
Ground Rules
If you hope to ever get your kids out of the house, you need a plan in place before they move back. That plan should set a move-out deadline and define what they need to accomplish while they're home, says Christina Newberry, co-author of The Hands-On Guide to Surviving Adult Children Living at Home. Newberry speaks from experience, having twice moved home to live with her parents in her 20s. She suggests families agree to a policy for everything from overnight guests to sharing the TV and the house computer. Do not baby your children, she warns. "If you treat them like a kid again, you're not helping them - you are creating a lifestyle that they won't be able to maintain when they leave," she says. "Your job is to get them to where they don't need you anymore."
If your adult child works, set limits for what you are willing to pay for around the house (HBO? Yes. Their cell phone? No.), and agree on a specific date to start paying rent and an amount. A useful rule of thumb for how much to charge is 10 to 20 percent of take-home pay, which is less than the 30 percent the average person spends on rent, but enough to be meaningful to both parents and kids. Don't feel right taking your child's money? Use rent payments as a carrot by promising to hand the money back at the scheduled move-out time.
Sarah Kini, 24, recently moved from an apartment she shared in Boston's South End to her parents' house in Cambridge because her job just didn't pay enough. At her mother Joanne's request, Sarah is depositing the $800 she previously paid in rent into her savings account to be used toward an MBA; Joanne says she'll check Sarah's bank statements to make sure she's depositing faithfully. She also plans to remove her daughter's iPhone from her group phone plan and ask her to pay for gas on the borrowed car.
If your adult child doesn't work, consider offering a work-for-rent arrangement that means something to you financially, such as mowing the lawn, paving the driveway, or painting the house. When James Peel, 24, moved home to Dallas after college in 2008, he helped his father, Bill, fix the family's deck, an estimated $700 job if they'd hired a carpenter.
Job Search
After your twentysomething moves in, you need to make it their job to find a job. Applying for one job a day is a reasonable rule, says Abby Wilner, a researcher in higher education at the Pell Institute and co-author of Quarterlife Crisis and Quarterlifer's Companion. Your adult child should be networking, going to job and industry events, contacting his alumni association, and researching target companies, rather than just applying to online job postings, she says.
If you're itching to open your BlackBerry and share your contacts, tread lightly. "It's a serious mistake for a parent to take that over unless the kid really wants it," says Jane Isay, author of Walking on Eggshells: Navigating the Delicate Relationship Between Adult Children and Parents. Adult children in their 20s who are starting to assert some independence may not want your help, she says. A laid-off thirtysomething, however, might have the maturity to welcome the gesture. Also, as hard as it is to be objective about your offspring, try to make a judgment: Is your daughter ready for an interview with your old pal who is now head of sales at a big corporation? Or is the smarter path to ask your friend to recommend a younger salesperson who could give her some advice?
Asking your adult children to join your LinkedIn or other work-related social network can be helpful. But if you make the offer, do it with care. Let your business contacts know in advance that your child might be emailing them. And warn your young job applicant, a charter member of the Twitter generation, that it's not cool to send a mass email to your contacts.
And while you may have to endure some eye rolling, review the basic rules of networking, such as how to use informational interviews and the importance of writing thank-you notes. Nudging your grown kid to change his job-search direction can help, too. Peel was having no luck finding a position at a public relations firm after an internship failed to turn into a full-time job. So his mother, Kathy, who runs a coaching firm, organized a family meeting to brainstorm. During summers and holiday breaks, James had worked in retail outlets and enjoyed sales work, so he tweaked his resume and cover letter to highlight his sales skills. Their efforts paid off when James landed a sales job at Guitar Center in Dallas. The family is now working on a budget to help him move out.
Tough Love
If a year passes and your child is still a permanent fixture on the couch, it's time for a change, especially if he or she isn't putting in the time and effort to find a job and move out.
A career counselor, with fees that range between $500 and $2,000, may be worth the cost to get your child back on track. A counselor can assess your children's skills, clean up their resumes, and create career-action plans to get them moving. Halle Crawford, an Atlanta-based career counselor, says it's often her job to push adult kids to take an entry-level job - even if it isn't their dream job - to get them started.
Parents also need to be unafraid to kick their kids out so they can grow up and start their own lives - even if it means they have to work a McJob and live with three roommates, says Jane Adams, a social psychologist and author who coaches parent-adult child relationships.
Susan, of Albany, N.Y., came to the reluctant conclusion that kids need a firm shove out the door. "My advice is to make it so uncomfortable at home that your kids flee," she says. "By being too soft you are enabling them to stay." After moving home in April, Susan's 25-year-old daughter decided she really didn't need to work, so she quit her retail job. Her room was a mess, and she had recently started inviting a new boyfriend home every evening. For Susan, who requested that we not use her last name, the boyfriend was the last straw. She imposed a 10 p.m. guest curfew.
Guess what happened? Her daughter moved out within a week.
Sure, in this economy, your kids have a fairly strong financial incentive to return to the nest. But some things are more powerful than money.
For now, all three are working at Mike's gym. In the meantime, the elder Kurns have seen their grocery bill skyrocket and have even had to absorb a spike in their electric and gas tabs. The elder Kurns had hoped to be focused on saving for retirement by now.
"There's no point in kicking them out," says Marion, 54. "Where would they go?"
Indeed, that's a question many parents are struggling with as the worst job market in a generation and burgeoning student debt conspire to drive huge numbers of adult children back home to mommy and daddy. According to a 2009 survey by Peter D. Hart Research Associates, more than one third of workers under age 34 are living with their parents. And guess what? Parents of college kids face decent odds that Junior will need his old room back: MonsterTRAK, a division of Monster.com, found that just 54 percent of companies planned to hire new college grads this year, compared with 76 percent in 2007.
Making matters worse is the fact that young adults also face more debt than ever - average undergraduate student-loan debt is at a record high of $22,700, according to the College Board, and undergrads also carried sky-high credit card debt last year.
All of which means you shouldn't be surprised when your daughter's moving van heads straight from the sorority house to your doorstep. Here's how to make the best of the situation and help ease your children out of the homestead. (Also, check out these tips for getting along with your boomerang brood from a kid on the opposite side of the fence, the writer of the popular [Stuff]MyDadSays Twitter feed).
Ground Rules
If you hope to ever get your kids out of the house, you need a plan in place before they move back. That plan should set a move-out deadline and define what they need to accomplish while they're home, says Christina Newberry, co-author of The Hands-On Guide to Surviving Adult Children Living at Home. Newberry speaks from experience, having twice moved home to live with her parents in her 20s. She suggests families agree to a policy for everything from overnight guests to sharing the TV and the house computer. Do not baby your children, she warns. "If you treat them like a kid again, you're not helping them - you are creating a lifestyle that they won't be able to maintain when they leave," she says. "Your job is to get them to where they don't need you anymore."
If your adult child works, set limits for what you are willing to pay for around the house (HBO? Yes. Their cell phone? No.), and agree on a specific date to start paying rent and an amount. A useful rule of thumb for how much to charge is 10 to 20 percent of take-home pay, which is less than the 30 percent the average person spends on rent, but enough to be meaningful to both parents and kids. Don't feel right taking your child's money? Use rent payments as a carrot by promising to hand the money back at the scheduled move-out time.
Sarah Kini, 24, recently moved from an apartment she shared in Boston's South End to her parents' house in Cambridge because her job just didn't pay enough. At her mother Joanne's request, Sarah is depositing the $800 she previously paid in rent into her savings account to be used toward an MBA; Joanne says she'll check Sarah's bank statements to make sure she's depositing faithfully. She also plans to remove her daughter's iPhone from her group phone plan and ask her to pay for gas on the borrowed car.
If your adult child doesn't work, consider offering a work-for-rent arrangement that means something to you financially, such as mowing the lawn, paving the driveway, or painting the house. When James Peel, 24, moved home to Dallas after college in 2008, he helped his father, Bill, fix the family's deck, an estimated $700 job if they'd hired a carpenter.
Job Search
After your twentysomething moves in, you need to make it their job to find a job. Applying for one job a day is a reasonable rule, says Abby Wilner, a researcher in higher education at the Pell Institute and co-author of Quarterlife Crisis and Quarterlifer's Companion. Your adult child should be networking, going to job and industry events, contacting his alumni association, and researching target companies, rather than just applying to online job postings, she says.
If you're itching to open your BlackBerry and share your contacts, tread lightly. "It's a serious mistake for a parent to take that over unless the kid really wants it," says Jane Isay, author of Walking on Eggshells: Navigating the Delicate Relationship Between Adult Children and Parents. Adult children in their 20s who are starting to assert some independence may not want your help, she says. A laid-off thirtysomething, however, might have the maturity to welcome the gesture. Also, as hard as it is to be objective about your offspring, try to make a judgment: Is your daughter ready for an interview with your old pal who is now head of sales at a big corporation? Or is the smarter path to ask your friend to recommend a younger salesperson who could give her some advice?
Asking your adult children to join your LinkedIn or other work-related social network can be helpful. But if you make the offer, do it with care. Let your business contacts know in advance that your child might be emailing them. And warn your young job applicant, a charter member of the Twitter generation, that it's not cool to send a mass email to your contacts.
And while you may have to endure some eye rolling, review the basic rules of networking, such as how to use informational interviews and the importance of writing thank-you notes. Nudging your grown kid to change his job-search direction can help, too. Peel was having no luck finding a position at a public relations firm after an internship failed to turn into a full-time job. So his mother, Kathy, who runs a coaching firm, organized a family meeting to brainstorm. During summers and holiday breaks, James had worked in retail outlets and enjoyed sales work, so he tweaked his resume and cover letter to highlight his sales skills. Their efforts paid off when James landed a sales job at Guitar Center in Dallas. The family is now working on a budget to help him move out.
Tough Love
If a year passes and your child is still a permanent fixture on the couch, it's time for a change, especially if he or she isn't putting in the time and effort to find a job and move out.
A career counselor, with fees that range between $500 and $2,000, may be worth the cost to get your child back on track. A counselor can assess your children's skills, clean up their resumes, and create career-action plans to get them moving. Halle Crawford, an Atlanta-based career counselor, says it's often her job to push adult kids to take an entry-level job - even if it isn't their dream job - to get them started.
Parents also need to be unafraid to kick their kids out so they can grow up and start their own lives - even if it means they have to work a McJob and live with three roommates, says Jane Adams, a social psychologist and author who coaches parent-adult child relationships.
Susan, of Albany, N.Y., came to the reluctant conclusion that kids need a firm shove out the door. "My advice is to make it so uncomfortable at home that your kids flee," she says. "By being too soft you are enabling them to stay." After moving home in April, Susan's 25-year-old daughter decided she really didn't need to work, so she quit her retail job. Her room was a mess, and she had recently started inviting a new boyfriend home every evening. For Susan, who requested that we not use her last name, the boyfriend was the last straw. She imposed a 10 p.m. guest curfew.
Guess what happened? Her daughter moved out within a week.
Sure, in this economy, your kids have a fairly strong financial incentive to return to the nest. But some things are more powerful than money.
This article is basically about planning and ability to kick your kids out when they move back home. I guess it is totally different than some families. Most Asian family would accept their children move back in and the children will help out. We actually believe in living together instead of planning to "kick them out"
What do y'all think?
#2
Covar
Covar
Kick them out or charge them rent. They're adults now, they should be able to provide for themselves and pull their own weight.
#3
phil
phil
We place a much higher value on being independent from the family as a whole. It's not just the parents that want the kids out, I can guarantee that the kids want to be out too. To you it may seem like kicking them out, but for us it's more like ensuring financial responsibility and making sure they can provide for themselves and their own family one day.
I know there's a chance I may have to move back home for a time when I graduate, but it'll only be because I have no other option first.
I know there's a chance I may have to move back home for a time when I graduate, but it'll only be because I have no other option first.
#4
Dave
Dave
My son turns 19 in May, in which case he's off our insurance as he's not a full time student. My wife and I are facing a real quandary. Do we kick him out with no marketable skills and no drive to do anything productive or do we let him sit in his room all day doing nothing but playing video games? I know the easy answer is kick him out, but he doesn't have a job that will sustain him and he'd be broke/homeless within a matter of months if not only 1 month.
We could charge him rent but then he'd have no money for anything at all and I doubt that he'd keep it up or that my wife would allow me to play the hard ass. This kid has NO drive to do ANYTHING! If we give him a chore to do he will do exactly what we ask - no more, no less. He does NO chores without our asking him to do it first.
Frankly, I don't know what to do with him. I love him and don't want him to have to go through the pain I think it'll take to make him independent but don't know what else to do. It's easy for the people who write articles like this but it's fucking harder than hell when you're living it.
We could charge him rent but then he'd have no money for anything at all and I doubt that he'd keep it up or that my wife would allow me to play the hard ass. This kid has NO drive to do ANYTHING! If we give him a chore to do he will do exactly what we ask - no more, no less. He does NO chores without our asking him to do it first.
Frankly, I don't know what to do with him. I love him and don't want him to have to go through the pain I think it'll take to make him independent but don't know what else to do. It's easy for the people who write articles like this but it's fucking harder than hell when you're living it.
#5
Kitty Sinatra
Kitty Sinatra
I thought you lived in the US, Chibs; I'm surprised that you've never realized how common it is for (North) Americans.
What I think it really springs from is a historical desire for North Americans to go out in the world in "Make Something of Yourself." Living at home is seen as stifling one's ability to do that because when living at home the parents remain the authority.
What I think it really springs from is a historical desire for North Americans to go out in the world in "Make Something of Yourself." Living at home is seen as stifling one's ability to do that because when living at home the parents remain the authority.
#6
bigcountry23
bigcountry23
My sister-in-law and her husband and two kids moved back in with my Wife's folks (moved from back east in the hopes of finding a teaching job, her husband is "reired" Army and no longer feels the need to work). It's a bad situation.
#7
strawman
strawman
America's culture has long been one of, "Find your own place in society." We're about nuclear families, not extended families.
Of course that's slowly changing to ME ME ME, instant gratification, and "family only if it doesn't interfere with my own path in life." Part of that is, "I want kids, but I expect that the full-time parenting will be done after 16-20 years." People have a lot of life in them after 50 and 60, and they don't want to be in their 70s and 80s wondering why they are working to support their kids and possibly grand kids.
In any case, neither of those two perspectives allow children to subsist indefinitely on parental income.
The other edge of the sword, though, is retirement homes. Rather than taking an aging parent into one's own home, people are setting them up in 'old folks' homes - again, a consequence of independent living.
-Adam
Of course that's slowly changing to ME ME ME, instant gratification, and "family only if it doesn't interfere with my own path in life." Part of that is, "I want kids, but I expect that the full-time parenting will be done after 16-20 years." People have a lot of life in them after 50 and 60, and they don't want to be in their 70s and 80s wondering why they are working to support their kids and possibly grand kids.
In any case, neither of those two perspectives allow children to subsist indefinitely on parental income.
The other edge of the sword, though, is retirement homes. Rather than taking an aging parent into one's own home, people are setting them up in 'old folks' homes - again, a consequence of independent living.
-Adam
#8
Wasabi Poptart
Wasabi Poptart
When I was 17, I got a job and started paying my own bills (I had my own phone line, credit card, and my own car insurance policy instead of being on my parents' policy) while I was still in high school. I moved out when I was 20.
At 24, I needed to move back in with my parents again because I was between places to live (my boyfriend and I broke up, plus I was in the process of buying my own home). I paid for my bills, bought any groceries I needed, and did some of the housework. My parents didn't make me pay rent. I just had to help out around the house, respect their rules, and take care of my own business. It wasn't a free ride, but I think I had it pretty easy.
At 24, I needed to move back in with my parents again because I was between places to live (my boyfriend and I broke up, plus I was in the process of buying my own home). I paid for my bills, bought any groceries I needed, and did some of the housework. My parents didn't make me pay rent. I just had to help out around the house, respect their rules, and take care of my own business. It wasn't a free ride, but I think I had it pretty easy.
#9
North_Ranger
North_Ranger
I... I probably shouldn't say anything. 27, finishing my MA... have not yet found a long-term job (only one or two short substitute gigs and working summers as a telemarketer)...
#10
sixpackshaker
I would say Marines, but it does not sound like a good fit.
I was quite old when I went back to my parents for 2 years (31). I quit teaching and took a job traveling for at least 2 weeks a month. It made sense at that time. Then I enrolled for some college courses that took a year. But it was my goal from the start to leave.
I had the desire for work and education. I hope your kid can at least look a trade. Or hop into the military and get a year or so to figure out what he wants. Then he'll get 3 years of training.
sixpackshaker
There is always the Air Force.My son turns 19 in May, in which case he's off our insurance as he's not a full time student. My wife and I are facing a real quandary. Do we kick him out with no marketable skills and no drive to do anything productive or do we let him sit in his room all day doing nothing but playing video games? I know the easy answer is kick him out, but he doesn't have a job that will sustain him and he'd be broke/homeless within a matter of months if not only 1 month.
We could charge him rent but then he'd have no money for anything at all and I doubt that he'd keep it up or that my wife would allow me to play the hard ass. This kid has NO drive to do ANYTHING! If we give him a chore to do he will do exactly what we ask - no more, no less. He does NO chores without our asking him to do it first.
Frankly, I don't know what to do with him. I love him and don't want him to have to go through the pain I think it'll take to make him independent but don't know what else to do. It's easy for the people who write articles like this but it's fucking harder than hell when you're living it.
I would say Marines, but it does not sound like a good fit.
I was quite old when I went back to my parents for 2 years (31). I quit teaching and took a job traveling for at least 2 weeks a month. It made sense at that time. Then I enrolled for some college courses that took a year. But it was my goal from the start to leave.
I had the desire for work and education. I hope your kid can at least look a trade. Or hop into the military and get a year or so to figure out what he wants. Then he'll get 3 years of training.
#11
Dave
Dave
You are also in a different culture than we in the United States.North Ranger said:I... I probably shouldn't say anything. 27, finishing my MA... have not yet found a long-term job (only one or two short substitute gigs and working summers as a telemarketer)...
#12
phil
What are his friends doing? When I took a semester off of community college and only worked it didn't take me long to realize I was bored out of my mind in a town where all my friends moved away to college.
If they're staying in town, I'd probably just continue imposing rules and basically make the idea of living at home less and less appealing.
Or keep leaving army pamphlets around and keep talking about how you hear they're going to start the draft again for kids without full time jobs or classes.
phil
My son turns 19 in May, in which case he's off our insurance as he's not a full time student. My wife and I are facing a real quandary. Do we kick him out with no marketable skills and no drive to do anything productive or do we let him sit in his room all day doing nothing but playing video games? I know the easy answer is kick him out, but he doesn't have a job that will sustain him and he'd be broke/homeless within a matter of months if not only 1 month.
We could charge him rent but then he'd have no money for anything at all and I doubt that he'd keep it up or that my wife would allow me to play the hard ass. This kid has NO drive to do ANYTHING! If we give him a chore to do he will do exactly what we ask - no more, no less. He does NO chores without our asking him to do it first.
Frankly, I don't know what to do with him. I love him and don't want him to have to go through the pain I think it'll take to make him independent but don't know what else to do. It's easy for the people who write articles like this but it's fucking harder than hell when you're living it.
What are his friends doing? When I took a semester off of community college and only worked it didn't take me long to realize I was bored out of my mind in a town where all my friends moved away to college.
If they're staying in town, I'd probably just continue imposing rules and basically make the idea of living at home less and less appealing.
Or keep leaving army pamphlets around and keep talking about how you hear they're going to start the draft again for kids without full time jobs or classes.
#13
Dave
Dave
Mom won't let him join the military, no matter how much of a good idea I think it is. She's basically talked him out of the idea.
#14
North_Ranger
Granted, they don't have to pay $30,000 a year to the university... only $100.
North_Ranger
True. But still... I feel a little guilty about the fact that my parents kept me financially secure through university. They came from lower-educated background, and they always valued education, so between them and their children is this "gentlemen's agreement": they pay the bills so we can concentrate on our studies.You are also in a different culture than we in the United States.North Ranger said:I... I probably shouldn't say anything. 27, finishing my MA... have not yet found a long-term job (only one or two short substitute gigs and working summers as a telemarketer)...
Granted, they don't have to pay $30,000 a year to the university... only $100.
#15
Qonas
But I don't cover the insurance any more. I can't. After graduating my career track was supposed to be military but I was medically discharged in the middle of boot camp. So I had to switch to college. Unfortunately, I didn't get any grants and had to use loans. Luckily my grandfather had saved up a large number of bonds for myself and my brother and the amount I needed in loans was relatively small. But the key here is what was mentioned in the article:
My point is, the job market is pitiful. Horrible. Granted my experience is with Michigan only, the state unquestionably hit hardest in this economy (we had a recession years before stock markets even began sniffing one). But hiring is not like it was in the old days. New college grads aren't getting the jobs they would be even 5 years ago. That's causing this whole "move back in mess" in the first place. My opinion may be skewed here since I come from a large, accommodating Italian family but I think we really need to start relaxing on the "kick kids out at 18" attitude that we've rightfully held for the country's entire existence. It's not any fun for the person having to move back home at all, now. It's embarrassing as hell. But there is also very little realistic choice considering the current job market nowadays.
So Dave, in my opinion, you need to get your son working. Any kind of work whatsoever. Even interning somewhere is experience and will get him contacts. But the longer he's out of the job hunting circulation, it's going to be harder and harder for him to find traction.
Qonas
That's the ideal. When I was in high school, which for reference was '97 til '01, I dish-washed at a local Italian restaurant whose owner knew my family (olol mafia connections). I was then able to use the money I made from that to get my family to agree to buying a car; I'd get the car as a birthday gift so long as I covered my own insurance. I wasn't using my money for anything else, and I still have that car now as it's paid off.When I was 17, I got a job and started paying my own bills (I had my own phone line, credit card, and my own car insurance policy instead of being on my parents' policy) while I was still in high school. I moved out when I was 20.
But I don't cover the insurance any more. I can't. After graduating my career track was supposed to be military but I was medically discharged in the middle of boot camp. So I had to switch to college. Unfortunately, I didn't get any grants and had to use loans. Luckily my grandfather had saved up a large number of bonds for myself and my brother and the amount I needed in loans was relatively small. But the key here is what was mentioned in the article:
Even 76% is too low, in my view, and that's the year I graduated (went the "get an associate's degree at a community college, transfer for bachelor's to save money" route and it still took me three instead of two years for the bachelor's). Of course I say this as a member of the 24% who weren't hired. Fresh out of college, history degree in hand and college newspaper job experience on the resume....nothing. Absolutely nothing. Research assisting, libraries, institutes, down to Best Buys and Target. Even fast food, the McJobs the article says to use to get people's feet wet, would not hire me because of over-qualification. Even now I don't have an actual full-time career, but two different part-time jobs.MonsterTRAK, a division of Monster.com, found that just 54 percent of companies planned to hire new college grads this year, compared with 76 percent in 2007.
My point is, the job market is pitiful. Horrible. Granted my experience is with Michigan only, the state unquestionably hit hardest in this economy (we had a recession years before stock markets even began sniffing one). But hiring is not like it was in the old days. New college grads aren't getting the jobs they would be even 5 years ago. That's causing this whole "move back in mess" in the first place. My opinion may be skewed here since I come from a large, accommodating Italian family but I think we really need to start relaxing on the "kick kids out at 18" attitude that we've rightfully held for the country's entire existence. It's not any fun for the person having to move back home at all, now. It's embarrassing as hell. But there is also very little realistic choice considering the current job market nowadays.
So Dave, in my opinion, you need to get your son working. Any kind of work whatsoever. Even interning somewhere is experience and will get him contacts. But the longer he's out of the job hunting circulation, it's going to be harder and harder for him to find traction.
#16
phil
Granted, they don't have to pay $30,000 a year to the university... only $100.[/QUOTE]
I'm moving in and going to school with you.
phil
True. But still... I feel a little guilty about the fact that my parents kept me financially secure through university. They came from lower-educated background, and they always valued education, so between them and their children is this "gentlemen's agreement": they pay the bills so we can concentrate on our studies.You are also in a different culture than we in the United States.North Ranger said:I... I probably shouldn't say anything. 27, finishing my MA... have not yet found a long-term job (only one or two short substitute gigs and working summers as a telemarketer)...
Granted, they don't have to pay $30,000 a year to the university... only $100.[/QUOTE]
I'm moving in and going to school with you.
#17
Dave
Dave
What really gets me is this: I work for a private university. My son could GO TO COLLEGE FOR FREE!!!!
And he doesn't want to.
And he doesn't want to.
#18
Chibibar
My parents will always be there for me (while they are alive) but that is how I was brought up.
I can see where Dave is coming from, and one of the solution would be military
at least it will put some omph into that boy but that is presenting options and always let them know there is a place at home for them. Safety net.
I hope that won't change when I have kids, cause my parents did it for me when I was having hard time with school and work and I want to be there for my kids.
Chibibar
I am, but I always seem to be wrong. I feel it is wrong I guess. I mean if your kids are in rough times, they should be there to help but not "encourage" to kick them out.I thought you lived in the US, Chibs; I'm surprised that you've never realized how common it is for (North) Americans.
What I think it really springs from is a historical desire for North Americans to go out in the world in "Make Something of Yourself." Living at home is seen as stifling one's ability to do that because when living at home the parents remain the authority.
My parents will always be there for me (while they are alive) but that is how I was brought up.
I can see where Dave is coming from, and one of the solution would be military
at least it will put some omph into that boy but that is presenting options and always let them know there is a place at home for them. Safety net. I hope that won't change when I have kids, cause my parents did it for me when I was having hard time with school and work and I want to be there for my kids.
#19
Kitty Sinatra
Kitty Sinatra
Wow. Um, yeah . . . Holy fucking shit he'll eventually regret not going to College if he passes up that opportunity.
#20
phil
I got a fundraiser idea for you. I'll pay a dollar to smack him upside his head and ask him if he's out of his damn mind.
phil
What really gets me is this: I work for a private university. My son could GO TO COLLEGE FOR FREE!!!!
And he doesn't want to.
I got a fundraiser idea for you. I'll pay a dollar to smack him upside his head and ask him if he's out of his damn mind.
#21
ElJuski
ElJuski
Dave, make him come live with me. I'll make him do my chores AND TURN HIM INTO A MAN >: |
---------- Post added at 10:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:05 PM ----------
ITT: Juski wants an indentured servant
---------- Post added at 10:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:05 PM ----------
ITT: Juski wants an indentured servant
#22
North_Ranger
Also, foreign exchange students apparently now have to pay extra (not much, I hear, but still).
North_Ranger
Fine, but you sleep on the couch. And it has been known to eat people if I forgot to throw bacon at it.I'm moving in and going to school with you.
Also, foreign exchange students apparently now have to pay extra (not much, I hear, but still).
#23
Hylian
Hylian
I had to move back with my parents for a couple of months. But I have a job and I help around the house and I chip in money towards food and stuff when I can and I help out when I can. I am also working on getting my car working and I am working already on moving back out. Now if I had no job or at least was just lazing around than I could see my parents getting upset and possibly wanting to kick me out (not that they would) I think what a parent should do is to set goals for their kids if they end up living with them past as set age. For example if they are not working or going to school than they should be expected to do chores and follow your rules. And if they continually slacking off and not working/going to school than you should give them a deadline. Otherwise all you are doing is training your kids to become dependent on others to supply their needs.
#24
Docseverin
Docseverin
Sounds like a Private...The Marines sucked when you were in but how much did they help you to find drive and a purpose in life?h. This kid has NO drive to do ANYTHING! If we give him a chore to do he will do exactly what we ask - no more, no less. He does NO chores without our asking him to do it first.
#25
Kitty Sinatra
Kitty Sinatra
Ah, Chibs. I think you're reading too much into the article now. The writer's really just using some extreme language in order to make his article seem more significant or entertaining.
#26
AshburnerX
AshburnerX
From what I've been reading in articles and magazines, it seems the "Kick them Out when YOUR ready" is slowly changing to "Kick them out when they can support themselves", mainly due to the high cost of college and how difficult it is to find a job right now. I think this makes sense, considering going to college is no longer a way to get a good job, but the only way to get ANY kind of job you can live on.
#27
Steve
Steve
The problem is parents make living at home too enjoyable. I am the oldest of five kids raised in a double wide trailer in the middle of the country. I could not wait to get out of that hell hole. Prison would have been a step up from that. My parents didn't even have cable. We had the large antenna outside the trailer to pick up the main four networks. No internet, no cable, no privacy. Easy choice.
#28
Rubicon
In the tech field, I searched for years before finding a tech job that would hire me, entry level, with no previous experience, and I went to college with the student loan debit to prove it.
Sure, there are the general labor jobs, retail, fastfood, etc. Whatcha gonna make there? $6 maybe $7 an hour, if you're lucky to not get minimum wage. You can't get an apartment on minimum wage.
These days, even with a college degree, it dont mean shit in a lot of companies eyes.
Rubicon
This, does not always work.Kick them out or charge them rent. They're adults now, they should be able to provide for themselves and pull their own weight.
In the tech field, I searched for years before finding a tech job that would hire me, entry level, with no previous experience, and I went to college with the student loan debit to prove it.
Sure, there are the general labor jobs, retail, fastfood, etc. Whatcha gonna make there? $6 maybe $7 an hour, if you're lucky to not get minimum wage. You can't get an apartment on minimum wage.
These days, even with a college degree, it dont mean shit in a lot of companies eyes.
#29
phil
phil
I think one problem with charging them rent, is that you might be slowing down the actual move out process. Moving apartments, just by itself can cost an arm and a leg. When I moved into here there was
security deposit-250
electricity deposit- 140
internet set up- 20
application fee- 20
And that's just my half, and turns out to more than what the first month of rent cost me. So I would have had to stay at home an additional month just to cover that cost. But if they're charging me rent, even a really cheap one, it's just another delay in getting me out of there.
security deposit-250
electricity deposit- 140
internet set up- 20
application fee- 20
And that's just my half, and turns out to more than what the first month of rent cost me. So I would have had to stay at home an additional month just to cover that cost. But if they're charging me rent, even a really cheap one, it's just another delay in getting me out of there.
#30
AshburnerX
AshburnerX
The smartest thing to do is charge them rent, but don't spend a dime of it. Then when they are ready to move out, you give it to them as a gift for them to start their life with. Think of it as... forced savings account.I think one problem with charging them rent, is that you might be slowing down the actual move out process. Moving apartments, just by itself can cost an arm and a leg. When I moved into here there was
security deposit-250
electricity deposit- 140
internet set up- 20
application fee- 20
And that's just my half, and turns out to more than what the first month of rent cost me. So I would have had to stay at home an additional month just to cover that cost. But if they're charging me rent, even a really cheap one, it's just another delay in getting me out of there.
#31
Sparhawk
Sparhawk
Military, Dave. Air Force or Navy. Build his character, self-esteem and get him off his ass. Had one friend just do this with her 21-ish son, he's made a real change in his life, more responsible already and it's only been about 8 months.Frankly, I don't know what to do with him. I love him and don't want him to have to go through the pain I think it'll take to make him independent but don't know what else to do. It's easy for the people who write articles like this but it's fucking harder than hell when you're living it.
#32
HoboNinja
My buddy Joe never had a job in his life and his parents gave him 1 month after he turned 18 to get a job or get kicked out and you know what it motivated his ass to get the hell out there and find one. He got a job at a pizza place which only lasted about a month because they ended up not needing any more employees but still it showed them he had the iniative to find a job, so then he was unemployed for 5 or so months still looking for a job and going to school and finally he found a new one but can't start for another month or so because he got attacked by a dog and has to wait for his stitches to heal before he does any physical work.
Seriously just be like go to college or gtfo. That's what my Dad is doing with me, as long as I am in college I have a home here (well unless I pull a Van Wilder and spend 8 years doing nothing) but after I am done I have 6 months to find a job and move out... granted I think my Dad would let me stay a little longer if I can't find one right away but not like a super long time. Maybe a year or so after college.
HoboNinja
Tell him he goes to college, gets a job, or gets homeless.My son turns 19 in May, in which case he's off our insurance as he's not a full time student. My wife and I are facing a real quandary. Do we kick him out with no marketable skills and no drive to do anything productive or do we let him sit in his room all day doing nothing but playing video games? I know the easy answer is kick him out, but he doesn't have a job that will sustain him and he'd be broke/homeless within a matter of months if not only 1 month.
We could charge him rent but then he'd have no money for anything at all and I doubt that he'd keep it up or that my wife would allow me to play the hard ass. This kid has NO drive to do ANYTHING! If we give him a chore to do he will do exactly what we ask - no more, no less. He does NO chores without our asking him to do it first.
Frankly, I don't know what to do with him. I love him and don't want him to have to go through the pain I think it'll take to make him independent but don't know what else to do. It's easy for the people who write articles like this but it's fucking harder than hell when you're living it.
My buddy Joe never had a job in his life and his parents gave him 1 month after he turned 18 to get a job or get kicked out and you know what it motivated his ass to get the hell out there and find one. He got a job at a pizza place which only lasted about a month because they ended up not needing any more employees but still it showed them he had the iniative to find a job, so then he was unemployed for 5 or so months still looking for a job and going to school and finally he found a new one but can't start for another month or so because he got attacked by a dog and has to wait for his stitches to heal before he does any physical work.
Seriously just be like go to college or gtfo. That's what my Dad is doing with me, as long as I am in college I have a home here (well unless I pull a Van Wilder and spend 8 years doing nothing) but after I am done I have 6 months to find a job and move out... granted I think my Dad would let me stay a little longer if I can't find one right away but not like a super long time. Maybe a year or so after college.
#33
makare
makare
I still live with my family, when I am home from school anyway. I do intend to live with them once I graduate too. Hopefully I will have a good job and can help with payments around the house. I like living with my family we are really close. It also helps that our house is two apartments so I basically get the upstairs apartment to myself (when my sister is away doing whatever the hell she does).
Quite a few of my friends still live with their parents. I guess we are just unusually connected to our families maybe? I have never wanted to move out. My sister did. The second she turned 18 she was out doing her own thing... sorta. I have always seen my future connected with my family. I think living with your parents is a great idea. Mooching off your parents, not so much. Pay your share and do your part around the house. I don't really understand why anyone would want to move away unless your family relationship is especially bad. But to each his own I guess.
Dave have you explained things to your kid? Give him an ultimatum; shape up or ship out (literally or figuratively depending on how you and your wife end up feeling about it).
Quite a few of my friends still live with their parents. I guess we are just unusually connected to our families maybe? I have never wanted to move out. My sister did. The second she turned 18 she was out doing her own thing... sorta. I have always seen my future connected with my family. I think living with your parents is a great idea. Mooching off your parents, not so much. Pay your share and do your part around the house. I don't really understand why anyone would want to move away unless your family relationship is especially bad. But to each his own I guess.
Dave have you explained things to your kid? Give him an ultimatum; shape up or ship out (literally or figuratively depending on how you and your wife end up feeling about it).
#34
Dave
Dave
I told him when he graduated high school in May that he had 1 year. He still hasn't moved.
#35
strawman
strawman
Well that's not too bad. Give him that year - he'll get close to the deadline and start being ambulatory.
-Adam
-Adam
#36
makare
Dave... tasers... they are the only answer left.
makare
I told him when he graduated high school in May that he had 1 year. He still hasn't moved.
Dave... tasers... they are the only answer left.
#37
Kitty Sinatra
Kitty Sinatra
:laser:
#38
Twitch
Twitch
#39
Wasabi Poptart
Wasabi Poptart
Dave - My grandmother would tell you he needs a swift kick in the ass.
#40
strawman
strawman
An ever-increasing chore/rent/etc burden might help ease him into self-sufficiency as well. Start off with the, "You have to pull your weight around here." and get him to deal with trash, laundry, lawn care, cooking, etc. All the skills he'll need to take care of for himself if he lives alone. Then start extracting money. If he doesn't have money, barter for games, computer, etc - distractions you can sell on ebay.
You can give him the nuclear option of trading it all in for a full time load at school. (ie, he has few/no responsibilities at home as long as he's in school full time)
You have a few goals here:
* Teach him the skills to take care of his own needs
* Give him the confidence that he could if he HAD to
* Give him the choice of living an austere life with no entertainment in his free time, or getting a job for some portion of his free time
* Put him in a position to see that he can afford to move out, and that he'd be happier out from under filial obligations than having a little bit of a free ride.
-Adam
You can give him the nuclear option of trading it all in for a full time load at school. (ie, he has few/no responsibilities at home as long as he's in school full time)
You have a few goals here:
* Teach him the skills to take care of his own needs
* Give him the confidence that he could if he HAD to
* Give him the choice of living an austere life with no entertainment in his free time, or getting a job for some portion of his free time
* Put him in a position to see that he can afford to move out, and that he'd be happier out from under filial obligations than having a little bit of a free ride.
-Adam
#41
Twitch
Twitch
#42
Deschain
Deschain
#43
Twitch
---------- Post added at 05:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:04 AM ----------
Twitch
---------- Post added at 05:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:04 AM ----------
#44
Twitch
---------- Post added at 05:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:34 AM ----------
---------- Post added at 05:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:39 AM ----------
I have to admit that at some point this went terribly wrong.
Twitch
---------- Post added at 05:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:34 AM ----------
---------- Post added at 05:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:39 AM ----------
I have to admit that at some point this went terribly wrong.
#45
strawman
strawman
No you don't. Ignorance is bliss.
-Adam
-Adam
#46
Deschain
Deschain
#47
Twitch
Twitch
#48
@Li3n
@Li3n
Man, that article sure tries it's hardest to make the parents sound like jerks that just want to get rid of the kid...
Yeah, it the kid is just sitting on his ass and doing nothing one should definitely do something about it, but there's such a thing as overreacting, kicking him/her out even if he'she was trying to get a job and did help around the house etc. is stupid.
Dave... tasers... they are the only answer left.[/QUOTE]
Nah, there's still the option of lobotomy... worked for Doc Savage.
But seriously, taking a year off is nice and all, but after it should be either college or a full time job... you don't want him turning into a hippie, do you?
Yeah, it the kid is just sitting on his ass and doing nothing one should definitely do something about it, but there's such a thing as overreacting, kicking him/her out even if he'she was trying to get a job and did help around the house etc. is stupid.
I told him when he graduated high school in May that he had 1 year. He still hasn't moved.
Dave... tasers... they are the only answer left.[/QUOTE]
Nah, there's still the option of lobotomy... worked for Doc Savage.
But seriously, taking a year off is nice and all, but after it should be either college or a full time job... you don't want him turning into a hippie, do you?
#49
Silver Jelly
Silver Jelly
My mother calls me an idiot if I make any reference of me not living with them in my thirties. "We have no problem paying for your bills, why would you want to go live somwhere else?"
I don't intend to comply, but I find this to be pretty weird...
I don't intend to comply, but I find this to be pretty weird...
#50
Dave
Dave
Best....thread....EVER!!!
#51
R
Raemon777
Give him some time to get a job or get signed up at your college, but not too much time. There's a law of inverse proportionality wherein the more time you give someone to do something, the more they wait until the last minute and put less time into it. (I'm speaking as a young twenty something who really wishes people had been MORE hard on me to give me more incentive to get my ass in gear.)
R
Raemon777
How long until he turns 19? Because it seems like this is way easier than you're making it out to be. Let him know under no uncertain terms that at X period of time (doesn't have to be 19, whatever you think is reasonable to get a job) he either pays rent, goes to college, or moves out. Period.What really gets me is this: I work for a private university. My son could GO TO COLLEGE FOR FREE!!!!
And he doesn't want to.
Give him some time to get a job or get signed up at your college, but not too much time. There's a law of inverse proportionality wherein the more time you give someone to do something, the more they wait until the last minute and put less time into it. (I'm speaking as a young twenty something who really wishes people had been MORE hard on me to give me more incentive to get my ass in gear.)
#52
Dave
Dave
He's already been told 19, as that's when he's off of our insurance and needs to do something.How long until he turns 19? Because it seems like this is way easier than you're making it out to be. Let him know under no uncertain terms that at X period of time (doesn't have to be 19, whatever you think is reasonable to get a job) he either pays rent, goes to college, or moves out. Period.What really gets me is this: I work for a private university. My son could GO TO COLLEGE FOR FREE!!!!
And he doesn't want to.
Give him some time to get a job or get signed up at your college, but not too much time. There's a law of inverse proportionality wherein the more time you give someone to do something, the more they wait until the last minute and put less time into it. (I'm speaking as a young twenty something who really wishes people had been MORE hard on me to give me more incentive to get my ass in gear.)
#53
sixpackshaker
sixpackshaker
I was lucky enough that my Dad had connections that got me summer jobs in the oil field. I made really good money, but I had to bust my ass for that cash. There was nothing like 10 hours a day of shovel work, to make you want to get back to school and make some decent grades.
#54
HowDroll
HowDroll
I intend to move the hell out as soon as I can after I graduate. Even if I need to go full-time at Best Buy until something better comes up, I have no intention of living at home, and my parents have made it abundantly clear that I'll be paying rent if I stay. I get along very well with my family, but I feel that when I'm in my twenties it's time to cut the umbilical cord and live independently.
My boyfriend, on the other hand, is driving me absolutely nuts about this. His brother and sister both lived at home until they were almost thirty, and now he's settled into a comfortable rut at home with his parents, who I have a really bad history with and he doesn't like half the time either. The worst part? He has a great job and could easily afford to live on his own, but he doesn't want to "throw money away" on rent and is saving up for a down payment on a condo. He wants me to live at home for a year or so after I graduate and put money away for that as well. It's a great idea in theory, but two adults living at home (as we both are right now) leads to some logistical problems when it comes to certain adult activities. Screwing around in your parents' basement when you're 15 is one thing, but it's really passe when you're in your twenties.
My boyfriend, on the other hand, is driving me absolutely nuts about this. His brother and sister both lived at home until they were almost thirty, and now he's settled into a comfortable rut at home with his parents, who I have a really bad history with and he doesn't like half the time either. The worst part? He has a great job and could easily afford to live on his own, but he doesn't want to "throw money away" on rent and is saving up for a down payment on a condo. He wants me to live at home for a year or so after I graduate and put money away for that as well. It's a great idea in theory, but two adults living at home (as we both are right now) leads to some logistical problems when it comes to certain adult activities. Screwing around in your parents' basement when you're 15 is one thing, but it's really passe when you're in your twenties.
#55
Vytamindi
Vytamindi
That's the main reason I wasn't ready to get married... moving out of my mom's house into my husband's house would leave WAY too much to regret of not having my own furniture, learning how to budget, etc.
#56
Twitch
Twitch
#57
Heavan
Heavan
My one fear in life is turning into my uncle. He's 55 and my grandmother still has to budget his money. And by 'budget his money' I mean he gives her whatever salary he earns when he decides to work (he does contract jobs, makes maybe 6000 dollars a year because he's such a lazy jerk) and she pays his rent, buys his food, buys his gas, and gives him fifty dollars every time he comes to ask, spending probably fifty grand a year on him easily. My grandmother is almost 80 and she's still working full time to support my uncle, who could easily do this himself if he just got off his ass. It makes me sick.
#58
JCM
Or he goes to college, or he pays rent and food.
Playing softie with one's kid in his age, especially with the crisis, highly qualified job market and unemployment level of these days is basically giving your son a "be a bum for the rest of your life" card.
JCM
Simple.What really gets me is this: I work for a private university. My son could GO TO COLLEGE FOR FREE!!!!
And he doesn't want to.
Or he goes to college, or he pays rent and food.
Playing softie with one's kid in his age, especially with the crisis, highly qualified job market and unemployment level of these days is basically giving your son a "be a bum for the rest of your life" card.
#59
R
Raemon777
Likewise if you're going the "increase the load of chores until he gets up and leaves" route that others have been suggesting, make sure there are actual consequences to not doing the chores. If not, it'll basically amount to "he may or may not get around to them if he feels like it."
R
Raemon777
Then the only real problem is making sure you stick to that. Whatever you're doing, make sure there are actual visible consequences for not doing it. If he has no reason to believe you're actually gonna move all his stuff out to the curb at 19 and you or your wife will just say "eh, he'll move eventually" then he's not gonna move, or if he does it'll be slowly and without really learning the universe has consequences he has to deal with on the universe's terms, not on his.He's already been told 19, as that's when he's off of our insurance and needs to do something.
Likewise if you're going the "increase the load of chores until he gets up and leaves" route that others have been suggesting, make sure there are actual consequences to not doing the chores. If not, it'll basically amount to "he may or may not get around to them if he feels like it."