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Mormons apologise for baptising Simon Wiesenthal's parents.

There's little they could do that could be more offensive.

The Mormon Church has a history of doing this. I frankly don't see the harm in it, as if you don't share the same beliefs, then it shouldn't matter what a group of people does in your name. And if you're dead, your odds of caring are even less. I view it as getting mad at someone for praying for you. If you think it's bullshit, then it doesn't matter what they do.


*edited to draw distinction between The Mormon Church as an organization, and all mormons as a group of people.

Yeah jews, don't be persecuting others based on their religion.

(I'm kidding)

Gotta admit, baptizing a holocaust survivor into a different religion comes across as pretty damn insensitive, regardless of their intentions for it.

They have baptized EVERYBODY.

The Mormon Church is a horrible organization.

Charlie and I agree on this. Their stances and activism against same-sex marriage, their infiltration of organizations to alter the direction (Boy Scouts are a great example) and other examples show that the church is very active in trying to steer our culture.

Not that they're any different from other religions. Most large religious organizations are far more evil than their individual parts. I know some wonderful Catholic priests but think the church itself is a study in evil wearing the costume of good.

Sure is nice to pop in here and feel like I'm being assaulted for my beliefs.

Stay classy Halforums.

As I stated, the individuals are great, but the entity which runs it is not necessarily the most beneficial to society.
Added at: 08:14
I was attacking neither the beliefs of the church, nor it's individual members, but instead attacking the evil organization which has grown up behind (and frequently in contradiction with) these beliefs.

Whelp.

If you actually read the story I think it's sort of a neat idea, and something no other religion would do. Here's the premise: You choose a religion in life and only in death do you find out if you picked correctly, making it the nastiest shell game in existence. What the mormon's are doing is saying "Hey, if it turns out we were right and this is the religion you should be in when you get to heaven, we'll give you another shot to choose again." An important point is that the soul isn't forcibly babptised, it is offered the choice of babtism.

This is like compelte anathema to a lot of evangelical religions as it removes a lot of the reason for joining it because "hey, don't worry about joining us right now. You do what feels right and if you change your mind we'll give you another shot later on"

All that said, it's still pretty insensitive. I also wonder what the Morman interpretation of Jews being the children of god already thing that all of the other christian religions have (you don't have to evangelise to them because they are already saved.)

Also someone should link a picture of Mormon heaven from South Park

When people ask, "If there is one true church, then what kind of a just God would allow billions of people to be born, live, and die without ever knowing it?" our answer is that those ordinances necessary to live with God again are available to everyone, and that through proxy baptism and other ordinances those that die without knowledge of the church will be able to choose to accept or reject it after this life.

They do not become members of the church unless they accept the ordinance. So this only provides a choice, it doesn't force them into into the church.

We allow members to submit names of their ancestors to the church to have this ordinance performed for them. We do not allow them to submit names for people to whom they are not related, and we do not permit them to submit names of Holocaust Victims. There are many, many (many!) other restrictions on submissions as well, but those two pertain to this case in particular.

Of course the system is not perfect, and some misguided members of the church submit names inappropriately or in opposition to church policy. As technology improves, and as genealogical databases become more complete they build tools to make it more difficult to do this. Of course when this sort of abuse is discovered the names of those baptized improperly are removed from the records, which is essentially the same thing as having never had the ordinance performed.

Genealogy from the Mormon church is one of the things they get right. Holy crap is their database cool!

But I still think the power-mad humans have corrupted the organizations behind nearly all religions and turned them into evil entities.

sixpackshaker said:

Sure is nice to pop in here and feel like I'm being assaulted for my beliefs.

Stay classy Halforums.

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I think the catholic church, as huge as it is, is pretty damn corrupt. That doesn't mean I think catholics are, nor do I find fault in what they believe in (albeit I'm an atheist myself).

It's why I edited my original post. I don't like the Mormon Church at all, or their attempts to change or influence local and national laws to fit their viewpoints. But I have nothing against Mormons. Like I said before, I'm not religious, and aside from the criticisms I have against all religions, the mormon religion seems pretty harmless. Groups of people coming together with a focus on family and community certainly isn't a bad thing, and the mormons I've known personally have all been pretty great people.

Also, Donny Osmond is pretty cool.

Necronic said:

"...we'll give you another shot to choose again."

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Keep in mind that if one chooses not to live according the the principles of the gospel in life, they aren't likely to want to live them after death. So yes, while everyone will have the choice, it's very likely they'll make the same choice then that they do now. The time we spend on the earth is a blip in the perspective of eternity - if it's hard for one to live it for a handful of dozens of years, I can't imagine them wanting to live it for the rest of eternity.

It's worth letting the missionaries in the door for at least one visit - the first thing they'll talk to you about is God's nature and your relationship to Him. You can always tell them no for future visits.

sixpackshaker said:

Sure is nice to pop in here and feel like I'm being assaulted for my beliefs.

Stay classy Halforums.

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You know who you should go talk to about this? Homosexuals in California who had their right to get married denied due to a massive influx of negative campaign money. I'm sure they enjoyed seeing bumper stickers and tv ads that assault them for their sexual preference. Want to guess where that money came from?

I've known a lot of Mormons in my life, and they are good people. As individuals. The church as an entity has done some bad things around here, though, and I'm not going to just give it a pass because some of its members are nice folks.

sixpackshaker said:

Sure is nice to pop in here and feel like I'm being assaulted for my beliefs.

Stay classy Halforums.

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Hey I'm all for a religion that says I get to be the God of my own planet after death, filled with celestial wives to do my bidding.

Oh wait, that's only if you're a straight guy.

I sure hope you never tithe.

Shegokigo said:

Hey I'm all for a religion that says I get to be the God of my own planet after death, filled with celestial wives to do my bidding.

Oh wait, that's only if you're a straight guy.

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The mormon missionaries that live next door haven't knocked on my door since I opened it without pants.I see this as a major win.

makare said:

The mormon missionaries that live next door haven't knocked on my door since I opened it without pants.I see this as a major win.

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But the mailman has knocked every day.

Nearly every Mormon I've ever met was a damn good person. The Brazilian Mormons I know can get a little overbearingly preachy, but they're still good people. Like nearly every organized religion, the problems are rarely the fault of your average practicing member.

Anyone who calls themselves a member of a religion but says they don't uphold EVERYTHING that's part of the religion is pretty hilarious.

I didn't realize that religion was "pick and choose".

Shegokigo said:

Anyone who calls themselves a member of a religion but says they don't uphold EVERYTHING that's part of the religion is pretty hilarious.

I didn't realize that religion was "pick and choose".

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There`s not a person alive that isn`t a hypocrite in some ways.

But they'll act offended or argue how wrong you are for not respecting their religion in a heartbeat even if they are hypocritical.

Espy said:

Whelp.

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Youngling.
Added at: 19:38

stienman said:

It's worth letting the missionaries in the door for at least one visit - the first thing they'll talk to you about is God's nature and your relationship to Him. You can always tell them no for future visits.

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Is there some requirement on their part that they have to get a certain number of people talked to? Because otherwise I don't see the point. Like wasting each other's time if the visited person has zero interest at all.

I guess I am just kind of offended by the whole thing. i already have a relationship with God. I don't need a bunch of, well basically, spiritual homewreckers trying to tell me that my relationship with God isn't good enough. Frankly it pisses me off.

Try being atheist. Online you have lots of support. In real life people treat you like a baby killer. Were I less of an asshole it would really bother me.

I like people, I dislike their organized religions. I prefer to be an athesist, and a godless monster(according to all my friends who let Jesus into their hearts)I was raised in a liberal Roman Catholic household, my folks are good people and I appreciate their beliefs, but the reality is years of catholic school and being dragged to church, being immersed in the Teachings of the J man just did nothing for me. My parents taught me to think, to rationalize my existance, and the idea of some cosmic jew watching my every action, to be told that thinking bad things is just as much of a sin as doing them is hilarious to me. It just doesnt do it for me, I dont feel any deep connection with god. You know what filled "the void" for me? Learning, understanding the universe through greater knowledge. Everytime a little more of reality's inner workings becomes clear to me the more I feel a kinship with the universe. I am not unhappy, but anytime anyone has the gaul to try to preach to me I feel less and less kinship with humanity. are we not all children of this planet no matter what we think? I guess I just dont get it and I never will. I think I am ok with that.

I'd let Jesus into my heart but he's just too big.

I am sorry, but this is just another reason why I will never stand behind organized religion. if there is any shred of truth to this, anyone involved should be ashamed.

Krisken said:

I'd let Jesus into my heart but he's just too big.

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Try some lube.

LordRendar said:

Try some lube.

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I would have, but I'm pretty sure the church disapproves.

Bones said:

I am sorry, but this is just another reason why I will never stand behind organized religion. if there is any shred of truth to this, anyone involved should be ashamed.

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Honestly, there are radical followers of any belief (religious, political, moral, environmental, etc.) that organize into crazy groups and do stupid stuff like that. It's not exclusive to religion.

Soliloquy said:

Honestly, there are radical followers of any belief (religious, political, moral, environmental, etc.) that organize into crazy groups and do stupid stuff like that. It's not exclusive to religion.

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there are environmental re-education facilities? who runs them?
EDIT: so you are saying we should ignore the fact that these wackos are allowed to act, because every group has a few? I thought the idea was to throw the bad apples out?

Bones said:

there are environmental re-education facilities? who runs them?
EDIT: so you are saying we should ignore the fact that these wackos are allowed to act, because every group has a few? I thought the idea was to throw the bad apples out?

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No, I agree with throwing them out. I just don't agree that their existence means that the entire broad idea of organized religion should be discarded.

And while I'm not aware of any re-education facilities, I am aware of kidnappings, fire bombings, and attempted murder in the name of environmentalism. But the existence of groups such as the Earth Liberation Front and Animal Liberation Front doesn't mean that organized environmentalism is a bad thing.

Bones said:

there are environmental re-education facilities? who runs them?
EDIT: so you are saying we should ignore the fact that these wackos are allowed to act, because every group has a few? I thought the idea was to throw the bad apples out?

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Yes there are, we call them Environmental Learning Centers, or ELCs for short, and they're usually run by environmental watchdog groups or (when required to do so) electric companies. Also, Boy Scouts and possibly Girl Scouts (if you find a GS troop that does more than go to malls and do makeovers, my wife's still bitter).

Gared said:

Yes there are, we call them Environmental Learning Centers, or ELCs for short, and they're usually run by environmental watchdog groups or (when required to do so) electric companies. Also, Boy Scouts and possibly Girl Scouts (if you find a GS troop that does more than go to malls and do makeovers, my wife's still bitter).

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That's an... interesting comparison. I guess a parent can force their kid to go to one of those as much as they could force them to go to that Christian re-education place, but... somehow it doesn't seem the same.

Mostly because of the "tie-them-up-and-force-them-to-go" aspect.

Soliloquy said:

No, I agree with throwing them out. I just don't agree that their existence means that the entire broad idea of organized religion should be discarded.

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I never said it was a bad thing, I just said that shit like that is why I, ME, BONES, will never support it. however in line with your last post environmental terrorism groups are not the same thing as forced environmental re-education. I am sure as an environmental scientist I feel the same way as anyone from another religious group would feel about their radicals. however, thankfully we don't USUALLY get bunched in with the loonies who have no conception of the importance of some of the more messy facets of science like animal testing. if someone asks do I like feeding rats chemicals to build a approximation of lethality and other effects I would respond, no I don't, but their sacrifice is better than the sacrifice of even 1 in a million human lives in order to quantify the effects of chemicals in the environment long-term.

Bones said:

I never said it was a bad thing, I just said that shit like that is why I, ME, BONES, will never support it. however in line with your last post environmental terrorism groups are not the same thing as forced environmental re-education. I am sure as an environmental scientist I feel the same way as anyone from another religious group would feel about their radicals. however, thankfully we don't USUALLY get bunched in with the loonies ...

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Yes it's nice that people are not lumping you in with environmental crazies, the way you do with religious crazies.

Covar said:

Yes it's nice that people are not lumping you in with environmental crazies, the way you do with religious crazies.

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I don't believe I ever said all people that believe in organized religion were crazy, I just don't agree with the idea of it. I would appreciate you not making such accusations without proof of my behavior.

They've tried to baptize Anne Frank again.

At the internet can be counted on for a measured, tasteful response:
alldeadmormonsarenowgay.com

evilmike said:

At the internet can be counted on for a measured, tasteful response:
alldeadmormonsarenowgay.com

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You know, I don't think the baptism thing is as horrible as everyone's making it out to be...

...but I still think that's hilarious.

EDIT:

Here's the thing though: by doing this, have they actually changed the Mormons' sexuality? Have they made them any less devout in their own beliefs, or any less eligible for their afterlife if they're actually (however unlikely) correct?

Or is this just inconsequential nonsense, which is exactly what I believe the Mormon practice to be?

The main difference is: the post-death Mormon baptism is done out of a genuine (though I believe misguided) concern for the souls of the deceased. That site, however funny of a point it makes, is done out of malice.

If we want to be a tolerant nation, we need to not be malicious towards harmless beliefs that we don't agree with. The ones that actually affect people (aka: the homosexuality thing) sure, but nonsensical inconsequential religious rituals? What does that do other than promote hatred between groups?

The "No take-backs." is what slays me.

Mormons are so gay.

Mormons love more men.