Humanity is inherently good and becomes selfish

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You are not selfish or wicked or evil or unkind. I understand why you choose many of those things though.

I do. I've been there. I've done those things.

I love you all. I want to love you all.

I'm so glad you're all here.

I just had a long discussion in which I argued for over an hour that human beings are inherently good and kind and loving and selfless. I did not win over my friend, who thinks we are naturally selfish and learn to be good.

But I think I'm right. S'good to see you.
 
No, no. It was a long and wearying conversation because I couldn't seem to make headway. I legitimately believe people are good and want to be good. I was surprised and saddened to learn that my friend thought people were naturally selfish.

I just wanted to affirm publicly that I love you all and I have the deepest belief that you and I and everyone is inherently good.[DOUBLEPOST=1359789049][/DOUBLEPOST]But seriously I also thought about that episode of Community and had a good laugh, DarkAudit
 
I currently enjoy being loving/kind/selfless/inherently good more than I enjoy causing suffering/misery/anguish/terror. I suppose if my upbringing had been different, things might have gone the other way around, but I have not yet been given sufficient cause to change.

--Patrick
 
Evolutionarily speaking, your friend is right. Just look at any child who hasn't learned the niceties of society. They are selfish creatures, who are looking out only for their survival. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that goodness and kindness aren't great things that society has ingrained in us. We may not be born good, but we have great propensity for it.
 
It's a difficult argument to have, because what looks good can be mere selfishness (I take care of my children now, and they'll take care of me later) and what looks selfish can be mere goodness (my kids may think I make them do their homework so that I look like a good parent, but I'm doing it to ingrain the habit of hard work which will serve them well as adults).

So much depends on ones perspective, that you could have nearly been arguing the same thing, but unable to see that because you both perceive the world differently.

Personally I believe I'll be happier in life if I assume good until proven selfish.
 
You might be interested in this:
.
It's about a study on whether babies know the difference between good and bad and what they prefer.

I'm sure MindDetective could offer some good info on this too.
 
Personally I believe I'll be happier in life if I assume good until proven selfish.
It's called "Tit for tat," and it repeatedly rises to the top as the best strategy for situations with any sort of social component (e.g., the Prisoner's Dilemma).

For people who want a serious treatment of this, you may want to visit Radiolab for their Good Show, where they explore what makes us "Good," and their Bad Show, where Evil gets the same treatment.

So there's about 2hrs of edutainment. Especially interested in hearing what MD has to say as well.

--Patrick
 
I swear I just read an article about this within the last few days. My personal feeling is that most people do seemingly selfless things for selfish reasons.
 
It's the reward that matters. I feel good about myself, my peers see me as a better person, someone is grateful for what I have done...push the right lever and get a pellet.
 
Alright, I'll try to make this quick, since I should be grading.

We could debate about what one means by "good" but what you're probably talking about is prosocial behavior, which is a less loaded term for altruism. We probably have evolved to be prosocial towards our "kin" as well as our "mates", both of which I think are flexible terms. Kin could mean one's children, extended family, neighbor, tribe, etc. or it might just be one's self in the cases of people that recognize no kin. As a general rule, most people probably do bond (or attach) to familial-like people inherently, though. That attachment is likely relevant to attracting mates, keeping mates around, and raising offspring successfully. Arguably, prosocial behavior (in humans and in other species) helps promote the long-term survival of a species by provided pooled defenses, resource gathering, care-taking of young, and mating opportunities. So I would say that yes, we are inherently "good" in that sense of the word.

But I think there is a flip side to this coin. Prosocial behavior is most beneficial when applied towards one's kin and one's mate but can be harmful when applied towards a stranger or a potential threat (such as a competitor from another tribe, a neighbor that might steal one's mate, or an intruder that might kill one's kin). So I would argue that we also have a propensity to be antisocial towards those that we view as not our kin or our mate. This creates a strong in-group/out-group polarization in which we will react positively ("good") towards loved ones and negatively ("bad") towards the "other". Both of these traits, I think, are inherent and selected for.

That said, I think there is some flexibility in defining one's kin and the "other". This is why people can be extreme football fans for a specific team, why political parties can both cohere and point fingers so readily, and why some people can dislike "the man" while simultaneously believing that all people are connected/worthwhile (or some such). People are just stretching or shrinking their in-group/out-group definitions in dramatically different ways. After all, what is considered "other" is no longer people outside the tribe. We left tribes behind a while ago. But we are very easy to sway along that dimension because it is a trait that probably is rooted deeply in each of us.[DOUBLEPOST=1359844638][/DOUBLEPOST]By the way, I wrote that post before watching Shakey 's video. nice to know Yale researchers and I agree. I guess I'll count them as kin.
 
I would argue that we also have a propensity to be antisocial towards those that we view as not our kin or our mate. This creates a strong in-group/out-group polarization in which we will react positively ("good") towards loved ones and negatively ("bad") towards the "other".
Oh, good. So it's not just Halforums.

--Patrick
 
I think it's dangerous to label people as inherently "good" or inherently "evil".

It would be more apt to say that we have the capacity to be either. If there's anything I've learned, its that people are never usually aware of how capable they are of committing both good and bad acts as shown through research and experimentation. It's easier to point to magical words that reduce human beings to simple descriptors than to actually face the truth that most people have the capacity to react negatively and positively given the right situations.
 
I think it has to do with the social contract.

In a social, collective environment, we are more likely to be willing to give up immediate personal gain for the benefit of the collective. Within reason, of course.

If we're on our own though, all bets are off, and we look out for number one.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Human beings are slavering monsters, barely held in check by a social contract which has built an unstable tower ever higher into the heavens, and one day it will all come crashing down. As one must teach a child not to hit, so are we indoctrinated into what makes a society possible. But to paraphrase the Joker, we're all just one really bad day away from snapping back to our true, uninhibited selves.
 
Human beings are slavering monsters, barely held in check by a social contract which has built an unstable tower ever higher into the heavens, and one day it will all come crashing down. As one must teach a child not to hit, so are we indoctrinated into what makes a society possible. But to paraphrase the Joker, we're all just one really bad day away from snapping back to our true, uninhibited selves.

So Hobbes was correct in his assesment of the state of nature. Bellum omnium contra omnes:
Thomas Hobbes said:
Whatsoever therefore is consequent to a time of war, where every man is enemy to every man, the same consequent to the time wherein men live without other security than what their own strength and their own invention shall furnish them withal. In such condition there is no place for industry, because the fruit thereof is uncertain: and consequently no culture of the earth; no navigation, nor use of the commodities that may be imported by sea; no commodious building; no instruments of moving and removing such things as require much force; no knowledge of the face of the earth; no account of time; no arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.
As I understand, you have been quite vocal in your defence of individual liberties. But if man is such a vile creature as you describe, then would it not be unwise to extend more freedoms to him, lest he use them to revert to the baseness that is his nature? Would not the social contract, backed by a strong central authority to punish miscreants, be a preferable arrangement?
 
One would assume that evolution would apply on the somewhat macro scale as well. So in a situation where humanity is spread thin across the countryside, evolution would select the independent, savage, antisocial individuals. In situations where large numbers of people are forced together regularly, it would be the gregarious, tolerant, social individuals who will survive.

When spread thin, the social ones will fade since they get no support/reinforcement.
When packed tightly, the antisocial ones will fade because the social ones will gang up and eliminate them.

--Patrick
 
One would assume that evolution would apply on the somewhat macro scale as well. So in a situation where humanity is spread thin across the countryside, evolution would select the independent, savage, antisocial individuals. In situations where large numbers of people are forced together regularly, it would be the gregarious, tolerant, social individuals who will survive.

When spread thin, the social ones will fade since they get no support/reinforcement.
When packed tightly, the antisocial ones will fade because the social ones will gang up and eliminate them.

--Patrick
I think I'll try that as a variable in some of my research.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
As I understand, you have been quite vocal in your defence of individual liberties. But if man is such a vile creature as you describe, then would it not be unwise to extend more freedoms to him, lest he use them to revert to the baseness that is his nature? Would not the social contract, backed by a strong central authority to punish miscreants, be a preferable arrangement?
You're forgetting also hate people. I also think we should remove all the warning labels off of dangerous things, and let the gene pool improve itself.

Seriously though - it's a balancing act, and one I feel is self-balancing. There's the upward push of humanity's desire to climb to better things, balanced against their bestial nature to kill everything they can't fuck. I favor extremely limited government because government itself is comprised of people (as Shepherd Book observes, themselves largely ungoverned), and wielding power often turns these people into tyrants of one flavor or another - be they self-serving or ubernannies. In other words, yes, human beings are inherently evil, largely uncorrected, and are able to do more evil the more power they have, and thus, should be trusted with as little power over each other as can be had without devolving into the anarchy that Hobbes describes.
 
One would assume that evolution would apply on the somewhat macro scale as well. So in a situation where humanity is spread thin across the countryside, evolution would select the independent, savage, antisocial individuals. In situations where large numbers of people are forced together regularly, it would be the gregarious, tolerant, social individuals who will survive.

When spread thin, the social ones will fade since they get no support/reinforcement.
When packed tightly, the antisocial ones will fade because the social ones will gang up and eliminate them.

Sounds convincing. But I believe an argument to the contrary can also be made.

When humans were still spread very thin on the ground, in stone age tribes consisting of a couple of hundred or so individuals at most, the survival of any single individual was contingent upon the support and protection he received from his fellows. Antisocial, treacherous, or down-right dangerous behavior directed at others would presumably have decreased the support the offending party received in the future, and in extreme cases could result in banishment from the tribe. Which would have been tantamount to a death sentence, as a flintstone spear made for a poor defence against a cave bear or a smilodon. Co-operation was necessary for survival, and given the low level of sophistication in conflict resolution mechanisms, such things as honor and reputation mattered for much (nowadays a person is given a fair shake in a court of law even if they are the scum of the earth and everybody knows it). Those traits are still in evidence among primitive societies today; I seem to recall how comparing results cross-culture in an anonymous dictator game (or some similar game, but it was anonymous), it was found that some mongolian nomads scored the highest points for altruism, though for the life of me I can't find the source.

Also, competition for resources has been identified as a major cause of conflict. A situation where there are fewer people around would leave more resources per person, thereby presumably diminishing the relevance of this particular cause and negatively affecting the cost-benefit analysis of the aggressor. The more people you have, the more competition there is, with a Malthusian catastrophy as the extreme (if outdated) example.

As to the modern condition where people are packed tight, I do agree that public (noticed) anti-social behavior is a very significant disadvantage. Witness the uproar over Mitt Romney and Bain Capital. But if we go with altruism, being 'good' and 'playing nice', then if those were the qualities that yielded an advantage in today's society, shouldn't we expect to see them in abundance in the people who are most successful? Because I'm not sure we do, or rather we might see their PR, but the reality might well be quite different.

Seriously though - it's a balancing act, and one I feel is self-balancing. There's the upward push of humanity's desire to climb to better things, balanced against their bestial nature to kill everything they can't fuck. I favor extremely limited government because government itself is comprised of people (as Shepherd Book observes, themselves largely ungoverned), and wielding power often turns these people into tyrants of one flavor or another - be they self-serving or ubernannies. In other words, yes, human beings are inherently evil, largely uncorrected, and are able to do more evil the more power they have, and thus, should be trusted with as little power over each other as can be had without devolving into the anarchy that Hobbes describes.

If I may, I'd like to ask a couple of questions to clarify.

You mentioned a self-balancing act between the evil nature of man, and 'the upward push of humanity's desire to climb to better things'. Do you mean that this upward push is something like a communal sentiment for social justice, indicating that man is not thoroughly wicked? Or is it some lesser form of Hobbes' social contract, where a group of selfish and vile creatures agree to mutually limit their range of options in order to gain a measure protection from the depredations of each other? Or did you mean something else?

Would your night watchman state have any mechanisms to address social, economic, and political evils in the interests of internal stability, or would it be left to the kindness of the elites to see to the less fortunate?
 
Fuck I am having a rough night and despite thinking about this all day, I just can't muster up the wherewithal to write my response.

I will. Probably. One day. Hopefully tomorrow.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
If I may, I'd like to ask a couple of questions to clarify.

You mentioned a self-balancing act between the evil nature of man, and 'the upward push of humanity's desire to climb to better things'. Do you mean that this upward push is something like a communal sentiment for social justice, indicating that man is not thoroughly wicked? Or is it some lesser form of Hobbes' social contract, where a group of selfish and vile creatures agree to mutually limit their range of options in order to gain a measure protection from the depredations of each other? Or did you mean something else?

Would your night watchman state have any mechanisms to address social, economic, and political evils in the interests of internal stability, or would it be left to the kindness of the elites to see to the less fortunate?
Even people like to live in houses and have electricity. That's not something you can have when you're all hunkered down in different caves throwing rocks at anyone who comes close. So the inherent evil nature of humanity can be (and admittedly is very often) overcome because bigger things can be achieved with cooperation.

See, I'm not saying every individual person is evil. By "inherently," I mean they start out that way and if left to their own devices tend toward that end of the spectrum. We do teach our children not to hit, and ingrain the social patterns of cooperation and altruism into them as a socially evolved mechanism to further society. Some people do a better job at that programming than others. But the benefits of cooperative society are such that it's usually worth it to conquer our baser instincts, but they're still in there. Lurking. Waiting for a reason to manifest... or at least for enough societal power to be concentrated in your own person that the consequences of being evil don't mean losing the benefits of society.
 
I think we need to clarify something. When people say "left to their own devices" are they saying letting children fend for themselves once they are able to walk?

Because otherwise it sounds a lot like an impossible hypothetical situation. Raising children without teaching them anything is simply not possible. Every action you perform has a lesson and learning opportunity, and children are biological learning machines.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
I think we need to clarify something. When people say "left to their own devices" are they saying letting children fend for themselves once they are able to walk?

Because otherwise it sounds a lot like an impossible hypothetical situation. Raising children without teaching them anything is simply not possible. Every action you perform has a lesson and learning opportunity, and children are biological learning machines.
What if you never punished your children when they hit each other, only when they made enough noise about it to inconvenience you? What do they "learn" then? And for that matter, at what point did you teach that child to hit?

When I say "Left to their own devices," I mean left to learn for themselves without enforced training about not being antisocial, selfish, and violent. If you don't make that concerted effort to teach "don't hit," "share your toys," "be nice," the child defaults to its natural state: evil. Lying, prejudiced, defiant, high-seeking, larcenous, murderous little sociopaths.
 
I think all people are inherently capable of immense good and wicked evil. I also think that everyone is selfish to some degree.
 
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