Humanity is inherently good and becomes selfish

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I could be wrong, but it almost sounds like your statements support my postulate rather than decrying it.
It's possible that I misunderstood your point as well. But my basic position is that co-operation, at least as far as individuals are concerned, is more important in smaller groups that are more widely dispersed, whereas with larger groups in closer proximity an individual might be more successful by being less altruistic, for instance through the Free Rider problem.

Basically, I think that in smaller groups the individual is best served through co-operating with other members, and by being mindful of their needs, and close proximity in general would increase interaction and foster stronger bonds. And with less such groups in a general area (spread thin), competition for resources is less intense and there is less need for conflict. When a population outgrows local resources, conflict is likely to ensue, and world history has seen several very violent migrations due to the original area of a people getting over-populated. Aggressive or treacherous conduct may serve well when there is extensive competition, and competition increases with population.

In a modern western society (large numbers of people and groups in an area), basic survival is pretty much guaranteed by the state through social security, law enforcement and so on, so there is no need for real co-operation anymore to secure survival. And if one wants to be really successful, altruism is IMO not the way to go, rather one would need to be ready to use their elbows and judiciously trample over people in their path as they climb their way up the ladder. I imagine the best traits to assist in this can be morally questionable.
Even people like to live in houses and have electricity. That's not something you can have when you're all hunkered down in different caves throwing rocks at anyone who comes close. So the inherent evil nature of humanity can be (and admittedly is very often) overcome because bigger things can be achieved with cooperation.

See, I'm not saying every individual person is evil. By "inherently," I mean they start out that way and if left to their own devices tend toward that end of the spectrum. We do teach our children not to hit, and ingrain the social patterns of cooperation and altruism into them as a socially evolved mechanism to further society. Some people do a better job at that programming than others. But the benefits of cooperative society are such that it's usually worth it to conquer our baser instincts, but they're still in there. Lurking. Waiting for a reason to manifest... or at least for enough societal power to be concentrated in your own person that the consequences of being evil don't mean losing the benefits of society.
Okay. So viewing this through a carrot-and-stick approach, your view is that people will be drawn to self-moderate their behaviour and co-operate voluntarily through the realization that working together with others is likely to bring more potential benefits than not, and that there is little to no need for the big stick of government to enforce such co-operation. I hope I understood your position correctly.

Fair enough, I guess. Though I personally imagine such an arrangement has a big chance of resulting in a rather predatory society wracked with instability, as the haves will monopolise power and influence, and the have-nots will viciously compete, to improve their lot or to simply survive. This is assuming we're talking about a society of millions of people, many with no means to support themselves.
 

GasBandit

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Okay. So viewing this through a carrot-and-stick approach, your view is that people will be drawn to self-moderate their behaviour and co-operate voluntarily through the realization that working together with others is likely to bring more potential benefits than not, and that there is little to no need for the big stick of government to enforce such co-operation. I hope I understood your position correctly.

Fair enough, I guess. Though I personally imagine such an arrangement has a big chance of resulting in a rather predatory society wracked with instability, as the haves will monopolise power and influence, and the have-nots will viciously compete, to improve their lot or to simply survive. This is assuming we're talking about a society of millions of people, many with no means to support themselves.
It when you start applying it to my political thought, you have to take into account I'm one of those guys who would rather starve free than be fed in chains. But I'm not an anarchist, government does fill a necessary role - it's just WAY overstepped its true utility. It should be there to enforce laws that keep us from directly harming or stealing from one another, and provide for mutual defense from invasion. But waaaaay further along the spectrum from that is where we are, in "bread and circuses" territory. This nation in particular was founded as an exercise in prosperity through personal liberty, to make economic mobility easy and attainable. That's the American dream - not the material house, car, dog and TV, but the concept that through dedication, intelligence, and taking advantage of the opportunities present you can get ahead by your own effort, without it being co-opted by a lord or other tyrant who would keep you a serf. There still needs to be a stick from government, yes... but it's anathema to the concept which gave rise to the American way of life for government to be deciding how to distribute the carrots. There is no scarier "have" than unchecked government.
 
I'm not an anarchist, government does fill a necessary role - it's just WAY overstepped its true utility. It should be there to enforce laws that keep us from directly harming or stealing from one another, and provide for mutual defense from invasion. But waaaaay further along the spectrum from that is where we are, in "bread and circuses" territory.
[...]
... but it's anathema to the concept which gave rise to the American way of life for government to be deciding how to distribute the carrots.
Ok, Gas. Now you're starting to sound like Al Gore.

--Patrick
 
True, but you did say that the role of Government should be to govern, instead of spending its time courting the wealthy looking for support in exchange for favors.

--Patrick
 

GasBandit

Staff member
True, but you did say that the role of Government should be to govern, instead of spending its time courting the wealthy looking for support in exchange for favors.

--Patrick
Well, while I agree with that, I don't think that's what I actually said.
 
That's the American dream - not the material house, car, dog and TV, but the concept that through dedication, intelligence, and taking advantage of the opportunities present you can get ahead by your own effort, without it being co-opted by a lord or other tyrant who would keep you a serf.
That's how I took this statement. That if government spends its time favoring the favored, then only the favored will ever be allowed to succeed. If those in power influence legislators to legislate against the up-and-comers (directly or indirectly) and the up-and-comers have no means to fight it, then success will only ever be had by those with sufficient influence.

--Patrick
 

GasBandit

Staff member
That's how I took this statement. That if government spends its time favoring the favored, then only the favored will ever be allowed to succeed. If those in power influence legislators to legislate against the up-and-comers (directly or indirectly) and the up-and-comers have no means to fight it, then success will only ever be had by those with sufficient influence.

--Patrick
Well, I suppose that's a valid corollary, but I was mainly using it as an argument against central planning, the welfare state, and government spending. IE, it's the government's job to keep out of your way as much as it can while still maintaining law, order and national security.
 
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