PS4 is revealed

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Bubble181

Bubble181

I have to say, the PS4 will have hardware that's....well, not all that astounding for a PC gamer. Yes, it'l lbe cheaper than a PC with the same stats ,but...The PS2, at least, was better than what you could get at the time as a PC.
Always-online for everything. Urk.
No backwards compatibility. Urk.
Cloud saving, no local saving. Urk.
Anyone who still believes there'll be second hand games (or support for them) is dreaming.

All in all, this is a console for the next generation, not for me. It's Sony et al. forcing us into a scifi-like future where I don't want to be. I don't want to ahve to rely entirely on things outside of my control to see what I can play. I don't want the console "guessing" what I'll want to play and downloading so it's ready to play when I buy it. I don't want my friends intruding in my games and bothering me. And I definitely don't want everyone and their dog to share every thing they do on facebook. The moment I see "Bob picked up a new rifle in CoD6! - posted from his PS 4" on my facebook is the moment I kick Bob off of my friends list.
 
Frank

Frank

Look, in some ways, it's just a mid, high end PC, but does your PC have 8 gigs of DDR-5 RAM? Mine sure as fuck doesn't.
 
Bubble181

Bubble181

Frank said:
Look, in some ways, it's just a mid, high end PC, but does your PC have 8 gigs of DDR-5 RAM? Mine sure as fuck doesn't.
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Most standard game PCs these days have 8 GB of DDR3 or DDR4, midrange/normal home use PCs often have 4 GB, I admit. But comparatively, this PS4 is the least "groundbreaking" of any of the Pss released so far. It'll take, what, a year, maybe two, before game PCs come with that or better as a standard? That's a lot faster than the PS or PS2.

Far said:
I don't know the veracity of IGN any more but there's this RE: used games.
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I don't think a lot of people think it'll come with a special "blocking" mechanism. I think they're going to try and sell most/all games digitally - and you can't resell Steam or GFWL/X-Live games, now can you?
 
Frank

Frank

Bubble181 said:
Most standard game PCs these days have 8 GB of DDR3 or DDR4, midrange/normal home use PCs often have 4 GB, I admit. But comparatively, this PS4 is the least "groundbreaking" of any of the Pss released so far. It'll take, what, a year, maybe two, before game PCs come with that or better as a standard? That's a lot faster than the PS or PS2.
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There is a silly gulf of difference between the speeds of DDR-3 and DDR-5. And you can't just compare the raw specs of a console vs a PC. It's never worked as a perfect 1:1 comparison.

All "ground-breaking" got the PS3 is being harder to develop for and the shitty versions of multi-platform games. They designed the thing to be easy for develop for.
 
Bubble181

Bubble181

Frank said:
There is a silly gulf of difference between the speeds of DDR-3 and DDR-5. And you can't just compare the raw specs of a console vs a PC. It's never worked as a perfect 1:1 comparison.

All "ground-breaking" got the PS3 is being harder to develop for and the shitty versions of multi-platform games. They designed the thing to be easy for develop for.
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I didn't disagree with you :p All I'm saying is that I have the impression that PCs will catch up with the PS4 faster than they did with the PS1 or 2. And yes, that is (at least partially) because they designed this one to be easier to program for.

As for a PC/console comparison: the only reason multplatform games don't completely blow away their console counterparts on PC, is because those games are designed for the console and tend to underuse the extras a PC provides; not because a PC can do less wit the same hardware.
 
Shakey

Shakey

Bubble181 said:
I don't think a lot of people think it'll come with a special "blocking" mechanism. I think they're going to try and sell most/all games digitally - and you can't resell Steam or GFWL/X-Live games, now can you?
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My guess is it will come with the ability to block used games, but it will be up to the publisher to decide if it will be used with their game or not. That way they can lay the blame on the publishers and not their console.
 
Tress

Tress

ThatNickGuy said:
I'm concerned about one thing: what happens to all the products I purchased already on PSN? For example, will I be able to carry over my PSN-bought copies of Double Fine's games or Limbo? I really, really hope so because otherwise, that's even more bullshit.
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Via Joystiq:
Sony Worldwide Studios boss Shuhei Yoshida just told our friends at Engadget current-gen PSN purchases won't transfer across to the PS4.

In last night's PS4 announcement, Sony revealed the new console won't have backwards compatibility for PS1, PS2, or PS3 discs, although the company aims to use the PS Cloud service to stream previous-gen games as a workaround.
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Frank

Frank

Bubble181 said:
I have to say, the PS4 will have hardware that's....well, not all that astounding for a PC gamer. Yes, it'l lbe cheaper than a PC with the same stats ,but...The PS2, at least, was better than what you could get at the time as a PC.
Always-online for everything. Urk.
No backwards compatibility. Urk.
Cloud saving, no local saving. Urk.
Anyone who still believes there'll be second hand games (or support for them) is dreaming.

All in all, this is a console for the next generation, not for me. It's Sony et al. forcing us into a scifi-like future where I don't want to be. I don't want to ahve to rely entirely on things outside of my control to see what I can play. I don't want the console "guessing" what I'll want to play and downloading so it's ready to play when I buy it. I don't want my friends intruding in my games and bothering me. And I definitely don't want everyone and their dog to share every thing they do on facebook. The moment I see "Bob picked up a new rifle in CoD6! - posted from his PS 4" on my facebook is the moment I kick Bob off of my friends list.
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They addressed the online only and all the social stuff.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-02-21-playstation-4-does-not-require-an-internet-connection

Basically it's not online required and you can turn off the social stuff.
 
Espy

Espy

I understand why they don't allow backwards compatibility but I do not understand why my PSN games can't transfer. Does it have anything to do with the architecture of the system?

Edit: Read Nick's link, looks like it's the guts that make it hard to transfer. I guess that makes sense. Still seems like it could be worked around.
 
Eriol

Eriol

Espy said:
I understand why they don't allow backwards compatibility but I do not understand why my PSN games can't transfer. Does it have anything to do with the architecture of the system?
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Going from Cell to X86 is a huge change IMO. I hope their intermediate layers make it an easier transition, but there's no guarantees, and could be very title-specific.
 
ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

I really shouldn't be forced to buy PS1 games again, nor should I be forced to buy Journey or Double Fine's games again. I'm not a technology expert, so I don't understand what's so hard about moving something digital to something else digital. It's the same platform.
 
Espy

Espy

ThatNickGuy said:
I really shouldn't be forced to buy PS1 games again, nor should I be forced to buy Journey or Double Fine's games again. I'm not a technology expert, so I don't understand what's so hard about moving something digital to something else digital. It's the same platform.
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It sounds like, and keep in mind I have ZERO idea how this works, that something in the actual... uh... processors/system architecture differs enough from the PS3 that the games won't play on the PS4.


Now, seems to me that they aren't going to just not sell all the crap they have on PSN to PS4 customers so I'm guessing at some point games will be for sale for PS3 or PS4. Whats bullshit is that if I own FF7 on PS3 I should, once it's available, be able to get it on my PS4. At least it seems like a obvious cash grab if they don't allow it.
 
Covar

Covar

ThatNickGuy said:
I really shouldn't be forced to buy PS1 games again, nor should I be forced to buy Journey or Double Fine's games again. I'm not a technology expert, so I don't understand what's so hard about moving something digital to something else digital. It's the same platform.
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square peg in round hole.
 
Eriol

Eriol

ThatNickGuy said:
I really shouldn't be forced to buy PS1 games again, nor should I be forced to buy Journey or Double Fine's games again. I'm not a technology expert, so I don't understand what's so hard about moving something digital to something else digital. It's the same platform.
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Think of it this way: would you expect to be able to put the same engine (game) you just had in a Ford (PS3) into a Toyota (PS4)? If you specially design both cars to begin with, then maybe you can, but otherwise, you're going to need to overhaul the engine (re-jig the game) or put a crap load of intermediate mechanics in there (compatibility layers) to make it work. It's not a "it's just digital" or anything like that.

The analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but a better one might be if you've ever tried to put a metric bolt into an imperial nut, or vice-versa. Digital compatibility is the exception not the norm.
 
Tress

Tress

I can appreciate there are difficulties in transferring the games over, but I would have liked Sony to take the time/effort/resources to make the games transfer over anyway. It is a priority to me, and to others apparently.
 
figmentPez

figmentPez

Staff member
Tress said:
I can appreciate there are difficulties in transferring the games over, but I would have liked Sony to take the time/effort/resources to make the games transfer over anyway. It is a priority to me, and to others apparently.
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Unfortunately console makers come at this, apparently, from the same type of mindset with which they view used game sales. They want their new console to have a high attach rate, to prove to publishers that games should be developed for their platform. They then conclude that every old game that can be played is a new game that isn't being played, and is thus a lost sale.
 
Tress

Tress

figmentPez said:
Unfortunately console makers come at this, apparently, from the same type of mindset with which they view used game sales. They want their new console to have a high attach rate, to prove to publishers that games should be developed for their platform. They then conclude that every old game that can be played is a new game that isn't being played, and is thus a lost sale.
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... which is a mentality that completely turns me off as a consumer. And so I'm going to keep voting with my wallet until Sony stops viewing customers as nothing more than mindless crops waiting to be harvested.
 
SpecialKO

SpecialKO

Tress said:
I can appreciate there are difficulties in transferring the games over, but I would have liked Sony to take the time/effort/resources to make the games transfer over anyway. It is a priority to me, and to others apparently.
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They do have hundreds, possibly a thousand, games in their digital library, and to this date have mostly relied on their developers' ability to re-code the games to run on new digital platforms (which is why some games on PSN are PSN-only, while some are PSP-compatible, and some are additionally optimized for Vita-play).

I agree that it's something they definitely should do, but it sounds like they are doing it, and a little patience is what's required.
 
Gared

Gared

I can understand wanting to have compatibility for older systems' games on the new system. I mean, you paid for all of those games, you want to keep playing them, you want to keep them around because some of them are like old friends that've been with you for years and years. But at the same time, have you ever tried playing a PC game from the PS1 era on a gaming rig from the PS3/4 era? Sure, there are ways to make it work. There's special software you can use to slow your 3.2GHz quad core down to 66MHz, so the game doesn't run too fast; and you can set the resolution of your monitor back down to 800x600 so there aren't massive black bands all around the picture and the picture isn't stretched out all to hell. But that doesn't necessarily make them good... or even playable, in some cases. I mean, it would be nice to see what some of the old games look like if they were upgraded to use the new architecture and the new graphics capabilities, but since so many of the games were programmed in such a way that they can't automatically scale themselves up to really take advantage of the fact that you now have 6, 8, or more Gigs of RAM when you used to have 12 Megs of it or or the fact that computers come with audio codecs capable of playing symphonies well enough that most people can't tell the difference between what a computer can play and what the actual symphony sounds like live when you used to have a semi-decent 3 or 4 octave range of scratchy-sounding beeps. Heck, most PS2 games don't even look any better in HD than they do in SD, and in some cases look worse because they just weren't designed to be displayed at that high of a resolution. Speculation on the specs of the new system is that it will be capable of supporting ultra-high resolution. Do you really want to see FFVII in ultra-high resolution? Also, it's not like Sony is going to force you to return your PS1, 2, 3, etc. in order to buy a PS4, so you will still be able to play your old games, if you have that capability now.
 
SpecialKO

SpecialKO

figmentPez said:
Unfortunately console makers come at this, apparently, from the same type of mindset with which they view used game sales. They want their new console to have a high attach rate, to prove to publishers that games should be developed for their platform. They then conclude that every old game that can be played is a new game that isn't being played, and is thus a lost sale.
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This is not quite true (at least the perspective you're approaching from). Console makers love backwards compatibility, in principle. It increases the value of new offerings and encourages customer loyalty to their brand.

Publishers hate backwards compatibility. For them, backwards compatibility means having to maintain support for old platforms that they no longer develop for, and since they've already sold the software once, they're not gaining anything (in their minds) by keeping it available for a new platform.

The problem is that Sony is both console-maker and publisher. Or more accurately, they have a console division and a software division, and they don't actually have the same goals. The Pub-side wants a high attach rate (for their titles at least), because that's indicative of their abilities to sell franchise releases. The Console-side doesn't care about attach rate (at launch anyways), because they don't sell according to attach rate (they don't even sell according to tie-ratio), they sell according to install-base and average spend per user.

What this means is that the console side has every reason to want as many previously-bought PSN games working on the PS4 as possible, while the publisher side is going to try and get away with as few as possible and re-sell everything.
 
Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

Gared said:
I can understand wanting to have compatibility for older systems' games on the new system. I mean, you paid for all of those games, you want to keep playing them, you want to keep them around because some of them are like old friends that've been with you for years and years. But at the same time, have you ever tried playing a PC game from the PS1 era on a gaming rig from the PS3/4 era? Sure, there are ways to make it work. There's special software you can use to slow your 3.2GHz quad core down to 66MHz, so the game doesn't run too fast; and you can set the resolution of your monitor back down to 800x600 so there aren't massive black bands all around the picture and the picture isn't stretched out all to hell. But that doesn't necessarily make them good... or even playable, in some cases. I mean, it would be nice to see what some of the old games look like if they were upgraded to use the new architecture and the new graphics capabilities, but since so many of the games were programmed in such a way that they can't automatically scale themselves up to really take advantage of the fact that you now have 6, 8, or more Gigs of RAM when you used to have 12 Megs of it or or the fact that computers come with audio codecs capable of playing symphonies well enough that most people can't tell the difference between what a computer can play and what the actual symphony sounds like live when you used to have a semi-decent 3 or 4 octave range of scratchy-sounding beeps. Heck, most PS2 games don't even look any better in HD than they do in SD, and in some cases look worse because they just weren't designed to be displayed at that high of a resolution. Speculation on the specs of the new system is that it will be capable of supporting ultra-high resolution. Do you really want to see FFVII in ultra-high resolution? Also, it's not like Sony is going to force you to return your PS1, 2, 3, etc. in order to buy a PS4, so you will still be able to play your old games, if you have that capability now.
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Someone better tell GOG about this.
 
SpecialKO

SpecialKO

CynicismKills said:
Yeah, there's a veritable ocean of torches and pitchforks on every Diablo/Blizz forum I've stumbled across.
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Rightfully so. I'm pissed off enough to want to play Path of Exile or Torchlight 2 just to spite those fuckers, and I don't even have real time for video games these days!

(or I might just go back to playing Spiral Knights)
 
fade

fade

Staff member
Hmm. I'm no hardcore gamer, and I'm not at all sure how to react at this point. Demos look nice, and hardware specs are decent. I'd like to have backwards compatibility, but really, why should I expect it to be there? It's a different system.

Does anyone know what this device will be capable of OTHER than games? I do have a PS3, but I don't have a huge amount of time to play it. Right now, for a consumer like me, it feels like the PS3 is missing non-gaming capabilities that I can use when I'm not using the gaming system. The ones that are there are outdated. It'd be a great HTPC if the software was there, for instance. That would be extremely attractive to me.
 
SpecialKO

SpecialKO

fade said:
Hmm. I'm no hardcore gamer, and I'm not at all sure how to react at this point. Demos look nice, and hardware specs are decent. I'd like to have backwards compatibility, but really, why should I expect it to be there? It's a different system.

Does anyone know what this device will be capable of OTHER than games? I do have a PS3, but I don't have a huge amount of time to play it. Right now, for a consumer like me, it feels like the PS3 is missing non-gaming capabilities that I can use when I'm not using the gaming system. The ones that are there are outdated. It'd be a great HTPC if the software was there, for instance. That would be extremely attractive to me.
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I suspect it will have all the various video streaming goodies, but no word on being able to play your own media files from what I have seen so far. Anyone hear differently?
 
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