http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/girl-shot-killed-by-brother-with-rifle-he-recieved-as-a-gift.php
if only that 2 year old was armedCNN said:
The only thing stopping a bad guy with a gun is a 5 year old with a gun
- Thread starter Charlie Don't Surf
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This is a case of horrible negligence.
let's just take a step back from my crazy ludicrous radical stance that people shouldn't own guns and just think about all the things you have to do to own and drive a car compared to all the things you have to do (hint: there are none except have enough money to buy one) to own a gun
I agree with this. People say things like "This is a case of negligence." Well, yeah, so is a car accident, we don't just let anyone strap themselves into a few thousand pounds of metal and hit the highway at 60mph. And the ones we do let still fuck shit up.
Why are we okay with gun 'accidents' if we can say "Oh, they just weren't the responsible flavour of gun owners"?
The same thing very well could happen with a car if the parents were dumb enough to leave the keys in it and allow the kid to jump in and play anytime he wants. But most people don't. They keep the keys with them, lock the car door, and more importantly don't let their five year old kid drive.
Yeah but this is more like buying the kid a car and then forgetting the keys in the ignition.
"Most people don't" may be true, but what is also is true is that all of those people are trained, tested and licensed. The quality of aforementioned training and testing may be up for debate, but when it comes to guns all you need is cash, unless you're under 12 in which case you also need a note from your mother.
Agreed.
We do, however, have no such restrictions on people buying bleach or other typical poisonous household chemicals, matches, or swimming pools, all of which can cause deaths of children if handled as irresponsibly by parents as the gun was here.
Sort of? He was taught the gun was a toy. It was bought expressly for him. I don't think parents buy bleach and show their son how to have a good time with it. The only on the list that comes close would be the pool, but the analogy sort of falters there too; one might play in a pool without adult supervision, the likelihood of drowning your 2 year old sister seems substantially lower.
GasBandit
Staff member
Point of fact, there is absolutely no regulation stating who can and can't buy/own/drive a car on private property, only on public roads.
Clearly the parents here were astoundingly irresponsible and negligent, and should probably be charged with endangerment. But if you are going to make this about gun control, then you're just a vulture making political hay.
Clearly the parents here were astoundingly irresponsible and negligent, and should probably be charged with endangerment. But if you are going to make this about gun control, then you're just a vulture making political hay.
The analogy works because they're all dangerous substances/items that parents should not simply leave out where children can get into them unsupervised, just because something isn't bought for a child as a toy doesn't mean they won't try to play with it.
I think it can be about both things. Our gun laws are ridiculous right now and these parents are horribly negligent. BAM. DONE.
GasBandit
Staff member
No. Well, I'll agree our gun laws are ridiculous, but not the way you mean.
But surely you agree if you are taught something is for you and fun then you're much more likely to play with it? They recognise it, they know what it is, they know it's theirs, they know, or think they know, how to use it...
That has nothing to do with the hypocrisy of saying deaths from irresponsible gun ownership means guns are bad/there needs to be more restrictions on them, but that ones from irresponsible handling of <toxic household chemical x> are just accidents and nothing needs to be done.
An interesting point IMO.
Btw, do you guys get "Canada's Worst Driver" (or a USA equivalent) down there? This show shows the complete lack of effectiveness the license requirements already enforce. It's both terrifying (especially when you realize a contestant is from the City I live in, luckily he didn't "win" either) and incredibly entertaining.
That's still negligence. No child should be given access to a gun and taught that it's a toy anymore than they should be taught that knives go in eyes.
Firstly, I feel that it does have suggest there should be regulations on them, such as, I don't know, we shouldn't create models made for children. Secondly, I never said this wasn't negligent. In fact, I agreed that this is a case of negligence. I am suggesting that we should limit the potential for this kind of negligence. You can't make the world a cushioned place, I understand that people, including children, will always be faced with risks, sometimes deadly ones. The adults here are negligent, and to blame for this. But holy crap are we okay with marketing and providing guns to kids? I hope we're not, personally.
I don't really care about toy guns being illegal. It's kind of messed up, but toy guns aren't going to kill someone. I'd let my hypothetical kid play with water guns.
This was AN ACTUAL .22 CALLIBER RIFLE for a kid. I'm not a gun expert, but I know from this article that that's definitely more than a BB and enough to kill a toddler in 3 minutes.
GasBandit
Staff member
There's a vast gulf of difference between "not okay with" and "should be made illegal." I myself was gifted my first .22 LR when I was 8 years old, by my father (my mother, humorously enough, hit the roof over it). I even attended a summer camp where children of age 10 and up had rifle lessons as part of their activities, not just shooting but cleaning, maintenance, and above all safety.[DOUBLEPOST=1367444525][/DOUBLEPOST]
.22 caliber is pretty much the lowest power "real" round out there. It's also cheap as hell. However, yes, any gun (including a compressed air pellet gun) has the potential to kill if misused, much like it's entirely possible for a 5 year old to kill a 2 year old with a screwdriver.
This is what I meant, not toy guns. I didn't mean 'model' as in toy, I mean 'model' as 'variety of'.
I was at a YMCA camp that did the same, also boy scouts I was a little older then.
I was also given my first gun around 8 or 9 (certainly not five). I was never allowed to have access to it without my dad present though. Shooting it was a bit of a rare event, maybe once or twice a month when we would go to my uncles, who lived on a large property in a rural area where you could fire guns safely without bothering neighbors. I wasn't allowed to touch the gun until I could recite all of the safety rules, and explain how each part works. All other times it remained in a locked cabinet.
My first .22 was given to me at 6 years old. I did not have unsupervised access to it even though it was mine. I was taught to respect ALL guns as dangerous until verified that they were unloaded and rendered into a safe condition (unloaded, bolt open, slide open, safety on) and even then to NEVER point a gun at a person or thing that you didn't intend to shoot. It still bothers me to this day when people are handling guns at a dealer and inadvertently point it at someone. The parent/parents are going to have to live with the knowledge that they caused the death of one of their children by NOT being responsible gun owners. I do feel sorry for them, it's going to be a terrible, terrible burden for the rest of their lives.
My first response to this story was anger, and I try to live by the rule that if my first reaction to something is rage/anger/hate, then I'm the problem. I think I spoke too soon, is what I'm getting at. While I am completely bewildered that there are guns marketed to kids, and that there isn't a licensing program for firearms, I cannot use this case, which as has been acknowledged, is one of distressingly awful negligence, to argue that such and such must be done.
It's a tragic story, emotions are going to run high. I actually agree with you that more gun control would be a good thing, but this isn't an example.
I had my first gun around 7 around 10 I for my first shotgun that was kept in my room. All of my kids got their first gun at 6 and they are kept in the safe in my room. With that being said neither 8 note my kids have ever shot anyone because my parents were responsible fun owners just like I am. And if my kids ever did shot someone I would hope I would be charged for the homicide fit my negligence. Now then, Charlie comparing driving to buying a gun is apples to oranges because one is a right and one is a privilege.
[quote="Charlie Don't Surf, post: 1047260, member: 247]
if only that 2 year old was armed[/quote]
Also. No charlie, just no. It's too soon for jokes like that.
if only that 2 year old was armed[/quote]
Also. No charlie, just no. It's too soon for jokes like that.
No, a child dying is just as funny as rape.
Not the first time this has happened in the last few months, either. Josephine Fanning was also recently shot and killed by a toddler, and there's that video of a 2yr-old shooting his dad in the stomach.
Clearly loaded weapons should not be left where toddlers can get hold of them. Ever.
--Patrick
Clearly loaded weapons should not be left where toddlers can get hold of them. Ever.
--Patrick
WHOA, WHOA, WHOA. Stop trying to take my guns away Comrade! I got freedoms and I will give my 2 year old a gun so they can fight the gumberment if I want!
GasBandit
Staff member
Thats my point exactly. Anytime there is talk about say, tightening up gun laws it becomes taking away "freedom" and "Hitler took their guns first!".
It's not extreme to want to see some basic, common sense gun laws that allow gun sales but work harder to stop them from being abused. However the NRA does a pretty damn good job of amping up the fear game whenever it's discussed.
It's not extreme to want to see some basic, common sense gun laws that allow gun sales but work harder to stop them from being abused. However the NRA does a pretty damn good job of amping up the fear game whenever it's discussed.
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