GasBandit
Staff member
My laptop physically closes, and then the camera isn't much good.
Xbox one
- Thread starter strawman
- Start date
Which is weird, because it's more than just internet activity and spending information. It's your emails, your texts, your location, the shops you stop at, the ones you pass up, where you meet your friends to hang out at, where you are planning to vacation at, what routes you take home and to work, where you work, how long you work, what you watch and when. All this could and probably most of it already is compiled by google. And that isn't invasive at all. Compared to what I do in front of my tv or watch.
All of which can be disabled (either through the phones, or if they are idiots, then through a third party app), and disabling does not disable the phone. As for some of that, well, this is why I don't text or get involved in Facebook.
How do you know it's really going to be disabled? MS has said there would be a privacy option, and that's written off as they'll probably track you anyways.
Off the privacy concerns, while Nintendo and Sony have both said that indie devs will be allowed to self-publish (and I know Sony at least has dropped the fees for updating or patching indie games on PSN), Microsoft does this:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/...blishing_problem_is_bigger_than_it_sounds.php
Basically telling indie devs to go fuck themselves or get in bed with a big publisher.
Considering how bitter so many indie devs seem to be at Microsoft already (just listen to the Fez guy, Jonathan Blow or the Super Meat Boy guys talk about the joys of working with Microsoft) their continued hardline stance is kind of baffling.
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/...blishing_problem_is_bigger_than_it_sounds.php
Basically telling indie devs to go fuck themselves or get in bed with a big publisher.
Considering how bitter so many indie devs seem to be at Microsoft already (just listen to the Fez guy, Jonathan Blow or the Super Meat Boy guys talk about the joys of working with Microsoft) their continued hardline stance is kind of baffling.
My television where the Xbone would theoretically go is in our great room and would have not only a spectacular view of that room but because of the open concept it would see the kitchen, dining area and kids playroom too.
Also, I don't need the Halbox9000 watching me get it on with my wife on the couch.
You are far too trusting of a giant faceless corporation that exists purely to make money.
Hitting the nail on the head my friend.
Kinect can be physically turned towards the wall. Same theory.
I know that everyone's basic instinct is to build vast conspiracies about such things, but this seems like a huge furor over very little information thus far.
It's not that I'm trusting. I'm just not going to freak out and start throwing out rumors that the new xbox will spy on me 24x7. Let's just wait until they tell us a little more about it, and see what it actually does at release, before we label it as some huge invasion of privacy.
That's just the whole Xbone shebang right there isn't it.
They let out a tiny bit of information, some of it contradicting, then put up the TBA wall.
Which could be because it's so early. A lot of the policies and decisions haven't been made yet. So a lot of people guess, or say what they've heard, and people take it as being written in stone. When it's really just ideas being thrown around.
Yeah, but that's why it's the best time to be vocal. If the policies aren't set in stone, tell them not to set the shitty parts in stone before they do.
Which is fine, and a good idea. It's just hard to take people seriously when the feedback ends up being something like "Screw the Xbone and screw microsoft. This is a shitty console and I'm not letting this near my house." All you get from that is there is no pleasing that person and no matter what they do they won't buy it, so why try to please them.
I wonder how many people here are as concerned about their phones with the camera, audio, location, and other feeds that can be used just as maliciously as they describe Microsoft is certainly going to use the Xbox one.
Phones which are also controlled by giant, faceless corporations whose only motive is allegedly pure greed and anti-consumerism.
I am an engineer. I applaud companies that go out on a limb and introduce new hardware with unlimited possibilities, even if some of those possibilities are bad. Then they let the users and publishers decide what the possibilities actually are.
Companies respond to pressure after the fact. When apples iphone wifi location data was found to be a usable, people stood up and demanded they change it, and they did. This was within a month or two of the new iOS release that contained this feature. It wasn't being used for user tracking, but it could have been, and so they made changes so that it couldn't be used for that.
Saying, "I'm concerned about the bad things this _could_ be used for" is one thing. Spreading rumors and lies about how Microsoft "obviously" plans to use it to invade your privacy is entirely different.
I simply don't see the point in attacking a new product for what it can possibly do when there's no evidence that it actually does that. Yes, they have a patent and now a box that can enforce viewer limits for content providers. But are they doing that?
Can't we have a little less guilty before proven innocent but you'll always suspect that they aren't quite as innocent as they proved themselves to be?
Until they actually start slaughtering babies, can't we have a little more perspective?
I can guarantee you they will never stream images or audio from the Xbox one to the Internet without your explicit permission, due to possible child protection violations. They simply can't afford a class action lawsuit, nevermind the horrible press it would incur, if they were ever to do so.
There a already significant protections we have from laws in the US, and they aren't going to be making special operating systems for other countries that break US laws. They might make special version the get rid of features Americans have due to local laws, but you can think of US law as a minimum bar all the Xbox one consoles will pass.
So, you know, chill.
It's a piece of technology that has as much chance of violating your privacy as your laptop, your cell phone, or any other Internet connected device with cameras and microphones you might have lying around.
Phones which are also controlled by giant, faceless corporations whose only motive is allegedly pure greed and anti-consumerism.
I am an engineer. I applaud companies that go out on a limb and introduce new hardware with unlimited possibilities, even if some of those possibilities are bad. Then they let the users and publishers decide what the possibilities actually are.
Companies respond to pressure after the fact. When apples iphone wifi location data was found to be a usable, people stood up and demanded they change it, and they did. This was within a month or two of the new iOS release that contained this feature. It wasn't being used for user tracking, but it could have been, and so they made changes so that it couldn't be used for that.
Saying, "I'm concerned about the bad things this _could_ be used for" is one thing. Spreading rumors and lies about how Microsoft "obviously" plans to use it to invade your privacy is entirely different.
I simply don't see the point in attacking a new product for what it can possibly do when there's no evidence that it actually does that. Yes, they have a patent and now a box that can enforce viewer limits for content providers. But are they doing that?
Can't we have a little less guilty before proven innocent but you'll always suspect that they aren't quite as innocent as they proved themselves to be?
Until they actually start slaughtering babies, can't we have a little more perspective?
I can guarantee you they will never stream images or audio from the Xbox one to the Internet without your explicit permission, due to possible child protection violations. They simply can't afford a class action lawsuit, nevermind the horrible press it would incur, if they were ever to do so.
There a already significant protections we have from laws in the US, and they aren't going to be making special operating systems for other countries that break US laws. They might make special version the get rid of features Americans have due to local laws, but you can think of US law as a minimum bar all the Xbox one consoles will pass.
So, you know, chill.
It's a piece of technology that has as much chance of violating your privacy as your laptop, your cell phone, or any other Internet connected device with cameras and microphones you might have lying around.
The patching and update fees are an issue with the big devs too. Konami has already said that the reason the 360 version of the Silent Hill HD Collection is in such an unplayable state is because they aren't willing to pay 10k just to put out a patch. They literally let people exchange the game for another Konami game (from a list) because it would be cheaper to ship out thousands of free games than it would be to pay Microsoft to put out the update.
Actually, if you have XBox Live (be it Silver or Gold), you've already signed away your right to enter a class action suit against Microsoft in regards to issues with your Xbox. It's in the EULA. You HAVE to go to arbitration if you have an issue and we all know how well that works in the US.
It all came about because of the PSN hacking thing that happened last year.
Why do we have to wait for them to do the crime before we can call them out on it? Should I let the drifter in my house because he seems like a nice guy and then worry about him slashing up my family later?
The fact is, filing the patent means they have intent to use it. They may never use it, for all we know, but the intent exists, otherwise they wouldn't have bothered with the patent. They have made it so "disabling" Kinect can not be done. They talk about "privacy setting" but never strait up say you can remove Kinect from the system, and they have pointed out that unplugging it will DISABLE the XBox. If it's not important or can be "turned off" why does it disable the system? Why do they praise how the system can be turned on with a voice command? That implies Kinect is always going to be on in some form.
Also, stop bringing up phones and laptops. Neither phones or laptops force me to use the camera to utilize the darn system. All of those can be disabled without hurting the main functions for why I got the system in the first place. Bringing it up is just trying to redirect the issue to something that is not at all comparable. Turning the camera around is also an annoying redirect, I shouldn't HAVE to turn it around just to play a game, I should be able to unplug it entirely.
All this whole thing has done is turned me off to getting the system at all. So at this point it's moot for me. I will not give Microsoft my money, and my only hope is enough other people do the same that such "innovations" don't happen again.
That can be dismissed in court for certain things. Criminal acts wouldn't necessarily be class action anyway. If Microsoft was found to be violating a child privacy law, they would be held accountable to a given state or to the federal government. The states might band together to form a class action, but since they never agreed to the Eula it doesn't matter.
The subsequent class action lawsuit to pay those that were affected by the criminal act might or might not be thrown out based on the Eula, but I doubt that a judge would say the Eula trumps criminal law for pain, suffering, defamation, etc.
All the Eula does is provide limited protection for Microsoft for civil suits users might bring up, and even then the Eula claise may still be dismissed for a particular case, or in a particular state, depending on a variety of factors.
To be fair, all of those industries would totally love to stop you also. They just don't yet have the technology to do so.
While this is true, Stienman's point still holds up. As much hell as I'll happily give Microsoft over consumer policies, support offerings, horrible design ideology, and piss poor PR management; they are extremely involved in the effort to eradicate the sexual exploitation of minors in general, and child porn specifically. And, while I can't give out specifics (some NDA's never expire), I can say that they're serious enough about it that they coordinate with all of their rival companies, and have very active relationships with the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children (NCMEC), and with just about every level of law enforcement around the world, and they use those relationships very, very frequently. One of my former team members used to be the NCMEC contact - until she moved to take up an IT position in a remote part of the US, partially because the mandatory weekly counseling sessions that came with her position weren't enough anymore.
That's hilarious. Patents have a value just on their existence, and a filing of a patent in no way means that a company plans to implement it. That's like claiming brokers love drinking Coke-a-cola because they make purchase in it's stock.
Coming up with ways a company might invade your privacy is mental masturbation.
When you tell me how to disable my iPhone camera that doesn't also apply to the kinect, then I'll believe they are different. Until then I recognize that I'm carrying around a device which could be, but isn't, used to spy on me. If I choose to buy an Xbox one, then I'll have to recognize that I have a device in my living rom that can, but doesn't, spy on me.
In either case, I still have a choice to buy it and plug it in, or not.
We can't even get one in our hands for months. We have no idea what it's going to have on it, other than games, apps and TV, and that it has hardware capabilities similar to an Xbox 360 with a kinect peripheral. We know that it will not perform some of its functionality with the kinect disconnected.
They will, however, have accessibility features that allow you to use it without the kinect, simply for those people that can use a controller but can't talk or hear, or those with limited mobility that prevents them from gesturing appropriately.
I'm quite certain you'll be able to turn the kinect around, or hide it behind a door and only have it pointing your way when you want it to, while still being able to use the majority of the system functionality, except for those games that require the kinect. If you don't want to be spied on, don't play DDR type games. Or don't buy the system at all.
I hear Toyota is coming out with a new car next year. Boy is it fuel efficient! It can kill more people per gallon than their last car, so we should really start complaining about this increased fuel efficiency which allows more deaths per gallon than the old model!
It's ridiculous.
I'm excited about the possibilities this new technology can bring to my entertainment experience, and we've got two or three people here who will NEVER be happy with it, and swamp the thread with cynical, negative commentary that has absolutely NO value. None.
Yes, we get it. It will end privacy in our living rooms as we know it. It will force us to pay more money for our games and movies. Our Netflix is going to cost more. It will send videos of our exercise workouts, complete with jiggling man breasts, to funnordie.com and ratemymoobs.com without my permission. It will kick the puppy, who will love it all the same despot the abuse.
Sure, it plays games, TV, and you don't have to look for YET ANOTHER STUPID REMOTE to change the channel or select a movie from your instant queue.
It'll be able to more accurately calculate your exercise calorie usage and your yoga poses by being able to track your heart rate, and balance on your two feet without clunky battery eating pads or straps.
It'll enable 3D video calling if someone stretches a little and creates an app for that, and it'll use less bandwidth than current 2D video calling because it can model and send 3D object information rather than 1080p30 video down the wire.
It can act as a security system. It can limit your child's TV watching and game playing time based on the child's face, including limiting what movies they can watch, without clunky codes you have to use when you want to break out of child mode.
But who cares about all that because obviously Microsoft is going to skip straight to stripping you of all your privacy and will sell your secrets to... Uh... Someone. Who needs to know what your heart rate was during that one scene in arrested development. Because then they can... Uh... I don't know. Sell you stuff? Make shows that are more entertaining?
I mean, what, exactly, is going to personally harm you? Assuming, that is, that you actually take one of these into you sacred dwelling?
The anger and hatred displayed in this thread is blind, and therefore automatically displaced and useless.
You might as well be tilting at windmills.
Some patents are bullshit, and designed specifically feed on others that want those patents. I don't see Microsoft as the type of company to put through patents for those purposes, and instead putting through patents for technology they may actually use in the future. We can agree to disagree in the end, but I am not going to give them the benefit of the doubt and just go with technology that I find stupid.
I mean really, simple fix. Let us unplug the Kinect system. Done. How easy is that? The fact they DON'T allow this is a telling fact.
You might as well be Amish.
I hate that a few people raise such a fuss about the infinitesimally small possibilities of negative outcomes that they actively hold back new technology and progress because they're worried about possible abuses.
Fortunately I don't think this will be the case for the Xbox, and quite frankly the kinect is amazing technology that will eventually impact how we interact with computers nearly as much as the multi touch display did.
Technological Luddites notwithstanding.
It could also be that they need to be able to tell the devs that yes, every unit will have a functioning kinect unit. That way they are able to design a game around the use of it and not have to worry about people that might not have it.
The Wii U also has a camera and microphone, but it's physically built into the unit. You can't unplug it either.
I'm not going to try to convince you to buy it, you have your mind made up. That doesn't mean that MS is doing something crazy here and has sinister motives. It's just the way electronics are progressing.
It's a secret plot so when M$ buys 3M, they'll make millions selling post-it notes to block their own devices.
Then don't allow those abuses. I have nothing wrong with Kinect, don't put words in my mouth like I think Kinect is the mark of the damn beast.
I find everything wrong with the idea I can't disable it", and that Microsoft has constantly danced around the wording of it to say "privacy setting" will be open with one mouth and then saying it will "always be on, always allowing you to boot up." with the other. Added with the patent info going out, why should I expect to just trust them at face value? Because the TECH is cool? I find drones pretty cool too, I don't really find them cool when someone uses them to look through my window.
At this point I am bowing out of this. I don't appreciate being insulted about my love of technology because I don't trust a mega-corp and the way they are handing some camera that must "always be plugged in, even when not required".
You see it as innovative, I can more agree with Leigh Alexander's take off being exactly the opposite.
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/192709/Opinion_Xbox_One_is_a_desperate_prayer_to_stop_time.php
Game consoles that can see you and the environment are simply more functional, and have inherent abilities that can enhance the experience.
There are some experiences a console simply cannot, nor ever will be able to, provide. And if putting the kinect behind a door in your entertainment center, or placing a small cardboard box on it is too much trouble to preserve your privacy, then I'd suggest that either you don't value your privacy enough to employ boxes and doors (might as well remove the bathroom doors while you're at it) or the value the console provides in other areas doesn't trump the small amount of labor you have to do to protect your privacy.
Neither situation really makes much logical sense to me.
I'm not buying it because its going to be too expensive.
If they provide excellent video calling capabilities, then I might consider it if I can convince my relatives to buy into such a system as well.
But beyond that I'm just not in the market for what will probably be released as a $500+ machine. I simply wouldn't get out of it what I invest into it.
However I'm still excited for what it means across a variety of industries. It's a platform for many neat technologies and capabilities, and if its hack able then we'll see amazing new uses for it we simply can't fathom right now. It's not groundbreaking, but the kinect hardware upgrade alone is worthwhile, and e fact that its being mass manufactured means it'll be relatively cheap compared to other similar hardware.
You're going to see students experience ting more with automated vehicles. More virtual reality stuff. Imagine a warehouse filled with people wearing oculus rift displays, and hundreds of high resolution kinects around the warehouse. You actually walk, run, and jump, the kinects track you, and the software changes your environment in subtle ways so you never run into another person, but you exist in the same virtual world, and experience more of the feeling of actually being in that environment because your body is actually sensing all the same movements and experience the vr headset is giving your eyes.
We can't do that know without millions of dollars of equipment. But throw in a few thousand for xbox machines, and a few hundred hours of code hacking, and you've got an entirely new thing.
There are some experiences a console simply cannot, nor ever will be able to, provide. And if putting the kinect behind a door in your entertainment center, or placing a small cardboard box on it is too much trouble to preserve your privacy, then I'd suggest that either you don't value your privacy enough to employ boxes and doors (might as well remove the bathroom doors while you're at it) or the value the console provides in other areas doesn't trump the small amount of labor you have to do to protect your privacy.
Neither situation really makes much logical sense to me.
I'm not buying it because its going to be too expensive.
If they provide excellent video calling capabilities, then I might consider it if I can convince my relatives to buy into such a system as well.
But beyond that I'm just not in the market for what will probably be released as a $500+ machine. I simply wouldn't get out of it what I invest into it.
However I'm still excited for what it means across a variety of industries. It's a platform for many neat technologies and capabilities, and if its hack able then we'll see amazing new uses for it we simply can't fathom right now. It's not groundbreaking, but the kinect hardware upgrade alone is worthwhile, and e fact that its being mass manufactured means it'll be relatively cheap compared to other similar hardware.
You're going to see students experience ting more with automated vehicles. More virtual reality stuff. Imagine a warehouse filled with people wearing oculus rift displays, and hundreds of high resolution kinects around the warehouse. You actually walk, run, and jump, the kinects track you, and the software changes your environment in subtle ways so you never run into another person, but you exist in the same virtual world, and experience more of the feeling of actually being in that environment because your body is actually sensing all the same movements and experience the vr headset is giving your eyes.
We can't do that know without millions of dollars of equipment. But throw in a few thousand for xbox machines, and a few hundred hours of code hacking, and you've got an entirely new thing.
I'd wager it's not worth their time/money to absorb and manage when it's not core business. Besides if it does well enough they would just make an official one, they already make accessories for their consoles.
figmentPez
Staff member
You're missing the part where the music industry pitched a fit when people started ripping their CDs to MP3 for personal use, and tried to make that illegal. How the movie and TV industry pitched a fit when people wanted to use VCRs to time shift broadcasts, and tried to make that illegal. And how the printing industry is still pitching a fit over online used book sales, and wants to make that illegal.
The game industry is not alone in trying to restrict how their customers use their product. Remember DivX (the disc format, not the video codec) that came out alongside DVD and would have made movie "purchases" just a two-week long rental? Remember when a company created DVDs that reacted to the air such that once you opened the package they became unreadable in ~48 hours? Or when publishers sued people for reselling textbooks purchased in a foreign market?
Pre-release sale price in Europe is €600 - about $780 by current conversion. Which I'm surprisied no-one has whined about - I think it's bloody expensive, and I'm fairly confident I can build a computer capable of running high-end games for less.
Correct, and they all failed because of public backlash. Which is why the outcry and backlash now is so important.