[News] The Death Penalty's Slow But Seemingly Sure Decline

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Tress

Tress

For me, the biggest problem has always been the possibility of executing the wrong person. That is a mistake that cannot be fixed or reversed. If the government lawfully sentences 100 murderers to death, and even 1 is actually innocent, then that is too much for me.
 
Gilgamesh

Gilgamesh

Some people aren't worth keeping alive. They aren't rehabilitable, they aren't sorry for what they did, they openly say they'll do it again if they had the chance and they cost way more money than they're worth to keep around.

Glad I live in Texas.
 
Tress

Tress

Gilgamesh said:
Some people aren't worth keeping alive. They aren't rehabilitable, they aren't sorry for what they did...
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I agree, but how do you determine who those people are, beyond a shadow of a doubt? Obviously this question would only apply to people who have not confessed and are not mentally retarded or disturbed.
 
Gilgamesh

Gilgamesh

Tress said:
I agree, but how do you determine who those people are, beyond a shadow of a doubt? Obviously this question would only apply to people who have not confessed and are not mentally retarded or disturbed.
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You trust the system.
Does it make mistakes? Sure.
Does it need improvement? Sure.
Is it what we have in place and better than the ones in place before it? Yep.
 
GasBandit

GasBandit

Staff member
Funny how so many trends seem sure until suddenly they aren't. We're oohhhh so feckin civilized now, aren't we, eh? With our comfy prisons and soft judges and unenforced laws and declining use of the death penalty. There's a bad day a'comin, when we'll all look back at how smug we were in our grandiose assessment of ourselves, and wonder how we could have ever been so blind to the devastating storm coming in over the horizon.
 
Dave

Dave

Staff member
I disagree with your assessment, Gas. There's just way too many instances - even today with our DNA capabilities - where people are being jailed wrongly. Yes, race plays a part but by far the greatest threat to a suspect is their socioeconomic level. Those who can afford lawyers get off with startling frequency while those who have to rely on public defenders get railroaded because the PD's just can't keep up and can't spend the time necessary on cases. Add in the legions of politicians who keep making cuts to public defense programs as it makes them look "soft on crime" and you have a devastating storm already in our "justice" system.
 
PatrThom

PatrThom

Gilgamesh said:
Any system anywhere anytime will make mistakes. It's part of being human. Nothing is perfect but again, for the type of people I described, I'm 100% for it.
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Agreed. As a society and a species, we can afford to lose a small percentage to these accidental convictions. Does it ruin families? Sure. Do I find it distasteful? Yep. But I believe wholeheartedly that there are times when killing someone would be perfectly justifiable...sometimes even before any crime* is committed.

--Patrick
*Defined as an instance where an active law is broken.
 
Tress

Tress

PatrThom said:
Agreed. As a society and a species, we can afford to lose a small percentage to these accidental convictions.
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Holy shit.

It's real easy to be cavalier when it's not you or a loved one wrongfully convicted and sentenced to death. I bet you'd be singing a different tune if it was you.
 
Bowielee

Bowielee

;I don't understand how people can be comfortable with "acceptable losses" when it comes to murdering innocent citizens.
 
Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

PatrThom said:
Agreed. As a society and a species, we can afford to lose a small percentage to these accidental convictions. Does it ruin families? Sure. Do I find it distasteful? Yep. But I believe wholeheartedly that there are times when killing someone would be perfectly justifiable...sometimes even before any crime* is committed.

--Patrick
*Defined as an instance where an active law is broken.
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haha, wow, you are a monster
 
PatrThom

PatrThom

Tress said:
It's real easy to be cavalier when it's not you or a loved one wrongfully convicted and sentenced to death. I bet you'd be singing a different tune if it was you.
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You DID read my next sentence, right?
PatrThom said:
Does it ruin families? Sure. Do I find it distasteful? Yep.
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I can unequivocally state that I'm one of the nicest, most tolerant, and compassionate human beings you might ever meet. This does not prevent me from being able to see the truth of the law of large numbers. It is inescapable Truth. You or I may not like it, but as we have often discussed around here, no amount of wishing or Faith can change Facts, no matter how distasteful.

--Patrick
 
GasBandit

GasBandit

Staff member
He just has the appropriate perspective on the actual value of human life. And the knowledge of what the lesser of two evils really is.
Tress said:
Holy shit.

It's real easy to be cavalier when it's not you or a loved one wrongfully convicted and sentenced to death. I bet you'd be singing a different tune if it was you.
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You couldn't have found a more subjective rebuttal. Granted, it could be called appropriate since you were responding to an opinion... but still "if it were you you'd feel different!" utterly fails to move most rational people.
Dave said:
I disagree with your assessment, Gas. There's just way too many instances - even today with our DNA capabilities - where people are being jailed wrongly.
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"Way too many?" How many is it, or is that just your gut feeling? What number would be acceptable to you? Is there ANY number acceptable to you?
Bowielee said:
;I don't understand how people can be comfortable with "acceptable losses" when it comes to murdering innocent citizens.
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And I don't understand how some people can be comfortable with letting someone who has a repeated, demonstrable tendency to horrific acts either out amongst the populace again or be maintained at their expense for the rest of their days.
 
Dave

Dave

Staff member
GasBandit said:
"Way too many?" How many is it, or is that just your gut feeling? What number would be acceptable to you? Is there ANY number acceptable to you?
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Do I have statistics? No. Is it just a gut feeling? No. I could cite specific cases but I'm not going to bother because your mind is made up (as is mine) and it would be a waste of time.

As to the second, no innocent person jailed is acceptable, but it's not a black & white issue in most cases. Almost all incarcerated say they are innocent or railroaded in some way. It's very, very hard to know sometimes where the truth of innocence ends and the self delusion or lies begins. But I do know that the lower sides of the socioeconomic spectrum are far more likely to be incarcerated for minor or stupid reasons and the punishments are more likely to be higher than their higher-tiered counterparts.
 
Bowielee

Bowielee

GasBandit said:
He just has the appropriate perspective on the actual value of human life. And the knowledge of what the lesser of two evils really is.

You couldn't have found a more subjective rebuttal. Granted, it could be called appropriate since you were responding to an opinion... but still "if it were you you'd feel different!" utterly fails to move most rational people.

"Way too many?" How many is it, or is that just your gut feeling? What number would be acceptable to you? Is there ANY number acceptable to you?

And I don't understand how some people can be comfortable with letting someone who has a repeated, demonstrable tendency to horrific acts either out amongst the populace again or be maintained at their expense for the rest of their days.
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I'd rather a million guilty people rot in a cell than one innocent person die.
 
Chad Sexington

Chad Sexington

Truthfully, as a 'rational' person, there is no argument that could sway me to support the death penalty. I believe it is wrong, I don't believe we have the right to determine when a human life should end. This isn't to say all killing is wrong: self defense, war, etc. But once we have control of their freedom, even if it was demonstrable to me that beyond a shadow of a doubt they were guilty of some heinous shit, that it would be far cheaper to execute them than sustain their lives, I would still be opposed to execution.

It conflicts too greatly with how I see life. Obviously this is more philosophical for me than some in this thread, but even points like Gas' statement that PatrThom has the 'appropriate perspective on the actual value of human life' is a statement of belief. That is not something that has an according-to-Hoyle value.

I think this conversation also has to do with one's view on what justice is, but I haven't even had my coffee yet this morning, so I'll leave it there for now.
 
DarkAudit

DarkAudit

Given the cost of the appeals process, is there any monetary savings between the death penalty or life w/o parole?

One could build a couple more Supermax style prisons for the truly hopeless cases. No visitors, no radio, TV, or books/magazines/newspapers. No contact with another human being for the rest of their life. They will be permitted a continued existence only. Food, clothing and basic hygiene needs will be met, but nothing else. Ever.
 
sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

DarkAudit said:
Given the cost of the appeals process, is there any monetary savings between the death penalty or life w/o parole?

One could build a couple more Supermax style prisons for the truly hopeless cases. No visitors, no radio, TV, or books/magazines/newspapers. No contact with another human being for the rest of their life. They will be permitted a continued existence only. Food, clothing and basic hygiene needs will be met, but nothing else. Ever.
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I'd rather die.
 
PatrThom

PatrThom

Charlie Don't Surf said:
haha, wow, you are a monster
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Aren't we all, in our own way? I'm sure we could easily find ways to hate and absolutely despise each other (chewing too loudly, clipping toenails in bed, leaving hair on the soap, empty milk cartons in the fridge, whatever). We are all still going to be exactly the same people after the discovery.

I'm sure many of us have had people immediately and instantly start hating you/unfriending you/etc. the moment you came out as gay/pro-life/Christian/whatever even though it's not like you weren't already those things months and months previously while you were still best friends. BUT now they know, and so now they hate you.

--Patrick
 
Cog

Cog

Gasbandit is right about that some people should die. But how can you simply see the possibility of a innocent person getting killed and say "shit happens"?. There are some cases when we can be 100% sure that someone is guilty (dna, several witnesses, etc), why don't you just kill those cases?
 
GasBandit

GasBandit

Staff member
Cog said:
Gasbandit is right about that some people should die. But how can you simply see the possibility of a innocent person getting killed and say "shit happens"?. There are some cases when we can be 100% sure that someone is guilty (dna, several witnesses, etc), why don't you just kill those cases?
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Because there have been cases where we were "100% sure" someone was guilty and they weren't. The only, only way to ensure no one is put to death who is later found to be innocent is not to put anyone to death at all, and that's just a price many are not willing to pay.

And really, the way our justice system works, certainty doesn't enter into sentencing - only how heinous and egregious the crime of which they have been convicted.

Remember, we have a legal system, not a justice system. It's going to get it wrong sometimes. The guilty go free, the innocent are convicted, and we put up with all of it because the alternatives are either anarchy or a police state.[DOUBLEPOST=1372449568][/DOUBLEPOST]
Charlie Don't Surf said:
Since that's still barbaric and cruel and unusual punishment.
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"Cruel and unusual" is a silly term. If it isn't cruel, it isn't really punishment, and if it isn't unusual, it has no impact. Does punishment concern someone who is "routinely" punished?
 
Cog

Cog

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Since that's still barbaric and cruel and unusual punishment.
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Yes it is. But for people like Gas, life in general is not important (or some lives are more important than others). So, taking that into consideration, he should agree that if you are going to kill someone, at least you have to be sure. Not reasonably sure, but 100% sure. (I should start using the reply button)
 
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