I don't think PA's Gabe is a Transphobic Bigot.

Bowielee

Bowielee

After watching PA the series, I can totally chalk this up to Gabe simply being ignorant to the issue. Dude is so sheltered.

I was going to hold my tongue about the issue of names and how not being part of a minority has no bearing on the effect of the insult, but to call the N-word equivalent to honky is beyond stupid. One holds the power of a history of descrimination and horror while the other is as innefectual as it is stupid. I can speak in particular to the breeder/"nice gay person" issue. I don't see many teenagers killing themselves because they're called breeders on a regular basis, but I sure as hell do see kids kill themselves because of the other word.
 
strawman

strawman

Bowielee said:
I sure as hell do see kids kill themselves because of the other word.
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They aren't committing suicide because of the word, they are doing so because they are being actively shunned by society. And, as point of fact, kids are killing themselves because they are being seen as and called geek, nerd, stoner, otaku, and other words without the rich racial, ethnic, religious, and sexual history you and others seem to hold in special esteem. It's more the age than the word and the social class they've been assigned to. Past the age of 25 suicide drops significantly, which is part societal, and part just a matter of growing up.

Stop blaming the words, they are merely a symptom of the problem. Getting rid of the words does not actually solve the problem, any more than adding anti itch cream solves anaphylactic shock.

Also, you might as well take breeder off the table when you choose to compare insults, because its quite obvious you have no idea how society treats those with large families.
 
Bowielee

Bowielee

stienman said:
They aren't committing suicide because of the word, they are doing so because they are being actively shunned by society. And, as point of fact, kids are killing themselves because they are being seen as and called geek, nerd, stoner, otaku, and other words without the rich racial, ethnic, religious, and sexual history you and others seem to hold in special esteem. It's more the age than the word and the social class they've been assigned to. Past the age of 25 suicide drops significantly, which is part societal, and part just a matter of growing up.

Stop blaming the words, they are merely a symptom of the problem. Getting rid of the words does not actually solve the problem, any more than adding anti itch cream solves anaphylactic shock.

Also, you might as well take breeder off the table when you choose to compare insults, because its quite obvious you have no idea how society treats those with large families.
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Actually, many of the labels you just mentioned do carry just as much of a history, particularly geek and nerd. I would put them on the same level of being emotionally destructive as any other insult. Breeder and honkey do not hold the same weight. They simply don't.
 
Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

I started typing up a post defending Bowie, but then I remembered that people with large families are more discriminated against that homosexuals, and I didn't want to come off as ignorant.
 
Bowielee

Bowielee

I would certainly like to hear about how constantly being called a breeder led to emotional damage for Steinman. I'm sure it was just as bad as when I was harrassed in high school for being gay. Yup, I'm sure it's completely equivalent.

I do have to add, that yes, in some situations, such as a white student being the only white student and constantly called a Honkey would be just as hurtful as the opposite. Same would be if there was some sort of alternate reality high school where everyone were gay.
 
strawman

strawman

Except I am not comparing the severity of discrimination between the two. If you read carefully you'll note I was discussing being called a geek, etc when I was discussing discrimination against large families.

I'm not attacking you, nor am I trying to dismiss your trauma or difficulties.

Why are you so dismissive of the discrimination others face?

Are you arguing against my main point, that we need to attack the problem, and that the words are merely a symptom of the problem? Are you seriously trying to say that we can ignore the main problem, and that if we get people to stop using those words everything will be fine?

I don't understand what exactly, if anything, you are trying to communicate. As far as I can tell you are simply laughing at me.
 
Bowielee

Bowielee

The discussion is about how much weight insults hold.[DOUBLEPOST=1371877733][/DOUBLEPOST]The false equivalency I'm talking about is this:

Me calling you a breeder != you calling me a fag.[DOUBLEPOST=1371877778][/DOUBLEPOST]That doesn't make me more "right" to call you a name at all, but the two are not equal.
 
Shawn

Shawn

This is really kind of ridiculous isn't it? Does the Trans-Gender community get their panties (or underpants as the case may be) in such a twist over anytime someone with a huge media presence assumes that a game about masturbation, that only features vaginas, is marketed towards women? My apologies if you're a once-a-dude with a vagina now. Please. Stop being a fucking dumb-ass and buy the game for yourself if you need an education how to work the thing. Yes you now qualify for the game. No one's judging. We all make assumptions based on what we perceive is "normal". He apologized for not considering every single possibility before he made his statement. And yet people are still on him. I've made plenty of unintentionally insensitive remarks in my day. I've called a trans-gender male "Sir" before because honestly I had no idea what to call him. It's pretty much a double-edged sword with people with pissy attitudes because they may take offense to anything you say. For all I know calling him "Mrs" would have been just as bad if he was completely fine with his sex, and just liked to dress in women's clothing. It's like asking someone in a wheelchair if they would like help with the doors. Most of them will be appreciative of the extra help, but then there are a few who are going to call you a bigot or something worse for telling them they aren't good enough to help themselves.

Grow... the... fuck... up. If you are of a minority group, please realize that most people are ignorant to how you would like to be treated. Give them a chance to fucking learn.

And my apologies. I just insulted every illiterate person in the world with this insensitively typed message. And also my apologies to those who don't read in English either, as I've completely screwed you guys over too.
 
Bowielee

Bowielee

Cisgender. It's the opposite of Transgender.

I had to look it up, and I probably know ten times more transgendered people than most people in general.
 
Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

The transgender people I've known don't get pissy about this small scale of stuff.

But their friends do. And people who don't know them, but insist on speaking out for them, loudly and abrasively, and insisting that language be vague.

stienman said:
And I never said they were equal.
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Your big post implied they're equally irrelevant, because the problem is the ostracizing behind the words and not the words themselves. That's an oversimplification and ignoring how humans use words to communicate ideas. If someone called Bowie a batty man, odds are he's not going to give a shit, because that's not a hate word in our culture. In Jamaica, it's the equivalent to f*****. Now, if someone called him that, I'm guessing it would have an effect.

It doesn't just go away because you're over 25 and it does matter.

Why couldn't you guys sort this out for yourselves? I wanted to keep making snarky posts, but now I'm involved, so I can't use my bit about how we divide up the child-bearing people at my work into the hierarchy of breeders (who have children), bredders (who have had children but aren't having new ones), the bredless (those who don't have children, but want to), and the bredbashers (who are persecuting all the others by their choice of not having children and not wanting them). Then there's the bred (people who were the children of someone else but are unable to have children themselves for one reason or another and so will always be seen as those who were bred from someone else).
 
Silent Bob

Silent Bob

Shawnacy said:
This is really kind of ridiculous isn't it? Does the Trans-Gender community get their panties (or underpants as the case may be) in such a huff over anytime someone with a huge media presence assumes that a game about masturbation, that only features vaginas, is marketed towards women? My apologies if you're a once-a-dude with a vagina now. Please. Stop being a fucking dumb-ass and buy the game for yourself if you need an education how to work the thing. Yes you now qualify for the game. No one's judging. We all make assumptions based on what we perceive is "normal". He apologized for not considering every single possibility before he made his statement. And yet people are still on him. I've made plenty of unintentionally insensitive remarks in my day. I've called a trans-gender male "Sir" before because honestly I had no idea what to call him. It's pretty much a double-edged sword with people with pissy attitudes because they may take offense to anything you say. For all I know calling him "Mrs" would have been just as bad if he was completely fine with his sex, and just liked to dress in women's clothing. It's like asking someone in a wheelchair if they would like help with the doors. Most of them will be appreciative of the extra help, but then there are a few who are going to call you a bigot or something worse for telling them they aren't good enough to help themselves.

Grow... the... fuck... up. If you are of a minority group, please realize that most people are ignorant to how you would like to be treated. Give them a chance to fucking learn.

And my apologies. I just insulted every illiterate person in the world with this insensitively typed message. And also my apologies to those who don't read in English either, as I've completely screwed you guys over too.
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I think the issue is the whole woman vs female thing that Gabe was confused about. The thing people got pissed at him about was because in the trans community a woman isn't defined by having a vagina.[DOUBLEPOST=1371903655][/DOUBLEPOST]
Bowielee said:
The discussion is about how much weight insults hold.[DOUBLEPOST=1371877733][/DOUBLEPOST]The false equivalency I'm talking about is this:

Me calling you a breeder != you calling me a fag.[DOUBLEPOST=1371877778][/DOUBLEPOST]That doesn't make me more "right" to call you a name at all, but the two are not equal.
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I don't think anyone ever said anything about the equality of insults; just that it's not ok for Gay people to call other people breeders on the pretense that "your group is discriminated" so it's ok.
 
Shawn

Shawn

Silent Bob said:
I think the issue is the whole woman vs female thing that Gabe was confused about. The thing people got pissed at him about was because in the trans community a woman isn't defined by having a vagina.
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I'm sure he'll remember that next time he comes across another game that shows you how to properly self-titillate a vagina. At this point I'm sure he'll risk sounding stupidly redundant/imbecilic when he announces it as a "game for women OR men WITH vaginas.". Luckily for him those who are aware of why he's saying it that way probably won't laugh at his expense. Probably.
 
DarkAudit

DarkAudit

Apropos of nothing, but I knew I was at the U of Michigan when I saw a "Gender Neutral Restroom" sign. You'd never see one of those at WVU or Marshall.
 
Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

SpecialKO said:
His critics would have been much better off laughing at his expense instead of attacking him for his ignorance. He might have even joined in eventually.

Sometimes, that shit can actually work.
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She makes an important note that is often missed:

many of the guys who are behind that stupid, constant crap are totally decent, open-minded human beings who just don’t realize they’re doing it.
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It's better to see where a person is coming from first and foremost. Calling someone an asshole when they're actually ignorant is a good way to turn them into an asshole. Of course, there are pre-disposed assholes out there, but assuming a person is one of them right off the bat isn't a good method to improve things.[DOUBLEPOST=1371914538][/DOUBLEPOST]
DarkAudit said:
Apropos of nothing, but I knew I was at the U of Michigan when I saw a "Gender Neutral Restroom" sign. You'd never see one of those at WVU or Marshall.
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We didn't have those at my college, but nobody seemed to care that girls came in the men's room if there was a line at the women's room. Or if they identified as male. Or if they knew a guy who was going in. Or if the men's room was closer.
 
Zappit

Zappit

Staff member
Hey, yeah and all that. You wanna swap your bits, go ahead. No judgement here. But I just can't fault Gabe for assuming that a game about one specific set of bits would be marketed to folks with those certain bits. You don't have those bits but identify with them? Then you can get those bits, and you're golden with that game that nobody will probably ever play.

This group started a conversation with Gabe, who made a pretty fair assumption. It escalated into aggression pretty quickly, including a series of, "But how about..? Oh, but now what about..? And now what about..?" And put him in a frustating no-win situation, then came death threats and attacks on his business, and he was justifiably angry.

As for that panel, they didn't want to stifle free speech, but they certainly reserved the right to mock it (and themselves) after. They usually do that anyway.

It just feels like going after Don Rickles for being a racist. There was no malice in his original statements.
 
ScytheRexx

ScytheRexx

I am not going to get into the whole nature of insults discussion. I don't think any insult is a good one, and I find the idea that we need to spend so much time rating the insults to be a waste of time. Instead I will focus on Gabe and why I think he sometimes digs these holes for himself.

Gabe in many ways reminds me of myself. I am not very talkative around here, and one of the reasons why is because I can get overly defensive when people start calling me things that either don't line up with my outlooks or are just in general designed to inflame me. The problem is when you get caught up in the heat of just defending yourself or attempting to "get back" at the person that made you angry, you end up sometimes saying things you don't really mean.

The only example I can give is fighting with the spouse. There are some days once in a blue moon my wife and I would fight, usually over something trivial like the plot of a movie or the meaning of a scene (that is the problem with both of us going to school for film development). During these fights depending on how hard we want to "win" the argument we sort of start pulling the bottom of the barrel in terms of ammunition. She would be so bold as to call me a "Retard" and I would in turn called her a "Bitch". We would at some point reach where we can no longer continue the discussion because neither side will give in, instead get out our frustrations in other ways, calm, and apologize to each other. Then have some great sex.

Now imagine that problem magnified by a million and without any easy way to reconcile it. Gabe is one of two figures for a huge empire engrossed in gaming and it's culture. Anything he says will be scrutinized by every subsection of the culture. The problem is that instead of stepping back and attempting to gauge why it's an issue when these things appear, he feels like he is getting attacked, throws up the shield of cynicism, and loads the aggression canon full of anything he can to make the other side be the "wrong one", and once he fires the first shot the whole "kingdom of gaming" explodes into civil war.

I spent years understanding the nature of how I can turn into an asshole like flipping a switch, one minute being supportive of certain people and the next calling them things I couldn't even imagine five minutes before my blood started rising. I worked hard to learn how to take a breath, and realize when I am just going to dig my own grave. Gabe, with his mental issues and pressure from being such a big name, likely does not have that luxury. It will continue to hurt him until he realizes sometimes the best answer is just not to answer the flamers at all.
 
PatrThom

PatrThom

I would like to commend the general population of the Forum. We're 3+ pages in, and the (public) discussion is still remarkably civil and thoughtful.

--Patrick
 
DarkAudit

DarkAudit

PatrThom said:
I would like to commend the general population of the Forum. We're 3+ pages in, and the (public) discussion is still remarkably civil and thoughtful.

--Patrick
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Are you reading the same thread? Until Charlie ran away like he typically does, it was mostly him calling the rest of us bigots and racists. Like he typically does.
 
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