What does GWB's approval rating have to do with anything?
USA Federal government: CLOSED
- Thread starter strawman
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Considering that the majority of folks probably couldn't coherently tell you what was in the ACA or even know it's not actually called "Obamacare" I don't think we should put much stock in polls about that either way. If people hated it so bad they probably shouldn't have voted Obama in twice. I still hold to the belief that this is going to destroy the Republicans for at least the next election unless they get rid of the theocratic nutjobs they are allowing to run wild. People like Michelle Bachman shouldn't have this much power in a sane society.
Those theocratic nutjobs probably had a stronger hand in getting re-electing Obama than healthcare did.
Oh another favorite double talk since the Shutdown:
-Look at Obama, posturing with soldiers to try and create sympathy and further his cause, it's sick the way he's using them as emotional tools!-
3 seconds later
-If Boner and the GoP want to learn how to touch the American people, they should go and speak at the WW2 Memorial where the veterans are pushing their way through the barricades! Bachman herself, is down there helping them across!-
-Look at Obama, posturing with soldiers to try and create sympathy and further his cause, it's sick the way he's using them as emotional tools!-
3 seconds later
-If Boner and the GoP want to learn how to touch the American people, they should go and speak at the WW2 Memorial where the veterans are pushing their way through the barricades! Bachman herself, is down there helping them across!-
Obamacare is in effect now, the date has passed, so ... what's the hold-up for the GOP now? Revenge?
Also, I have a feeling I'll be using this image prominently a year from now:
Also, I have a feeling I'll be using this image prominently a year from now:
figmentPez
Staff member
The way some portions of the media spin it, you'd think Obamacare had been in effect since the 1990s.
That's sorta what I've been wondering as well.
I don't understand this statement. Are you assuming that a law, once passed, or once put into effect, cannot be undone?
Why would it now being in effect suddenly make them change their mind about whether it's a good or bad law?
Of course not, but to 'undo' something, they'd have to be in session and pass laws, right? They expected the Senate and the White House to blink when they threatened the shut down. They didn't, so now... what? What do they gain by being obstinate and keeping the government from doing what it is supposed to do- serve the people?
Necronic
Staff member
At lunch today I was talking with one of the more hardcore republicans I know (and this is at an oil company). He was thoroughly disgusted with the republican party.
If they DO succeed in overturning Obamacare by torpedoing the giovernment it's going to be the last thing they will do for a while. Their priorities are insane. They honestly think that Obamacare is basically the Russians on the beach-head. Nothing else matters. The real question is if they are insane enough to play with the debt ceiling as a bargaining tactic. They do that and they are donezo.
One argument he did make that actually made a bit of sense to me is that this whole thing is about destroying the Tea Party. If the "mainstream" republicans hadn't followed along with this they would be in for a Primary challenge, but if they DO go along with it they can blame the Tea Party for the fallout. Its a very dangerous game.
Anyways, I would love to be able to vote republican one day. I doubt I will though, party is run and supported by idiots. There's a reason you don't try to overturn legislation before the ink has dried.
Edit: The ONE reason I have always considered voting republican is economic reasons. Its one thing I think they get right, at least more right than the left. And this party, the one that I think of as "good with money" is considering playing chicken with the debt ceiling. You are going to see a lot of people like me abandon the republican party after our 401ks take a hit this fall.
If they DO succeed in overturning Obamacare by torpedoing the giovernment it's going to be the last thing they will do for a while. Their priorities are insane. They honestly think that Obamacare is basically the Russians on the beach-head. Nothing else matters. The real question is if they are insane enough to play with the debt ceiling as a bargaining tactic. They do that and they are donezo.
One argument he did make that actually made a bit of sense to me is that this whole thing is about destroying the Tea Party. If the "mainstream" republicans hadn't followed along with this they would be in for a Primary challenge, but if they DO go along with it they can blame the Tea Party for the fallout. Its a very dangerous game.
Anyways, I would love to be able to vote republican one day. I doubt I will though, party is run and supported by idiots. There's a reason you don't try to overturn legislation before the ink has dried.
Edit: The ONE reason I have always considered voting republican is economic reasons. Its one thing I think they get right, at least more right than the left. And this party, the one that I think of as "good with money" is considering playing chicken with the debt ceiling. You are going to see a lot of people like me abandon the republican party after our 401ks take a hit this fall.
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no no it's a slimdown lol
As a Wisconsinite, we feel horrible for thrusting Ryan in the spot light.
They are in session, and they are passing laws.
They hold the line until they do, or until they decide that the consequences of holding the line are worse than the consequences of allowing the healthcare law to continue.
They are serving their constituents by forcing the issue. The law was passed in a rush without public support in a completely partisan manner.
It's not supported by even half the country. Not by half of congress.
The ONLY hope the democrats have of keeping it is if they don't let it fall until it comes into enough effect that reversing it actively hurts people.
Right now getting rid of it hurts fewer people, but this is one of the last major milestones where a reversal isn't as painful.
So for those opposed to socialized healthcare, or simply opposed to this particular implementation of it, this is the best course of action.
Trying to get rid of it once people are covered under it will be nearly impossible.
So yes - both parties are still playing chicken, a game of political brinksmanship. One side because they believe in social healthcare, and they were willing to shut down the government to avoid confronting the fact that it's unpopular, and that the people's representatives want to reconfigure it. The other side because they believe it shouldn't be implemented, and they are willing to shut down the government to force the other side to confront the fact that the bill is unpopular, and that their constituents don't want it.
I do feel like the parties are acting like a couple of territorial kaiju slugging it out to see who gets control of the land, oblivious to the destruction and loss of life they are causing around them.
--Patrick
As pointed out above, this is unlikely to be true. The polls that are bothering to drill down into this question are showing a significant portion of those who are against the ACA want more social healthcare, they just don't think the ACA goes far enough.
While I agree with Espy and Necronic about how little the polls can really be trusted on an issue like this, as long as people keep saying that "Americans don't want socialized medicine" as if that's some damning counter-point, it's worth pointing out.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/obama_and_democrats_health_care_plan-1130.html
It doesn't matter why they're against it. If they think it should be trashed because it doesn't go far enough, if they think it should be trashed because it goes too far, if they think it should be trashed because it's the wrong kind of social healthcare, if they think it should be trashed because they don't want social healthcare.
"Oppose/against" means exactly that - they oppose it. They are against it.
They may not side with the republicans nor their plan or method, but in every poll Americans are clearly not in support of this law as it stands.
You can break it down all you want. This is the wrong law in the minds of over half the US population.
And using that fact as you just did to mischaracterize their views on social healthcare is still wrong.
I'm not saying a thing about social healthcare. I'm talking about this bill, and this bill alone.
They don't want it.
Period.
Yes, this bill is part of a social healthcare system, but I never said, "over half of Americans don't want social healthcare." I've only ever said that they don't want this bill.
Why is this so difficult to understand?
They don't want it.
Period.
Yes, this bill is part of a social healthcare system, but I never said, "over half of Americans don't want social healthcare." I've only ever said that they don't want this bill.
Why is this so difficult to understand?
I think the hardest part to grasp is that all those people don't want this bill. But they're not proposing an alternative. They're just saying, "No!" They're not calling out the bad parts, offering fixes, saying what they would do, showing why their version would be better, etc. "I don't like this one," is a measure of opinion, but without some form of useful feedback, it's like trying to give a kid spoon after spoon of pureed mush hoping you'll stumble on something he likes before he starves.
--Patrick
--Patrick
Necronic
Staff member
It's hard to understand because most people love many specific aspects of it. Shit, ROMNEY liked it, but quibbled over states rights.
Do you disagree with pre-existing conditions elimination?
Rescission regulations?
Do you want to stop the national Healthcare Database?
Even people that prefer a single payer system (a large part of your %) would prefer ACA to nothing. Which is what the right is offering. It's all they ever offer. I don't know why we elect people when we could just buy one of those bird things that pushes the button over and over.
IMHO, you really did not make it sound like that before, but I'm willing to toss this one to "internet mis-translation" since you've made yourself clear this time.
My bad.[DOUBLEPOST=1380768292,1380768031][/DOUBLEPOST]I think Necro hits it on the head here, and it also exemplifies what's wrong with the polling questions (or at least how the results are being represented).
There's very little indication in the pubic reports of the different polls that ask the "no's" why they're "no's" or what they would prefer in a "pick one" grid.
"I oppose the ACA in its current form because I think we can make it better and closer to single-payer and I would like Congress to make those adjustments first before it gets implemented"
and
"I oppose the ACA because it's socialized healthcare and socialized healthcare never actually works and will just result in worse care for everyone"
are pretty much diametrically opposed views, both in terms of their long-term goals and their actual intentions vis-a-vis the ACA.
Necronic
Staff member
Here's a better poll
http://kff.org/interactive/health-t...publics-views-on-the-affordable-care-act-aca/
So basically it's party lines with little to no change.
http://kff.org/interactive/health-t...publics-views-on-the-affordable-care-act-aca/
So basically it's party lines with little to no change.
GasBandit
Staff member
Hrm, according to that, under the Party ID, the independents noticably disfavor it.
That's kind of better, but if they did not ask follow-up questions to dive into answers, it's still only of limited value in informing the public of what "the public" thinks.
If the N-sizes end up too small if you try and break the reasons down, then they should increase the size of the total sample.
If the N-sizes end up too small if you try and break the reasons down, then they should increase the size of the total sample.
The poll means nothing. All it says is people don't like something called Obamacare or the Affordable Care Act. We've established that people have no idea what is in it or what it does. Now, what happens when you break down the bill into everything which people are going to get from it? Oh, that's right, they suddenly love it. Just don't call it Obamacare or the Affordable Care Act.
I will say this, the Republicans and their masters did a great job of demonizing it.
Necronic
Staff member
Yeah I guess it's better just in the numbers, the question is the same. But that's sort of the point. I mean here's a poll that says that only 37% of Americans oppose the ACA:
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2013/09/27/poll-obamacare-vs-affordable-care-act/
I could get a poll to say anything.
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2013/09/27/poll-obamacare-vs-affordable-care-act/
I could get a poll to say anything.
A large part of those that oppose the ACA don't actually oppose it? The poll questions are pretty clear and the results are pretty clear. The people who want more but don't oppose this bill are part of the less than fifty percent that don't oppose it.
The list of people who want something different is probably significantly greater than fifty percent. It could be that 90% of Americans want something changed about the bill. But only fewer than fifty percent don't oppose the bill.
But it seems very important to you to believe that the bill has popular support, and if interpreting the multitude of poll results that way is important to you, then who am I to deny you that comfort.
I thought this was an interesting piece
Chinese netizens react to US government shutdown and conclude the superiority of the US system
October 1, 2013, China’s National Day and also the day when the US federal government began systematically shutting down operations for the first time in nearly two decades. How the Chinese people, more specifically, Chinese social media users, react to the coincidence?
Many people’s first reaction is making jokes about the act being a way for the US government to honor the 64th birthday of the Chinese government. For example, netizen宇文馳 asked jokingly: “Do American people celebrate China National Day, too?” Another netizen 土豆怒了 pointed out: “What shutdown? It’s the US adopting our week-long National Day Holiday.”
These jokes, however, are more than carelss sarcasm. For a long time after 1949 when the current “new” China was founded, the US has been described as a primary ideology rival, if not enemy, in official rhetoric. Even today, it’s still not uncommon to see official media using the US as the comparison to emphasize why the political, economic and social systems in China work better and more efficiently.
The image of the US being the evil imperialist and capitalist country whereas China being the superior socialist country has gradually flipped in recent years as more and more Chinese people, especially the urban young, start to view the US as a role model worth looking up to. The US middle class lifestyle is what many of China’s nouveau riche aspire to.
Nevertheless, Chinese netizens didn’t hesitate a second to use the stereotypes to make fun of the current events.
In response to the shutdown news, one netizen 叶落如初 commented: “There is such a severe lack of ‘freedom’ and ‘democracy’ at this evil capitalist county.” Another netizen 樱桃肉丸子的冬天 commented: “The US government shuts down on China’s National Day, I feel like my world view has been put upside down. To beat the US – what we learned on Maoist Theory classes is no longer a day dream.”
Jokes aside, most people expressed disbelief. A government shutdown will never happen in China, at least not under CCP rule. Like in many other cases, Chinese netizens couldn’t help but ponder on what if the same thing happens in China. And the conclusion is that the US has a much better-functioning government. Why? Because the country runs normally even when government operations are shut down.
One netizen 怒一代 commented: “The system in the US is indeed superior. Their government can be shut down without causing any chaos in the society.”
Compare to a hypothetical similar scenario in China, the impact of a US federal government shutdown on the lives of its ordinary citizens can be said to be minimum. After all, as one netizen 段郎说事 commented: “The job of the US federal government is to serve, not to dictate.”
If the Chinese government shuts down, as one netizen 喵煮席爱大金链子 imaged, “the Chinese people won’t survive long.” Another netizen 西水东渐 chimed in: “The US government isn’t an omnipotent government. A shutdown won’t cause social unrest and instability. The Chinese government is an omnipotent government. A one-day shutdown would lead to a paralyzed society.”
Source
October 1, 2013, China’s National Day and also the day when the US federal government began systematically shutting down operations for the first time in nearly two decades. How the Chinese people, more specifically, Chinese social media users, react to the coincidence?
Many people’s first reaction is making jokes about the act being a way for the US government to honor the 64th birthday of the Chinese government. For example, netizen宇文馳 asked jokingly: “Do American people celebrate China National Day, too?” Another netizen 土豆怒了 pointed out: “What shutdown? It’s the US adopting our week-long National Day Holiday.”
These jokes, however, are more than carelss sarcasm. For a long time after 1949 when the current “new” China was founded, the US has been described as a primary ideology rival, if not enemy, in official rhetoric. Even today, it’s still not uncommon to see official media using the US as the comparison to emphasize why the political, economic and social systems in China work better and more efficiently.
The image of the US being the evil imperialist and capitalist country whereas China being the superior socialist country has gradually flipped in recent years as more and more Chinese people, especially the urban young, start to view the US as a role model worth looking up to. The US middle class lifestyle is what many of China’s nouveau riche aspire to.
Nevertheless, Chinese netizens didn’t hesitate a second to use the stereotypes to make fun of the current events.
In response to the shutdown news, one netizen 叶落如初 commented: “There is such a severe lack of ‘freedom’ and ‘democracy’ at this evil capitalist county.” Another netizen 樱桃肉丸子的冬天 commented: “The US government shuts down on China’s National Day, I feel like my world view has been put upside down. To beat the US – what we learned on Maoist Theory classes is no longer a day dream.”
Jokes aside, most people expressed disbelief. A government shutdown will never happen in China, at least not under CCP rule. Like in many other cases, Chinese netizens couldn’t help but ponder on what if the same thing happens in China. And the conclusion is that the US has a much better-functioning government. Why? Because the country runs normally even when government operations are shut down.
One netizen 怒一代 commented: “The system in the US is indeed superior. Their government can be shut down without causing any chaos in the society.”
Compare to a hypothetical similar scenario in China, the impact of a US federal government shutdown on the lives of its ordinary citizens can be said to be minimum. After all, as one netizen 段郎说事 commented: “The job of the US federal government is to serve, not to dictate.”
If the Chinese government shuts down, as one netizen 喵煮席爱大金链子 imaged, “the Chinese people won’t survive long.” Another netizen 西水东渐 chimed in: “The US government isn’t an omnipotent government. A shutdown won’t cause social unrest and instability. The Chinese government is an omnipotent government. A one-day shutdown would lead to a paralyzed society.”
“The US federal government shuts down. It’s a price of democracy check and balance. It will bring inconvenience to a lot of people, but I believe, between an inefficient government and a government without check and balance, most Americans will choose the former. This is the 18th times when the US federal government was shut down. No major social chaos occurred during the precious 17 times. A mature society can afford to have its government shut down.” Netizen 王冉 commented.
Source
Necronic
Staff member
Honestly I don't think the majority of people support the entire bill. But I think enough of them support enough of it, especially when they have the pieces explained.
I'll always stand by my early view that the biggest failure of the ACA was messaging. It was such a complex piece of legislation, possibly the most complex legislation package since the civil rights bill or medicaire/Medicaid.
This lack of information makes polling pretty worthless of you're sincere. If you just want to misuse polls it's a gold mine.
And I would love to hear more republicans complain abou price while they risk our credit rating with brinksmanship. Killing the ACA by risking our credit rating is like using a nuke to stop LA gang violence. The costs of the ACA pale in comparison to that.
I'll always stand by my early view that the biggest failure of the ACA was messaging. It was such a complex piece of legislation, possibly the most complex legislation package since the civil rights bill or medicaire/Medicaid.
This lack of information makes polling pretty worthless of you're sincere. If you just want to misuse polls it's a gold mine.
And I would love to hear more republicans complain abou price while they risk our credit rating with brinksmanship. Killing the ACA by risking our credit rating is like using a nuke to stop LA gang violence. The costs of the ACA pale in comparison to that.
Got a new one, it shows 100% of those polled were against Obamacare.
I asked my rats to go left if they were in favor and right if they were against, and then shook the Cheerio bag in my right hand. They both voted against.
I asked my rats to go left if they were in favor and right if they were against, and then shook the Cheerio bag in my right hand. They both voted against.
He's right.